Re: Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: Also what exactly does suck about it? The problems with the non natural layouts are various, e.g.: * windows might get too small as all windows have same size I believe that's not really a problem, see the screenshot I posted above with 16 windows. I have no data for this claim, but I don't think that many people actually have more than 10 windows opened at once? And there's the label. I actually find the windows in Natural to be sometimes even smaller. * windows might move to a bad position, e.g. a window from the top left goes to bottom right Hmm...that might be an issue for some, yes. Personally I've never associated the window position on screen with the position of the window in the effect. Perhaps because I never really got to see the zoom out animation (all my systems were always with binary nvidia and there the animation is just 0.5s freeze) and so the visual clue was broken. Dunno. The natural layout tries to optimize that by using an algorithm using size and position as reference. The downside is that the layout might appear to be random. But so would a movement all across the screen look random. I do dare to say that I don't understand this algorithm at all and I believe so do other people. The advantage of the grid would be that the all windows are presented in a uniform and consistent form, even if the sorting is random/not ideal. In this case, imo the looks outweight the negative of the grid as you get the same (moreless) negatives in the Natural look. Do you have a link to the VDG thread btw? Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Monday 12 January 2015 12:12:07 Martin Klapetek wrote: On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: Also what exactly does suck about it? The problems with the non natural layouts are various, e.g.: * windows might get too small as all windows have same size I believe that's not really a problem, see the screenshot I posted above with 16 windows. I have no data for this claim, but I don't think that many people actually have more than 10 windows opened at once? And there's the label. at the moment I have 21 open windows. As I'm writing now this mail it increased to 22. I don't think that it's that uncommon to have many open windows - from bug reports I can be sure that it can be 30. Please also consider that this is also used in DesktopGrid. So the thumbs get smaller there. I actually find the windows in Natural to be sometimes even smaller. * windows might move to a bad position, e.g. a window from the top left goes to bottom right Hmm...that might be an issue for some, yes. Personally I've never associated the window position on screen with the position of the window in the effect. Perhaps because I never really got to see the zoom out animation (all my systems were always with binary nvidia and there the animation is just 0.5s freeze) and so the visual clue was broken. Dunno. The natural layout tries to optimize that by using an algorithm using size and position as reference. The downside is that the layout might appear to be random. But so would a movement all across the screen look random. I do dare to say that I don't understand this algorithm at all and I believe so do other people. The algorithm is not as complex as it looks :-) I'm quite confident that you would understand it. Also another better suited algorithm could be implemented. I had been dreaming of using a max-flow/min-cut based algorithm for years. Or an algorithm which tries to keep windows as large as possible but still orders them in a grid. The advantage of the grid would be that the all windows are presented in a uniform and consistent form, even if the sorting is random/not ideal. In this case, imo the looks outweight the negative of the grid as you get the same (moreless) negatives in the Natural look. I personally doubt that the existing options are better suited than the natural layout. I'm not doubting that there could be a better algorithm, though. Do you have a link to the VDG thread btw? sure: https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=285t=123481 Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Friday 09 January 2015 17:16:56 Martin Klapetek wrote: Hey there, so I've been thinking about the Present Windows effect of KWin. The default setting for laying the windows out is currently Natural, but to me that layout looks rather random as the windows are scattered all around with different sizes and for me personally it's always hard jumping with eyes all over the screen. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/1f043922.png Switching to Regular grid makes the layout more uniform, better aligned, predictable and somewhat consistent. Given that Plasma5 is now all about pixel-perfection and streamlineing, this change imo fits into that. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/ac9f8f90.png So I'd like to propose changing the default of Present Windows effect to the grid setting. What do you think? -2 The reason for the natural layout is that the other layout sucks. That was what we shipped with in 4.0 and 4.1. Let's learn from history and don't repeat it . I have asked for a rewrite for Present Windows/Desktop Grid for a long time. It just needs someone coming up with a good design (thread on VDG forum exists but died out) and implement it in QML. That's the way to do it, changing defaults doesn't improve the situation. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: -2 The reason for the natural layout is that the other layout sucks. That was what we shipped with in 4.0 and 4.1. Let's learn from history and don't repeat it . What was the history? I was not around at that time. Is there a thread somewhere? Also what exactly does suck about it? Can it be improved without a full rewrite? Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Saturday 10 January 2015 17:54:34 Martin Klapetek wrote: On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: -2 The reason for the natural layout is that the other layout sucks. That was what we shipped with in 4.0 and 4.1. Let's learn from history and don't repeat it . What was the history? I was not around at that time. Is there a thread somewhere? It's years ago (2008 or 2009). I don't know whether there was a thread about it or whether there was IRC discussion or bug reports. Also what exactly does suck about it? The problems with the non natural layouts are various, e.g.: * windows might get too small as all windows have same size * windows might move to a bad position, e.g. a window from the top left goes to bottom right The natural layout tries to optimize that by using an algorithm using size and position as reference. The downside is that the layout might appear to be random. But so would a movement all across the screen look random. Can it be improved without a full rewrite? It needs a full rewrite no matter what :-) Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Martin Klapetek martin.klape...@gmail.com wrote: Hey there, so I've been thinking about the Present Windows effect of KWin. The default setting for laying the windows out is currently Natural, but to me that layout looks rather random as the windows are scattered all around with different sizes and for me personally it's always hard jumping with eyes all over the screen. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/1f043922.png Switching to Regular grid makes the layout more uniform, better aligned, predictable and somewhat consistent. Given that Plasma5 is now all about pixel-perfection and streamlineing, this change imo fits into that. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/ac9f8f90.png So I'd like to propose changing the default of Present Windows effect to the grid setting. What do you think? I haven't been using this feature, maybe the reason is the current default looks quite chaotic. Nevertheless, I'd suggest asking the VdG, they might have valuable input. Aleix ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
so I've been thinking about the Present Windows effect of KWin. The default setting for laying the windows out is currently Natural, but to me that layout looks rather random as the windows are scattered all around with different sizes and for me personally it's +1, though the grid layout could use some improvement. Cheerio, Ivan -- KDE, ivan.cu...@kde.org, http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/ gpg key id: 850B6F76 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
My only objection to that is that the grid will end up making the each window generally smaller until it could be hard to know what window represents what content. There are other methods that could be used for that, like stacking similar windows close together, or having really good typography to name each window. -- Andres Betts On January 9, 2015 at 9:17:39 AM, Martin Klapetek (martin.klape...@gmail.com) wrote: Hey there, so I've been thinking about the Present Windows effect of KWin. The default setting for laying the windows out is currently Natural, but to me that layout looks rather random as the windows are scattered all around with different sizes and for me personally it's always hard jumping with eyes all over the screen. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/1f043922.png Switching to Regular grid makes the layout more uniform, better aligned, predictable and somewhat consistent. Given that Plasma5 is now all about pixel-perfection and streamlineing, this change imo fits into that. Pic here: http://paste.opensuse.org/images/ac9f8f90.png So I'd like to propose changing the default of Present Windows effect to the grid setting. What do you think? Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
One idea could be to use the size differences and placement mean something. Say that I have five windows open, one that I use constantly and one that keep checking out every now and then - the placement that would make most sense then is to make sure that I as a user can quickest focus on the window most probably needed. So say its a grid sollution - the second most used window should be placed nearest to the mouse (under the mouse currents position so that whether the window grid was started with a keyboard shortcut or a screen edge it would have the same result). OR by size - where the largest is the second most used and then falling in size to the last used (thats the smallest) On Friday 09 January 2015 09.35.14 Andres Betts wrote: Maybe another thing that could help in the case of having a ton of windows is to actually have them all be presented and not shaded. So not making all of them be dark and only lighten up the one where the cursor is over. Maybe in the VDG we could come up with some ideas. You could post it there if you wanted extra input. -- Andres Betts On January 9, 2015 at 9:32:55 AM, Martin Klapetek (martin.klape...@gmail.com) wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Andres Betts anditosan1...@gmail.com wrote: My only objection to that is that the grid will end up making the each window generally smaller until it could be hard to know what window represents what content. There are other methods that could be used for that, like stacking similar windows close together, or having really good typography to name each window. Well if you have /that/ many windows, I think neither setting for that effect will be good enough :) But I tried with 16 windows on my 1920x1200 and I can still make out very well what's what -- http://paste.opensuse.org/images/4207e18f.png There are also still the text labels over the window, so if you cannot tell a window by the thumb size, you can just read it (that imo works well). Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
Maybe another thing that could help in the case of having a ton of windows is to actually have them all be presented and not shaded. So not making all of them be dark and only lighten up the one where the cursor is over. Maybe in the VDG we could come up with some ideas. You could post it there if you wanted extra input. -- Andres Betts On January 9, 2015 at 9:32:55 AM, Martin Klapetek (martin.klape...@gmail.com) wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Andres Betts anditosan1...@gmail.com wrote: My only objection to that is that the grid will end up making the each window generally smaller until it could be hard to know what window represents what content. There are other methods that could be used for that, like stacking similar windows close together, or having really good typography to name each window. Well if you have /that/ many windows, I think neither setting for that effect will be good enough :) But I tried with 16 windows on my 1920x1200 and I can still make out very well what's what -- http://paste.opensuse.org/images/4207e18f.png There are also still the text labels over the window, so if you cannot tell a window by the thumb size, you can just read it (that imo works well). Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: RFC: Use Grid as default for KWin's Presnt windows effect
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Andres Betts anditosan1...@gmail.com wrote: My only objection to that is that the grid will end up making the each window generally smaller until it could be hard to know what window represents what content. There are other methods that could be used for that, like stacking similar windows close together, or having really good typography to name each window. Well if you have /that/ many windows, I think neither setting for that effect will be good enough :) But I tried with 16 windows on my 1920x1200 and I can still make out very well what's what -- http://paste.opensuse.org/images/4207e18f.png There are also still the text labels over the window, so if you cannot tell a window by the thumb size, you can just read it (that imo works well). Cheers -- Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
