Re: Software Portfolio
There’s something to be said for being at the right place at the right time. I worked at Intel and left for a few months. When i returned to another division, I learned that about 2 dozen people I worked with there all turned in their resignations one Monday morning shortly after I’d left, including my former boss. They went and hired on with a new startup. Among them were a bunch of guys who all graduated from a Master’s program at the same place at the same time. One of them got ostracized and was not invited to join. He got depressed. A mutual friend said he got a call from a headhunter to interview at Microsoft. This was 1981 before they had gone public. He went but wasn’t very excited about it. They apparently offerred him a huge stock option and sign-on bonus, and he finally agreed. He bacame the manager of a very high-profile team. When the two companies went public, the group of guys all became multi-millionaires overnight. The guy they didn’t invite ended up getting enough Microsoft stock that it was worth more than all of his budies combined. He eventually went off to create a little startup of his own, which you’d know if you were around back then, and he made a shit-pile more when that company was acquired by a much bigger fish. I knew these guys, and worked with them on a daily basis. They all would hang out several evenings a week playing D They all left their work at the office. They made fun of me because I’d spend evenings reading computer mags like Byte and Dr. Dobb’s Journal. I also brought some parts home from work and built a little computer that was the size of a RPi that ran an 8088. That got me a job working with a group that was too cheap to buy a symbolic debugger so we had to debug all of the software looking at core dumps and assembly language generated by a C compiler. It wasn’t a lot of fun, and they kicked me out after 90 days. I probably knew more people who becamse multi-millionaires with startups in the 80’s than people from high school who were killed in Viet Nam. Fortunately or unfortunately, I wasn’t in either group. Back then, friends would get together and kick ideas around, noodle around creating stuff, and a lot of the time it led to a startup. Today, nobody really wants to hang out and talk about stuff unless you have some money to pony-up first. I guess that’s because, you know … those FOSS projects people do in their spare time are like little lottery tickets, right? -David Schwartz > On Dec 1, 2022, at 11:00 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss > wrote: > > David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 01 Dec 2022 19:48:59 + > (UTC) > > >> I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but >> none of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of >> getting a job. > > This is an anecdote, so take it for what it's worth: A friend of mine > is a developer supreme: He thoroughly understands algorithms, data > structures and protocols at a deep level. He made a free software smart > phone app and maintained it for his users. A couple years later > WhatsApp noticed it, noticed him, invited him to California, hired him, > and when Facebook bought WhatsApp he got a bonus at least if not more > than sufficient for him to buy a Tesla. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
NICE! Sometimes good things happen to deserving people and a good deed goes unpunished. On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:00 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 01 Dec 2022 19:48:59 + > (UTC) > > > >I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but > >none of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of > >getting a job. > > This is an anecdote, so take it for what it's worth: A friend of mine > is a developer supreme: He thoroughly understands algorithms, data > structures and protocols at a deep level. He made a free software smart > phone app and maintained it for his users. A couple years later > WhatsApp noticed it, noticed him, invited him to California, hired him, > and when Facebook bought WhatsApp he got a bonus at least if not more > than sufficient for him to buy a Tesla. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 01 Dec 2022 19:48:59 + (UTC) >I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but >none of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of >getting a job. This is an anecdote, so take it for what it's worth: A friend of mine is a developer supreme: He thoroughly understands algorithms, data structures and protocols at a deep level. He made a free software smart phone app and maintained it for his users. A couple years later WhatsApp noticed it, noticed him, invited him to California, hired him, and when Facebook bought WhatsApp he got a bonus at least if not more than sufficient for him to buy a Tesla. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
We used a similar process to weed out Support candidates. its amazing how many could not even with an Open internet test. Mainly I didn't care if they got it 100% I wanted to see the process they went through. did they google an error. did they look for similar issues etc. On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 2:49 PM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > Sorry, but this would prevent most people who work for big corporations > from ever getting hired. > > It might work for smaller companies trying to sift through a bunch of > applicants and they need a way to get a little more insight into their > abilities. > > I’ve always been amazed at the off-hours interestes of other devs where > I’ve worked. They seem to go in one of two directions: > > 1) they spend time off-hours working on stuff they enjoy that’s unrelated > to their job; or > > 2) they leave the programming at work and prefer spending time on totally > different things. > > I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but none > of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of getting a > job. > > Keep in mind, these are big engineering companies, not small shops that do > things like build websites. Graphic artists have “portfolios”. Programmers > have “knowledge”. Code embodies knowledge, but doesn’t always reflect it. > Most of what you’ll see is how the organize their code, what their coding > style might be like, what they comment and don’t comment, and if you’re > good enough to recognize different design patterns in the code then you can > get some idea of how they think. If you run the software, maybe you can see > their UI skills. > > However, the chances of what you’re looking at having any relevance to the > job at hand is not very good, based on my experience on both sides of the > hiring fence. > > Reading code is a slow tedious process that leaves more questions than > answers. I want to know how you think and solve problems. > > I was working at a place as a contractor and we had to hire four more > people on the team. Someone arranged for a headhunter, and he showed up one > day with an 18” pile of resumes. After about the first dozen or so they all > started to look the same. The two other colleagues working with me bugged > off and refused to waste their time. What do you do in that case? > > We decided to write up a short questionaire with four questions that gave > us a lot of insight into their understanding of some problems we were > dealing with in our code. We had the headhunter send it out and asked them > to answer to the best of their ability and return it. (Only about half did, > which was really helpful.) We weren’t looking for anybody to answer all > four like it was a Master’s Thesis. We just wanted to filter out those who > had such a limited knowledge of what we were doing that we didn’t have to > even waste our time interviewing them. From that perspective, looking at > code on github is far more time-intensive than scanning a resume and four > more detailed tech questions that applied very closely to our project. > > If someone at a prospective employer has time to waste going through my > github code looking to be impressed, I don’t want to work there because > their priorities are messed-up. I can get what I need just talking with > you. > > -David Schwartz > > > > > On Dec 1, 2022, at 9:46 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume > is less impressive than the work done when it comes to software. > > Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a > website that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit > resume's on. link any working demos you may have. link your projects via > git so they can look at what you make. > > Keep a project journal someplace and make that available. > > You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what you > do nobody will have an idea. > > Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and > consistent work. as well as references. > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
Sorry, but this would prevent most people who work for big corporations from ever getting hired. It might work for smaller companies trying to sift through a bunch of applicants and they need a way to get a little more insight into their abilities. I’ve always been amazed at the off-hours interestes of other devs where I’ve worked. They seem to go in one of two directions: 1) they spend time off-hours working on stuff they enjoy that’s unrelated to their job; or 2) they leave the programming at work and prefer spending time on totally different things. I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but none of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of getting a job. Keep in mind, these are big engineering companies, not small shops that do things like build websites. Graphic artists have “portfolios”. Programmers have “knowledge”. Code embodies knowledge, but doesn’t always reflect it. Most of what you’ll see is how the organize their code, what their coding style might be like, what they comment and don’t comment, and if you’re good enough to recognize different design patterns in the code then you can get some idea of how they think. If you run the software, maybe you can see their UI skills. However, the chances of what you’re looking at having any relevance to the job at hand is not very good, based on my experience on both sides of the hiring fence. Reading code is a slow tedious process that leaves more questions than answers. I want to know how you think and solve problems. I was working at a place as a contractor and we had to hire four more people on the team. Someone arranged for a headhunter, and he showed up one day with an 18” pile of resumes. After about the first dozen or so they all started to look the same. The two other colleagues working with me bugged off and refused to waste their time. What do you do in that case? We decided to write up a short questionaire with four questions that gave us a lot of insight into their understanding of some problems we were dealing with in our code. We had the headhunter send it out and asked them to answer to the best of their ability and return it. (Only about half did, which was really helpful.) We weren’t looking for anybody to answer all four like it was a Master’s Thesis. We just wanted to filter out those who had such a limited knowledge of what we were doing that we didn’t have to even waste our time interviewing them. From that perspective, looking at code on github is far more time-intensive than scanning a resume and four more detailed tech questions that applied very closely to our project. If someone at a prospective employer has time to waste going through my github code looking to be impressed, I don’t want to work there because their priorities are messed-up. I can get what I need just talking with you. -David Schwartz > On Dec 1, 2022, at 9:46 AM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss > wrote: > > I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume is > less impressive than the work done when it comes to software. > > Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a website > that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit resume's on. > link any working demos you may have. link your projects via git so they can > look at what you make. > > Keep a project journal someplace and make that available. > > You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what you do > nobody will have an idea. > > Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and consistent > work. as well as references. > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
Indeed. the best way do build this is if you have a function that irks you, build it, refine it, document it, and then share it. and happy hunting. On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:56 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > That is what I had strongly suspected -- especially if you don't have much > experience or you didn't just graduate from a top program. I think I'm > getting to the point where I can do more than just little training and test > exercises, so it's time to devote some effort to some demonstrable product, > even if I were to get an entry level position in the field which satisfied > me for a while. (It looks like I might get something soon as a Python web > developer ... which would be a step up from writing automated UI tests in > VBScript.) > > > Trent > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 9:47 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume >> is less impressive than the work done when it comes to software. >> >> Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a >> website that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit >> resume's on. link any working demos you may have. link your projects via >> git so they can look at what you make. >> >> Keep a project journal someplace and make that available. >> >> You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what >> you do nobody will have an idea. >> >> Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and >> consistent work. as well as references. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:53 PM Joseph Sinclair via PLUG-discuss < >> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >> >>> Some thoughts that may help (in addition to the good advice from Keith, >>> Steve, and David). >>> 1. Working on some open source software in Github is a good place to >>> build a "here is what I have done" portfolio. Github has pretty good >>> public analytics showing all your public commits and pull requests, as well >>> as issues, reviews, etc... I've used github history to understand >>> engineering skill, practice, and approach for both candidates and coworkers. >>> 2. What to work on depends a lot on what you find interesting. If you >>> want to work on Java or other JVM languages (e.g. Scala), I can probably >>> make some suggestions (ping me off-list for detail) for open source >>> projects to work on; if you can be patient I might be able to provide some >>> *light* guidance on some of those. >>> 3. The extreme majority of companies are terrible at interviewing. It's >>> not entirely you that's bad at interviews; the company is probably about as >>> competent interviewing software engineers as the average garden slug. >>> 4. You can try an approach I've seen some people have good results >>> with. A number of companies have started using things like HackerRank to >>> (foolishly in my opinion) "test" potential hires. It's relatively simple >>> to work through the "challenges" and "tutorials" on that site if you have >>> time. Completing the majority of those both makes it simple to pass these >>> "test" interviews (whether you know how to design software or not), and can >>> also produce a large visibility boost if you want to find work with one of >>> the companies that use the service for hiring. >>> >>> Side note (OT and rant, skip if not interested in curmudgeonly rants). >>> Using canned "code challenges" as a pass-fail "test" is about the >>> stupidest way to vet software professionals ever. High quality engineers >>> are not faster programmers (and make no mistake, HackerRank is mostly based >>> on "get the 'correct' solution fast"). High quality engineers produce >>> designs that meet requirements better, are more secure, perform better, are >>> more reliable, and/or cost less to maintain and operate. The fact is that >>> people interviewing engineers don't know how to evaluate engineering skill >>> so they fall back to "objective" tests, and end up filtering *out* the very >>> people they want. >>> I want to be clear, asking a coding problem isn't bad; provided the goal >>> is to listen and observe problem solving, however, not get a "right" >>> answer. Most people I interview never complete my coding problems; but I >>> learn a lot about how they approach problem solving in the process. >>> What's the alternative, though? I advocate dropping the "interrogation" >>> style interview entirely. If you have to dig and manipulate to get truth >>> from the interviewee, then you should not hire them at all; they cannot be >>> trusted. Focus on a clear, honest, open, adult conversation and mutual >>> learning instead. Ask questions about what the candidate can do, wants to >>> do, interests, and expectations. Learn, both directions, if and how the >>> candidate may meet the needs of the business, and if the position offered >>> will
Re: Software Portfolio
Hi Stephen, That is what I had strongly suspected -- especially if you don't have much experience or you didn't just graduate from a top program. I think I'm getting to the point where I can do more than just little training and test exercises, so it's time to devote some effort to some demonstrable product, even if I were to get an entry level position in the field which satisfied me for a while. (It looks like I might get something soon as a Python web developer ... which would be a step up from writing automated UI tests in VBScript.) Trent On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 9:47 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume > is less impressive than the work done when it comes to software. > > Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a > website that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit > resume's on. link any working demos you may have. link your projects via > git so they can look at what you make. > > Keep a project journal someplace and make that available. > > You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what you > do nobody will have an idea. > > Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and > consistent work. as well as references. > > > > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:53 PM Joseph Sinclair via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> Some thoughts that may help (in addition to the good advice from Keith, >> Steve, and David). >> 1. Working on some open source software in Github is a good place to >> build a "here is what I have done" portfolio. Github has pretty good >> public analytics showing all your public commits and pull requests, as well >> as issues, reviews, etc... I've used github history to understand >> engineering skill, practice, and approach for both candidates and coworkers. >> 2. What to work on depends a lot on what you find interesting. If you >> want to work on Java or other JVM languages (e.g. Scala), I can probably >> make some suggestions (ping me off-list for detail) for open source >> projects to work on; if you can be patient I might be able to provide some >> *light* guidance on some of those. >> 3. The extreme majority of companies are terrible at interviewing. It's >> not entirely you that's bad at interviews; the company is probably about as >> competent interviewing software engineers as the average garden slug. >> 4. You can try an approach I've seen some people have good results with. >> A number of companies have started using things like HackerRank to >> (foolishly in my opinion) "test" potential hires. It's relatively simple >> to work through the "challenges" and "tutorials" on that site if you have >> time. Completing the majority of those both makes it simple to pass these >> "test" interviews (whether you know how to design software or not), and can >> also produce a large visibility boost if you want to find work with one of >> the companies that use the service for hiring. >> >> Side note (OT and rant, skip if not interested in curmudgeonly rants). >> Using canned "code challenges" as a pass-fail "test" is about the >> stupidest way to vet software professionals ever. High quality engineers >> are not faster programmers (and make no mistake, HackerRank is mostly based >> on "get the 'correct' solution fast"). High quality engineers produce >> designs that meet requirements better, are more secure, perform better, are >> more reliable, and/or cost less to maintain and operate. The fact is that >> people interviewing engineers don't know how to evaluate engineering skill >> so they fall back to "objective" tests, and end up filtering *out* the very >> people they want. >> I want to be clear, asking a coding problem isn't bad; provided the goal >> is to listen and observe problem solving, however, not get a "right" >> answer. Most people I interview never complete my coding problems; but I >> learn a lot about how they approach problem solving in the process. >> What's the alternative, though? I advocate dropping the "interrogation" >> style interview entirely. If you have to dig and manipulate to get truth >> from the interviewee, then you should not hire them at all; they cannot be >> trusted. Focus on a clear, honest, open, adult conversation and mutual >> learning instead. Ask questions about what the candidate can do, wants to >> do, interests, and expectations. Learn, both directions, if and how the >> candidate may meet the needs of the business, and if the position offered >> will meet the needs and expectations of the candidate (not everyone wants >> every position, nor should they). >> I have found, through hundreds of interviews, on both sides of the table, >> that an honest and open conversation is many times more successful than the >> typical approach. >> >> On 2022-11-29 08:50 PM, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>
Re: Software Portfolio
I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume is less impressive than the work done when it comes to software. Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a website that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit resume's on. link any working demos you may have. link your projects via git so they can look at what you make. Keep a project journal someplace and make that available. You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what you do nobody will have an idea. Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and consistent work. as well as references. On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:53 PM Joseph Sinclair via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > Some thoughts that may help (in addition to the good advice from Keith, > Steve, and David). > 1. Working on some open source software in Github is a good place to build > a "here is what I have done" portfolio. Github has pretty good public > analytics showing all your public commits and pull requests, as well as > issues, reviews, etc... I've used github history to understand engineering > skill, practice, and approach for both candidates and coworkers. > 2. What to work on depends a lot on what you find interesting. If you > want to work on Java or other JVM languages (e.g. Scala), I can probably > make some suggestions (ping me off-list for detail) for open source > projects to work on; if you can be patient I might be able to provide some > *light* guidance on some of those. > 3. The extreme majority of companies are terrible at interviewing. It's > not entirely you that's bad at interviews; the company is probably about as > competent interviewing software engineers as the average garden slug. > 4. You can try an approach I've seen some people have good results with. > A number of companies have started using things like HackerRank to > (foolishly in my opinion) "test" potential hires. It's relatively simple > to work through the "challenges" and "tutorials" on that site if you have > time. Completing the majority of those both makes it simple to pass these > "test" interviews (whether you know how to design software or not), and can > also produce a large visibility boost if you want to find work with one of > the companies that use the service for hiring. > > Side note (OT and rant, skip if not interested in curmudgeonly rants). > Using canned "code challenges" as a pass-fail "test" is about the > stupidest way to vet software professionals ever. High quality engineers > are not faster programmers (and make no mistake, HackerRank is mostly based > on "get the 'correct' solution fast"). High quality engineers produce > designs that meet requirements better, are more secure, perform better, are > more reliable, and/or cost less to maintain and operate. The fact is that > people interviewing engineers don't know how to evaluate engineering skill > so they fall back to "objective" tests, and end up filtering *out* the very > people they want. > I want to be clear, asking a coding problem isn't bad; provided the goal > is to listen and observe problem solving, however, not get a "right" > answer. Most people I interview never complete my coding problems; but I > learn a lot about how they approach problem solving in the process. > What's the alternative, though? I advocate dropping the "interrogation" > style interview entirely. If you have to dig and manipulate to get truth > from the interviewee, then you should not hire them at all; they cannot be > trusted. Focus on a clear, honest, open, adult conversation and mutual > learning instead. Ask questions about what the candidate can do, wants to > do, interests, and expectations. Learn, both directions, if and how the > candidate may meet the needs of the business, and if the position offered > will meet the needs and expectations of the candidate (not everyone wants > every position, nor should they). > I have found, through hundreds of interviews, on both sides of the table, > that an honest and open conversation is many times more successful than the > typical approach. > > On 2022-11-29 08:50 PM, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > (Lead buried in last two or three paragraphs.) > > > > Hi, > > > > I've been in software writing positions on-and-off since about 1999. I > > spent a couple years teaching myself Oracle SQL and PERL in 1999 and 2000 > > for a nice application in the phone industry, then I had a long bout of > > unemployment, with some false stats on contract programming positions > along > > the way. During that time I complimented my degrees, which included a > math > > major, with an MS in Information Management (really IT management) and a > > certificate in programming from Rio Salado, a couple years programming > > software tests in VBS for Micro Focus UFT One--which ceased to be very > > challenging by the end of two years. Recently, I did a
Re: Software Portfolio
Some thoughts that may help (in addition to the good advice from Keith, Steve, and David). 1. Working on some open source software in Github is a good place to build a "here is what I have done" portfolio. Github has pretty good public analytics showing all your public commits and pull requests, as well as issues, reviews, etc... I've used github history to understand engineering skill, practice, and approach for both candidates and coworkers. 2. What to work on depends a lot on what you find interesting. If you want to work on Java or other JVM languages (e.g. Scala), I can probably make some suggestions (ping me off-list for detail) for open source projects to work on; if you can be patient I might be able to provide some *light* guidance on some of those. 3. The extreme majority of companies are terrible at interviewing. It's not entirely you that's bad at interviews; the company is probably about as competent interviewing software engineers as the average garden slug. 4. You can try an approach I've seen some people have good results with. A number of companies have started using things like HackerRank to (foolishly in my opinion) "test" potential hires. It's relatively simple to work through the "challenges" and "tutorials" on that site if you have time. Completing the majority of those both makes it simple to pass these "test" interviews (whether you know how to design software or not), and can also produce a large visibility boost if you want to find work with one of the companies that use the service for hiring. Side note (OT and rant, skip if not interested in curmudgeonly rants). Using canned "code challenges" as a pass-fail "test" is about the stupidest way to vet software professionals ever. High quality engineers are not faster programmers (and make no mistake, HackerRank is mostly based on "get the 'correct' solution fast"). High quality engineers produce designs that meet requirements better, are more secure, perform better, are more reliable, and/or cost less to maintain and operate. The fact is that people interviewing engineers don't know how to evaluate engineering skill so they fall back to "objective" tests, and end up filtering *out* the very people they want. I want to be clear, asking a coding problem isn't bad; provided the goal is to listen and observe problem solving, however, not get a "right" answer. Most people I interview never complete my coding problems; but I learn a lot about how they approach problem solving in the process. What's the alternative, though? I advocate dropping the "interrogation" style interview entirely. If you have to dig and manipulate to get truth from the interviewee, then you should not hire them at all; they cannot be trusted. Focus on a clear, honest, open, adult conversation and mutual learning instead. Ask questions about what the candidate can do, wants to do, interests, and expectations. Learn, both directions, if and how the candidate may meet the needs of the business, and if the position offered will meet the needs and expectations of the candidate (not everyone wants every position, nor should they). I have found, through hundreds of interviews, on both sides of the table, that an honest and open conversation is many times more successful than the typical approach. On 2022-11-29 08:50 PM, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote: > (Lead buried in last two or three paragraphs.) > > Hi, > > I've been in software writing positions on-and-off since about 1999. I > spent a couple years teaching myself Oracle SQL and PERL in 1999 and 2000 > for a nice application in the phone industry, then I had a long bout of > unemployment, with some false stats on contract programming positions along > the way. During that time I complimented my degrees, which included a math > major, with an MS in Information Management (really IT management) and a > certificate in programming from Rio Salado, a couple years programming > software tests in VBS for Micro Focus UFT One--which ceased to be very > challenging by the end of two years. Recently, I did a pre-apprenticeship > program with a local company with a software developer apprenticeship > program (TechOne IT) which basically worked out to a slow-paced virtual > boot camp in anticipation of an initial contingent placement/apprenticeship > proper. > > Right now my current employer (The Precisionists Inc)--which is specialized > in semi-supported contingent employment for autistic, neurodiverse, and > other disabled people (in that order) has me on the bench, but I'm close to > getting a new position as a Python web developer ... for which, I could be > more unqualified, but not much. > > After lackluster success with the equivalent of more than an AS in CIS > specializing in programming. I have concluded I face a few obstacles. > > 1. I'm autistic, so I can't interview worth a damn. > 2.a. There is a tremendous shortage of doctors and nurses, but
Re: Software Portfolio
> 2.b. There is a tremendous shortage of software writers, but Yes, and a lot of big companies are waiting for Congress to lift the H1-B quotas so they can hire a ton of foreigners really cheaply from India. Meanwhile, the use of AI is changing the complexion of the programming world. (India graduates more people with BSCS degrees each year than America produces in ALL disciplines from BS to PhDs annually! Most of them never find work there and end up doing something totally unrelated!) > no one is going to be studpid enough to hire one until they have completed an > accredited degree, done an internship, done a bootcamp, and maybe gotten some > certs. Sorry, I disagree with this. I’ve worked with tons of people who have none of it. They get hired because they were able to show some proficiency at the required tasks and they get paid less initially. Most employers will just give you one or more tests to see how you do. It seems to me that, in the current market, all employers are looking for is someone who can hit the ground running, doing whatever it is they need done. Nobody is including time to train or come up to speed, although a new job often involves a lot of up-front learning about THEIR environment, toolset, policies, and whatnot. But they assume you already know the “art” of whatever you’re hired to do. In Jan of last year, I was diagnosed with Asperger’s, which is on the Autism spectrum. It explains a whole lot of really weird shit from my past, and why my reviews always say the same things, mostly about my "behavioral issues". Otherwise, until you’ve been around me for a while, I seem perfectly “normal”. (People who’ve gotten to know me usually end up asking at some point, “Dude, why are you so weird / different?” Because my brain does not work the same way most other people’s brains work. I think differently. It’s like being color-blind, because nobody can see it, but you respond differently than others b/c the world looks different to you.) The thing is, people on the spectrum have both “gifts” and “challenges”. Unfortunately, most employers have no idea what to do with either one. My "behavioral issues” have tended to overshadow any “gifts” I’ve ever brought to the table, although being diagnosed gives me a way to explain how to deal with the issues so they’re not a problem. The bigger challenge is that the employer has to understand what’s involved, and most do not. Nor do they seem to care. Dealing with “handicapped” people who have physical disabilities are far easier to deal with because you can actually SEE what’s going on and how to make the “reasonable accommodations” required by ADA laws. But autism can be totally invisible, and show up over time as "behavioral disorders” that most people won’t recognize unless they’re pointed out first. As I said, my last employer just didn’t want to deal with it. However … they get some tax breaks hiring people with ADA-recognized “disabilities”. So we have something that most folks do NOT, and it gives us a leg-up for employers who are interested. My last employer didn’t, so we parted ways. I don’t know where you fall in the spectrum, whether you have physical motor control and/or speech issues, but a remote position would be perfect for you either way. Everybody looks mostly the same through written channels. Given people’s preconceptions about people with “disabilities", I think if you can find a way to do at least one thing well, there are folks who’d be happy to hire you. — That said, there’s a growing demand for people who can help companies deal with “getting seen” online, which means mostly getting Google to find them and then have them show up when people enter relevant search queries. It’s got very little to do with “programming” per se, but it’s technical enough that most people aren’t well equipped to deal with it themselves. It doesn’t take a lot of tech savvy to master this stuff and look like a wizard in their eyes. The net result is you can be generating a few grand a month per client with very little effort needed on your part. Here’s a link to a presentation that’s one of the most comprehensive collections of tools I’ve ever seen. These products are all top-notch. https://strategicmarketer.com/TrainingReplay?vgo_ee=r3Hk1Y%2BhrLBiGYkKd9qiE4vy7T5YEJ8ohjC9vauJg30%3D (It might be gone by Friday, so watch it ASAP.) The reason I’m posting this is to illustrate the types of things people are making $10k-$50k per month providing to ordinary business clients on a recurring monthly basis. There are cheaper solutions, but this presentation is quite good as a way to understand the market opportunities. Their products and support are excellent, and this deal comes with a lot of support as well. Again, this is a far cry from ‘programming’, but your technical skills will win the show every time. Most people who do this stuff are totally clueless about the
Re: Software Portfolio
trent shipley via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 29 Nov 2022 20:50:30 -0700 >(Lead buried in last two or three paragraphs.) > >1. I'm autistic, so I can't interview worth a damn. [snip] >2.b. There is a tremendous shortage of software writers, but no one is >going to be studpid enough to hire one until they have completed an >accredited degree, done an internship, done a bootcamp, and maybe >gotten some certs. I don't think 2.b is true. I busted into programming without an IT degree or certs. A lot of others I knew did the same thing. About 6 years ago three successful developers got on stage and described how they'd made it. In all three cases, it boiled down to "fake it til you make it." Of course, one needs talent to follow that path. I think of a degree as a crutch for those who have little talent. Now if you can't interview worth a damn, that does complicate the situation. I have no idea what it's like to be autistic. If you're capable of portraying a cool, calm confidence that of course you can do what they're asking you to do, then you can follow the "fake it til you make it" route, assuming you have knowledge and skills. I'd advise you to seek employment (or contract work) with smaller companies, where you can speak directly to those who make the final hiring decision. I think your idea of a publically accessible software portfolio is an outstanding idea, given your situation. You say you love Scala. By all means author your portfolio software in Scala. One last thing: Be careful using negative words like "studpid enough to hire". HTH, SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Software Portfolio
Hi Trent, I've had a love/hate relationship with tech. I started programming at the UofA in 1983. Because I was an accounting major I was required to take two programming courses. By that point I was hooked. Love/hate means I worked really hard and did not go so far. Had a couple corporate jobs however I hated the cube. I hated office politics. I had come from a military and law enforcement background where people tend to work together. I think the hardship creates bonding. I look at programming and maybe other IT niches like baseball. - There is the kid that does really good in high school and does not make it to college. - There is the kid that is on a college ball team and goes no further. - Some make it to the farm team but goes no further. - Then there is the select few who make it to the big leagues. I consider myself a farm team level programmer. There are lots of people who can program me into the ground, however I can hold my own. I addressed these issues in a simple way that has led to a bit of road rash. I've tried freelance programming maybe 4 different times. I failed 3 of those times. I held some bottom feeder jobs for 10 or 12 years while I tried to find my place. Everything lined up for me in 2008 when I was able to build a website that brought me in leads. I started getting business and was making money. This is all anecdotal... and my advice comes from a guy who walked in your shoes. 1) Educations only matters a little bit. 2) Those who hire you are looking for results which boils down to skills. 3) Know yourself. Don't interview well then find a way to not interview. As a freelancer no one has tried to interview me with the exception of one guy. And that was 1 out of a 1000. 4) What is in your heart? Read about the Hedgehog Concept by Jim Collins : https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/the-hedgehog-concept.html This will help you find your passion that will also help you earn. 5) Once you find your niche, develop your skills in that area. 6) If you want to work in the cube find a couple hiring managers willing to give you 5 minutes a week as mentors. Work towards an internship and then a full-time paid job. 7) If you want to freelance you will need a website, some skills, and customers. To find customers you can look at the freelance job sites and look at the job sites like Indeed and find remote jobs that are in your niche. 8) You can always make a blog, do some Search Engine Optimization, and add a YouTube channel to find business. Hope this helps!! Keith On 2022-11-29 20:50, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote: (Lead buried in last two or three paragraphs.) Hi, I've been in software writing positions on-and-off since about 1999. I spent a couple years teaching myself Oracle SQL and PERL in 1999 and 2000 for a nice application in the phone industry, then I had a long bout of unemployment, with some false stats on contract programming positions along the way. During that time I complimented my degrees, which included a math major, with an MS in Information Management (really IT management) and a certificate in programming from Rio Salado, a couple years programming software tests in VBS for Micro Focus UFT One--which ceased to be very challenging by the end of two years. Recently, I did a pre-apprenticeship program with a local company with a software developer apprenticeship program (TechOne IT) which basically worked out to a slow-paced virtual boot camp in anticipation of an initial contingent placement/apprenticeship proper. Right now my current employer (The Precisionists Inc)--which is specialized in semi-supported contingent employment for autistic, neurodiverse, and other disabled people (in that order) has me on the bench, but I'm close to getting a new position as a Python web developer ... for which, I could be more unqualified, but not much. After lackluster success with the equivalent of more than an AS in CIS specializing in programming. I have concluded I face a few obstacles. 1. I'm autistic, so I can't interview worth a damn. 2.a. There is a tremendous shortage of doctors and nurses, but no one is going to hire one who hasn't graduated from an accredited program, done an internship successfully, and passed their credentialing exam ... unless it's as a drug salesperson. 2.b. There is a tremendous shortage of software writers, but no one is going to be studpid enough to hire one until they have completed an accredited degree, done an internship, done a bootcamp, and maybe gotten some certs. I've only done the first. I've been looking at maybe putting together a "software portfolio". The stuff on the internet is focused on web-developer portfolio and seems to be really describing a visually appealing website which is partware between a resume and CV, but much closer to a friendlier more personable website--which to pay to have made since you aren't a web designer. I was thinking more, "this
