Re: So about that 6000 dollars
Well, I can always help a bit with PHP. Hate to admit it :-). Bill
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
David: > The language doesn't make bad code, programmers make bad code. Some > languages make it easier to write bad code, however, but I think that's also > dependant on the programmer's level of understanding of the actual code and > the objective. TMTOWTDI. Language influences the way the programmer thinks, though. A programmer who has no concept of macros, closures or continuations probably won't miss them. One who is used to getting work done faster with them will be at least unhappy. If the language is chaotic, like php, then many of the programmers will write chaotically. Ones who know (and think in) other languages may be safe, as will ones who have learnt good programming, but most php coders seem to be self-taught. [...] > > > I make it a point never to turn down a contribution or contributor. > > That is not a healthy statement. Again, I know that's politically > > incorrect, but that's the way it is. > I meant 'turn down' from a morale and future contribution perspective, not > from a "Hey, we'll just toss this code in there and see what happens" > perspective. If you turn them down now, they won't be inclined to learn > more, help you further in the future, or contribute. If you teach them to > fish... Ah, I see "turn down" as more or less a synonym for "reject", as in the contribution. Two countries divided by a common language, again. -- MJR
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> basic requirements: > 306K for application OWCH! What are they putting in these applications?! > Looks like they've improved matters slightly now that version 3.0 is out > of beta, but I still have no desire to waste 128kB. This smells of the "Why improve or optimize the speed of our code, let's just bump up the requirements of the hardware needed to run it!". Sound familiar? /d
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> If I hammer the server hard enough, can I make it catch fire? (OK, poor > joke, I'm sorry... I've just seen enough bad php to last me many > lifetimes.) The language doesn't make bad code, programmers make bad code. Some languages make it easier to write bad code, however, but I think that's also dependant on the programmer's level of understanding of the actual code and the objective. TMTOWTDI. > I don't see that your comments make a decisive case. Libraries exist > for many other languages, including perl, to do what you want and most > of those languages are more powerful and elegant than PHP. Nobody said it was decisive. Someone offered, it was one less thing I had to do myself, and I have some local talent I can prod for help if I get stuck looking at/fixing/auditing the code. Shortest distance between two points.. Seriously though, if I can do something better in perl, I will. > Yes, that's good, but are they going to help maintain it? I made sure he understood this was not just a "throw it over the wall" type of project, but even if it is, and he walks away, I want to make sure I can understand the code enough to be able to fix/update it as necessary (note bugs.plkr.org was my first foray into the PHP menage, and it's doing ok with little babysitting). I know php enough to be probably at the Amateur Lethal status right now. Level 4 Sorceror. Nothing more. > > I make it a point never to turn down a contribution or contributor. > > That is not a healthy statement. Again, I know that's politically > incorrect, but that's the way it is. I meant 'turn down' from a morale and future contribution perspective, not from a "Hey, we'll just toss this code in there and see what happens" perspective. If you turn them down now, they won't be inclined to learn more, help you further in the future, or contribute. If you teach them to fish... /d
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 03:35:25PM -0800, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > > The conversation started when I showed her the O'Reilly Linux Device > Drivers book and Samba books online in Plucker format. I offered to help > them get their content "PDA-ready" on their online books download section. > She seemed interested in the idea. Perhaps it would be a good entry point > for Plucker and for doing a comparison of the alternatives. Here's something that you might want to use when comparing Plucker with iSilo. When I tested the iSilo 3.0 beta last month, I was surprised and deeply irritated to discover that I couldn't use it at all until I had about 150kB free on my Visor. 150kB of permanently UNUSABLE memory if you want your iSilo documents to be always available!!! The website for iSilo 3.0 (http://www.isilo.com/download.htm) has this to say: basic requirements: 306K for application Additional free working memory: 128k for viewing documents in internal memory (256k recommended) 256k for viewing documents on memory expansion cards (512k recommended) Looks like they've improved matters slightly now that version 3.0 is out of beta, but I still have no desire to waste 128kB. Alys
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
David: > > OK, I'll bite: php? Dear God, nooo! Is plucker going for a > > record number of languages used, or something? ;-) > You forget whose house is right up the road, and whose house the Plucker > server is currently colocated within... Rasmus Lerdorf, author of php. If I hammer the server hard enough, can I make it catch fire? (OK, poor joke, I'm sorry... I've just seen enough bad php to last me many lifetimes.) > Seriously though, php is ideal for this over perl as much as I hate > to admit it. It does lend itself well to session handling and form > processing and very fast database access. All of which will be required > attributes for this system to work. [...] PHP programmers should all make sure they read and *understand* "Study in scarlet" before being allowed to start work. I don't see that your comments make a decisive case. Libraries exist for many other languages, including perl, to do what you want and most of those languages are more powerful and elegant than PHP. > Besides, I have a volunteer that knows php, and that's less work I have to > do actually coding it. I can get onto other things taking up my time and > burn through them. Yes, that's good, but are they going to help maintain it? > I make it a point never to turn down a contribution or contributor. That is not a healthy statement. Again, I know that's politically incorrect, but that's the way it is. -- MJR
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> OK, I'll bite: php? Dear God, nooo! Is plucker going for a > record number of languages used, or something? ;-) You forget whose house is right up the road, and whose house the Plucker server is currently colocated within... Rasmus Lerdorf, author of php. Not that he'll help me, but I can be annoying enough to get some of his unique criticism when required, I think. Seriously though, php is ideal for this over perl as much as I hate to admit it. It does lend itself well to session handling and form processing and very fast database access. All of which will be required attributes for this system to work. Perl in this case would be much more work for me to implement in the short term. Whatever makes the job easier. Besides, I have a volunteer that knows php, and that's less work I have to do actually coding it. I can get onto other things taking up my time and burn through them. I make it a point never to turn down a contribution or contributor. /d
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> So where are the people promoting Plucker in that thread? I only read > my local palmtops group, as I don't have that much time or a > particularly big stake in palms at the moment, but I often promote it > there. I have sent a message to the proprietor of GoChannels.net to see if he is willing to work with us. I'm sure PODS could infuse his collection quite extensively. He has 32 "channels" now, and currently PODS has 543 records. I should audit it to make sure they're all still valid. I'm sure 20-30% have moved or been closed down by now anyway. We'll see what happens. It's important to note that AvantGo restricts content from being shared. How is this fostering the spread of information? How does this benefit content providers? /d
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
David wrote: > I've got a guy volunteering already to help with the php-based front > end for "Wucker" (ok, I couldn't think of a name, Web Plucker), which is [snip] OK, I'll bite: php? Dear God, nooo! Is plucker going for a record number of languages used, or something? ;-) -- MJR
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> From the palm newsgroup archives the past few days, for those that don't > read it full time. I didn't see one single active plug for Plucker there. Hrm. I should really do a head-to-head and compare/contrast AvantGo with Plucker with iSilo with Sitescooper, etc. I was at ALS on Saturday and spoke with Betsy Waliszewski (Product Marketing Manager for O'Reilly) and she promised to get me the name of someone who would be interested in my articles regarding PDAs and the work we're doing in this space. The conversation started when I showed her the O'Reilly Linux Device Drivers book and Samba books online in Plucker format. I offered to help them get their content "PDA-ready" on their online books download section. She seemed interested in the idea. Perhaps it would be a good entry point for Plucker and for doing a comparison of the alternatives. In the meantime, there's always this message I posted from awhile back: http://gnu-designs.com/code/plucker-vs-avantgo.txt Someone want to memorize those features, and offer them when the newsgroups rile up like this and think that AvantGo is the only alternative out there? /d
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
Robert: > This is a nice example of what David was discussing in regards to the heavy > tolls being tossed onto the small independent content providers. So where are the people promoting Plucker in that thread? I only read my local palmtops group, as I don't have that much time or a particularly big stake in palms at the moment, but I often promote it there. -- MJR
Re: So about that 6000 dollars
> From the palm newsgroup archives the past few days, for those that don't > read it full time. . This is a nice example of what David was discussing > in regards to the heavy tolls being tossed onto the small independent > content providers. I've got a guy volunteering already to help with the php-based front end for "Wucker" (ok, I couldn't think of a name, Web Plucker), which is going to expose the innards of PODS to the users. We're working out a schema now, which will make it easier to do some things AvantGo and other similar services don't yet do. /d
