Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Martin Gräßlin wrote: Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-) They'll find a way around that too. If you make something idiot-proof, nature builds a better idiot. ;-) (And sorry, I don't remember who originally came up with that citation.) Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 13:06:34 Kevin Kofler wrote: Martin Gräßlin wrote: Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-) They'll find a way around that too. If you make something idiot-proof, nature builds a better idiot. ;-) (And sorry, I don't remember who originally came up with that citation.) instead of trying to convince each other with increasingly clever (or whatever other adjective one wishes to use ;) statements ... let's get back to focussing on making great technology that matters. we know why we want to move away from the 20 year old implementation of screen savers, we know how we want to do it ... now let's execute on that plan, keep communicating to our users and partners about it and be open to adaptation as necessary as we receive real world feedback (by which i do not mean the loudest whingers of course :) -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
In data martedì 4 ottobre 2011 13:36:52, Aaron J. Seigo ha scritto: we know why we want to move away from the 20 year old implementation of screen savers, we know how we want to do it ... now let's execute on that plan, keep communicating to our users and partners about it and be open to FYI, according to the poll on the forum (but low sample size: 150+ votes), most don't really care about the change in the screensavers. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Ivan Čukić wrote: Probably because the distros are not shipping 4.7 yet. (4.1 to 4.6 actually do show desktop icons by default, in a folder view widget which is set up by No plasma release had the folderview by default. Some of the distros had (have) the folder view as default containment, but that is NOT our default. The default containment was the plain/empty desktop (not the folder view), *but* 00-defaultLayout.js used to put a folder view widget showing the xdg-user-dir for Desktop (i.e. ~/Desktop or a translation of it) on that desktop containment for all new users. This got removed for 4.7 by the following commit: https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kde-workspace/repository/revisions/70e746d3fae467c52ab91cb7e8b5b10f2519248b Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Martin Gräßlin wrote: What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE * I would complain * I would miss them but could live without them * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me * Don't care You forgot option 6: * Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what creative hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution to fix screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all the followers using that fix to complain loudly about everything that breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it. (because that's exactly what I expect to happen). Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Monday 03 October 2011 21:31:19 Kevin Kofler wrote: Martin Gräßlin wrote: What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE * I would complain * I would miss them but could live without them * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me * Don't care You forgot option 6: * Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what creative hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution to fix screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all the followers using that fix to complain loudly about everything that breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it. (because that's exactly what I expect to happen). Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-) Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default. I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside from user support). -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote: In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default. I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside from user support). good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum support something like a questionaire: What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE * I would complain * I would miss them but could live without them * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me * Don't care Cheers Martin -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers -- Cheerio, Ivan -- While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words Dying to believe in what you heard I was staring straight into the shining sun ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote: In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto: without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default. I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums. Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside from user support). good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum support something like a questionaire: Probably the Workspace forum. The forum has inbuilt Polls support which you can use to run the questionaire below. Any forum user can create Polls. What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE * I would complain * I would miss them but could live without them * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me * Don't care Cheers Martin -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:31:32, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto: would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE Is there a good definition of X and non X screensavers? This is IMO important to communicate to the userbase as for them they are likely one and the same. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 12:19:02, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto: Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?fft102 I just blogged about this, so the poll gets more exposure. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 13:27:13 Luca Beltrame wrote: In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 12:19:02, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto: Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?fft�102 I just blogged about this, so the poll gets more exposure. cool thanks - I plan to also blog about it tomorrow when I have the first screenshot with a QML-ified unlock dialog ;-) Cheers Martin -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:43:43, Ivan Čukić ha scritto: It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers krop on IRC raised an interesting question: is this drop of support related to just support, or also library dependencies? This because some stuff such as KIdleTime might depend on these. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Sunday 02 October 2011 14:15:01 Luca Beltrame wrote: In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:43:43, Ivan Čukić ha scritto: It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers krop on IRC raised an interesting question: is this drop of support related to just support, or also library dependencies? This because some stuff such as KIdleTime might depend on these. This should not affect libraries at all. All D-Bus interfaces will be the same, just the visualization is changed. Cheers Martin -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Saturday 01 October 2011 04:46:29 Markus Slopianka wrote: Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use screensavers these days? Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the top answers. QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver code is dropped. (IMHO at least.) I don't have empirical studies but given the bug reports we get OpenGL screensavers seem to be quite common these days as well and I think that's the group which would be difficult. Those who really need the Matrix screensaver. On the other hand most screensavers are low quality and hardly updated. What could help is to get some data from the distros how many users have screensavers actually installed. Cheers Martin On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: Hi all, the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have more opinions: screensaver. What's important to see: screen locker and screen saver are two different things mixed together for historic reasons. The screen locker implements the security aspect of preventing someone else to use the screen. The screen saver shows an animation so that the hardware is not damaged. For some reasons those two things come together and also the old implementation is together. The new implementation is about screen locking and not saving. My idea is to improve the screen locking experience which kind of looks like 1995. Let's reuse the background of the splash screen and show a nice QML-ified dialog for unlocking. Instead of showing the unlock dialog only when someone moves the mouse, it would always be present. If the screen has been locked for long time DPMS kicks in and disables the screen (yeah for energy saving). This means there is no more place for screen savers. It would just not be visible. This also means we don't have the Plasma Screensaver any more (this might be fixable by using a Plasma containment as the screen locker in the first place). But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the screen locker to KWin in the first place Personally I would prefer option 1 with a later implementation of option 2 (if time allows even for 4.8). Option 2 needs support from Plasma hackers who are all currently fixing up a tablet ;-) A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant usage after typing in the password. So looking forward to your comments on the subject. Cheers Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Saturday 01 October 2011, Markus Slopianka wrote: Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use screensavers these days? Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the top answers. QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver code is dropped. (IMHO at least.) that's what the support of plamoids on screensaver is for ;) (that as aaron noted implementing it in the lock effect will be dramatically easy) -- Marco Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
- Ursprüngliche Mitteilung - Am Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:14:59 +0200 schrieb Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org: But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. Seconding Marco: Why? it's such a hack around X that I fear it falls apart as soon as I touch it ;-) No really I prefer not to spend too much time on legacy code. So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers +1 A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. gg:greenwashing Just stress that aspect and best back it with some facts about the last available CRTs and burn-in-with-lcd myths. Otherwise you'll have to explain a) why is compositing such shit? b) but it works with windows c) can't you implement screensavers as kwin effects then? (yeah, but i won't! why? i think it's retarded. you suck! KDE sucks!! FOSS sucks i'm gonna use window blabbbabb) Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured kcmshell4 kdm, convenience, enable auto-login, lock session that's what I had in my mind :-) rather don't do this if only one user is configured as a) this is rather never the case (does kdm know that sauerbraten and mpd are no regular users? what about nobody, fetchmail b) breaks other session types (openbox, e17) - of course a kde user would never do, but kde should prevent it neither ;-) It would require support from distributions, properly even only possible during insallation. Cheers Martin Cheers, Thomas ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Thursday, September 29, 2011 23:49:50 Kevin Kofler wrote: Martin Gräßlin wrote: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) I don't think these are acceptable. Our users will complain loudly if their screensavers stop working. unless we give them something better and communicate with understanding. as someone else noted, understanding how and why people use this feature will be helpful. communicating clearly the path forward with wayland, lock screens that meet all current use cases and the security problems with the current x screensavers will be vital. i really like martin's 4.8 - 4.9 plan as it will give us a natural opportunity for this communication. we also need to show what is possible with the QML solution we are offering, which is pretty flexible already. we should also stress that if things like OpenGL screensavers are important enough to people, that support for things to draw moving things on screen when locked can be created anew. it's not that screensavers are somehow inherently evil, just that the 20 year old implementation (as of 2012; first release was in 1992) of them is no longer fit for today's systems, and we currently do not have the manpower to reimpliment that feature set with our current resources. i think it would make a fine user-supported add-on. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 10:52:04 Marco Martin wrote: that's what the support of plamoids on screensaver is for ;) I already understood that but as a screensaver (you know: to actually save screens from damage, incl. LCDs) a few additional features are required. At the very least, plasmoids would need to move. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 12:36:12 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: we should also stress that if things like OpenGL screensavers are important enough to people, that support for things to draw moving things on screen when locked can be created anew. We already have KWin effects – even gimmicky ones like Snow. Apart from some (I imagine relatively simple to implement) call “stop effect XY on any input” isn't that enough? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 14:10:39 Marco Martin wrote: for saving from damage, there is a thing called power saving :p Doesn't help the people who want a huge clock as screensaver without damaging their displays. It has to move. A Plasma containment whose widgets can float and bounce from another (like soap bubbles) should be enough. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Aaron J. Seigo wrote: unless we give them something better and communicate with understanding. Users will not accept your something better unless their favorite existing screensaver runs on it. No amount of communication can change that. (And please don't shoot the messenger! I don't even use a screensaver myself, so I personally couldn't care less about this change.) Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Luca Beltrame wrote: After all, in the KDE Forums we don't see anymore people lamenting the lack of icons on desktop by default... Probably because the distros are not shipping 4.7 yet. (4.1 to 4.6 actually do show desktop icons by default, in a folder view widget which is set up by default.) Or because users upgrading from a previous version of Plasma get to keep their folder view, and those are the ones already testing 4.7. Or maybe because the distros are now overriding this broken 4.7 default, as Fedora is now doing for Fedora 16 (as of kde-settings-4.7-7.fc16). (We restore the good old folder view widget, otherwise people won't even see an icon to install their live CD to the hard disk: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=740676 . Note that this fix is actually not yet in F16 Beta, it will be in F16 Final. And any complaints about us actually using the JavaScript-based customization feature Plasma explicitly offers for distributions to use will be sent straight to /dev/null…) I'm fairly sure that when the first major distro starts shipping with 4.7 without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in in droves. Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. I'm with Marco on this one. I don't think having two totally different code paths and user exp is a good idea. * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some +1 If the dialogue is qml, then people could write qml screensavers. So, dropping the legacy ones doesn't seem like a totally revolt-inspiring idea. Maybe you could ask a question about this on your blog? Cheerio -- You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. -- Michael Pritchard ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote: What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend? This this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a lot of changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is a realistic option before frameworks 5 is released. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote: What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend? This this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a lot of changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is a realistic option before frameworks 5 is released. Okay, but hopefully this is a goal since it would solve all the problems. In the meantime, what about running a transparent version of the new locker with a non-locked screensaver underneath it? I know this is a bit hackish, but I really thing we would see a serious revolty if screensaver support was removed. People really like their screensavers. -Todd ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:27:23 +0200, todd rme toddrme2...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote: What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend? This this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a lot of changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is a realistic option before frameworks 5 is released. Okay, but hopefully this is a goal since it would solve all the problems. No it wouldn't and I don't want us seeing tying ourselve more to X in Frameworks 5. The existing screensavers won't work with Wayland anyway... In the meantime, what about running a transparent version of the new locker with a non-locked screensaver underneath it? I know this is a bit hackish, but I really thing we would see a serious revolty if screensaver support was removed. People really like their screensavers. Quite simple: security. The main reason of the change is to have the locker secure. If we add translucency to it and see the screen saver underneath we get to the problem again that the savers aren't secure. Cheers Martin -Todd ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Thursday, September 29, 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) +1 for this. if the lock screen is QML, when we get a QML version with OpenGL shaders people can go crazy creating new screensavers in all their glory. for Plasma widgets: it would mean creating a Containment and loading the configuration in that Containment; which means: not much. the current Plasma widgets support has a bunch of complicated code for working with (or more accurately: around) the screensaver unlocker window dialog. with a QML locker that doesn't require such hacking about, the code should be a lot simpler and cleaner. i don't think we can just drop the widgets-on-locker functionality, however, as that's an actual real-world-useful feature (whereas screensavers are an anachronism) -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Friday 30 September 2011 12:38:34 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Thursday, September 29, 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) +1 for this. if the lock screen is QML, when we get a QML version with OpenGL shaders people can go crazy creating new screensavers in all their glory. I just had a lengthy discussion about it with my GSoC student and we came up with the following plan: * for 4.8 use a hack to fall back to the legacy implementation if a screen saver is configured * advertise the new functionality in the release announcement including that you don't get the new super-awesome lock screen if you use an old screensaver and that the old screensavers are not secure * advertise a new improved screen saver functionality in 4.9 based on QML with GHNS integration and more * announce that the old screen saver support will be removed in 4.9 in favor for the new support and because it's an old X dependency which we need to remove in order to start the transition to Wayland This gives us no pressure to implement everything now for 4.8 and we don't have unhappy users. In best case we already have the new QML screen saver support in 4.8 and can get the community to port their screen savers to QML. Also we give a good technical reason why we have to drop the screensavers. I hope that makes everyone happy :-) (and is also the easiest way for me in 4.8 as I don't want to spend too much time on screen savers). Cheers Martin for Plasma widgets: it would mean creating a Containment and loading the configuration in that Containment; which means: not much. the current Plasma widgets support has a bunch of complicated code for working with (or more accurately: around) the screensaver unlocker window dialog. with a QML locker that doesn't require such hacking about, the code should be a lot simpler and cleaner. i don't think we can just drop the widgets-on-locker functionality, however, as that's an actual real-world-useful feature (whereas screensavers are an anachronism) -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use screensavers these days? Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the top answers. QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver code is dropped. (IMHO at least.) On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote: Hi all, the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have more opinions: screensaver. What's important to see: screen locker and screen saver are two different things mixed together for historic reasons. The screen locker implements the security aspect of preventing someone else to use the screen. The screen saver shows an animation so that the hardware is not damaged. For some reasons those two things come together and also the old implementation is together. The new implementation is about screen locking and not saving. My idea is to improve the screen locking experience which kind of looks like 1995. Let's reuse the background of the splash screen and show a nice QML-ified dialog for unlocking. Instead of showing the unlock dialog only when someone moves the mouse, it would always be present. If the screen has been locked for long time DPMS kicks in and disables the screen (yeah for energy saving). This means there is no more place for screen savers. It would just not be visible. This also means we don't have the Plasma Screensaver any more (this might be fixable by using a Plasma containment as the screen locker in the first place). But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the screen locker to KWin in the first place Personally I would prefer option 1 with a later implementation of option 2 (if time allows even for 4.8). Option 2 needs support from Plasma hackers who are all currently fixing up a tablet ;-) A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant usage after typing in the password. So looking forward to your comments on the subject. Cheers Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Thursday 29 September 2011, Martin Gräßlin wrote: Hi all, the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have more opinions: screensaver. +1 But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. there is a thing tecnically wise that i don't really understand: that locker effect after all is a full screen window... what of it tecnically actually depends from compositing? iirc you were once talking about a subset of effects that wouldn't need it, was this possible at all? So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the screen locker to KWin in the first place i wouldn't mind losing screensaver support completely. what i think should remain is the plasmoids support tough, that yes, belongs more to the screen locker. it looks not so hard stuffing an entire plasma shell into the qml locker effect, but i think it should -really- be available without compositing as well A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant usage after typing in the password. this could make sense, of course old kdm is needed where actual multiuser is needed, big deployments and such. -- Marco Martin ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Am Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:14:59 +0200 schrieb Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org: But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that code. Seconding Marco: Why? So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers +1 A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. gg:greenwashing Just stress that aspect and best back it with some facts about the last available CRTs and burn-in-with-lcd myths. Otherwise you'll have to explain a) why is compositing such shit? b) but it works with windows c) can't you implement screensavers as kwin effects then? (yeah, but i won't! why? i think it's retarded. you suck! KDE sucks!! FOSS sucks i'm gonna use window blabbbabb) Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured kcmshell4 kdm, convenience, enable auto-login, lock session rather don't do this if only one user is configured as a) this is rather never the case (does kdm know that sauerbraten and mpd are no regular users? what about nobody, fetchmail b) breaks other session types (openbox, e17) - of course a kde user would never do, but kde should prevent it neither ;-) Cheers, Thomas ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
Martin Gräßlin wrote: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) I don't think these are acceptable. Our users will complain loudly if their screensavers stop working. And then blogs and forum posts will pop up with various buggy hacks for how to use xscreensaver directly in KDE, with the resulting support nightmare. As useless as a screensaver is these days, users LOVE these things and will NOT put up with losing that feature. Kevin Kofler ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote: So there are some solutions: * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first option) * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the screen locker to KWin in the first place What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend? This would show screensavers as plasma wallpapers. Then you could go with the second option and get screensaver support for free in a leck hackish way. I know there have been requests from at least several people for a screensaver wallpaper backend for plasma since before it was even released, so this would solve the problem while benefiting plasma as a whole. -Todd ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
