Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-04 Thread Kevin Kofler
Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that
 xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-)

They'll find a way around that too. If you make something idiot-proof, 
nature builds a better idiot. ;-) (And sorry, I don't remember who 
originally came up with that citation.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-04 Thread Aaron J. Seigo
On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 13:06:34 Kevin Kofler wrote:
 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
  Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that
  xscreensaver is stacked underneath the desktop shell ;-)

 They'll find a way around that too. If you make something idiot-proof,
 nature builds a better idiot. ;-) (And sorry, I don't remember who
 originally came up with that citation.)

instead of trying to convince each other with increasingly clever (or whatever
other adjective one wishes to use ;) statements ... let's get back to
focussing on making great technology that matters.

we know why we want to move away from the 20 year old implementation of screen
savers, we know how we want to do it ... now let's execute on that plan, keep
communicating to our users and partners about it and be open to adaptation as
necessary as we receive real world feedback (by which i do not mean the
loudest whingers of course :)

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-04 Thread Luca Beltrame
In data martedì 4 ottobre 2011 13:36:52, Aaron J. Seigo ha scritto:

 we know why we want to move away from the 20 year old implementation of
 screen savers, we know how we want to do it ... now let's execute on that
 plan, keep communicating to our users and partners about it and be open to

FYI, according to the poll on the forum (but low sample size: 150+ votes),
most don't really care about the change in the screensavers.

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-03 Thread Kevin Kofler
Ivan Čukić wrote:
 Probably because the distros are not shipping 4.7 yet. (4.1 to 4.6
 actually do show desktop icons by default, in a folder view widget which
 is set up by
 
 No plasma release had the folderview by default. Some of the distros
 had (have) the folder view as default containment, but that is NOT our
 default.

The default containment was the plain/empty desktop (not the folder view),
*but* 00-defaultLayout.js used to put a folder view widget showing the
xdg-user-dir for Desktop (i.e. ~/Desktop or a translation of it) on that
desktop containment for all new users. This got removed for 4.7 by the
following commit:
https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kde-workspace/repository/revisions/70e746d3fae467c52ab91cb7e8b5b10f2519248b

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-03 Thread Kevin Kofler
Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers?
 * I would switch to another DE
 * I would complain
 * I would miss them but could live without them
 * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me
 * Don't care

You forgot option 6:
* Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with 
a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what 
creative hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution 
to fix screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all 
the followers using that fix to complain loudly about everything that 
breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it.
(because that's exactly what I expect to happen).

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-03 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Monday 03 October 2011 21:31:19 Kevin Kofler wrote:
 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
  What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers?
  * I would switch to another DE
  * I would complain
  * I would miss them but could live without them
  * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me
  * Don't care

 You forgot option 6:
 * Come up with some buggy hack to use xscreensaver directly (maybe even with
 a custom idle detector which runs it in test mode, you never know what
 creative hacks people come up with), advertise it loudly as THE solution
 to fix screen savers in KDE Plasma, then rush the forums together with all
 the followers using that fix to complain loudly about everything that
 breaks due to the hack, blaming Plasma for it.
 (because that's exactly what I expect to happen).
Well if they do I promise to ship an update to kwin to ensure that xscreensaver 
is stacked underneath the desktop shell
;-)

 Kevin Kofler

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Luca Beltrame
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto:

 without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop
 one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the
 KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in

I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting 
settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to 
the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default.
I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums.

Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would 
help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside from 
user support).

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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote:
 In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto:
 
  without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop
  one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the
  KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in
 
 I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting 
 settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to 
 the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default.
 I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums.
 
 Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would 
 help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside 
 from 
 user support).
good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum 
support something like a questionaire:
What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers?
* I would switch to another DE
* I would complain
* I would miss them but could live without them
* Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me
* Don't care

Cheers
Martin
 
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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Ivan Čukić
 What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers?

It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers



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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Ben Cooksley
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote:
 On Sunday 02 October 2011 09:26:34 Luca Beltrame wrote:
 In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 02:47:49, Kevin Kofler ha scritto:

  without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop
  one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the
  KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping 
  in

 I would argue that that's exactly the role of distributions, i.e. adjusting
 settings and so on. But I wasn't referring to no folderview shown, but to
 the first time when the workspace abolished show the desktop by default.
 I rarely saw such a complaint in the forums.

 Nevertheless, asking for feedback and posting something in the forums would
 help judge the reactions. And that's also why we have forums there (aside 
 from
 user support).
 good idea. What is the perfect sub-forum for such a question? Does the forum 
 support something like a questionaire:

Probably the Workspace forum. The forum has inbuilt Polls support
which you can use to run the questionaire below. Any forum user can
create Polls.

 What would you say if KDE Plasma would no longer support X Screensavers?
 * I would switch to another DE
 * I would complain
 * I would miss them but could live without them
 * Don't use screensavers, it doesn't affect me
 * Don't care

 Cheers
 Martin

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Luca Beltrame
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:31:32, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto:

 would no longer support X Screensavers? * I would switch to another DE

Is there a good definition of X and non X screensavers? This is IMO
important to communicate to the userbase as for them they are likely one and
the same.

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Luca Beltrame
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 12:19:02, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto:

 Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?fft—102

I just blogged about this, so the poll gets more exposure.

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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Sunday 02 October 2011 13:27:13 Luca Beltrame wrote:
 In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 12:19:02, Martin Gräßlin ha scritto:

  Poll created: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?fft�102

 I just blogged about this, so the poll gets more exposure.
cool thanks - I plan to also blog about it tomorrow when I have the first 
screenshot with a QML-ified unlock dialog ;-)

Cheers
Martin

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Luca Beltrame
In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:43:43, Ivan Čukić ha scritto:

 It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers

krop on IRC raised an interesting question: is this drop of support related
to just support, or also library dependencies? This because some stuff such as
KIdleTime might depend on these.

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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-02 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Sunday 02 October 2011 14:15:01 Luca Beltrame wrote:
 In data domenica 02 ottobre 2011 10:43:43, Ivan Čukić ha scritto:

  It needs to specify that no X Screensavers doesn't mean no screensavers

 krop on IRC raised an interesting question: is this drop of support related
 to just support, or also library dependencies? This because some stuff such as
 KIdleTime might depend on these.
This should not affect libraries at all. All D-Bus interfaces will be the same, 
just the visualization is changed.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Saturday 01 October 2011 04:46:29 Markus Slopianka wrote:
 Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use 
 screensavers these
 days?
 Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the 
 top answers.
 QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver 
 code is
 dropped. (IMHO at least.)
I don't have empirical studies but given the bug reports we get OpenGL 
screensavers seem to be quite common these
days as well and I think that's the group which would be difficult. Those who 
really need the Matrix screensaver. On
the other hand most screensavers are low quality and hardly updated.

What could help is to get some data from the distros how many users have 
screensavers actually installed.

Cheers
Martin

 On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can
  unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have
  more opinions: screensaver.
 
  What's important to see: screen locker and screen saver are two different
  things mixed together for historic reasons. The screen locker implements
  the security aspect of preventing someone else to use the screen. The
  screen saver shows an animation so that the hardware is not damaged. For
  some reasons those two things come together and also the old
  implementation is together.
 
  The new implementation is about screen locking and not saving. My idea is
  to improve the screen locking experience which kind of looks like 1995.
  Let's reuse the background of the splash screen and show a nice QML-ified
  dialog for unlocking. Instead of showing the unlock dialog only when
  someone moves the mouse, it would always be present. If the screen has
  been locked for long time DPMS kicks in and disables the screen (yeah for
  energy saving).
 
  This means there is no more place for screen savers. It would just not be
  visible. This also means we don't have the Plasma Screensaver any more
  (this might be fixable by using a Plasma containment as the screen locker
  in the first place).
 
  But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
  implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that
  code.
 
  So there are some solutions:
  * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles
  as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen
  locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first
  option)
  * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same
  security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the
  screen locker to KWin in the first place
 
  Personally I would prefer option 1 with a later implementation of option 2
  (if time allows even for 4.8). Option 2 needs support from Plasma hackers
  who are all currently fixing up a tablet ;-)
 
  A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that
  security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an
  improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do
  not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog
  would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant
  usage after typing in the password.
 
  So looking forward to your comments on the subject.
 
  Cheers
  Martin
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Marco Martin
On Saturday 01 October 2011, Markus Slopianka wrote:
 Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use
 screensavers these days?
 Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the
 top answers. QML replacements should be available for the top uses once
 the xscreensaver code is dropped. (IMHO at least.)

that's what the support of plamoids on screensaver is for ;)
(that as aaron noted implementing it in the lock effect will be dramatically 
easy)


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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Martin Gräßlin

- Ursprüngliche Mitteilung -
 Am Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:14:59 +0200
 schrieb Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org:
 
  But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
  implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change
  that code.
 Seconding Marco: Why?
it's such a hack around X that I fear it falls apart as soon as I touch it ;-) 
No really I prefer not to spend too much time on legacy code.
   
  So there are some solutions:
  * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some
  troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers
 +1
 
  A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise
  that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver
  support.
 gg:greenwashing
 Just stress that aspect and best back it with some facts about the last
 available CRTs and burn-in-with-lcd myths.
 Otherwise you'll have to explain
 a) why is compositing such shit?
 b) but it works with windows
 c) can't you implement screensavers as kwin effects then? (yeah, but
 i won't! why? i think it's retarded. you suck! KDE sucks!! FOSS
 sucks i'm gonna use window blabbbabb)
 
  Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only
  one user configured
 kcmshell4 kdm, convenience, enable auto-login, lock session
that's what I had in my mind :-)
 
 rather don't do this if only one user is configured as 
 a) this is rather never the case (does kdm know that sauerbraten and
 mpd are no regular users? what about nobody, fetchmail 
 b) breaks other session types (openbox, e17) - of course a kde user
 would never do, but kde should prevent it neither ;-)
It would require support from distributions, properly even only possible during 
insallation.

Cheers
Martin
 
 Cheers,
 Thomas

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Aaron J. Seigo
On Thursday, September 29, 2011 23:49:50 Kevin Kofler wrote:
 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
  * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles
  as evil KDE removed screensavers
  * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop
  screensaver support (same problems as first option)

 I don't think these are acceptable. Our users will complain loudly if their
 screensavers stop working.

unless we give them something better and communicate with understanding. as
someone else noted, understanding how and why people use this feature will be
helpful.

communicating clearly the path forward with wayland, lock screens that meet
all current use cases and the security problems with the current x
screensavers will be vital. i really like martin's 4.8 - 4.9 plan as it will
give us a natural opportunity for this communication.

we also need to show what is possible with the QML solution we are offering,
which is pretty flexible already.

we should also stress that if things like OpenGL screensavers are important
enough to people, that support for things to draw moving things on screen
when locked can be created anew. it's not that screensavers are somehow
inherently evil, just that the 20 year old implementation (as of 2012; first
release was in 1992) of them is no longer fit for today's systems, and we
currently do not have the manpower to reimpliment that feature set with our
current resources. i think it would make a fine user-supported add-on.

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Markus Slopianka
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 10:52:04 Marco Martin wrote:
 that's what the support of plamoids on screensaver is for ;)

I already understood that but as a screensaver (you know: to actually save 
screens from 
damage, incl. LCDs) a few additional features are required. At the very least, 
plasmoids 
would need to move.
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Markus Slopianka
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 12:36:12 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:

 we should also stress that if things like OpenGL screensavers are important
 enough to people, that support for things to draw moving things on screen
 when locked can be created anew.

We already have KWin effects – even gimmicky ones like Snow. Apart from some (I 
imagine 
relatively simple to implement) call “stop effect XY on any input” isn't that 
enough?
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Markus Slopianka
On Samstag 01 Oktober 2011 14:10:39 Marco Martin wrote:

 for saving from damage, there is a thing called power saving :p

Doesn't help the people who want a huge clock as screensaver without damaging 
their 
displays. It has to move.
A Plasma containment whose widgets can float and bounce from another (like soap 
bubbles) 
should be enough.
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Kevin Kofler
Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
 unless we give them something better and communicate with understanding.

Users will not accept your something better unless their favorite existing 
screensaver runs on it. No amount of communication can change that. (And 
please don't shoot the messenger! I don't even use a screensaver myself, so 
I personally couldn't care less about this change.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-10-01 Thread Kevin Kofler
Luca Beltrame wrote:
 After all, in the KDE Forums we don't see anymore people lamenting the
 lack of icons on desktop by default...

Probably because the distros are not shipping 4.7 yet. (4.1 to 4.6 actually 
do show desktop icons by default, in a folder view widget which is set up by 
default.) Or because users upgrading from a previous version of Plasma get 
to keep their folder view, and those are the ones already testing 4.7. Or 
maybe because the distros are now overriding this broken 4.7 default, as 
Fedora is now doing for Fedora 16 (as of kde-settings-4.7-7.fc16). (We 
restore the good old folder view widget, otherwise people won't even see an 
icon to install their live CD to the hard disk: 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=740676 . Note that this fix is 
actually not yet in F16 Beta, it will be in F16 Final. And any complaints 
about us actually using the JavaScript-based customization feature Plasma 
explicitly offers for distributions to use will be sent straight to 
/dev/null…)

I'm fairly sure that when the first major distro starts shipping with 4.7 
without a custom Plasma init script enabling the folder view of ~/Desktop 
one way or the other (either as a widget as in 4.6 or in Fedora 16, or the 
KDE-3-style folder view as desktop mode), complaints will start popping in 
in droves.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Ivan Cukic

 But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
 implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that
 code.

I'm with Marco on this one.

I don't think having two totally different code paths and user exp is a 
good idea.

 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some

+1

If the dialogue is qml, then people could write qml screensavers. So, 
dropping the legacy ones doesn't seem like a totally revolt-inspiring 
idea.

Maybe you could ask a question about this on your blog?


Cheerio

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Aaron J. Seigo
On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote:
 What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend?  This

this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a lot of 
changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is a 
realistic option before frameworks 5 is released.

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread todd rme
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote:
 On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote:
 What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend?  This

 this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a lot of
 changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is a
 realistic option before frameworks 5 is released.

Okay, but hopefully this is a goal since it would solve all the problems.

In the meantime, what about running a transparent version of the new
locker with a non-locked screensaver underneath it?  I know this is a
bit hackish, but I really thing we would see a serious revolty if
screensaver support was removed.  People really like their
screensavers.

-Todd
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:27:23 +0200, todd rme toddrme2...@gmail.com 
wrote:
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org 
wrote:

On Friday, September 30, 2011 07:48:28 todd rme wrote:
What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend? 
 This


this would require significant changes to Plasma::Wallpaper and a 
lot of
changes to how the painting is handled there. i don't think this is 
a

realistic option before frameworks 5 is released.


Okay, but hopefully this is a goal since it would solve all the 
problems.
No it wouldn't and I don't want us seeing tying ourselve more to X in 
Frameworks 5. The existing screensavers won't work with Wayland 
anyway...


In the meantime, what about running a transparent version of the new
locker with a non-locked screensaver underneath it?  I know this is a
bit hackish, but I really thing we would see a serious revolty if
screensaver support was removed.  People really like their
screensavers.
Quite simple: security. The main reason of the change is to have the 
locker secure. If we add translucency to it and see the screen saver 
underneath we get to the problem again that the savers aren't secure.


Cheers
Martin


-Todd
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Aaron J. Seigo
On Thursday, September 29, 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 * add Plasma widget support to new screen
 locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first
 option)

+1 for this.

if the lock screen is QML, when we get a QML version with OpenGL shaders
people can go crazy creating new screensavers in all their glory.

for Plasma widgets: it would mean creating a Containment and loading the
configuration in that Containment; which means: not much.

the current Plasma widgets support has a bunch of complicated code for working
with (or more accurately: around) the screensaver unlocker window dialog. with
a QML locker that doesn't require such hacking about, the code should be a lot
simpler and cleaner.

i don't think we can just drop the widgets-on-locker functionality, however,
as that's an actual real-world-useful feature (whereas screensavers are an
anachronism)

--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks


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Re: Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Martin Gräßlin
On Friday 30 September 2011 12:38:34 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
 On Thursday, September 29, 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
  * add Plasma widget support to new screen
  locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first
  option)

 +1 for this.

 if the lock screen is QML, when we get a QML version with OpenGL shaders
 people can go crazy creating new screensavers in all their glory.
I just had a lengthy discussion about it with my GSoC student and we came up 
with the following plan:

* for 4.8 use a hack to fall back to the legacy implementation if a screen 
saver is configured
* advertise the new functionality in the release announcement including that 
you don't get the new super-awesome
lock screen if you use an old screensaver and that the old screensavers are not 
secure
* advertise a new improved screen saver functionality in 4.9 based on QML with 
GHNS integration and more
* announce that the old screen saver support will be removed in 4.9 in favor 
for the new support and because it's an
old X dependency which we need to remove in order to start the transition to 
Wayland

This gives us no pressure to implement everything now for 4.8 and we don't have 
unhappy users. In best case we
already have the new QML screen saver support in 4.8 and can get the community 
to port their screen savers to
QML. Also we give a good technical reason why we have to drop the screensavers.

I hope that makes everyone happy :-) (and is also the easiest way for me in 4.8 
as I don't want to spend too much
time on screen savers).

Cheers
Martin


 for Plasma widgets: it would mean creating a Containment and loading the
 configuration in that Containment; which means: not much.

 the current Plasma widgets support has a bunch of complicated code for working
 with (or more accurately: around) the screensaver unlocker window dialog. with
 a QML locker that doesn't require such hacking about, the code should be a lot
 simpler and cleaner.

 i don't think we can just drop the widgets-on-locker functionality, however,
 as that's an actual real-world-useful feature (whereas screensavers are an
 anachronism)

 --
 Aaron J. Seigo
 humru othro a kohnu se
 GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks


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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-30 Thread Markus Slopianka
Is anybody aware of empiric studies for what (if at all) people use 
screensavers these 
days?
Personally I'd expect clock, news headlines, and photo slideshows to be the top 
answers.
QML replacements should be available for the top uses once the xscreensaver 
code is 
dropped. (IMHO at least.)

On Donnerstag 29 September 2011 22:14:59 Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can
 unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have
 more opinions: screensaver.
 
 What's important to see: screen locker and screen saver are two different
 things mixed together for historic reasons. The screen locker implements
 the security aspect of preventing someone else to use the screen. The
 screen saver shows an animation so that the hardware is not damaged. For
 some reasons those two things come together and also the old
 implementation is together.
 
 The new implementation is about screen locking and not saving. My idea is
 to improve the screen locking experience which kind of looks like 1995.
 Let's reuse the background of the splash screen and show a nice QML-ified
 dialog for unlocking. Instead of showing the unlock dialog only when
 someone moves the mouse, it would always be present. If the screen has
 been locked for long time DPMS kicks in and disables the screen (yeah for
 energy saving).
 
 This means there is no more place for screen savers. It would just not be
 visible. This also means we don't have the Plasma Screensaver any more
 (this might be fixable by using a Plasma containment as the screen locker
 in the first place).
 
 But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
 implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that
 code.
 
 So there are some solutions:
 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles
 as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen
 locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first
 option)
 * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same
 security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the
 screen locker to KWin in the first place
 
 Personally I would prefer option 1 with a later implementation of option 2
 (if time allows even for 4.8). Option 2 needs support from Plasma hackers
 who are all currently fixing up a tablet ;-)
 
 A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that
 security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an
 improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do
 not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog
 would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant
 usage after typing in the password.
 
 So looking forward to your comments on the subject.
 
 Cheers
 Martin
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-29 Thread Marco Martin
On Thursday 29 September 2011, Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 the work on the new screen locker implementation is nearly done (I can
 unlock again :-) and that brings me to an issue where I wanted to have
 more opinions: screensaver.
 

+1

 
 But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
 implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change that
 code.

there is a thing tecnically wise that i don't really understand:
that locker effect after all is a full screen window...
what of it tecnically actually depends from compositing?
iirc you were once talking about a subset of effects that wouldn't need it, 
was this possible at all?

 So there are some solutions:
 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles
 as evil KDE removed screensavers * add Plasma widget support to new screen
 locker implementation but drop screensaver support (same problems as first
 option)
 * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same
 security problems are present again which were the reason for moving the
 screen locker to KWin in the first place

i wouldn't mind losing screensaver support completely.
what i think should remain is the plasmoids support tough, that yes, belongs 
more to the screen locker.
it looks not so hard stuffing an entire plasma shell into the qml locker 
effect, but i think it should -really- be available without compositing as 
well

 A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise that
 security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver support. Also an
 improved login process I have in my mind: with only one user configured do
 not stop at KDM but log in directly with screen locked. The unlock dialog
 would then be shown after the complete session has been loaded, so instant
 usage after typing in the password.

this could make sense, of course old kdm is needed where actual multiuser is 
needed, big deployments and such.

-- 
Marco Martin
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-29 Thread Thomas Lübking
Am Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:14:59 +0200
schrieb Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org:

 But when compositing is turned off, you currently get the plain old
 implementation including screen savers. And I don't want to change
 that code.
Seconding Marco: Why?
 
 So there are some solutions:
 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some
 troubles as evil KDE removed screensavers
+1

 A possible solution for the user issue could be to clearly advertise
 that security reasons are responsible for removing screensaver
 support.
gg:greenwashing
Just stress that aspect and best back it with some facts about the last
available CRTs and burn-in-with-lcd myths.
Otherwise you'll have to explain
a) why is compositing such shit?
b) but it works with windows
c) can't you implement screensavers as kwin effects then? (yeah, but
i won't! why? i think it's retarded. you suck! KDE sucks!! FOSS
sucks i'm gonna use window blabbbabb)

 Also an improved login process I have in my mind: with only
 one user configured
kcmshell4 kdm, convenience, enable auto-login, lock session

rather don't do this if only one user is configured as 
a) this is rather never the case (does kdm know that sauerbraten and
mpd are no regular users? what about nobody, fetchmail 
b) breaks other session types (openbox, e17) - of course a kde user
would never do, but kde should prevent it neither ;-)

Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-29 Thread Kevin Kofler
Martin Gräßlin wrote:
 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles
 as evil KDE removed screensavers
 * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop
 screensaver support (same problems as first option)

I don't think these are acceptable. Our users will complain loudly if their 
screensavers stop working. And then blogs and forum posts will pop up with 
various buggy hacks for how to use xscreensaver directly in KDE, with the 
resulting support nightmare.

As useless as a screensaver is these days, users LOVE these things and will 
NOT put up with losing that feature.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: ScreenSaver and KDE Plasma 4.8?

2011-09-29 Thread todd rme
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Martin Gräßlin mgraess...@kde.org wrote:
 So there are some solutions:
 * drop screensaver support altogether, probably would create some troubles as 
 evil KDE removed screensavers
 * add Plasma widget support to new screen locker implementation but drop 
 screensaver support (same problems as
 first option)
 * add a fallback to legacy mode if a screen saver is configured. Means same 
 security problems are present again
 which were the reason for moving the screen locker to KWin in the first place

What about implementing a screensaver plasma wallpaper backend?  This
would show screensavers as plasma wallpapers.  Then you could go with
the second option and get screensaver support for free in a leck
hackish way.  I know there have been requests from at least several
people for a screensaver wallpaper backend for plasma since before it
was even released, so this would solve the problem while benefiting
plasma as a whole.

-Todd
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