RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acknowledging the problem is the first step in recovery. -Original Message- From: Michael Geier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 2:22 AM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Did you ever consider the fact that ASP, JSP and CF jobs are advertised more because their developers actually advertise? When was the last time you saw a commerical on TV for PHP? And yet, due to PHP's extensive development and interoperability, it is one of the highest installed packages on web servers? PHB's see the word 'FREE' and think 'bd' (obvious sheep reference) because that is what the Gates' and Ellison's have taught them to believe. Companies like MS and Oracle advertise during the Super Bowl and purchase news sites to tell you what they think you should know. Do they make a superior product because they advertise? Or just one that has a prettier ribbon on it? Blaming the PHP developers (commercial and otherwise) because you cannot get a job as a PHP developer is like blaming Schwinn because you can't get a job as a bike messenger. .m Quoting Acer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand and pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared to asp, jsp and cf developers. That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? (sorry for mine to you introduction) 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it this way. You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script that, perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, encode it and stick a it price to then sell the cat in a lot to those paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss does. The paranoids then make services we all here pay, and on our spare time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we like it this way). What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on managing positions if not job consultants. So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. Deal? Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM To: Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an encoder? To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people still won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't have made php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering php-general questions. My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion today. I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole thread, your only comment is That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding You'll never hear anything
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
First I don't know who Nick is, never meet him and just stumbled onto his
project. He created phpa (http://www.php-accelerator.co.uk) and is used by
yahoo. He has built the encoder (http://www.php-encoder.com) from his
experience in phpa so it being in beta or not is up to you to evaluate.
Now a correction. The minimum is $0.50 to encode. Obviously it wouldn't
make sense to encode per file since you could just put all your scripts in
one file so the encoding is based on the complete source size. As an
example (this is on his site), all of squirrelmail would of cost $25 to
encode and then you could sell as many times you want.
Now why would you encode? Rasmus thinks it's evil but I'm sure some of us
have been stiffed on projects. So it's a good protection since it allows
you to put into your program a check that the domain name is registered for
use by you. Something like:
if (domain_name is in my database_registration)
{
let them use the admin page
}
else
{
they get locked out
}
You can obviously add that into your programs now but by encoding your
program then no one can hunt it down in your source and erase it since it's
encoded. This is why I don't think encoders are evil (be it zend or
php-encoder) and just because you encode your project doesn't mean people
won't share their knowledge.
-Original Message-
From: Jason Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 5:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sunday 04 August 2002 15:53, David Freeman wrote:
Now that Nick has released the free
accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
might change but I don't know if it's too late.
Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
it?
$0.50 x 50 = $25.00
--
Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.com.hk
Open Source Software Systems Integrators
* Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development *
/*
To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy.
-- MIT Assasination Club
*/
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RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and accelerators. So far it really does feel like a bait and switch act since people develop in php thinking it's opensource and then when it's not performing up to par someone waves a flag to say Hey you could give me several thousand dollars and I'll make it work Wow Justin gets a lot of job offers so that means there are a ton of jobs for php developers. I feel better now. And thanks for reading my mind, there's like 3 of you on this list. Do you do partys? -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 3:09 AM To: Acer; php Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off. You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job, and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the argument is totally shallow. Zend is a commercial company, and has the right to charge what *they* perceive as market value for a product. You have the choice not to buy it, and you have the choice not to use PHP at all. There is no way you can blame Zend products for the fact you can't get a PHP job. I really laughed at this. The primary scripting languages asked for by job ads in my area are primarily ASP and Java. So what? Java is a well-established language, which has been around for ages. ASP (and other microsoft technologies) are backed by the biggest software company in the world. PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME that want me to use it. Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no insult intended): - your poor communication skills - your lack of any real programming experience - your lack of experience in the right projects / skills - you're not looking in the right places - you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh. I'm getting plenty of work. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear bad things about Microsoft on here. -Original Message- From: David Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 3:54 AM To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one, and only, post. this all started when rasmus had a problem with the click in my original post From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be accepted by anyone else. and i think i proved that if you are a member of the php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either. I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat. then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to develop an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same thing Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free (Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did. That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE, Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place. It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why _should_ Zend do anything in particular to develop a php market? So you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem? and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products for what they cost it would be $0.02. I'm not even sure what your point is here... so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial reality. it has been damaging to php is my point. Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php itself? Why? no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe, was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of employment. Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php? no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some say in what happens. after that is when all the little minions started acting tough so that the cool kids would like them better. Ummm, ok, whatever... here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it: --- There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. www.php-accelerator.co.uk OK, so don't pay for one. I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for one. It's your choice. The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing right
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and zend is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would be programmers to fill that void. Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No conflict of interest there. Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more then 1000 visitors? -Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 10:55 AM To: Acer Cc: Justin French; php Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Just a couple of facts: 1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in any way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot. 2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was really innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first place. An opinion: Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP, but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production environment, wouldn't you? And finally, another fact: There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing pretty darn well. Zeev At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote: Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and accelerators. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. www.php-accelerator.co.uk The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon. I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more affordable. http://www.php-encoder.com I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that money for php is the way I see it. You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but I don't know if it's too late. -Original Message- From: Dennis Moore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 10:58 AM To: Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Everyone understands that Zend has to eat, but so do most of us small developers. I have no problem with them charging for their products. IMO they would make more money if the pricing for the encoder would be less. This is a fundamental feature that most of us need. I would offer a Pro version of the Zend Studio and bundle the encoder with it for abou $500. This would enable Zend to capture a significant market share among PHP developers withoug breaking the bank. Just a thought... - Original Message - From: Andrey Hristov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding So... Is this equivalent to Zend Encoder? Not exactly, but in some aspects it is/will be better like the ability to generate executable standalone PHP programs that you can distribute independently. There is also the question of the price that for Zend Encoder is ridiculously expensive. The people for Zend have to eat to live. People, if there is no Zend there is no core for PHP. This is the same as with MySQL. MySQL is free under GPL but has no subselects because the companies that has commercial licenses didn't wanted that - Monty has to eat and he codes other features. IMO Zend must exist and this is only possible by selling its products. If the company we work for has the money to buy Zend Accelerator licenses why not do that instead of using other Open Source accelerators. I just want the people from Zend to continue their tremendous work and we will have PHP5 and PHP6 and so on otherwise start learning ASP or JSP. My 2 cents. Regards, Andrey -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole thread, your only comment is That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building php so something is not right. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Scott wrote: You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. Scott wrote: For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I was allowed to move my PHP code to production. So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good about making the right decision. That's great but how's that working? Is php becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a lot more jobs available so something isn't working. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay great let me change my opinion to php is being built by 600 people who do a lot of infighting. I feel much better. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:50 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding There are nearly 600 people with cvs commit access to cvs.php.net. Saying that Zend are the ones building PHP is a gross injustice to the majority of the people working on PHP. I have absolutely no relationship with Zend and I have built big chunks of PHP as have countless others with nothing to gain from Zend commercializing anything. Commercial interest in the PHP market is simple fact that comes from PHP's overwhelming success. It is a sign of the project's maturity and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. And if I had to choose between commercial interests also contributing to PHP itself vs. not contributing, I would much prefer them to contribute things. There are plenty of companies selling into the PHP space without contributing anything back to PHP. So, faulting Zend for having both commercial products and also contributing to PHP itself makes very little sense to me. Finally, you are arguing about commercial software pricing not matching the effort that goes into making it? C'mon, if all commercial software was priced simply to recoup development costs, then Windows should cost about 2 cents and Oracle about a dime. The bottom line is that there is no conspiracy here. The PHP Group is far from a tightknit group that agrees on everything. In fact we disagree on just about everything you can imagine and we are certainly not a group of people who sit around with nothing to do except help Zend make money. You will find if you poke around a little bit, several members, including myself, have helped projects that make free alternatives to various commercial products from Zend and other companies. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building php so something is not right. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an encoder? To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people still won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't have made php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering php-general questions. My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion today. I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole thread, your only comment is That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Sorry for bothering you, I didn't think I would hit a nerve. -Original Message- From: Danny Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 5:59 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding So, go write JSP for someone then and stop bugging us. - Original Message - From: Acer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Scott wrote: You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. Scott wrote: For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I was allowed to move my PHP code to production. So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good about making the right decision. That's great but how's that working? Is php becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a lot more jobs available so something isn't working. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you guys need to get your story right. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The people for Zend have to eat to live. And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
obviously if it's in beta then it's not as mature as zend's encoder. but if you think over time, it will get better and match zend so where does that leave php? zend would have a competing product that costs less so who would pay the several thousands of dollars for zend? zend will fold up shop and bye bye zend. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:50 PM To: Acer; Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 3:30 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building php so something is not right. Zend is a commercial company, and has a right to charge for a product. My guess is that the developers of the Zend engine (PHP) would also make the best developers of any other product (like an accelerator or encoder) that is associated with PHP. If someone is charging so little for the product (it is Beta, so I wouldn't use it anyway), then there is a good *chance* that it's a far less superior product. Let me ask you Acer, how much money do you make a week from developing PHP web applications with the free PHP scripting language? The $2000 doesn't seem like much in comparison, does it. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
you guys are the ones in denial and can't stand that someone is disagreeing with you. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 10:03 PM To: Acer; Danny Shepherd Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 8:01 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Sorry for bothering you, I didn't think I would hit a nerve. Didn't think you'd hit a nerve? You're complaining profusely about the price charged for a commercial product, and bagging the crap out of the developers, contributors and people who made PHP what it is. Commercial products are a case of supply and demand. Zend are offering a certain suite of products for a certain price. If you wish to obtain that product, you pay that price. If you don't feel the product is worth the asking price, search for an alternative. If you can find an alternative product which suits your needs (like a free/cheaper encoder, a different language like JSP or ASP, or whatever), then by all means go and buy that one instead, and leave this list in peace. I found a suit the other day which was a perfect fit, and looked great. problem was it was $1000. So rather than complaining to the sales assistant, I looked around and found a similar suit for about half the price, and settled on that, even though there are some quality differences. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
i actually pointed this out awhile ago that there will be a competing product for the encoder and accelerator so i didn't see a point in zend continuing to destroy php's chances. i am trying to discuss this normally but i guess you forgot that someone told me to bug off or the other guy that told me to f***k off. i guess you could define popular in different ways but how many people actually know what php is and what are the odds are getting someone to pay you to do php. those are my measures. -Original Message- From: Chris Shiflett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 11:18 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding 1. You complain about Zend charging for a product when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. 2. You support ColdFusion and ASP when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. The point is that you need better logic in your arguments before you will receive thoughtful answers. Your questions seem more like adolescent attacks, and your arguments have no merit. Thus, the responses you have received are similar to responses you will receive anywhere when your purpose appears to only be to pick a fight. If you ask intelligent questions or make intelligent arguments, people will assume you are an intelligent person and deserving of a thoughtful answer. As for PHP in the marketplace, I would argue that it is the most popular Web scripting language in the world with ColdFusion and JSP being close contenders and ASP being successful only because of the Microsoft believers (who are switching to PHP and others more because of the poor quality of IIS than the poor quality and non-portability of ASP). I make a very nice living programming in PHP, and most of the job offers I receive are for PHP, even though I have extensive experience in ColdFusion and other Web scripting languages (even ASP). But, you know what? No one cares. The people who contribute to PHP do so because they enjoy it. People like Rasmus enjoy it so much that they put up with adolescent crap on this list from time to time and even provide undeserving responses to useless drivel. You're not going to alter anyone's idea of PHP with baseless attacks. It's the same approach as politicians who try to attack their opponents; you just end up looking like a fool, and no one believes you anyway. People who like it will use it. People who don't won't. Now can we end the spam? Chris Acer wrote: Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand and pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared to asp, jsp and cf developers. That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
if you can't debate the issues then get out. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Give it up. We are tired of you. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you guys need to get your story right. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The people for Zend have to eat to live. And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again so why don't you give it up. BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of them are busily emailing each other saying oh what a jerk, we are doing a great job, don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good work! -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not our problem. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding if you can't debate the issues then get out. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Give it up. We are tired of you. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you guys need to get your story right. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The people for Zend have to eat to live. And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
the truth hurts sometimes. this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up and giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind. -Original Message- From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about this idiotic spamming subject. It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open source. Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for everybody to find the right place to ask for help. So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that was your own decision. Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul. -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again so why don't you give it up. BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of them are busily emailing each other saying oh what a jerk, we are doing a great job, don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good work! -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not our problem. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding if you can't debate the issues then get out. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Give it up. We are tired of you. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you guys need to get your story right. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: The people for Zend have to eat to live. And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
this all started when rasmus had a problem with the click in my original post and i think i proved that if you are a member of the php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to develop an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same thing and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products for what they cost it would be $0.02. so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. after that is when all the little minions started acting tough so that the cool kids would like them better. here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it: --- There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. www.php-accelerator.co.uk The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon. I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more affordable. http://www.php-encoder.com I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that money for php is the way I see it. You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but I don't know if it's too late. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 1:26 AM To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding It hurts no one. Believe me. Do what. Download PHP package and put it on sale. We'll let you do that by our license. Actually, yeah, here I go - YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW. 600 people worked hard on PHP for over several years and thousands of servers do us the real-life test. Just sell it. Will we get hurt? Ufff whata pain Maxim Maletsky -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:06 AM To: César Aracena; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding the truth hurts sometimes. this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up and giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind. -Original Message- From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about this idiotic spamming subject. It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open source. Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for everybody to find the right place to ask for help. So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that was your own decision. Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul. -Original Message- From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re
