Re: MacBook

[Anon Anon]

I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a
bastardized bsd box.

I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.

Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out before
hand?

On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith"  wrote:



Hi,

I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.

I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop
and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move
upgrading from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.

The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do
not have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when
there is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have
a work around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.
JoinMe.com does no work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I
use my Windows laptop.  I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.

Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.

Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.

I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.

In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or
15.4 inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.
I suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.

My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware
that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the
MacBook at a slightly discounted price.

If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in no
time.

The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external
monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real
estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is
with the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone
on this list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh
rate.

I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful.  And I could add an iPhone to
the mix and utilize those benefits.

If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be a
reasonable life expectancy in a production environment?  What would I be
able to reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day in day?

Any and every thought is much appreciated.


-- 
Keith Smith
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Re: MacBook

[Alan Dayley]

My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no
problems. I replaced the hard drive with a Samsung SSD about four years ago
only because I wanted the improved performance. The whole system as zero
problems.

My older son is now using my four year old 13" MacBook Air. It has had zero
problems except that the battery doesn't hold a charge for more than 2
hours any more. Normal battery wear. That notebook spent four years
traveling all over with me, almost every week in my bag going and coming
from somewhere. The only physical issue is a few of the keyboard key tops
are scratched down from my fingernails.

I have run Ubuntu and Mint on both of the systems without issue. Though I
confess to spending most of my time in OS X.

I now have a four month old 13" MacBook Air. Has double the RAM of my
previous unit. It helps. Buy as much RAM as you can.

Apple hardware, in my experience, is both beautiful and durable.

Alan


On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Anon Anon  wrote:

> I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a
> bastardized bsd box.
>
> I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.
>
> Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out before
> hand?
>
> On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith"  wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
>
> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop
> and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move
> upgrading from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.
>
> The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do
> not have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when
> there is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have
> a work around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.
> JoinMe.com does no work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I
> use my Windows laptop.  I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.
>
> Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.
>
> Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.
>
> I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.
>
> In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or
> 15.4 inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.
> I suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.
>
> My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware
> that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the
> MacBook at a slightly discounted price.
>
> If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in
> no time.
>
> The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external
> monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real
> estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is
> with the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone
> on this list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh
> rate.
>
> I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful.  And I could add an iPhone
> to the mix and utilize those benefits.
>
> If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be a
> reasonable life expectancy in a production environment?  What would I be
> able to reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day in day?
>
> Any and every thought is much appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Keith Smith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
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Re: MacBook

[Sesso]

Buy one. They last forever. I have been using apple Apple products for many 
years and they are very stable. Newer ones with SSD are going to be what you 
want. I've only had to replace a hard drive once back when i had a spindle. 
Just get a used one that us a year old and you will save a lot if you don't 
like the price. I recently got rid of my iPhone out of boredom bht I use a Mac 
pro desktop, 15 inch MacBook pro, and iPad.  All solid. We even have Mac minis 
in the house.  Those are really cheap and work well if you don't need a laptop. 
Jason


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Anon Anon  Date: 
8/24/16  9:05 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: Main PLUG discussion list 
 Subject: Re: MacBook 
I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a bastardized 
bsd box.
I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.
Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out before hand?

On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith"  wrote:




Hi,



I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.



I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop and 
desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move upgrading 
from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.



The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do not 
have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when there is 
an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have a work 
around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.  JoinMe.com does no 
work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I use my Windows laptop.  
I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.



Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.



Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.



I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.



In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or 15.4 
inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.  I suspect 
with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.



My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware that 
I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the MacBook at a 
slightly discounted price.



If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in no 
time.



The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external 
monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real 
estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is with 
the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone on this 
list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh rate.



I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful.  And I could add an iPhone to the 
mix and utilize those benefits.



If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be a reasonable 
life expectancy in a production environment?  What would I be able to 
reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day in day?



Any and every thought is much appreciated.





-- 

Keith Smith

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Re: MacBook

[Keith Smith]

On 2016-08-24 09:05, Anon Anon wrote:

I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a
bastardized bsd box.

I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.

Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out
before hand?


Interesting though.  Is there a free download?



On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith" 
wrote:


Hi,

I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.

I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer. Currently I use Mint on a Dell. Both
laptop and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10. Was a
bad move upgrading from M$7 to M$10... another story for another
day.

The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.
I do not have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain
Linux Mint when there is an issue. For instance Dropbox does not
launch correctly. I have a work around, but do not want to have to
figure this stuff out. JoinMe.com does no work completely on my
Linux desktop and I need it so I use my Windows laptop. I can watch
but I cannot become the presenter.

Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.

Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.

I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and
PHP 7.

In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro
13.3 or 15.4 inch models. I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has
16GB of RAM. I suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.

My shock is the $2000 price tag. Yikes. I'm used to cheap dell
hardware that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale. I can see Best Buy is
selling the MacBook at a slightly discounted price.

If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for
itself in no time.

The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two
external monitors. At the resolution the Pro provides that should
be a lot of real estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only
downside I am aware of is with the external monitors the refresh
rate drops to 30Hz. I think someone on this list brought that up
and they did not like that low of a refresh rate.

I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful. And I could add an
iPhone to the mix and utilize those benefits.

If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be
a reasonable life expectancy in a production environment? What
would I be able to reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day
in day?

Any and every thought is much appreciated.

--
Keith Smith
---
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Re: MacBook

[Nathan England]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 2016-08-24 09:05, Anon Anon wrote:
> Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out
> before hand?
> 


I have contemplated this several times and in the end realized it would
just be expensive hardware to run Fedora on. I have looked into running
mac OS in virtualbox and not had much luck. I did get it once, but was
stuck in a 640x480 window which really sucked and made testing
impossible.

Besides downloading from the Mac store, which I cannot because I don't
have a mac account, how would you get OS X in a virtualbox? And with
decent resolution for testing?

Nathan
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Re: MacBook

[Stephen Partington]

The mac hardware is pretty durable. I have older macbook pro's (first and
second gen mobile i7's that are still very viable with just a battery/hd
update in them.

I have to say, you pay a huge premium on the hardware, but it is really
quite solid.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Keith Smith 
wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
>
> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop
> and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move
> upgrading from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.
>
> The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do
> not have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when
> there is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have
> a work around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.
> JoinMe.com does no work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I
> use my Windows laptop.  I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.
>
> Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.
>
> Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.
>
> I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.
>
> In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or
> 15.4 inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.
> I suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.
>
> My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware
> that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the
> MacBook at a slightly discounted price.
>
> If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in
> no time.
>
> The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external
> monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real
> estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is
> with the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone
> on this list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh
> rate.
>
> I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful.  And I could add an iPhone
> to the mix and utilize those benefits.
>
> If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be a
> reasonable life expectancy in a production environment?  What would I be
> able to reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day in day?
>
> Any and every thought is much appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Keith Smith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>



-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
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Re: MacBook

[Stephen Partington]

you can install virtualbox without the apple store. just have to flip a
switch in osx settings.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Nathan England  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2016-08-24 09:05, Anon Anon wrote:
> > Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out
> > before hand?
> >
>
>
> I have contemplated this several times and in the end realized it would
> just be expensive hardware to run Fedora on. I have looked into running
> mac OS in virtualbox and not had much luck. I did get it once, but was
> stuck in a 640x480 window which really sucked and made testing
> impossible.
>
> Besides downloading from the Mac store, which I cannot because I don't
> have a mac account, how would you get OS X in a virtualbox? And with
> decent resolution for testing?
>
> Nathan
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1
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> =6A9M
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
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Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

well, considering I have a 2007 vintage white macho and it's left on 24/7 and 
does a great deal (including compiling apps from macports), there shouldn't be 
a problem with your unit (once you have it). I just wish I had a couple of 
grand to afford a new machine here (this one is getting old and I can't upgrade 
the OS from Lion). THe newer ones also have features in voiceover (the screen 
reader I use) that aren't currently available here.

anyway, good luck on your new machine.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Keith Smith wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
> 
> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop and 
> desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move upgrading 
> from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.
> 
> The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do not 
> have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when there 
> is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have a work 
> around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.  JoinMe.com does no 
> work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I use my Windows laptop. 
>  I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.
> 
> Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.
> 
> Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.
> 
> I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.
> 
> In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or 
> 15.4 inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.  I 
> suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.
> 
> My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware 
> that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the 
> MacBook at a slightly discounted price.
> 
> If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in no 
> time.
> 
> The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external 
> monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real 
> estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is 
> with the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone 
> on this list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh rate.
> 
> I think I would find iMovie and Pages useful.  And I could add an iPhone to 
> the mix and utilize those benefits.
> 
> If I buy the Mackbook pro 15.4 inch with 16GB of RAM what would be a 
> reasonable life expectancy in a production environment?  What would I be able 
> to reasonably expect working it 12+ hours a day, day in day?
> 
> Any and every thought is much appreciated.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Keith Smith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

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Re: MacBook

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:30:32 -0700
Keith Smith  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
> 
> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both 
> laptop and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a
> bad move upgrading from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.
> 
> The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.
> I do not have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux
> Mint when there is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch
> correctly. I have a work around, but do not want to have to figure
> this stuff out. JoinMe.com does no work completely on my Linux
> desktop and I need it so I use my Windows laptop.  I can watch but I
> cannot become the presenter.
> 
> Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.

[snip]
 
> If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself
> in no time.

My question is why you post this to a Linux mailing list, instead of a
Mac mailing list? Your mind's made up, why not ask the guys who are
experts on your destination?

What can a Linux list do for you except congratulate you on reaching an
hourly pay level making Linux unaffordable?

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and some 
of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here just 
isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old hardware 
that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make it harder to 
cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X lion and do a full 
linux install on here.

SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
and just about anything else not covered by the above.

SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this device:
upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
support for apps that use GTK, perl, ruby, and other scripts/programming 
languages that can be easily adapted for the blind (hell, all the libraries to 
do this are built in).
enhanced performance (linux still has the lowest overhead of any OS I know of 
other than OpenBSD).
Security (windows still can't touch this!).
access to utilities and applications not readily available on other platforms.
OPEN SORCE
mostly free (or low cost through donation) - I am willing to pay if my budget 
supports it.

now, I have been a long time user of Linux (really since almost its beginnings) 
and also a longtime member of PLUG (one of the original steering committee 
members here!).

Still, there is something to be said for an OS/machine that "just works". I 
just wish apple would hop on the Linux bandwagon and offer an alternative OS 
for those times when OS X seems too bloated.

-Eric (founder of the Technomage Guild)

On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:

> My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no 
> problems. I replaced the hard drive with a Samsung SSD about four years ago 
> only because I wanted the improved performance. The whole system as zero 
> problems.
> 
> My older son is now using my four year old 13" MacBook Air. It has had zero 
> problems except that the battery doesn't hold a charge for more than 2 hours 
> any more. Normal battery wear. That notebook spent four years traveling all 
> over with me, almost every week in my bag going and coming from somewhere. 
> The only physical issue is a few of the keyboard key tops are scratched down 
> from my fingernails.
> 
> I have run Ubuntu and Mint on both of the systems without issue. Though I 
> confess to spending most of my time in OS X.
> 
> I now have a four month old 13" MacBook Air. Has double the RAM of my 
> previous unit. It helps. Buy as much RAM as you can.
> 
> Apple hardware, in my experience, is both beautiful and durable.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Anon Anon  wrote:
> I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a 
> bastardized bsd box.
> 
> I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.
> 
> Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out before hand?
> 
> 
> On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith"  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
> 
> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop and 
> desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs M$ 10.  Was a bad move upgrading 
> from M$7 to M$10... another story for another day.
> 
> The reason for my desired move is I want something that just works.  I do not 
> have the time nor do I have the expertise to maintain Linux Mint when there 
> is an issue.  For instance Dropbox does not launch correctly. I have a work 
> around, but do not want to have to figure this stuff out.  JoinMe.com does no 
> work completely on my Linux desktop and I need it so I use my Windows laptop. 
>  I can watch but I cannot become the presenter.
> 
> Moving to Mac is purely a business decision.
> 
> Up to this point I have bought cheap on sale Dell.
> 
> I also need Virtualbox because I need to develop using PHP 5.6 and PHP 7.
> 
> In doing my research I have narrowed my search to the Macbook Pro 13.3 or 
> 15.4 inch models.  I'm leaning towards the 15.4 since it has 16GB of RAM.  I 
> suspect with the SSD drives these Macs have to sing.
> 
> My shock is the $2000 price tag.  Yikes.  I'm used to cheap dell hardware 
> that I pay $300 to $400 for on sale.  I can see Best Buy is selling the 
> MacBook at a slightly discounted price.
> 
> If I can be just a little more productive the Mac will pay for itself in no 
> time.
> 
> The other thing I like about the Pro is it allows for driving two external 
> monitors.  At the resolution the Pro provides that should be a lot of real 
> estate give the laptop monitor makes 3. The only downside I am aware of is 
> with the external monitors the refresh rate drops to 30Hz.  I think someone 
> on this list brought that up and they did not like that low of a refresh rate.
> 
> I think I would find iMovie 

Re: MacBook

[James Dugger]

Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the
Macbook Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB
SSD for less than $2k.

I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my former
business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.  Linux
just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the desktop
where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was willing
to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.

Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line
laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper
counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to
any of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.

MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only
product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of
the other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better
work in all of the possible environments in which may need to develop.

A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux
list.  How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in
the tens of thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I
could write a book about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option
to have Linux as a viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case,
ironically in a company that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:

> yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and
> some of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here
> just isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old
> hardware that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make
> it harder to cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X
> lion and do a full linux install on here.
>
> SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
> keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
> apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
> easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
> and just about anything else not covered by the above.
>
> SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this
> device:
> upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
> support for apps that use GTK, perl, ruby, and other scripts/programming
> languages that can be easily adapted for the blind (hell, all the libraries
> to do this are built in).
> enhanced performance (linux still has the lowest overhead of any OS I know
> of other than OpenBSD).
> Security (windows still can't touch this!).
> access to utilities and applications not readily available on other
> platforms.
> OPEN SORCE
> mostly free (or low cost through donation) - I am willing to pay if my
> budget supports it.
>
> now, I have been a long time user of Linux (really since almost its
> beginnings) and also a longtime member of PLUG (one of the original
> steering committee members here!).
>
> Still, there is something to be said for an OS/machine that "just works".
> I just wish apple would hop on the Linux bandwagon and offer an alternative
> OS for those times when OS X seems too bloated.
>
> -Eric (founder of the Technomage Guild)
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:
>
> My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no
> problems. I replaced the hard drive with a Samsung SSD about four years ago
> only because I wanted the improved performance. The whole system as zero
> problems.
>
> My older son is now using my four year old 13" MacBook Air. It has had
> zero problems except that the battery doesn't hold a charge for more than 2
> hours any more. Normal battery wear. That notebook spent four years
> traveling all over with me, almost every week in my bag going and coming
> from somewhere. The only physical issue is a few of the keyboard key tops
> are scratched down from my fingernails.
>
> I have run Ubuntu and Mint on both of the systems without issue. Though I
> confess to spending most of my time in OS X.
>
> I now have a four month old 13" MacBook Air. Has double the RAM of my
> previous unit. It helps. Buy as much RAM as you can.
>
> Apple hardware, in my experience, is both beautiful and durable.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Anon Anon  wrote:
>
>> I have a MacBook pro I use at work. It's a Mac. It'll work. It's a
>> bastardized bsd box.
>>
>> I haven't turned mine off in months. If you need a Mac, buy it.
>>
>> Why not try running mac os in a virtual box machine to try it out before
>> hand?
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016 08:54, "Keith Smith"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm strongly considering buying a Macbook pro.
>>
>> I'm a LAMP (PHP) developer.  Currently I use Mint on a Dell.  Both laptop
>> and desktop. I do have a Dell laptop that runs 

Re: MacBook

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

I would seriously consider getting older MacBook Pro (2013). If you compare the 
specs there is not too much difference. You can get some good deals off of 
Craigslist. 

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=macbook+pro+2013&sort=rel

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger  wrote:
> 
> Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the Macbook 
> Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB SSD for less 
> than $2k.
> 
> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my former 
> business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.  Linux 
> just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the desktop 
> where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was willing 
> to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.
> 
> Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line 
> laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper 
> counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to 
> any of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.
> 
> MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only 
> product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of 
> the other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better 
> work in all of the possible environments in which may need to develop. 
> 
> A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux list. 
>  How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in the tens 
> of thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I could write a 
> book about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option to have Linux 
> as a viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case, ironically in a 
> company that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and 
>> some of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here 
>> just isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old 
>> hardware that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make 
>> it harder to cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X 
>> lion and do a full linux install on here.
>> 
>> SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
>> keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
>> apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
>> easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
>> and just about anything else not covered by the above.
>> 
>> SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this device:
>> upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
>> support for apps that use GTK, perl, ruby, and other scripts/programming 
>> languages that can be easily adapted for the blind (hell, all the libraries 
>> to do this are built in).
>> enhanced performance (linux still has the lowest overhead of any OS I know 
>> of other than OpenBSD).
>> Security (windows still can't touch this!).
>> access to utilities and applications not readily available on other 
>> platforms.
>> OPEN SORCE
>> mostly free (or low cost through donation) - I am willing to pay if my 
>> budget supports it.
>> 
>> now, I have been a long time user of Linux (really since almost its 
>> beginnings) and also a longtime member of PLUG (one of the original steering 
>> committee members here!).
>> 
>> Still, there is something to be said for an OS/machine that "just works". I 
>> just wish apple would hop on the Linux bandwagon and offer an alternative OS 
>> for those times when OS X seems too bloated.
>> 
>> -Eric (founder of the Technomage Guild)
>> 
>>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:
>>> 
>>> My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no 
>>> problems. I replaced the hard drive with a Samsung SSD about four years ago 
>>> only because I wanted the improved performance. The whole system as zero 
>>> problems.
>>> 
>>> My older son is now using my four year old 13" MacBook Air. It has had zero 
>>> problems except that the battery doesn't hold a charge for more than 2 
>>> hours any more. Normal battery wear. That notebook spent four years 
>>> traveling all over with me, almost every week in my bag going and coming 
>>> from somewhere. The only physical issue is a few of the keyboard key tops 
>>> are scratched down from my fingernails.
>>> 
>>> I have run Ubuntu and Mint on both of the systems without issue. Though I 
>>> confess to spending most of my time in OS X.
>>> 
>>> I now have a four month old 13" MacBook Air. Has double the RAM of my 
>>> previous unit. It helps. Buy as much RAM as you can.
>>> 
>>> Apple hardware, in my experience, is both beautiful and durable.
>>> 
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:05 PM, An

Re: MacBook

[Michael Butash]

  
  
I would tend to disagree here.  As a
  business owner for a few years and a full-time linux user for 10+
  years, I've really not had any reason still to go back.  I do my
  own accounting and time management with Freshbooks/Xero, payroll
  with Gusto, LibreOffice for all docs, master pdf editor for
  editing pdf's (go figure), Gimp for images, Dialpad for
  voice/acd/ivr, UberConference for audio
  conferencing/collaboration, and gapps for most everything else.
  
  The only things I do in windoze is customers that insist on using
  crappy conferencing like webex/gotomeeting, visio for
  network/application design documents, and that's it.  I call it my
  visio hypervisor as I usually just run vbox windoze in seamless,
  just pretending windoze isn't there.
  
  Linux is fairly viable for enterprise use imho too, probably more
  so than the idiots that would be forced to use them.  I had a
  short stint returning to an old employer here, where like most,
  run windoze for everything desktop-y, and I ran linux on my laptop
  there mostly OK.  Worst issues for me were generally using
  pam-mount for automounting windoze dfs shares (homedirs, doc dirs,
  etc), wired/wireless network transition with said mounting (kernel
  freaking out when cifs would disconnect shares), and the fact
  companies still insist on using crappy products like office365
  that don't work for anything but windoze.  I actually began
  organizing internally other stealth linux users (tampering with
  the os there was a fireable offense, f-em) and documenting howto's
  in conflucence to function in the wild.
  
  Macs in the enterprise were worse.  There I had been in charge of
  wireless for a bit, so I had to test macs and was given one to use
  as all the new management cronies flooding in insisted on them. 
  Nothing "just worked", especially when you start talking AD
  integration, certs, wireless, etc, and macs quickly became the
  bain of my existence there to support on the network.  Apple was
  useless to support any real enterprise integration as well.  I
  unaffectionately referred to them as shiny speak-n-spells jammed
  into the enterprise world.
  
  Aside from that, Outlook/Lync products were garbage for mac, which
  M$ execs themselves told us it would never not suck, as it might
  create competition, otherwise I just used Libre to replace crappy
  word/excel.  Every application I needed to function cost
  something, and usually absurdly priced.  I am not used to having
  to pay for anything having used linux for so long, and just
  nauseated me with a constant up sell.  Top off that their hardware
  is usually older/slower anyways, I really didn't see why people
  like them.  It genuinely frustrated me to use that it just sat in
  my desk.
  
  So yeah, I call bullocks on the mac for anything other than a
  status symbol, but whatever floats your boat.
  
  -mb
  
  
  On 08/24/2016 05:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:


  

  I switched from
  Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my
  former business only to switch the desktops to Apple
  products from Linux.  Linux just doesn't have parody in
  new application implementations on the desktop where it
  mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was
  willing to hang out in Linux until someone got around to
  making it work.
  

  


  

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Re: MacBook

[Herminio Hernandez, Jr.]

You make some really great points. I can attest in an enterprise
environment MacOS is a pain. Lync integration and corporate wireless is
such a challenge. Esp when you need to import MS Certs for AD
authentication. I use Linux at work and so far I can get 90% of my work
done. Anything else I have Win10 in VB.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:

> I would tend to disagree here.  As a business owner for a few years and a
> full-time linux user for 10+ years, I've really not had any reason still to
> go back.  I do my own accounting and time management with Freshbooks/Xero,
> payroll with Gusto, LibreOffice for all docs, master pdf editor for editing
> pdf's (go figure), Gimp for images, Dialpad for voice/acd/ivr,
> UberConference for audio conferencing/collaboration, and gapps for most
> everything else.
>
> The only things I do in windoze is customers that insist on using crappy
> conferencing like webex/gotomeeting, visio for network/application design
> documents, and that's it.  I call it my visio hypervisor as I usually just
> run vbox windoze in seamless, just pretending windoze isn't there.
>
> Linux is fairly viable for enterprise use imho too, probably more so than
> the idiots that would be forced to use them.  I had a short stint returning
> to an old employer here, where like most, run windoze for everything
> desktop-y, and I ran linux on my laptop there mostly OK.  Worst issues for
> me were generally using pam-mount for automounting windoze dfs shares
> (homedirs, doc dirs, etc), wired/wireless network transition with said
> mounting (kernel freaking out when cifs would disconnect shares), and the
> fact companies still insist on using crappy products like office365 that
> don't work for anything but windoze.  I actually began organizing
> internally other stealth linux users (tampering with the os there was a
> fireable offense, f-em) and documenting howto's in conflucence to function
> in the wild.
>
> Macs in the enterprise were worse.  There I had been in charge of wireless
> for a bit, so I had to test macs and was given one to use as all the new
> management cronies flooding in insisted on them.  Nothing "just worked",
> especially when you start talking AD integration, certs, wireless, etc, and
> macs quickly became the bain of my existence there to support on the
> network.  Apple was useless to support any real enterprise integration as
> well.  I unaffectionately referred to them as shiny speak-n-spells jammed
> into the enterprise world.
>
> Aside from that, Outlook/Lync products were garbage for mac, which M$
> execs themselves told us it would never not suck, as it might create
> competition, otherwise I just used Libre to replace crappy word/excel.
> Every application I needed to function cost something, and usually absurdly
> priced.  I am not used to having to pay for anything having used linux for
> so long, and just nauseated me with a constant up sell.  Top off that their
> hardware is usually older/slower anyways, I really didn't see why people
> like them.  It genuinely frustrated me to use that it just sat in my desk.
>
> So yeah, I call bullocks on the mac for anything other than a status
> symbol, but whatever floats your boat.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On 08/24/2016 05:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:
>
> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my
> former business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.
> Linux just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the
> desktop where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was
> willing to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.
>
>
>
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> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
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Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)

At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be considered to be a 
viable desktop production environment.

can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full office 
suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what about some of the 
other mainstream office and production apps? are there many equivalents or 
direct replacements? THis is the primary problem I have seen with linux over 
the years. great OS support, but lousy where it counts.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:

> Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the Macbook 
> Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB SSD for less 
> than $2k.
> 
> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my former 
> business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.  Linux 
> just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the desktop 
> where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was willing 
> to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.
> 
> Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line 
> laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper 
> counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to 
> any of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.
> 
> MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only 
> product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of 
> the other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better 
> work in all of the possible environments in which may need to develop. 
> 
> A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux list. 
>  How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in the tens 
> of thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I could write a 
> book about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option to have Linux 
> as a viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case, ironically in a 
> company that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
> yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and 
> some of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here 
> just isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old 
> hardware that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make it 
> harder to cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X lion 
> and do a full linux install on here.
> 
> SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
> keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
> apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
> easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
> and just about anything else not covered by the above.
> 
> SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this device:
> upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
> support for apps that use GTK, perl, ruby, and other scripts/programming 
> languages that can be easily adapted for the blind (hell, all the libraries 
> to do this are built in).
> enhanced performance (linux still has the lowest overhead of any OS I know of 
> other than OpenBSD).
> Security (windows still can't touch this!).
> access to utilities and applications not readily available on other platforms.
> OPEN SORCE
> mostly free (or low cost through donation) - I am willing to pay if my budget 
> supports it.
> 
> now, I have been a long time user of Linux (really since almost its 
> beginnings) and also a longtime member of PLUG (one of the original steering 
> committee members here!).
> 
> Still, there is something to be said for an OS/machine that "just works". I 
> just wish apple would hop on the Linux bandwagon and offer an alternative OS 
> for those times when OS X seems too bloated.
> 
> -Eric (founder of the Technomage Guild)
> 
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:
> 
>> My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no 
>> problems. I replaced the hard drive with a Samsung SSD about four years ago 
>> only because I wanted the improved performance. The whole system as zero 
>> problems.
>> 
>> My older son is now using my four year old 13" MacBook Air. It has had zero 
>> problems except that the battery doesn't hold a charge for more than 2 hours 
>> any more. Normal battery wear. That notebook spent four years traveling all 
>> over with me, almost every week in my bag going and coming from somewhere. 
>> The only physical issue is a few of the keyboard key tops are scratched down 
>> from my fingernails.
>> 
>> I have run Ubuntu and Mint on both of the systems without issue. Though I 
>> confess to spending most of my time in OS X.
>> 
>> I now have a four month old 

Re: MacBook

[Herminio Hernandez, Jr.]

I would not go that far. LibreOffice has made some great strides. I use it
at work where everyone else uses MS and only one person could tell I was
not using MS. A lot of what you mention are really niche situations. Most
people in the workplace need a browser, email, and office suite. Linux
offers that well. Also considering that a lot of work is moving to the
cloud and is web based, Linux has more a level playing field. Office 365
can be run on LInux if you needed MS for your work flow. You can one
windows server with Quicken or Quickbooks and access via RDP using Remmina.
I just do not think Linux is as lousy situation as you describe. There are
viable workarounds.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:

> who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)
>
> At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be considered to
> be a viable desktop production environment.
>
> can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full
> office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what about
> some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are there many
> equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary problem I have seen
> with linux over the years. great OS support, but lousy where it counts.
>
> -eric
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:
>
> Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the
> Macbook Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB
> SSD for less than $2k.
>
> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my
> former business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.
> Linux just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the
> desktop where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was
> willing to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.
>
> Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line
> laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper
> counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to
> any of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.
>
> MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only
> product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of
> the other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better
> work in all of the possible environments in which may need to develop.
>
> A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux
> list.  How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in
> the tens of thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I
> could write a book about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option
> to have Linux as a viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case,
> ironically in a company that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>
>> yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and
>> some of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here
>> just isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old
>> hardware that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make
>> it harder to cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X
>> lion and do a full linux install on here.
>>
>> SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
>> keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
>> apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
>> easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
>> and just about anything else not covered by the above.
>>
>> SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this
>> device:
>> upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
>> support for apps that use GTK, perl, ruby, and other scripts/programming
>> languages that can be easily adapted for the blind (hell, all the libraries
>> to do this are built in).
>> enhanced performance (linux still has the lowest overhead of any OS I
>> know of other than OpenBSD).
>> Security (windows still can't touch this!).
>> access to utilities and applications not readily available on other
>> platforms.
>> OPEN SORCE
>> mostly free (or low cost through donation) - I am willing to pay if my
>> budget supports it.
>>
>> now, I have been a long time user of Linux (really since almost its
>> beginnings) and also a longtime member of PLUG (one of the original
>> steering committee members here!).
>>
>> Still, there is something to be said for an OS/machine that "just works".
>> I just wish apple would hop on the Linux bandwagon and offer an alternative
>> OS for those times when OS X seems too bloated.
>>
>> -Eric (founder of the Technomage Guild)
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Alan Dayley wrote:
>>
>> My younger son is still using my five year old 15" MacBook Pro. It has no
>> problems. 

Re: MacBook

[Michael Butash]

I found quicken to be pretty lame for the minute I tried it with a 
former accountant, and found it really didn't do anything I couldn't get 
in Xero accounting suite, a web-based product.  Far better integration 
as well with other apps like expensify and freshbooks.


I ended up with both Xero and Freshbooks as both have ups and downs, 
where freshbooks is awesome for invoicing, accounting, creates customer 
portals automatically to view work history, bills received/paid, etc, 
Xero is better at general ledger management and methodology.  Quicken 
seemed more like the old slug GM-like company product that is too big to 
fail (doing everyone a favor), as using even the enterprise version I 
wanted to stab myself in the eye.  There was nothing I missed from 
Quicken, and a whole lot more to love with others.


I've operated as a consultant in dozens of orgs across the years with 
linux, and I never found anything that couldn't be accomplished in linux 
really, minus a good visio replacement.  The only problem is when they 
just use garbage like lync and quicken is that is a vendor lock-in to 
micro$oft anyways.


Solution: Replace them.  I did, it is possible.

-mb


On 08/24/2016 08:22 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:

who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)

At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be 
considered to be a viable desktop production environment.


can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full 
office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what 
about some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are 
there many equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary 
problem I have seen with linux over the years. great OS support, but 
lousy where it counts.


-eric


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Re: MacBook

[Victor D Odhner]

I retired from my *nix work early 2013 and have left technical projects for 
people activities. I have used a Macbook Pro since then, and love it for 
portability and ruggedness - yay SSD!, I've fumbled it a few times when 
running, once on concrete, keeps on ticking. I have not been a developer in 
that environment, yet have noted several little breaks in compatibility that 
could trip you up. I'm sure there are web sites discussing that.

I still visit my mint/mate desktop periodically as my "real home." I also use a 
Mac Mini at church running music apps, and that was a great and affordable 
choice.

We have bought the extended warranty and I enjoyed several consultations at the 
Genius Bar, for other Macs in the family; now those are mostly replaced by 
Windows boxes, largely second hand. (I use Computers&? -- "Computers And 
Questions" -- on Tatum south of Bell, true geeks who give solid service on 
not-new boxes for not-rich clients.)

Remember that Mac is a culture, designed for people with a twitter attention 
span. Apple cares not at all about making this work with other brands. Like M$ 
and Google, they want to own you. They nag you to take new OS updates, adding 
features for better one-ness with all your other Apple toys (I have none) and 
possibly breaking geek-critical functions. And remember how Motorola users were 
abandoned when they switched to Intel.

So while a Macbook *is* great in a lot of ways, doing nice glossy things and 
looking a lot like home when you're on the command line, you might want to keep 
a Linux system warmed up to host some basic functions that Apple can't make 
money on and therefore won't mind screwing up.

Good luck.



 Original message From: Eric Oyen 
 Date:2016/08/24  20:22  (GMT-07:00) 
To: Main PLUG discussion list  
Subject: Re: MacBook 
who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)

At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be considered to be a 
viable desktop production environment.

can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full office 
suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what about some of the 
other mainstream office and production apps? are there many equivalents or 
direct replacements? THis is the primary problem I have seen with linux over 
the years. great OS support, but lousy where it counts.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:

Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the Macbook 
Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB SSD for less 
than $2k.

I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my former 
business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.  Linux just 
doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the desktop where it 
mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was willing to hang out 
in Linux until someone got around to making it work.

Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line laptops 
in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper 
counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to any 
of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.

MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only 
product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of the 
other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better work in 
all of the possible environments in which may need to develop. 

A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux list.  
How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in the tens of 
thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I could write a book 
about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option to have Linux as a 
viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case, ironically in a company 
that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and some 
of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here just 
isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old hardware 
that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make it harder to 
cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X lion and do a full 
linux install on here.

SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
and just about anything else not covered by the above.

SOme things I am looking forward to as I transition to Linux on this device:
upgraded applications capable of new and interesting things
support for apps t

Re: MacBook

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 20:22:09 -0700
Eric Oyen  wrote:

> who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)
> 
> At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be
> considered to be a viable desktop production environment.
> 
> can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full
> office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what
> about some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are
> there many equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary
> problem I have seen with linux over the years. great OS support, but
> lousy where it counts.

So I assume you're here only for the server aspects of Linux.

Anyway, a lot of small businesses don't require the use of Peachtree or
Quicken. Heck, I go to the accountant every year and make it his
problem. I can track book sales in a simple database. Some things I
track in Gnumeric: You'd be surprised how you can write Python programs
to make info in Gnumeric spreadsheets come alive.

Office suites? Libre's good enough to write a business letter, and if
you're writing anything longer, neither Libre nor MSWord nor anything
of that classification is what you need. I can tell you that first
hand: I write and sell books. I happen to use LyX, but I think there
are better tools and will soon switch (or perhaps make my own tool).

I can see where people who can't write a Python program or use a few
power-user tricks wouldn't be able to do business activities on a Linux
desktop, but who here fits that description?

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

yeah. try using Libre Office with ORCA screen reader. Believe me, it's not 
pleasant (and thats putting it mildly).

recently, I was trained on the use of jaws (for a screen reader for windows) 
and I was also trained in most of the more common controls used in MS office. 
Mind you, that damned ribbon is a PITA to navigate. However, once I got the 
hang of things, it became easy.

I cannot say the same for Libre Office as some of the keys wouldn't work 
strictly by keyboard. The text editor portion was ok, but as soon as I hit the 
spreadsheet, things got bad in a hurry.

I have tried contacting the devs on both teams (ORCA and Libre Office) and they 
keep pointing fingers at each other instead of actually looking at the 
accessibility libraries included in Linux. so, guess where that leaves me in an 
office environment? using either windows or Mac. I got so frustrated with their 
lack of action that I have ceased use of Libre Office entirely about a year 
ago. So, unless they have changed their tune since then, it is unlikely that I 
will ever be able to use the more advanced features in that office package. too 
bad as it was looking like a nice alternative to MS Office.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 8:41 PM, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:

> I would not go that far. LibreOffice has made some great strides. I use it at 
> work where everyone else uses MS and only one person could tell I was not 
> using MS. A lot of what you mention are really niche situations. Most people 
> in the workplace need a browser, email, and office suite. Linux offers that 
> well. Also considering that a lot of work is moving to the cloud and is web 
> based, Linux has more a level playing field. Office 365 can be run on LInux 
> if you needed MS for your work flow. You can one windows server with Quicken 
> or Quickbooks and access via RDP using Remmina. I just do not think Linux is 
> as lousy situation as you describe. There are viable workarounds.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
> who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)
> 
> At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be considered to be 
> a viable desktop production environment.
> 
> can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full office 
> suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what about some of 
> the other mainstream office and production apps? are there many equivalents 
> or direct replacements? THis is the primary problem I have seen with linux 
> over the years. great OS support, but lousy where it counts.
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:
> 
>> Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with the 
>> Macbook Pro.  Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and a 500GB SSD 
>> for less than $2k.
>> 
>> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my former 
>> business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from Linux.  Linux 
>> just doesn't have parody in new application implementations on the desktop 
>> where it mattered.  And I  haven't met a business owner yet who was willing 
>> to hang out in Linux until someone got around to making it work.
>> 
>> Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional line 
>> laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than their cheaper 
>> counterparts.  The MacBook Pro is no different and is comparably priced to 
>> any of these lines when you spec the stuff inside.
>> 
>> MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the only 
>> product on which you can easily build a development environment for any of 
>> the other environments.  If your going to spend $2k on a laptop it better 
>> work in all of the possible environments in which may need to develop. 
>> 
>> A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a Linux 
>> list.  How about this - I love Linux and develop products that are used in 
>> the tens of thousands of Linux instances in my company everyday... but I 
>> could write a book about how frustrating it is that I don't have the option 
>> to have Linux as a viable OS option on the desktop in a business use case, 
>> ironically in a company that is central to the use of Linux in an industry.
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the software and 
>> some of the apps are no longer supported and getting anything newer on here 
>> just isn't going to happen. where does this leave me? well, stuck on old 
>> hardware that is becoming less and less useful as apps and web design make 
>> it harder to cope. At some point, I just might decide to put paid to OS X 
>> lion and do a full linux install on here.
>> 
>> SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
>> keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
>> apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
>> easy to use inter

Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

ugh!
troubleshooting? I have done enough of that over the years trying to get 
programs to compile. what I hate is sloppy coding (which is responsible for 
most breakages in compiles). I have also troubleshooted enough to know that I 
am not a coder. I have to look up a lot of stuff, and when you have ears and 
fingers only to read with, that gets old in a very big hurry). btw, try 
learning computer raille. It's rules are a lot different from standard literary 
Braille. I have to keep those in mind a lot when reading code or formulas.

Its the same for keystrokes between screen readers (for instance, jaws and 
voiceover). only problem is, braille is a hell of a lot more complicated than 
some keystrokes.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:29 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 20:22:09 -0700
> Eric Oyen  wrote:
> 
>> who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)
>> 
>> At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be
>> considered to be a viable desktop production environment.
>> 
>> can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full
>> office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what
>> about some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are
>> there many equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary
>> problem I have seen with linux over the years. great OS support, but
>> lousy where it counts.
> 
> So I assume you're here only for the server aspects of Linux.
> 
> Anyway, a lot of small businesses don't require the use of Peachtree or
> Quicken. Heck, I go to the accountant every year and make it his
> problem. I can track book sales in a simple database. Some things I
> track in Gnumeric: You'd be surprised how you can write Python programs
> to make info in Gnumeric spreadsheets come alive.
> 
> Office suites? Libre's good enough to write a business letter, and if
> you're writing anything longer, neither Libre nor MSWord nor anything
> of that classification is what you need. I can tell you that first
> hand: I write and sell books. I happen to use LyX, but I think there
> are better tools and will soon switch (or perhaps make my own tool).
> 
> I can see where people who can't write a Python program or use a few
> power-user tricks wouldn't be able to do business activities on a Linux
> desktop, but who here fits that description?
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
>  Brand new, second edition
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

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Re: MacBook

[Keith Smith]

Scroll.

On 2016-08-24 21:14, Victor D Odhner wrote:

I retired from my *nix work early 2013 and have left technical
projects for people activities. I have used a Macbook Pro since then,
and love it for portability and ruggedness - yay SSD!, I've fumbled it
a few times when running, once on concrete, keeps on ticking. I have
not been a developer in that environment, yet have noted several
little breaks in compatibility that could trip you up. I'm sure there
are web sites discussing that.

I still visit my mint/mate desktop periodically as my "real home." I
also use a Mac Mini at church running music apps, and that was a great
and affordable choice.

We have bought the extended warranty and I enjoyed several
consultations at the Genius Bar, for other Macs in the family; now
those are mostly replaced by Windows boxes, largely second hand. (I
use Computers&? -- "Computers And Questions" -- on Tatum south of
Bell, true geeks who give solid service on not-new boxes for not-rich
clients.)

Remember that Mac is a culture, designed for people with a twitter
attention span. Apple cares not at all about making this work with
other brands. Like M$ and Google, they want to own you. They nag you
to take new OS updates, adding features for better one-ness with all
your other Apple toys (I have none) and possibly breaking
geek-critical functions. And remember how Motorola users were
abandoned when they switched to Intel.



I wrote a research paper on Apple in about 1989.  That was when I 
learned Apple had twice failed to be backward compatible during 
upgrades.  That and the cost kept me away from Apple way back then.







So while a Macbook *is* great in a lot of ways, doing nice glossy
things and looking a lot like home when you're on the command line,
you might want to keep a Linux system warmed up to host some basic
functions that Apple can't make money on and therefore won't mind
screwing up.

Good luck.

 Original message 
From: Eric Oyen
Date:2016/08/24 20:22 (GMT-07:00)
To: Main PLUG discussion list

Subject: Re: MacBook

who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)

At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be
considered to be a viable desktop production environment.

can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full
office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what
about some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are
there many equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary
problem I have seen with linux over the years. great OS support, but
lousy where it counts.

-eric

On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:


Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with
the Macbook Pro. Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and
a 500GB SSD for less than $2k.

I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my
former business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from
Linux. Linux just doesn't have parody in new application
implementations on the desktop where it mattered. And I haven't met
a business owner yet who was willing to hang out in Linux until
someone got around to making it work.

Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional
line laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than
their cheaper counterparts. The MacBook Pro is no different and is
comparably priced to any of these lines when you spec the stuff
inside.

MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the
only product on which you can easily build a development environment
for any of the other environments. If your going to spend $2k on a
laptop it better work in all of the possible environments in which
may need to develop.

A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a
Linux list. How about this - I love Linux and develop products that
are used in the tens of thousands of Linux instances in my company
everyday... but I could write a book about how frustrating it is
that I don't have the option to have Linux as a viable OS option on
the desktop in a business use case, ironically in a company that is
central to the use of Linux in an industry.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Eric Oyen 
wrote:

yes, as my old 2007 whitebook can attest. unfortunately, the
software and some of the apps are no longer supported and getting
anything newer on here just isn't going to happen. where does this
leave me? well, stuck on old hardware that is becoming less and less
useful as apps and web design make it harder to cope. At some point,
I just might decide to put paid to OS X lion and do a full linux
install on here.

SOme of the features of OS X that I will miss:
keychains (this password vault has been a lifesaver)
apps that "just work" without having to tweak or prod.
easy to use interface for the blind (voiceover)
and just a

Re: MacBook

[Brien Dieterle]

Enough said. "Natural" scroll is an abomination.

On Aug 25, 2016 6:16 PM, "Keith Smith"  wrote:

>
>
> Scroll.
>
> On 2016-08-24 21:14, Victor D Odhner wrote:
>
>> I retired from my *nix work early 2013 and have left technical
>> projects for people activities. I have used a Macbook Pro since then,
>> and love it for portability and ruggedness - yay SSD!, I've fumbled it
>> a few times when running, once on concrete, keeps on ticking. I have
>> not been a developer in that environment, yet have noted several
>> little breaks in compatibility that could trip you up. I'm sure there
>> are web sites discussing that.
>>
>> I still visit my mint/mate desktop periodically as my "real home." I
>> also use a Mac Mini at church running music apps, and that was a great
>> and affordable choice.
>>
>> We have bought the extended warranty and I enjoyed several
>> consultations at the Genius Bar, for other Macs in the family; now
>> those are mostly replaced by Windows boxes, largely second hand. (I
>> use Computers&? -- "Computers And Questions" -- on Tatum south of
>> Bell, true geeks who give solid service on not-new boxes for not-rich
>> clients.)
>>
>> Remember that Mac is a culture, designed for people with a twitter
>> attention span. Apple cares not at all about making this work with
>> other brands. Like M$ and Google, they want to own you. They nag you
>> to take new OS updates, adding features for better one-ness with all
>> your other Apple toys (I have none) and possibly breaking
>> geek-critical functions. And remember how Motorola users were
>> abandoned when they switched to Intel.
>>
>
>
> I wrote a research paper on Apple in about 1989.  That was when I learned
> Apple had twice failed to be backward compatible during upgrades.  That and
> the cost kept me away from Apple way back then.
>
>
>
>
>
>> So while a Macbook *is* great in a lot of ways, doing nice glossy
>> things and looking a lot like home when you're on the command line,
>> you might want to keep a Linux system warmed up to host some basic
>> functions that Apple can't make money on and therefore won't mind
>> screwing up.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Eric Oyen
>> Date:2016/08/24 20:22 (GMT-07:00)
>> To: Main PLUG discussion list
>>
>> Subject: Re: MacBook
>>
>> who was screaming that the post was irrelevant? I certainly wasn't. :)
>>
>> At the end of the day, Linux still needs a lot of work to be
>> considered to be a viable desktop production environment.
>>
>> can you get quicken for linux? what about Peachtree? How about a full
>> office suite that can do the same things that MS office can do? what
>> about some of the other mainstream office and production apps? are
>> there many equivalents or direct replacements? THis is the primary
>> problem I have seen with linux over the years. great OS support, but
>> lousy where it counts.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:24 PM, James Dugger wrote:
>>
>> Short answer: Regarding Business productivity - My advice go with
>>> the Macbook Pro. Also I believe you can get a 13-inch with 16GB and
>>> a 500GB SSD for less than $2k.
>>>
>>> I switched from Microsoft to Linux on all servers and desktops in my
>>> former business only to switch the desktops to Apple products from
>>> Linux. Linux just doesn't have parody in new application
>>> implementations on the desktop where it mattered. And I haven't met
>>> a business owner yet who was willing to hang out in Linux until
>>> someone got around to making it work.
>>>
>>> Regarding the cost - My experience is the any of the professional
>>> line laptops in any brand end up with a unit cost of use less than
>>> their cheaper counterparts. The MacBook Pro is no different and is
>>> comparably priced to any of these lines when you spec the stuff
>>> inside.
>>>
>>> MacBook Pro is the developers choice because at any price it is the
>>> only product on which you can easily build a development environment
>>> for any of the other environments. If your going to spend $2k on a
>>> laptop it better work in all of the possible environments in which
>>> may need to develop.
>>>
>>> A question was asked regarding the relevance of posting this to a
>>> Linux list. How about this - I love Linux and develop products that
>

Re: MacBook

[Eric Oyen]

hmm.
that sounds like a bad situation all around. getting fired for not being able 
to do a job because the job couldn't be done due to a software breakage? that 
has all the earmarks of a n unjustifiable termination lawsuit to me.

anyway, it doesn't seem to matter what platform it is, there are issues with 
security updates that tend to break other things.

Now, I know there is a simple solution to this problem, but every time I try to 
put thought to paper (or E-paper in this case), I run into the devil in the 
details.

Now, one of the items I have noticed about OS X and it's ability to just work 
is this:
each application (which turns out to be an executable folder) contains not only 
the core application, but any libraries and other needed items to make it 
function. this means that the system doesn't have to manage those (unlike 
windows, where all the dynamically linked libraries are managed by the OS). 
THis method seems (I won't say that it does actually) to have far less 
breakages than windows (or even some more specialized apps in Linux). 

Unfortuately, there are just some security updates (at the kernel level) that 
will always end up breaking things elsewhere. To me, this sounds like increased 
testing and simulation are needed to weed out the bugs (oh wait! we have that! 
it's called the user base).

SOme of us, like me, just aren't coders (I have long since left that behind as 
there were just too many changes to try and keep up with) but we can still make 
decent testers.

anyway, it sounds to me like we need to adopt some of the apple method here. 
Instead of having system level libraries that handle the heavy lifting, that 
each app  have it all compiled in. This should cut down on a lot of issues, 
although it might introduce others.

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:50 PM, Michael Butash wrote:

> I've gotten to the point I don't update/reboot my os until I need to.  I 
> tried to keep up with security patches, and ended up breaking my system every 
> other week.  Usually because of crappy amd video drivers, but often far more 
> obscure things would just sort of freak out with an update. My work laptop I 
> update every 6 months it seems, but I never put it on a public 
> (non-firewall/nat) network either.
> 
> This isn't exactly an ideal situation, and isn't pretty when it comes to 
> linux, but the flip side is I don't have to deal with worse atrocities, such 
> as windoze.
> 
> Case in point:  My roommate works for Amazon as a remote CS agent, and she 
> will go days regularly with being unable to work, much for the same reason.  
> Why?  Windoze updated and broke all their custom, and commercial software.  
> Windoze 10 anniversary updates have apparently single-handedly broken all 
> their apps, which forced her to buy a new pc just to not be fired after her 
> weekend.  She logged in, and it told her they'd fix it in a week, mean time 
> her clock is ticking to being fired.  Thanks Amazon and Microsoft, such 
> wonderful companies.
> 
> My vitriol toward microsoft is not exactly unfounded imho.  Having dealt with 
> the guts of it for 20 years now, seeing their blatant abuse and ignorance 
> toward security, I know enough to simply avoid+mock it, and I'll happily take 
> my knocks in something like linux vs. paying for the knocks adding insult to 
> injury.  People that do use windoze and mac really don't seem to suffer any 
> less, but they do get some shiny new video game or free music every week to 
> distract them from hating life.
> 
> -mb
> 
> 
> On 08/25/2016 06:13 PM, Keith Smith wrote:
>> Thank you everyone for all your feedback.
>> 
>> At the Drupal Code Camp here in Phoenix a couple years ago all I saw was 
>> Macs. Developers seem to like Macs.  Maybe it has to do with having a Unix 
>> operating system that just works.
>> 
>> I'm not disparaging Linux. It just takes a lot of knowledge to run Linux as 
>> your desktop O/S.  I've done so for over 2 years and I really like Linux 
>> Mint.  I'm just at a point where I want to spend less time maintaining my 
>> computer and focus more on development.
>> 
>> Again thank you for all the feedback! 
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Re: MacBook

[Michael Butash]

I remember trying the static compile approach back circa 2000 with linux 
and slackware.  After I'd learned Solaris, and why to hate it (making 
gnu software compile on it to not be a useless/costly linux), a buddy 
got me into Slackware, helping me install it, and how to compile a 
kernel and source.  I began compiling everything static as possible, 
particularly the kernel, and when I began growing/exploring/learning, it 
was just a constant "recompile this for this, recompile that for this 
too, and 50 other things".  I learned why that was a bad idea pretty 
quickly.


I moved to Freebsd shortly thereafter, tried compling everything, and 
found that didn't work well either once you have to jump releases.  I 
already hated RedHat by that time with RPM-hell (pre yum, debatable if 
better after), and tried everything from mandrake to suse, finally 
landing on ubuntu that combined with debian apt, made shared libs 
somewhat manageable.  Ten years later, even with effort to leave Ubuntu, 
I'm still here, and remains the most painless, even though pain still 
comes a plenty.


Again, I see pain in every os, particularly still windoze in this day 
and age, where for crying out loud with daily patches for the past 20 
years, you'd think could figure out how the game works as a direct 
result of their incessantly poor security.  A week to fix a bad patch 
for a major security service pack release!?  People are getting fired 
for it, quite literally - why would any enterprise trust them in good 
conscience?


And yeah, Amazon.  Fund lawyers, sue them for being dirtbags, spend 2 
years in court, and after lawyer fees get $200 dollars for passing go 
and wasting exponentially more effort than attributable to lost wages.  
At this point I tell her she just needs to find a not crappy company 
that respects their employees to work for, but yeah, dubiously legally 
otherwise.  For a technology company, the CS side of things is 
apparently dysfunctional as all get out.


A buddy was trying to get me to move to Seattle to work with AWS...  I 
used this on-going story as a reason why not to even try.  Even he was a 
bit stunned.


-mb


On 08/25/2016 08:55 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:

anyway, it sounds to me like we need to adopt some of the apple method here. 
Instead of having system level libraries that handle the heavy lifting, that 
each app  have it all compiled in. This should cut down on a lot of issues, 
although it might introduce others.

-eric


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Re: MacBook

[Stephen Partington]

I have to say. If an update breaks your key software then you need to
manage your damned updates. All os' have the ability to do this. Just
implement it already.

On Aug 25, 2016 9:37 PM, "Michael Butash"  wrote:

> I remember trying the static compile approach back circa 2000 with linux
> and slackware.  After I'd learned Solaris, and why to hate it (making gnu
> software compile on it to not be a useless/costly linux), a buddy got me
> into Slackware, helping me install it, and how to compile a kernel and
> source.  I began compiling everything static as possible, particularly the
> kernel, and when I began growing/exploring/learning, it was just a constant
> "recompile this for this, recompile that for this too, and 50 other
> things".  I learned why that was a bad idea pretty quickly.
>
> I moved to Freebsd shortly thereafter, tried compling everything, and
> found that didn't work well either once you have to jump releases.  I
> already hated RedHat by that time with RPM-hell (pre yum, debatable if
> better after), and tried everything from mandrake to suse, finally landing
> on ubuntu that combined with debian apt, made shared libs somewhat
> manageable.  Ten years later, even with effort to leave Ubuntu, I'm still
> here, and remains the most painless, even though pain still comes a plenty.
>
> Again, I see pain in every os, particularly still windoze in this day and
> age, where for crying out loud with daily patches for the past 20 years,
> you'd think could figure out how the game works as a direct result of their
> incessantly poor security.  A week to fix a bad patch for a major security
> service pack release!?  People are getting fired for it, quite literally -
> why would any enterprise trust them in good conscience?
>
> And yeah, Amazon.  Fund lawyers, sue them for being dirtbags, spend 2
> years in court, and after lawyer fees get $200 dollars for passing go and
> wasting exponentially more effort than attributable to lost wages.  At this
> point I tell her she just needs to find a not crappy company that respects
> their employees to work for, but yeah, dubiously legally otherwise.  For a
> technology company, the CS side of things is apparently dysfunctional as
> all get out.
>
> A buddy was trying to get me to move to Seattle to work with AWS...  I
> used this on-going story as a reason why not to even try.  Even he was a
> bit stunned.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On 08/25/2016 08:55 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:
>
>> anyway, it sounds to me like we need to adopt some of the apple method
>> here. Instead of having system level libraries that handle the heavy
>> lifting, that each app  have it all compiled in. This should cut down on a
>> lot of issues, although it might introduce others.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>
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Re: MacBook

[Michael Butash]

My "key" software is generally the Kernel.

One particularly nasty little side note I've found was related to my 
logitech wireless keyboard.  At least twice now, I've run into this 
where I'll upgrade ubuntu's kernel, and I can't unlock my hard drives or 
get to a desktop as my dongle isn't registering. This is something of a 
big issue, though I usually just have to hit the server room for a spare 
usb keyboard temporarily.  Once no keyboard worked to even break grub 
and change kernels.  Now I keep grub on manual from automatically booting.


AMD video is another bastard.  I'll generally get annoyed with something 
else not working, do a dist-upgrade just to get to current, and realize 
a new kernel slid in.  One that broke my video, which seeing intel likes 
to pretend their cpu has a real gpu on it, causes all sorts of chaos 
with where my displays actually pop up on my pci card or mobo until I 
can figure out what newer driver, if any, works with a newer kernel.


Virtualbox is another.  Because lovely windoze is still required always 
intermittently, I'll upgrade, realize after a few days vbox is broken 
when I need to look at a visio, and wonder wtf, having to reverse 
engineer and remember I dared update something.  VMware workstation is 
finicky as all hell usually, I can never update without breaking it.


VPN software, hell even KRDC likes to randomly break with updates, 
remmina occasionally breaks too, which is wonderful when left with no 
working rdp client to manage/use customer services.


My laptop hasn't had a working resolvconf to get working DNS servers 
with a network connection in a year, I have to "sudo dhclient $if" to 
pull them outside of networkmangler.  Better than trying to upgrade and 
break something else


List sort of goes on and on.  Still better than any experience with Mac 
or Windoze of late.


-mb


On 08/25/2016 09:44 PM, Stephen Partington wrote:


I have to say. If an update breaks your key software then you need to 
manage your damned updates. All os' have the ability to do this. Just 
implement it already.



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Re: MacBook sales

[coverturtle]

If you consider buying a used one, keep watch on the lemswap emails.

On 09/02/2016 05:06 PM, Keith Smith wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking to buy a MacBook.  Seems Best Buy has them for a few
> points off.
>
> I'm wondering if Apple or any retailers ever have sales on MacBooks? 
> Black Friday?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Keith
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Re: MacBook sales

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

Look at Craigslist sometimes there are great deals there plus there is the 
Apple Exchange in Tempe. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 7:03 PM, coverturtle  wrote:
> 
> If you consider buying a used one, keep watch on the lemswap emails.
> 
>> On 09/02/2016 05:06 PM, Keith Smith wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm looking to buy a MacBook.  Seems Best Buy has them for a few
>> points off.
>> 
>> I'm wondering if Apple or any retailers ever have sales on MacBooks? 
>> Black Friday?
>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>> 
>> Thanks!!
>> 
>> Keith
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Re: MacBook sales

[David Schwartz]

the best deals on Apple products is their refurb store

https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=tzJbcg2o-2FNh3kfIF32sRUSDpKrY7ZXsVfLYYFZZgLNfWzBc-2FnY5leNgiWk4DYq6-2FWieGFzYvAVm4rm1XH2O5pcG8xGHrkDaJrZ2vPeV21rI-3D_6lpMB7VLnN-2Fj9-2FEErg8-2F-2BMBpb5QxlByTgv2M3fbWD9ebvC-2BWrN3h7jImK8EVWYBeC4iBtxGWevUWiaa3a9fqEuEqNAQfXwS-2FkeTn9gG2CpEsbLOSxEg08j-2FBIAnsFnYQ2i0XfmUwquiRsieZG7XWzqEf7mU9O1vyLNlIJls0WNFSgHzy5Eh-2BbsLonkXg7N8EOuBxlrdKvigZTE4VzgrpO7W6qLPnbGgWberZop8WPZI-3D

-David "The Tool Wiz" Schwartz



> On Sep 2, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Keith Smith  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking to buy a MacBook.  Seems Best Buy has them for a few points off.
> 
> I'm wondering if Apple or any retailers ever have sales on MacBooks?  Black 
> Friday?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Keith
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Re: MacBook sales

[Charles Lewton]

Lease returns, etc at:

http://www.bestdealaz.com

On Sep 2, 2016 19:37, "David Schwartz"  wrote:

> the best deals on Apple products is their refurb store
>
> http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbook
> 
>
> -David “The Tool Wiz” Schwartz
>
> On Sep 2, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Keith Smith  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking to buy a MacBook. Seems Best Buy has them for a few points off.
>
> I'm wondering if Apple or any retailers ever have sales on MacBooks? Black
> Friday?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Keith --- PLUG-discuss
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>
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Re: MacBook sales

[Keith Smith]

Great feedback!!  Thanks!!




On 2016-09-02 19:58, Charles Lewton wrote:

Lease returns, etc at:

http://www.bestdealaz.com [4]

On Sep 2, 2016 19:37, "David Schwartz" 
wrote:


the best deals on Apple products is their refurb store

http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbook [2]

-David “The Tool Wiz” Schwartz


On Sep 2, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Keith Smith
 wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking to buy a MacBook. Seems Best Buy has them for a few
points off.

I'm wondering if Apple or any retailers ever have sales on
MacBooks? Black Friday?

Any thoughts?

Thanks!!

Keith ---
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Links:
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[1]
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[2]
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[3] http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
[4] http://www.bestdealaz.com

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--
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