Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Henrik Sarvell]

I never came up with that DEAD headline and have no idea who did and
don't agree with it.

Let's take Clojure as an example again, no one in their right mind
would think that that language would have the adoption it has if it
wasn't based on Java with easy interoperability to get at all that
legacy Java code.

Having read the whole discussion so far maybe what is needed is a
simple REST web framework that can be easy to get up and running in
order to garner more interest.

That combined with some kind of general distributed database for the
new cloudy times!





On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Meadowlark technology
 wrote:
> * A message from one of the silent *
>
> I have just used Picolisp (PL) to write a tiny application that
> generates web sites from xml files.  It was great fun, and I use it in
> my business.  I am profoundly impressed with the power of the language.
>
> I agree that picolisp can he hard to follow when you look at coding
> examples, and more documentation is always good, but take a look at this
> if you struggle:
>
> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks
>
> It is a list of typical programming tasks and how to solve them in a
> range of languages.
>
> Surprisingly picolisp code solutions are numerous.  More so than more
> mainstream languages.  You might also note that the PL solutions are
> more succinct in most cases than other languages.
>
> Keep up the good work everyone.  It is much appreciated.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark Stephens
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2012-01-23 at 11:25 +1100, Konrad Zielinski wrote:
>> I have to disagree. Having a framework comes later. There are two
>> things that work against picolisp.
>>
>> 1. Lack of floating point numbers. Yes I know its a design decision
>> and yes I know its not likely to change. But it is a lack that does
>> put a lot of potential users off in the first five minutes, even if
>> the problem they are trying to solve right now does not neat flaoting
>> point numbers.
>>
>> 2. Lack of documentation. The langauge reference is terse and hard to
>> understand. Meanwhile what tutorials do exist only cover a small
>> faction of the langage. THis leaves it dificult to work out how most
>> of the language needs to be used. In particular the list manipulation
>> primites are just not adaquatly covered anywhere.
>>
>> This is the big one in my opinion. And having good documentation is
>> very much part of what made languages like Python and Ruby take off in
>> the first place. Python started life as a teching language so it had
>> doccumentation from the begining.
>>
>> This is about as far as I end up getting every time I have a foray
>> into using picoLisp. I love the language in theory, but Just can't do
>> anything with it in practice. Often I work at odd moments without an
>> internet connection and getting to the I can't find any way to do X
>> problem is likely to end with I'll do it in python, rather then a post
>> to mailing list.
>>
>> 3. Having a home grown database, rather then a clean binding to
>> various SQL backends is likewise problametic. For a commerical point
>> of view I would never be willing to recommend such a setup as it would
>> expose me to too much Risk.
>>
>> Eventually data loss will occure. and If you are the one who chose
>> this unproven technology without wide industry acceptence you are the
>> one who will get all the blame.
>>
>> regs
>>
>> Konrad
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Terry Palfrey
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jakob Eriksson 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Don't confuse the silence of the majority for consent, one way or another,
>> >> it's like politics. The most vocal proponents of any standpoint, are not
>> >> likely to represent any majority.  And I haven't even touched on the
>> >> possibility that the majority can be wrong. Right or wrong or correct
>> >> or useful is not decided in a popularity contest.
>> >
>> >
>> > In a world where all is (1's) and (0's) making the machine bow to your
>> > vision is a
>> > complex undertaking. You can use remote robotic constructions which are
>> > simply
>> > abstracted abstractions of a belief system or you can work more closely to
>> > what
>> > you are thinking of having happen. It doesn't matter what the world thinks
>> > or what
>> > the experts declare but it often has something to do with ego, bias and
>> > money.
>> >
>> > Lisp as written about across the net and through interviews and books comes
>> > with
>> > a guarantee, it is smaller code, faster development and more direct
>> > expression
>> > and now computing power has caught up but mindset lags.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> PicoLisp is old, but
>> >> PicoLisp in a sense is very new - in the area where I personally see most
>> >> potential (embedded in embedded hardware and embedded in programs), it has
>> >> had a proprietary friendly license only since 2010. On the server it
>> >> gained
>> >> a 64 bit port only in 2009 and for reference and research a Java v

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Meadowlark technology]

* A message from one of the silent *

I have just used Picolisp (PL) to write a tiny application that
generates web sites from xml files.  It was great fun, and I use it in
my business.  I am profoundly impressed with the power of the language.

I agree that picolisp can he hard to follow when you look at coding
examples, and more documentation is always good, but take a look at this
if you struggle:

http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks

It is a list of typical programming tasks and how to solve them in a
range of languages.

Surprisingly picolisp code solutions are numerous.  More so than more
mainstream languages.  You might also note that the PL solutions are
more succinct in most cases than other languages.

Keep up the good work everyone.  It is much appreciated.

Regards

Mark Stephens




On Mon, 2012-01-23 at 11:25 +1100, Konrad Zielinski wrote:
> I have to disagree. Having a framework comes later. There are two
> things that work against picolisp.
> 
> 1. Lack of floating point numbers. Yes I know its a design decision
> and yes I know its not likely to change. But it is a lack that does
> put a lot of potential users off in the first five minutes, even if
> the problem they are trying to solve right now does not neat flaoting
> point numbers.
> 
> 2. Lack of documentation. The langauge reference is terse and hard to
> understand. Meanwhile what tutorials do exist only cover a small
> faction of the langage. THis leaves it dificult to work out how most
> of the language needs to be used. In particular the list manipulation
> primites are just not adaquatly covered anywhere.
> 
> This is the big one in my opinion. And having good documentation is
> very much part of what made languages like Python and Ruby take off in
> the first place. Python started life as a teching language so it had
> doccumentation from the begining.
> 
> This is about as far as I end up getting every time I have a foray
> into using picoLisp. I love the language in theory, but Just can't do
> anything with it in practice. Often I work at odd moments without an
> internet connection and getting to the I can't find any way to do X
> problem is likely to end with I'll do it in python, rather then a post
> to mailing list.
> 
> 3. Having a home grown database, rather then a clean binding to
> various SQL backends is likewise problametic. For a commerical point
> of view I would never be willing to recommend such a setup as it would
> expose me to too much Risk.
> 
> Eventually data loss will occure. and If you are the one who chose
> this unproven technology without wide industry acceptence you are the
> one who will get all the blame.
> 
> regs
> 
> Konrad
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Terry Palfrey
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jakob Eriksson 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Don't confuse the silence of the majority for consent, one way or another,
> >> it's like politics. The most vocal proponents of any standpoint, are not
> >> likely to represent any majority.  And I haven't even touched on the
> >> possibility that the majority can be wrong. Right or wrong or correct
> >> or useful is not decided in a popularity contest.
> >
> >
> > In a world where all is (1's) and (0's) making the machine bow to your
> > vision is a
> > complex undertaking. You can use remote robotic constructions which are
> > simply
> > abstracted abstractions of a belief system or you can work more closely to
> > what
> > you are thinking of having happen. It doesn't matter what the world thinks
> > or what
> > the experts declare but it often has something to do with ego, bias and
> > money.
> >
> > Lisp as written about across the net and through interviews and books comes
> > with
> > a guarantee, it is smaller code, faster development and more direct
> > expression
> > and now computing power has caught up but mindset lags.
> >
> >>
> >> PicoLisp is old, but
> >> PicoLisp in a sense is very new - in the area where I personally see most
> >> potential (embedded in embedded hardware and embedded in programs), it has
> >> had a proprietary friendly license only since 2010. On the server it
> >> gained
> >> a 64 bit port only in 2009 and for reference and research a Java version
> >> 2010.
> >> Super easy library calling also came with the 64 bit version.
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps a look at what Perl, Ruby, Python et al did to become popular holds
> > the
> > clue to the logical step to promoting Picolisp to the  next level. Ruby got
> > RAILS
> > and things got all excited. Is there a framework that Picolisp could bolt on
> > that
> > would allow neat things to be experienced? A couple of web applications that
> > could promote its name? Little tools that could be linked into the framework
> > or
> > apps that people could use immediately like a blogger or display for
> > pictures for
> > those who don't use things like drupal or flickr or can take personal stored
> > material
> > and quickly make it go to 

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of)

[Tamas Herman]

I was also thinking why is it all caps…
looked like a hex number…
like DEADBEEF, DEADBABE DEADFISh, u know… ;)

--  
tom



On Tuesday, January 24, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Jon Kleiser wrote:

> On 1/22/12 8:42 AM, Alexander Burger wrote:
> > OK, I understand.
> >  
> > The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> > members in this list) is silent.
>  
>  
> DEAD?
> My interpretation is "Dream Environment for Advanced Developers". ;-)
> However, I hope we can leave this thread ... d-e-a-d.
>  
> /Jon
> --  
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe



--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jon Kleiser]

On 1/22/12 8:42 AM, Alexander Burger wrote:

OK, I understand.

The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
members in this list) is silent.

DEAD?
My interpretation is "Dream Environment for Advanced Developers". ;-)
However, I hope we can leave this thread ... d-e-a-d.

/Jon
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Doug,

> After many merry rounds of compilation and discovery, it seems that
> the ndk-build's compiler -falign-functions[=n] and friends align
> functions relative to this option, but off by one (+1, or is that just
> |1?).;-)

Weird indeed. Can't believe ;-)


> In pico.h, sadly, I besmirched the code thusly,
> 
> #ifdef ANDROID_ARM
> // android arm seems to have weird off-by-one alignment
> #define FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f) ((f)-1) // hopefully optimise to 
> #define LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN(f) ((f)+1) // a single  inc  ...
> #else
> #define FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f) (f)
> #define LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN(f) (f)
> #endif
> 
> #define evSubr(f,x) (*(fun)( LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN( num(f) ) & ~2 ) )(x)
> 
> so in boxSubr in main.c, 
> 
>if (num(FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f)) & 3)
>   giveup("Unaligned Function");
>return (any)(num(FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f)) | 2);
> 
> (Er, I bet I missed some places, need to check.)

Yes. Looks good. I would say taking care of boxSubr() and evSubr() are
enough.


Explanation for other readers: The bit fiddling is necessary because
MiniPicoLisp depends on having bit zero of a cell's CDR pointer free, to
use it as the GC mark bit.

In "mini/doc/structures" we see

  Primary data types:
 num  xx10
 ...

and

sym  sym
||
VV
  +-+-++-+-+
  |  |  | val || txt | val |
  +--+--+-++-+-+

'val' is assumed to _always_ have a zero in the least significant bit,
as this is used as the GC mark bit.

Decrementing the function pointer with FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN has that effect.
Without it, the first call to the garbage collector would crash the
interpreter, as all built-in functions would be dumped.

Cheers,
- Alex
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Doug Snead]

After many merry rounds of compilation and discovery, it seems that the 
ndk-build's compiler -falign-functions[=n] and friends align functions relative 
to this option, but off by one (+1, or is that just |1?).;-)

In pico.h, sadly, I besmirched the code thusly,

#ifdef ANDROID_ARM
// android arm seems to have weird off-by-one alignment
#define FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f) ((f)-1) // hopefully optimise to 
#define LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN(f) ((f)+1) // a single  inc  ...
#else
#define FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f) (f)
#define LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN(f) (f)
#endif

#define evSubr(f,x) (*(fun)( LISP2FUNCT_ALIGN( num(f) ) & ~2 ) )(x)

so in boxSubr in main.c, 

   if (num(FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f)) & 3)
  giveup("Unaligned Function");
   return (any)(num(FUNCT2LISP_ALIGN(f)) | 2);

(Er, I bet I missed some places, need to check.)

And then to talk with java I used the miniPicoLisp string-based library mods 
mentioned earlier, with a little jni C glue to hold it together. 

Cheers,

Doug


--- On Mon, 1/23/12, Jakob Eriksson  wrote:

> From: Jakob Eriksson 
> Subject: Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)
> To: picolisp@software-lab.de
> Date: Monday, January 23, 2012, 11:47 PM
> 
> 
> On January 24, 2012 at 7:49 AM Doug Snead 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I have a (slightly hacked) version of miniPicoLisp
> running as an android
> > native library as a proof of concept.  No no
> additional java interpretation
> > penalty.
>  
>  
> Wow, this is interesting!
>  
>  
> >
> > My thought is that now I have a new tool - a way to
> make picolisp and pilog
> > (prolog) work in android, but will do the UI in java
> like most android apps.
>  
>  
> That is how I plan to use (mini)PicoLisp in my program too.
>  
>  
>  
> >
> > But miniPicoLisp is pure, and easier to port.
>  
> Indeed, and for me the most interesting right now.
>  
> best regards,
> Jakob
>  
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jakob Eriksson]

On January 24, 2012 at 7:49 AM Doug Snead  wrote:

>
> I have a (slightly hacked) version of miniPicoLisp running as an android
> native library as a proof of concept.  No no additional java interpretation
> penalty.
 
 
Wow, this is interesting!
 
 
>
> My thought is that now I have a new tool - a way to make picolisp and pilog
> (prolog) work in android, but will do the UI in java like most android apps.
 
 
That is how I plan to use (mini)PicoLisp in my program too.
 
 
 
>
> But miniPicoLisp is pure, and easier to port.
 
Indeed, and for me the most interesting right now.
 
best regards,
Jakob
 
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Doug Snead]

--- On Mon, 1/23/12, Jakob Eriksson  wrote:
> The Java version opens up the path to Android jobs - and I
> have an impression that those are still a kind of Wild West. 

I have a (slightly hacked) version of miniPicoLisp running as an android native 
library as a proof of concept.  No no additional java interpretation penalty. 

The C-compiler (gcc?) for the ARM processor used in android ndk-build has odd 
ideas about function alignment that gave me a hard time until I saw what was 
happening. 

My thought is that now I have a new tool - a way to make picolisp and pilog 
(prolog) work in android, but will do the UI in java like most android apps. 

Not sure if porting the full PicoLisp to androig ndk jni would be easier or 
harder then the Cygwin port, say. The Cygwin port wasn't difficult ... 
until we discovered the Many Joys of Win32 file locking.  

But miniPicoLisp is pure, and easier to port. 

:-)

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jon Kleiser]

It seems I've exposed my PicoLisp ignorance again ... Most of the
functions in picoLisp/ersatz/lib.l, or possibly all except 'javac', are
quite well explained in the regular docs.

/Jon

>  Hi again,
>
>  There were two functions in the Image_Noise example that I should have
>  known better: 'javac' and 'task'.
>  Now I've found both of them in picoLisp/ersatz/lib.l, along with a
>  bunch of other functions that I'm sure would be nice to know. It
>  shouldn't be too hard to figure out what some of them are meant to do,
>  but for quite a few of them it could be useful (for me) with a line or
>  two of explanation. I understand that I cannot call myself a PicoLisp or
>  Ersatz expert unless I know these functions. ;-)
>
>  /Jon


-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jon Kleiser]

 Hi again,

 There were two functions in the Image_Noise example that I should have 
 known better: 'javac' and 'task'.
 Now I've found both of them in picoLisp/ersatz/lib.l, along with a 
 bunch of other functions that I'm sure would be nice to know. It 
 shouldn't be too hard to figure out what some of them are meant to do, 
 but for quite a few of them it could be useful (for me) with a line or 
 two of explanation. I understand that I cannot call myself a PicoLisp or 
 Ersatz expert unless I know these functions. ;-)

 /Jon

 On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:39:38 +0100, "Jon Kleiser" 
  wrote:
> Hi Alex,
>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>>>  thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend 
>>> existing
>>>  Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is
>>>  possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> Well, yes and no ;-)
>>
>> After all, why (again) re-invent the wheel, if all necessary 
>> mechanisms
>> of Java are there already?
>
> I guess I must have overlooked something ... ;-)
>
>> ErsatzLisp comes with a mechanism to call "native" inline Java, much 
>> the
>> same way as the other PicoLisp versions do with inline C.
>>
>> This is done via the 'javac' function. An example can be found in
>>
>>http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Image_Noise#PicoLisp
>>
>> Cheers,
>> - Alex
>
> I see! I wasn't aware of that powerful 'javac' function. Maybe you 
> should
> mention it here:
> 
>
> Thanks for this very useful info! I'll start using it quite soon.
>
> /Jon

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jakob Eriksson]

On January 23, 2012 at 2:02 PM Jon Kleiser  wrote:

>
>  I like having the possibility to make use of Java solutions (e.g. the
>  Swing GUI) from Ersatz PicoLisp, but please don't tell anyone that "it
>  allows you to integrate with any legacy system" before we have done any
>  such integration at all! Feel free to give us an example. ;-)
 
 
I have not. I meant, that this is a possible direction to get more jobs.
 
 
> > I have until now ignored the state of the art with regards to the
> > Java
> > flavor of PicoLisp, but when reading about your job peril, I take
> > more
> > interest in it, since I have found that the "Java" word opens doors.
> > In this case it actually is a blessing that that "Java" is such an
> > ambiguous word  -  is it "Java"?  Yes, it runs on the Java runtime.
> > Check.
>
>  Do we really want to "sell" PicoLisp that way?
 
Why not?  Really, marketing is about getting attention. Attention span
is short. I think they will be glad to discover that PicoLisp is so
much more than just a "Java appendage" like so many other languages.
 
What a happy surprise if Groovy, Clojure, Ceylon, Coldfusion, Joy,
and Scala all had standalone runtimes independent of any JVM!
 
But PicoLisp does!
 
 
>  How quickly do you think you could get an Ersatz PicoLisp based Android
>  app out? And how would that dev. time compare to what it would take to
>  write a similar app in plain old Java?
 
 
Again - I did not mean to misrepresent anything. That would take me some
time, for sure. But I would imagine if A. Burger made one app like that,
the second would be way faster. Possibly it would not even entail a
recompile... :-)
 
>  If Ersatz PicoLisp should be fit for writing the stuff that you're
>  thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend existing
>  Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is
>  possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong.
 
I don't know these things... but it could gain those capabilities,
nothing in PicoLisp inherently stops it. 
 
Or add PicoLisp to the list of languages supported by ASE:
http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
 
 
I am trying to brainstorm ways for people (Burger) to make a living
with PicoLisp as a tool.
 
 
best regards,
Jakob
 
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Imran Rafique]

On 23 January 2012 13:02, Jon Kleiser  wrote:

>  On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:57:54 +0100 (CET), Jakob Eriksson
>   wrote:
> > interest in it, since I have found that the "Java" word opens doors.
> > In this case it actually is a blessing that that "Java" is such an
> > ambiguous word  -  is it "Java"?  Yes, it runs on the Java runtime.
> > Check.
>
>  Do we really want to "sell" PicoLisp that way?


Funnily enough, this exact topic came up in clojure circles a couple of
years ago, and the semi-serious response to "How do we get Clojure accepted
in Java-only shops?" was:

"Tell them Clojure is a concurrency lib for Java."

Two cheers for lateral thinking :) I don't know if anyone actually got away
with that, though !

-- 
Regards,
   Imran Rafique

(skype: imran_rafique)

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jon Kleiser]

Hi Alex,

> Hi Jon,
>
>>  thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend existing
>>  Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is
>>  possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong.
>
> Well, yes and no ;-)
>
> After all, why (again) re-invent the wheel, if all necessary mechanisms
> of Java are there already?

I guess I must have overlooked something ... ;-)

> ErsatzLisp comes with a mechanism to call "native" inline Java, much the
> same way as the other PicoLisp versions do with inline C.
>
> This is done via the 'javac' function. An example can be found in
>
>http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Image_Noise#PicoLisp
>
> Cheers,
> - Alex

I see! I wasn't aware of that powerful 'javac' function. Maybe you should
mention it here:


Thanks for this very useful info! I'll start using it quite soon.

/Jon

-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Jon,

>  thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend existing 
>  Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is 
>  possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong.

Well, yes and no ;-)

After all, why (again) re-invent the wheel, if all necessary mechanisms
of Java are there already?

ErsatzLisp comes with a mechanism to call "native" inline Java, much the
same way as the other PicoLisp versions do with inline C.

This is done via the 'javac' function. An example can be found in

   http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Image_Noise#PicoLisp

Cheers,
- Alex
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jon Kleiser]

 On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:57:54 +0100 (CET), Jakob Eriksson 
  wrote:
 ...
> Today it's Java. The PicoLisp Java is actually cool in that it allows
> you to integrate with any legacy system the customer might have in 
> Java.

 I like having the possibility to make use of Java solutions (e.g. the 
 Swing GUI) from Ersatz PicoLisp, but please don't tell anyone that "it 
 allows you to integrate with any legacy system" before we have done any 
 such integration at all! Feel free to give us an example. ;-)

> Also runtime performance is hardly an issue, given the popularity of
> languages such as Groovy, which is really slow compared to 
> alternatives.
>  
> I have until now ignored the state of the art with regards to the 
> Java
> flavor of PicoLisp, but when reading about your job peril, I take 
> more
> interest in it, since I have found that the "Java" word opens doors.
> In this case it actually is a blessing that that "Java" is such an
> ambiguous word  -  is it "Java"?  Yes, it runs on the Java runtime.
> Check.

 Do we really want to "sell" PicoLisp that way?

> The Java version opens up the path to Android jobs - and I have an
> impression that those are still a kind of Wild West. The customer 
> there
> often cares very little about which tech is used - getting an app out
> quick is often what matters most.

 How quickly do you think you could get an Ersatz PicoLisp based Android 
 app out? And how would that dev. time compare to what it would take to 
 write a similar app in plain old Java?

> best regards,
> Jakob

 If Ersatz PicoLisp should be fit for writing the stuff that you're 
 thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend existing 
 Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is 
 possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong.

 /Jon
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Imran Rafique]

As a lurker who has just started looking at picolisp, I'm a little hesitant
to contribute to this thread.

I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective I think than some
other users. This isn't my 1st (nor 2nd, or even 3rd) lisp. What attracted
me to take a look at picolisp?

+ Fully integrated database.
+ Ajax-enabled Web framework

Seriously, thats pretty interesting stuff.

Dynamic binding? Ok, I'll admit I'm not a fan (scheme!). Using transient
symbols as variables? But the new (symbols) namespaces should make dynamic
binding liveable :)

Purely interpreted? So I have some prejudices to overcome on this score
(spoiled by chicken scheme & racket, eg)

I think the one thing which does bother me though, is the lack of a
separate macro-expansion phase. Sure, fexpr's give you what macro's do, at
runtime.

But one of the key things which make me feel comfortable in any lisp is the
knowledge that I can effectively re-arrange the syntax of certain operation
sequences to forms that I prefer.

In other words, the longer one spends in a particular lisp environment, the
more you customise that environment to make it more "yours". And pretty
soon, the differences between it, and other lisp implementations you use
heavily become abstracted away.

Once you get used to this feeling of *freedom*, its really hard to give it
up. And honestly, I think this is one key lisp'ism which picolisp lacks.

Because there is no separate macro-expansion phase, any "macros" which
involve non-trivial re-arrangement of syntax become more burdensome to do -
because you're painfully aware that you are going to be paying the cost for
it at runtime - every time.

Which means that one tends to settle for the (for want of a better word)
idioms/methods that picolisp provides 'as is'.

Picolisp is something which you have built over the years to solve your
problems, in the way you want them solved. Which is great. But also, very
personal and idiosyncratic idioms tend to creep in (eg: the strong
preference for building lists dynamically, and not having any
quasiquote-like templates)

I hope this doesn't read as a criticism of any particular style (apologies,
if thats what it seems like). Its just that, any ONE style will not fit all.

Is this a change which would significantly increase complexity? Honestly, I
don't think so. Its just re-writing code, picolisp -> picolisp (once, at
definitiion time, instead of every time the code is invoked)

Picolisp does deserve more positive press for some of the really
interesting things it *DOES* have. For that, you need more folks to use
picolisp on real stuff. Simple examples with real code.

Allowing them to bend picolisp to *their* personal tastes would help to
attract them.

-- 
Regards,
   Imran Rafique


On 23 January 2012 00:58, Alexander Burger  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> many thanks for all your replies!
>
> First of all, I must apologize. I did not want to blame the community.
>
> But, on the other hand, Henrik is right. Though I don't agree with his
> original argument about the lack of libraries, PicoLisp is indeed dead
> at least in one important way. My personal survival depends on PicoLisp
> -- not so much on how it is liked by programmers, but on how it is
> accepted by potential customers (for project work). Spreading the news
> that PicoLisp can't be used because there are no libraries is quite
> devastating, but also without that, acceptance for project work didn't
> improve during the ten years since PicoLisp went public.
>
> Please don't worry about the future of the language itself. I will
> continue to develop and use it in my own projects as before. But I must
> invest more time into my own economic survival.
>
> Again, many many thanks!
>
> Cheers,
> - Alex
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jakob Eriksson]

On January 23, 2012 at 9:58 AM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> accepted by potential customers (for project work). Spreading the news
> that PicoLisp can't be used because there are no libraries is quite
> devastating, but also without that, acceptance for project work didn't
> improve during the ten years since PicoLisp went public.
 
 
Maybe there is room to do as so many other do and hijack the popularity of
Java? It's like a checkbox. In the olden days it was "POSIX". Is it POSIX?
Yes? Check.  (Windows NT was POSIX, but not in any meaningful way. It
allowed people to buy Windows instead of Unix though and then merrily
ignore the POSIX subsystem in actual development.)
 
Today it's Java. The PicoLisp Java is actually cool in that it allows
you to integrate with any legacy system the customer might have in Java.
Also runtime performance is hardly an issue, given the popularity of
languages such as Groovy, which is really slow compared to alternatives.
 
I have until now ignored the state of the art with regards to the Java
flavor of PicoLisp, but when reading about your job peril, I take more
interest in it, since I have found that the "Java" word opens doors.
In this case it actually is a blessing that that "Java" is such an
ambiguous word  -  is it "Java"?  Yes, it runs on the Java runtime.
Check.
 
The Java version opens up the path to Android jobs - and I have an
impression that those are still a kind of Wild West. The customer there
often cares very little about which tech is used - getting an app out
quick is often what matters most.
 
 
best regards,
Jakob
 
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Alexander Burger]

Hi all,

many thanks for all your replies!

First of all, I must apologize. I did not want to blame the community.

But, on the other hand, Henrik is right. Though I don't agree with his
original argument about the lack of libraries, PicoLisp is indeed dead
at least in one important way. My personal survival depends on PicoLisp
-- not so much on how it is liked by programmers, but on how it is
accepted by potential customers (for project work). Spreading the news
that PicoLisp can't be used because there are no libraries is quite
devastating, but also without that, acceptance for project work didn't
improve during the ten years since PicoLisp went public.

Please don't worry about the future of the language itself. I will
continue to develop and use it in my own projects as before. But I must
invest more time into my own economic survival.

Again, many many thanks!

Cheers,
- Alex
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[José Romero]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:58:19 -0200
Jeronimo Pellegrini  wrote:

> You may count me as silent but very happy with PicoLisp!
> 
> I use it mostly for automating tasks in Unix systems (particularly
> fun in small devices running Linux).
> 
> J.
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 08:42:38AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
> > OK, I understand.
> > 
> > The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count
> > 70 members in this list) is silent.
> > -- 
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

That's most of my use case too, Picolisp is a great language for
automation, it's simple I/O functions, with forks and pipes are just
great for interacting with old school Unix tools.

-- 
José
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Yiorgos Adamopoulos]

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Jeronimo Pellegrini
 wrote:
> I use it mostly for automating tasks in Unix systems (particularly
> fun in small devices running Linux).

Likewise!  I am a system administrator. I first thought of Lisp as a
suitable language when the White Glove Linux distributions from
www.all.net included a Lisp interpreter, mostly for those who wanted
to do weird socket stuff from a command line.

Then came a 2600 issue that had an article on newLISP, and I came
across PicoLisp because of a post in lambda-the-ultimate. So I use it
for small stuff too and am in the process of developing a more serious
internal project with it (people who hate LDAP reinvent it using their
favorite programming language)..

Granted, the typical system administrator / postmaster has not read
SICP, nor do they fancy Prolog, but then again many use Emacs and I do
not.
-- 
http://gr.linkedin.com/in/yiorgos
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[cle-picolisp]

Alexander Burger schrieb:
> OK, I understand.
> 
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.

Oh oh ...

Alex, your conclusion is not necessary true. If most are silent that has
not to mean, they conclude with Henrik. At least me, if I do not like
something, or I am feeling it is dead, I will unsubscribe.

The lack of libraries may be a problem from time to time, but PicoLisp
has also to offer a lot, like its DB with Pilog, its Web-Framework, its
simplicity.

Often people need a language that allow for quick and dirty development.
So lacking a library could be a show-stopper for them, as they are not
willing to spend time to develop what they need. They want to throw
together basic components to build a new app they can use. Perhaps for
them, PicoLisp is not an alternative.

But if you want to develop a coherent, portable app, with storage backed
up by a DB with an elegant query language (Pilog) that does not need
much resources -- PicoLisp may count in!

I am interested in PicoLisp as you know. I've tried to use it for my
in-house project. Unfortunately I couldn't not, not cause by lacking any
library, but as my co-workers do not know Lisp and are very reluctant to
learn yet another language beside C++, Java and Ruby used for most of
our tools.

So this may be another reason -- PicoLisp is a Lisp. You know, that
language with a lot of silly parentheses ... ;-)

Anyway, happy new year and please keep up with your nice language. It is
not mainstream, but it has its place!!!

Ciao,
chi.
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jeronimo Pellegrini]

You may count me as silent but very happy with PicoLisp!

I use it mostly for automating tasks in Unix systems (particularly
fun in small devices running Linux).

J.


On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 08:42:38AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote:
> OK, I understand.
> 
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.
> -- 
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Konrad Zielinski]

I have to disagree. Having a framework comes later. There are two
things that work against picolisp.

1. Lack of floating point numbers. Yes I know its a design decision
and yes I know its not likely to change. But it is a lack that does
put a lot of potential users off in the first five minutes, even if
the problem they are trying to solve right now does not neat flaoting
point numbers.

2. Lack of documentation. The langauge reference is terse and hard to
understand. Meanwhile what tutorials do exist only cover a small
faction of the langage. THis leaves it dificult to work out how most
of the language needs to be used. In particular the list manipulation
primites are just not adaquatly covered anywhere.

This is the big one in my opinion. And having good documentation is
very much part of what made languages like Python and Ruby take off in
the first place. Python started life as a teching language so it had
doccumentation from the begining.

This is about as far as I end up getting every time I have a foray
into using picoLisp. I love the language in theory, but Just can't do
anything with it in practice. Often I work at odd moments without an
internet connection and getting to the I can't find any way to do X
problem is likely to end with I'll do it in python, rather then a post
to mailing list.

3. Having a home grown database, rather then a clean binding to
various SQL backends is likewise problametic. For a commerical point
of view I would never be willing to recommend such a setup as it would
expose me to too much Risk.

Eventually data loss will occure. and If you are the one who chose
this unproven technology without wide industry acceptence you are the
one who will get all the blame.

regs

Konrad



On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Terry Palfrey
 wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jakob Eriksson 
> wrote:
>
>> Don't confuse the silence of the majority for consent, one way or another,
>> it's like politics. The most vocal proponents of any standpoint, are not
>> likely to represent any majority.  And I haven't even touched on the
>> possibility that the majority can be wrong. Right or wrong or correct
>> or useful is not decided in a popularity contest.
>
>
> In a world where all is (1's) and (0's) making the machine bow to your
> vision is a
> complex undertaking. You can use remote robotic constructions which are
> simply
> abstracted abstractions of a belief system or you can work more closely to
> what
> you are thinking of having happen. It doesn't matter what the world thinks
> or what
> the experts declare but it often has something to do with ego, bias and
> money.
>
> Lisp as written about across the net and through interviews and books comes
> with
> a guarantee, it is smaller code, faster development and more direct
> expression
> and now computing power has caught up but mindset lags.
>
>>
>> PicoLisp is old, but
>> PicoLisp in a sense is very new - in the area where I personally see most
>> potential (embedded in embedded hardware and embedded in programs), it has
>> had a proprietary friendly license only since 2010. On the server it
>> gained
>> a 64 bit port only in 2009 and for reference and research a Java version
>> 2010.
>> Super easy library calling also came with the 64 bit version.
>
>
>
> Perhaps a look at what Perl, Ruby, Python et al did to become popular holds
> the
> clue to the logical step to promoting Picolisp to the  next level. Ruby got
> RAILS
> and things got all excited. Is there a framework that Picolisp could bolt on
> that
> would allow neat things to be experienced? A couple of web applications that
> could promote its name? Little tools that could be linked into the framework
> or
> apps that people could use immediately like a blogger or display for
> pictures for
> those who don't use things like drupal or flickr or can take personal stored
> material
> and quickly make it go to those places with automagic logins and uploads?
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Terry
>
>
>>



-- 
read my mind at: http://the-willows.blogspot.com/
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Terry Palfrey]

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:

Don't confuse the silence of the majority for consent, one way or another,
> it's like politics. The most vocal proponents of any standpoint, are not
> likely to represent any majority.  And I haven't even touched on the
> possibility that the majority can be wrong. Right or wrong or correct
> or useful is not decided in a popularity contest.
>

In a world where all is (1's) and (0's) making the machine bow to your
vision is a
complex undertaking. You can use remote robotic constructions which are
simply
abstracted abstractions of a belief system or you can work more closely to
what
you are thinking of having happen. It doesn't matter what the world thinks
or what
the experts declare but it often has something to do with ego, bias and
money.

Lisp as written about across the net and through interviews and books comes
with
a guarantee, it is smaller code, faster development and more direct
expression
and now computing power has caught up but mindset lags.


> PicoLisp is old, but
> PicoLisp in a sense is very new - in the area where I personally see most
> potential (embedded in embedded hardware and embedded in programs), it has
> had a proprietary friendly license only since 2010. On the server it gained
> a 64 bit port only in 2009 and for reference and research a Java version
> 2010.
> Super easy library calling also came with the 64 bit version.
>


Perhaps a look at what Perl, Ruby, Python et al did to become popular holds
the
clue to the logical step to promoting Picolisp to the  next level. Ruby got
RAILS
and things got all excited. Is there a framework that Picolisp could bolt
on that
would allow neat things to be experienced? A couple of web applications that
could promote its name? Little tools that could be linked into the
framework or
apps that people could use immediately like a blogger or display for
pictures for
those who don't use things like drupal or flickr or can take personal
stored material
and quickly make it go to those places with automagic logins and uploads?

Just some thoughts.

Terry



>

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Peter Fischer]

Am 22.01.2012 08:42, schrieb Alexander Burger:

OK, I understand.

The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
members in this list) is silent.

Hi Alexander!

Hm, for an April 1st joke it is too early!?
Bad mood day due to ugly wet weather in upper bavaria? ;)
Mailing list echo test on a sunday? :)

Everyone has a low from time to time. Breaks help a lot. Had a walk with 
the raincoat today afternoon, what a great experience!


And for Picolisp:
After a long work-related hiatus, at xmas I finally found time again to 
work on my learn-something-and-get-back-something-useful side project. 
And I chose PL for tinkering, *because* it is not (over?)loaded like 
other lisp implementations (which can scare beginners because of their 
sheer size).


Peter

P.S.: If you really wanted to throw the towel, *please* consider putting 
the source on github or one of the other bigger SCM sites.

But I'd like to see the project go on :) .

P.P.S.: in the next few days, this email address will unsubscribe - 
"spring cleaning"/new years resolution to get rid of data leeches. The 
human behind the address will read on!


--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Rudy Hagedorn]

Hello.

I am new to PL.

I come from trying out lots of library paradises where you need to load
>100MB of background noise into RAM to print 'hello world' on the screen.

My aim is to learn and use lisp for smart & small data base driven
applications within a little browser window.

Yesterday I started with the excellent App Tutorial by Alexander Burger and
had 2 terminal windows open, one with w3m -  it works :-)
And I was able to scroll through all the libs and .l files and with a
little effort follow what was going on and why it was happening.
Man, was I happy.

Not sure if this helps - but I wanted to avoid to be 'silent' ;-)

By the way, anyone using PL for graphDB similar tasks?

Best,
Rudy



On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Alexander Burger wrote:

> OK, I understand.
>
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.
>
>

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Jakob Eriksson]

On January 22, 2012 at 8:42 AM Alexander Burger  wrote:

> OK, I understand.
>
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.
 
 
To me it's very useful and interesting, or I would not have spent so much
time making miniPicoLisp work for my program on 4 different operating
systems. I am convinced this will pay off in reduced development time
for me, even though it meant a slower start vs just continue writing
it all in C or C++.   
 
Don't confuse the silence of the majority for consent, one way or another,
it's like politics. The most vocal proponents of any standpoint, are not
likely to represent any majority.  And I haven't even touched on the
possibility that the majority can be wrong. Right or wrong or correct
or useful is not decided in a popularity contest.   
 
PicoLisp is old, but 
PicoLisp in a sense is very new - in the area where I personally see most
potential (embedded in embedded hardware and embedded in programs), it has
had a proprietary friendly license only since 2010. On the server it gained
a 64 bit port only in 2009 and for reference and research a Java version 2010.
Super easy library calling also came with the 64 bit version. 
 
Given these parameters, I think PicoLisp has come a long way in a short time.
 
I have more thoughts, but I don't want to dilute my main message. 
 
best regards,
Jakob
--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of)

[Tamas Herman]

im also checking back from time to time.
there is a lot to learn from PL.
im a long time anti-complexity fan too.
i was expressing this attitude of mine in SHell scripts and Rebol so far,
but since Rebol has started rotting, im looking for alternatives.
(by rotting, i mean the graphical version Rebol throws weird lowlevel message 
on the console since snow leopard and we are waiting for antialiased font 
support for it under mac for 3-4yrs now, while the windows and linux versions 
have it… and the core author's blog is silent for more than a year now…)
http://red-lang.org is a nice alternative but it's just a baby 
toolkit/environment/language yet,
which leave me with PicoLisp as the only choice,
although im coding in NodeJS and AngularJS after Ruby for living…

im following the progress of http://web.syllable.org/pages/index.html and 
http://menuetos.net/ which are OS made in the same spirit.
i want to understand all those things im using during programming and i think 
it's very possible actually throughout a lifetime, because there were examples 
of such complete systems exist before! think about lisp machines or even the 
"4th Forth by Febert Csaba" forth implementation i was using to learn 
programming on a zx spectrum…

last year i heard a story from barry shein (founder of http://world.std.com) 
about why did the postscript based NeWS system died and the pie menus together 
with it. 1 small reason was improper sandboxing, but the major reason was 
politics and money and thats how sun unix-es won the universities over… with a 
different and a bit deceptive pricing model. also the boot time was great, 
however u had to reboot those unix machines regularly as opposed to those NeXT 
systems which ran NeWS. or something like that (sorry, barry if i remember 
inaccurately :)

i see more an more convergence back to these simpler systems.
html5 canvas can do things now what rebol could already do in 2000.
angularjs is shrinking their library while alleviates the need for a lot of 
code u have to write in other framework (and think about shrinking by 1/2 to 
2/3!)
another less know example is the proprietary OS of the mediatek phone chips. 
it's a realtime multitasking OS with no networking libs, etc, so it's 300kB if 
compiled, but it allowed the mediatek guys to silently start to dominate the 
indian and chinese low price tag phone market which providing 8Mpixel camera, 
3G internet, external keyboard, 320x340 display for ~120usd in the past ~3-4 
years, iirc.

i see the raising a secondary internet infrastructure too. not sure about the 
timeframe, but i think it will go common knowledge how to cover an area with 
robust wifi cheap from everyday materials 
(http://www.oreillynetcom/cs/weblog/view/wlg/448 and 
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/448), low power consumption 
computers (http://www.raspberrypi.org/) and distributed communication and 
infrastructure applications (https://joindiaspora.com/ , http://status.net/ , 
http://freenetproject.org/ and http://unhosted.org/) to make them work reliably 
and make sure their maintenance is affordable to learn and development can 
maintain a pace, they have to be simpler than today...

--  
tom



On Sunday, January 22, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Yiorgos Adamopoulos wrote:

> No it is not dead to me. At least I do not want it dead. But in online 
> communities the1-9-90 rule applies:
>  
> 1% is the major contributors
> 9% are contributing from time to time
> 90% are mostly silent (like me)
>  
> With 70 people on the list the numbers seem appropriate.
>  
> FWIW, I like PicoLisp the way it is, small and with "lack" of libraries.
>  
> On Sunday, January 22, 2012, Alexander Burger  (mailto:a...@software-lab.de)> wrote:
> > OK, I understand.
> >  
> > The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> > members in this list) is silent.
> > --
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>  
>  
> --  
> http://gr.linkedin.com/in/yiorgos



--
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Yiorgos Adamopoulos]

No it is not dead to me. At least I do not want it dead. But in online
communities the1-9-90 rule applies:

1% is the major contributors
9% are contributing from time to time
90% are mostly silent (like me)

With 70 people on the list the numbers seem appropriate.

FWIW, I like PicoLisp the way it is, small and with "lack" of libraries.

On Sunday, January 22, 2012, Alexander Burger  wrote:
> OK, I understand.
>
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

-- 
http://gr.linkedin.com/in/yiorgos

Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)

[Randall Dow]

I have to agree with Alex here. This language has its place and is very
useful in that place. I am currently doing embedded in C, and have no
choice about what to use. But I have to say, I in very much in favor of
the succinctness of PicoLisp and its ability to link with any library.
If someone, Henrik, wants to use something else that is great, if you,
Henrik, want to enhance PicoLisp with distributed databases, that would
be great, too. I don't find any problems with PicoLisp, for what it is
intended. 

Keep going Alex! And Happy Birthday!
-- 
Rand



On Sun, Jan 22, 2012, at 08:42 AM, Alexander Burger wrote:
> OK, I understand.
> 
> The language is not useful or usable, and the "Community" (I count 70
> members in this list) is silent.
> -- 
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
> 
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe