Re: Hello from the bakery

[Abraham Palmer]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 1:46 AM Tomas Hlavaty 
wrote:

> On Mon 14 Aug 2023 at 09:05, Abraham Palmer 
> wrote:
> > I'm really a bread baker 
>
> its fascinating how much IT stuff one needs to know to run a bakery
>
You could run it without the IT of course - it's just an interest of mine.

>
> i like muffins but the link to picture of muffins is broken
> https://boxturtlebakery.com/products/culturedmuffins.jpg
>
> > my bakery in Python running against Google's Datastore database.
>
> do your customers know and agree with their info being given to google?
>
> Most of my customers really aren't tech savvy so wouldn't even stop to
consider it. Still I don't disagree and am trying to move off of it.

> but the churn of research languages is
> > just as bad with things breaking pretty much every year.
>
> PicoLisp has the same problems, there are many "variants" and it is hard
> to keep up.  That is why I am stuck with old 32 bit C variant.  But it
> still works very well.
>
> If you want something fossilized, try common lisp.
>
> > tried Elm. It is very nice, but one is still very much embedded in the
> > browser and JavaScript ecosystem and the churn of running things there
> > is too much for me.
>
> I thought Elm has stabilized now?
>
> Yes, Elm v0.19 has been very stable (too stable for some - they would like
more fixes and improvements) so it's the churn of the JavaScript ecosystem
and I found it really hard to just stay in the Elm walled garden.

> > I hope that that web approach of just using the browser for just the
> > UI will keep things working on old and changing browsers without all
> > the testing, polyfilling, etc.
>
> Why is this good in case of PicoLisp and not in case of Elm?
> Because you insist on doing the backend in the same language?
>
Yes, I think it will really help my productivity to just have one language
and set of dev tools. Elm does a good job of compiling down to a basic form
of JavaScript and browser DOM but by the time I have to talk to a server
with GraphQL or other APIs it has still become fairly complicated for my
taste. I'll see how it goes as I work slowly on it the rest of the year.
--Abraham

>
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>


-- 
http://boxturtlebakery.com
(919)357-6034
abra...@boxturtlebakery.com

Re: Hello from the bakery

[Tomas Hlavaty]

On Mon 14 Aug 2023 at 09:05, Abraham Palmer  wrote:
> I'm really a bread baker 

its fascinating how much IT stuff one needs to know to run a bakery

i like muffins but the link to picture of muffins is broken
https://boxturtlebakery.com/products/culturedmuffins.jpg

> my bakery in Python running against Google's Datastore database.

do your customers know and agree with their info being given to google?

> but the churn of research languages is
> just as bad with things breaking pretty much every year.

PicoLisp has the same problems, there are many "variants" and it is hard
to keep up.  That is why I am stuck with old 32 bit C variant.  But it
still works very well.

If you want something fossilized, try common lisp.

> tried Elm. It is very nice, but one is still very much embedded in the
> browser and JavaScript ecosystem and the churn of running things there
> is too much for me.

I thought Elm has stabilized now?

> I hope that that web approach of just using the browser for just the
> UI will keep things working on old and changing browsers without all
> the testing, polyfilling, etc.

Why is this good in case of PicoLisp and not in case of Elm?
Because you insist on doing the backend in the same language?

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Hello from the bakery

[r cs]

Yes, checking out from the
language-churn-that-adds-no-significant-value-for-me is a big win, because
picolisp is already a mature, people-like-you-proven language.  It also
does spectacularly well on the resource-usage/performance curve, with
multiple implementations to choose from.  It also uses a license that lets
me get my work done wherever I'm at.

My thanks and hats off to Alex for sharing his brilliant work, and the
community he has fostered that surrounds it!

Regards,
rcs

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 9:17 AM Abraham Palmer 
wrote:

> I don't know if people do introductions here, but I just wanted to say Hi

Hello from the bakery

[Abraham Palmer]

I don't know if people do introductions here, but I just wanted to say Hi.
I'm really a bread baker  but used to do IT
professionally and enjoy exploring ideas. I had written an application for
my bakery in Python running against Google's Datastore database. My
requirements change very little, but keeping up with the churn of
everything in that stack is very annoying. I tried Pharo and enjoyed the
Smalltalk development experience, but the churn of research languages is
just as bad with things breaking pretty much every year. I wanted to
explore functional and statically typed languages and tried Elm. It is very
nice, but one is still very much embedded in the browser and JavaScript
ecosystem and the churn of running things there is too much for me. Unison
is an interesting new language, but it is built on Haskell which is a very
research-oriented language and also still in active development. I also
thought that a peer-to-peer solution like Holochain would get me away from
the cloud providers, but I think things are just not ready yet. I also
don't want to pay for expensive hardware and full builds on Rust for the
Holochain apps didn't work on my 10-year-old laptop and took over an hour
on my newer desktop. I have an application to manage EV chargers running in
Factor (a Forth inspired language) and like it overall, but PicoLisp is
easier to build from scratch and has a much smaller runtime.
Similarly Clojure is a nice Lisp relative, but brings along the whole JVM
which doesn't add anything useful for me. I tried Guile Scheme and Janet
too and thought PicoLisp was simpler with better functionality for it's own
database, debugging, prolog functionality, and web-based applications. I
hope that that web approach of just using the browser for just the UI will
keep things working on old and changing browsers without all the testing,
polyfilling, etc.

My knowledge management is currently on logseq so I'd like to get that into
some form of PicoLisp so that I can have something of a literate
development environment. I don't want to go to emacs and org-mode so
something simpler. Then I'd want to do a couple of database apps with web
front-ends in addition to redoing my bakery application while extending it
with accounting using the Resource Event Agent model.

Thanks for the useful language and helpful documentation.
--Abraham Palmer