Re: A programming language for learning (Was: Re: )
didn't say it wasn't useful ;) -jmz On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 12:38 AM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote: Perl isn't the first language I would recommended for a newbie but I can't think of a more versatile language. There are perl modules for just about anything. On Feb 20, 2010 10:14 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say the best language to learn first is the one that makes the project useful. What is the project you want to attack? I enjoyed learning C/C++ first, but OOP evangelists would disagree. :) Eric On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: one of the best ... -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- http://home.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:13 PM On Sat, 2010-02-20 at 19:12 -0700, Joseph Sinclair wrote: Let's not devolve into a favorite language war. There are situations where Python is a great language choice, and situations where it's terrible. Every language choice comes down to what you want to accomplish. Some languages are good for rapid development of websites (Ruby, PHP, etc...). Some languages are good for systems management scripts (Python, Perl, etc...). Some languages are good for developing large web systems intended to be maintained for years (Java, others). Some languages are good for developing packaged COTS software (C++, Java, etc...). Some languages are good for system software and embedded devices (C, C++, etc...). Many languages are most useful in very specific niches (Forth, Lisp, ADA, XSLT, LOLCode, Objective-C, etc...) Most languages have multiple areas where they work well, and multiple areas where they're not so good. What exactly you want to accomplish in your software development should drive the language choice, although it rarely does. No one particular language is the best choice for learning how to write software; each type of software development will drive a different choice of the best first language to learn. Mike, you need to specify your goal more precisely in order for the community here to give you a useful recommendation that will help you best accomplish that goal. ==Joseph++ Kevin Fries wrote: Wow, now I know why it is so hard to hire people that are competent! Python is fun, not right, but fun... Thats your argument? If you want to know why we refuse to hire Python programmers at our company, I can give you real facts on why you should not use that language as a place to learn... Not opinions. and then of course there is the motivation to learn a language for gainful employment which in some circles would be none of the above. I think Kevin was looking at it from his particular employment angle. Personally, I am particularly amused by Joseph's placing both Ruby and PHP both in the same 'rapid web development' category because my experience has been that it takes me 1/4 to 1/5 the time to accomplish 'rapid web development' with RoR than it does with PHP. The only thing worse than trying to decipher 'other peoples' PHP code is trying to decipher 'other peoples' perl code. Craig -- Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? Keith --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re:
At that rate throw in COBOL Keith Smith --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote: From: Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com Subject: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 10:17 PM One vote for Fortran! On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Vaughn Treude vltre...@deru.com wrote: On 02/20/2010 08:01 PM, keith smith wrote: I'm old school and would suggest learning plain old C. Then you can branch out to other languages. Keith Smith I second that. C is simple and versatile, and spawned off a whole family of other language such as C++ and Java. Vaughn Treude I would not describe C as simple. It is a small language (low number of reserved words and operators) but it's highly versatile nature and closeness to the hardware makes it very capable and dangerous. And so not simple, in my mind. It has been my bread and butter for 20+ years so I do love it. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE:
Oh, I didn't realize we could go old school on this... Thanks Eric, that was just too funny Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Eric Cope Sent: 02/20/2010 10:17:58 PM Subject: Re: One vote for Fortran! On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Vaughn Treude vltre...@deru.com wrote: On 02/20/2010 08:01 PM, keith smith wrote: I'm old school and would suggest learning plain old C. Then you can branch out to other languages. Keith Smith I second that. C is simple and versatile, and spawned off a whole family of other language such as C++ and Java. Vaughn Treude I would not describe C as simple. It is a small language (low number of reserved words and operators) but it's highly versatile nature and closeness to the hardware makes it very capable and dangerous. And so not simple, in my mind. It has been my bread and butter for 20+ years so I do love it. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re:
Learn the command-line using BASH, then use BASH as your first programming language. The transition is seamless. BASH provides the three things you need to write a structured program: sequence, selection, repetition. In addition, it has functions and the array data structure. From BASH move onto C. Learn the entire language along with most of the STDC Library (it's one of the greatest libraries of all-time). After C, the paths you can take are plentiful. The simplest hello world program I've encountered (assume $ is the PS1 prompt)... $ echo hello, world On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Kevin Fries kfri...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, I didn't realize we could go old school on this... Thanks Eric, that was just too funny Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Eric Cope Sent: 02/20/2010 10:17:58 PM Subject: Re: One vote for Fortran! On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Vaughn Treude vltre...@deru.com wrote: On 02/20/2010 08:01 PM, keith smith wrote: I'm old school and would suggest learning plain old C. Then you can branch out to other languages. Keith Smith I second that. C is simple and versatile, and spawned off a whole family of other language such as C++ and Java. Vaughn Treude I would not describe C as simple. It is a small language (low number of reserved words and operators) but it's highly versatile nature and closeness to the hardware makes it very capable and dangerous. And so not simple, in my mind. It has been my bread and butter for 20+ years so I do love it. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Programming Language for Learning
I have developed in allot of languages, and when the original question was asked about language I suggested Ruby. But I think there was a little confusion about that. Ruby and Rails (i.e. RoR) are two completely different things. Rails is a web application framework. What this means is that it is used to build applications, not websites, that use the web for interaction with the user the way a C program would use X. What I suggested the OP learn if they wanted to learn to program with a modern language is Ruby... Not rails. Ruby has all the basics, and holds on to OO principles better than any other language... Even Java. It also has IRB an interactive environment where a programmer can play in a live session and see immediate cause and effect. Plus, there are a plethora of books and websites on writing Ruby programs. Why not Python? It also has the interactive shell doesn't it? Well yes it does, but it has many security issues, and does not properly follow OO principles. While learning, you should learn in an environment that enforces proper form, Python does not do that because the language is missing too many elements. I would put Mono and Visual Basic in this same category. Why not Java? It follows proper OO principles doesn't it? Why yes it does. But there is no learning environment like Python and Ruby. Why not a procedural language like C or Perl? Too many modern environments use OO for interactive programs. Servers are a different story, but learning to program by learning to write servers is like teaching your 16 year old to drive in an 18 wheeler. They will learn allot more, but not the easiest path to the desired goal. And finally, well if C is the wholly grail, but you want it OO, why not C++? If you ever used C++, like I have, you would not ask that question. Far too often people confuse learning with practicality. Some languages are good at some things, some are good at others. The OP asked for a language that he could learn how to program and there were allot of fandom posturing, over this language or that. What got lost in much of the conversation is that this is not about what language is good gor task x or task y, but instead what language will help the OP learn to program with a modern language. I hope this clearifies my previous comments. Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Thank U cpu input
Thank you everyone, I appreciate your input on my CPU upgrade question. I will know very soon how it works. :) Mike --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: A programming language for learning (Was: Re: )
something interesting, a graph of code statistics by language use: http://www.google.com/buzz/jjzeidner/1prxvbtV7SF/https-www-ohloh-net-languages-compare-measure -jmz On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 3:00 AM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: didn't say it wasn't useful ;) -jmz On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 12:38 AM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote: Perl isn't the first language I would recommended for a newbie but I can't think of a more versatile language. There are perl modules for just about anything. On Feb 20, 2010 10:14 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say the best language to learn first is the one that makes the project useful. What is the project you want to attack? I enjoyed learning C/C++ first, but OOP evangelists would disagree. :) Eric On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: one of the best ... -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- http://home.joshuazeidner.com/ -- http://home.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: A programming language for learning (Was: )
Wow, for someone that accused me and others of being fanboys at the expense of logic, you just can't let it go! OK, using this logic, if I want to learn how to cook, I should get a job at McDonalds because they serve more customers than any other resturaunt. Python is a terific language as a replacement for Perl as an advanced scripting language. But as a teaching language, it sucks. Python is used far too often in situations where it shouldn't be in an attempt to make it into something its not. This thread started someone wanting to learn how to program, and you keep advocating Python for reasons that have nothing to do with providing the right environment for learning... Instead you keep up the fandom you have accused me and others of. Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Joshua Zeidner Sent: 02/21/2010 2:39:22 PM Subject: Re: A programming language for learning (Was: Re: ) something interesting, a graph of code statistics by language use: http://www.google.com/buzz/jjzeidner/1prxvbtV7SF/https-www-ohloh-net-languages-compare-measure -jmz On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 3:00 AM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: didn't say it wasn't useful ;) -jmz On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 12:38 AM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote: Perl isn't the first language I would recommended for a newbie but I can't think of a more versatile language. There are perl modules for just about anything. On Feb 20, 2010 10:14 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote: I'd say the best language to learn first is the one that makes the project useful. What is the project you want to attack? I enjoyed learning C/C++ first, but OOP evangelists would disagree. :) Eric On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: one of the best ... -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- http://home.joshuazeidner.com/ -- http://home.joshuazeidner.com/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Help for my mom part 2
OK, mom gave up on the desktop for now and let someone convince her into buying a new HP netbook. It came with Windows, and she iis already annoyed with it after a week... Too funny!!! I know there is an Installfest later this month but she can't make that one. When is the one after that so we can find someone to help her get UNR installed? Thx Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: A programming language for learning (Was: Re: )
I like c as you can find its basics in so many other languages. I also like php because it transitions well and offers a link to oop but its a dirty evil language that allows too many bad habbits. I do think if you go the c route or c++ it gives you a ton of paths to branch out On 2/20/10, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: Every language has strengths and weaknesses. Some one wanted the strengths and so designed the language for that reason. Python is appropriate for many things and not appropriate for many others. So is any other language. Mike wanted a suggestion for learning a language. Python is an easy language to start with because: - the learner can see results quickly for encouragement. - there is an excellent community to support the learner. - there is a large body of libraries (modules) to add interesting functionality quickly. - there is a large body of documentation, tutorials, etc. available online and in print. Does using Python cause bad habits that may hinder the learner when attempting to use other languages or creating other types of programs? Probably, depending on the next language and application. The same can be said for any other programming language. For example, my career has mostly involved developing embedded executables in low resource environments. Only recently has any object-oriented compiler reached a point where coding such systems using OO principles makes sense. Sometimes, in low resource target environments, all kinds of taboo coding behaviors are necessary. So, if Python is not appropriate in your experience, which language or languages would you suggest for a first-time, self-learner? Why? BTW, there are several How to think like a computer scientist books, each centered on a different language. They are very good. So, if Python is not the one, go with Java or C++ (http://www.greenteapress.com/) Alan On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Kevin Fries kfri...@gmail.com wrote: Wow, now I know why it is so hard to hire people that are competent! Python is fun, not right, but fun... Thats your argument? If you want to know why we refuse to hire Python programmers at our company, I can give you real facts on why you should not use that language as a place to learn... Not opinions. Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Joshua Zeidner Sent: 02/20/2010 4:17:23 PM Subject: Re: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote: Seems like we have a lot of opinions here. Here is a paper from ACM on the use of Python in for teaching programming. http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=114017 sorry wrong link: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1140123.1140177 -jmz -jmz On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Austin William Wright diamondma...@users.sourceforge.net wrote: Alan Dayley wrote: Python. Absolutely NOT PYTHON. It breaks the first two rules of programming, the assignment operator (=) assigns values to a variable, and always ignore whitespace. Well my first two rules, at least. Plus it sucks at consistent use of object-oriented programming. If you *really* need a general-purpose programming language, look at Ruby, it's slightly more well behaved. Slightly. I would recommend Javascript, it's a major programming language, and you can run it in your web browser with literally nothing to install. Plus Javascript is closely related to XML and HTML, while not programming languages, are markup languages (a way of storing data) that is becoming very important to know for many things. Though designed for the web, many of these things are finding themselves become part of everyday computing, especially XML. For these things, http://www.w3schools.com/ is popular. Any scripting language might be a good start at learning about if/then/else logic, but none of these languages are going to teach how computers really *process* or *store* information on the inside (how the CPU executes the program or how variables are stored in memory), or for that matter write an actual interactive computer program, you will need a real language like C or C++. After learning something like Javascript you will find C surprisingly limited in functionality if you try and do things the same way, especially variable-length variables like strings and arrays. Keep that fact in the back of your head for when, if, you attempt C/C++. Whatever you do, Google x tutorial should bring up something good. In the way of books, however, you can't miss ones from O'Reilly ( http://oreilly.com/ ), they are jade/teal and have a random animal on the cover. Austin Wright. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Sent from my mobile device James
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 07:34 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? no I haven't and I am aware of cake.php (and django for python). But if you think about, cake still has php as its underlying code base and with Rails, you not only get the framework but you get the OOP code base and it's elegance and readability which makes it so much easier to develop with and immensely easier to pick up even code months later (commented or uncommented) and discern what it does. PHP is comparatively messy and unstructured. I would suggest that cake.php is just putting lipstick on a pig. What you will find is that if your experience is .Net or PHP, that RoR makes web development fun again. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Help for my mom part 2
Why not send her a UNR live CD to try it out? She could try other live cds as well until the next install fest to find just what she wants. Mark --Original Message-- From: Kevin Fries Sender: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To: Phoenix Linux Users ReplyTo: kfri...@gmail.com ReplyTo: Phoenix Linux Users Subject: Help for my mom part 2 Sent: Feb 21, 2010 3:10 PM OK, mom gave up on the desktop for now and let someone convince her into buying a new HP netbook. It came with Windows, and she iis already annoyed with it after a week... Too funny!!! I know there is an Installfest later this month but she can't make that one. When is the one after that so we can find someone to help her get UNR installed? Thx Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
Interesting. I appreciate your feedback. What is the learning curve like for RoR ? Keith Smith --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:01 PM On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 07:34 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? no I haven't and I am aware of cake.php (and django for python). But if you think about, cake still has php as its underlying code base and with Rails, you not only get the framework but you get the OOP code base and it's elegance and readability which makes it so much easier to develop with and immensely easier to pick up even code months later (commented or uncommented) and discern what it does. PHP is comparatively messy and unstructured. I would suggest that cake.php is just putting lipstick on a pig. What you will find is that if your experience is .Net or PHP, that RoR makes web development fun again. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 15:48 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting. I appreciate your feedback. What is the learning curve like for RoR ? I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
After taking a quick look at RoR - http://oreilly.com/ruby/archive/rails.html , it looks a lot like CodeIgniter. Any CodeIgniter users? Does that sound right? Keith Smith --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:01 PM On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 07:34 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? no I haven't and I am aware of cake.php (and django for python). But if you think about, cake still has php as its underlying code base and with Rails, you not only get the framework but you get the OOP code base and it's elegance and readability which makes it so much easier to develop with and immensely easier to pick up even code months later (commented or uncommented) and discern what it does. PHP is comparatively messy and unstructured. I would suggest that cake.php is just putting lipstick on a pig. What you will find is that if your experience is .Net or PHP, that RoR makes web development fun again. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
--- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 5:00 PM On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 15:48 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting. I appreciate your feedback. What is the learning curve like for RoR ? I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- I worked with CodeIgniter sometime ago and found the learning curve to be more than I liked. I also found it to be confining. Maybe it was just me. I have since started to use the MVC pattern in PHP development, which helps with keeping the code clean. Controler in one file, Data in another, View in another. Much cleaner and might even speedup the development time. Rapid Application Development is something I have brought up on the PHP list several times, since I started on the command line, traveled through the RAD GUI era and am now doing browser based stuff. It feels like we are back in the DOS days of command-line development. We lack the ability to visually drag a widget onto a form and set it's configuration and move on to the next widget. Not only did you get what you saw, it was a lot faster. I'm always looking for ways to work faster and more efficiently but do not see it at this point. I have entertained Delphi for PHP because that may be the closest we get to a RAD GUI for building browser based applications. I'm very interested in hearing anyone's and everyone's responses. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 16:36 -0800, keith smith wrote: --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- I worked with CodeIgniter sometime ago and found the learning curve to be more than I liked. I also found it to be confining. Maybe it was just me. I have since started to use the MVC pattern in PHP development, which helps with keeping the code clean. Controler in one file, Data in another, View in another. Much cleaner and might even speedup the development time. Rapid Application Development is something I have brought up on the PHP list several times, since I started on the command line, traveled through the RAD GUI era and am now doing browser based stuff. It feels like we are back in the DOS days of command-line development. We lack the ability to visually drag a widget onto a form and set it's configuration and move on to the next widget. Not only did you get what you saw, it was a lot faster. I'm always looking for ways to work faster and more efficiently but do not see it at this point. I have entertained Delphi for PHP because that may be the closest we get to a RAD GUI for building browser based applications. I'm very interested in hearing anyone's and everyone's responses. every framework that I have ever seen is confining...that is the point of a framework. And yes, they will have their own learning curves but you seem to toss away what benefits you actually derive from using the framework. In the case of RoR, you not only get a prescribed MVC structure, you inherit thousands of predefined methods (some languages would describe them as procedures), view helpers, db abstraction and integrated testing. Don't confuse the topics of development tools and language/frameworks - they are entirely separate issues. If you want rapid development with GUI interfaces, just use Filemaker or 4D or go back to FoxBase. Many years ago I saw a demonstration of Apple's Web Objects - very cool, but I never knew a soul who actually used it. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
--- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 6:07 PM On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 16:36 -0800, keith smith wrote: --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- I worked with CodeIgniter sometime ago and found the learning curve to be more than I liked. I also found it to be confining. Maybe it was just me. I have since started to use the MVC pattern in PHP development, which helps with keeping the code clean. Controler in one file, Data in another, View in another. Much cleaner and might even speedup the development time. Rapid Application Development is something I have brought up on the PHP list several times, since I started on the command line, traveled through the RAD GUI era and am now doing browser based stuff. It feels like we are back in the DOS days of command-line development. We lack the ability to visually drag a widget onto a form and set it's configuration and move on to the next widget. Not only did you get what you saw, it was a lot faster. I'm always looking for ways to work faster and more efficiently but do not see it at this point. I have entertained Delphi for PHP because that may be the closest we get to a RAD GUI for building browser based applications. I'm very interested in hearing anyone's and everyone's responses. every framework that I have ever seen is confining...that is the point of a framework. And yes, they will have their own learning curves but you seem to toss away what benefits you actually derive from using the framework. In the case of RoR, you not only get a prescribed MVC structure, you inherit thousands of predefined methods (some languages would describe them as procedures), view helpers, db abstraction and integrated testing. Don't confuse the topics of development tools and language/frameworks - they are entirely separate issues. If you want rapid development with GUI interfaces, just use Filemaker or 4D or go back to FoxBase. Many years ago I saw a demonstration of Apple's Web Objects - very cool, but I never knew a soul who actually used it. Craig Graig, FoxBase did not have a GUI as I recall. But for it's time is was RAD in both senses of the word. Visual FoxPro was very cool!! I enjoyed it immensely. The problem is Visual FoxPro as I knew it would not be good for building websites. The concept is however applicable and raises the issue of RAD tools for web application development. In the sense that a framework might speed development it is a RAD tool. That is why the comparison. This topic always looses steam before it gets going. And I would agree with you about leveraging proven debugged code that is found in a mature framework. It is a great asset, makes things easier, and will help alleviate some bugs. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re:
Make that two votes. (especially for math/science geeks) Notice: first programming language. Having picked up the basics, you can then go on in whatever language seems best for the area you're working (or want to be working) in. Plan on learning at least a half-dozen or a dozen languages during your career. Mark Jarvis Eric Cope wrote: One vote for Fortran! On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Vaughn Treude vltre...@deru.com wrote: On 02/20/2010 08:01 PM, keith smith wrote: I'm old school and would suggest learning plain old C. Then you can branch out to other languages. Keith Smith I second that. C is simple and versatile, and spawned off a whole family of other language such as C++ and Java. Vaughn Treude I would not describe C as simple. It is a small language (low number of reserved words and operators) but it's highly versatile nature and closeness to the hardware makes it very capable and dangerous. And so not simple, in my mind. It has been my bread and butter for 20+ years so I do love it. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
I work with CodeIgniter a lot, in fact I am coding a web app right now in CI. I have not found it to be limiting, given the capability to extend or replace any CI function. I personally love CI and would say that my code is fairly self documenting. I'd like to hear more about what Craig has to say about PHP vs. RoR. I have not made the switch yet, because there have been no business drivers to change, but if Craig wouldn't mind explaining more, I am very interested... Eric On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:20 PM, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote: After taking a quick look at RoR - http://oreilly.com/ruby/archive/rails.html , it looks a lot like CodeIgniter. Any CodeIgniter users? Does that sound right? Keith Smith --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Re: To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 4:01 PM On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 07:34 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? no I haven't and I am aware of cake.php (and django for python). But if you think about, cake still has php as its underlying code base and with Rails, you not only get the framework but you get the OOP code base and it's elegance and readability which makes it so much easier to develop with and immensely easier to pick up even code months later (commented or uncommented) and discern what it does. PHP is comparatively messy and unstructured. I would suggest that cake.php is just putting lipstick on a pig. What you will find is that if your experience is .Net or PHP, that RoR makes web development fun again. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re:
I'd just like to point out that ruby was originally intended to be a
replacement for perl, primarily focused on being used for sys admin
type scripting, not a web language. I for one love ruby and do
essentially no web programming, I just can't live without the binding
operator ( ~= ) and perl's regular expressions, but love ruby's syntax
( and who wouldn't love something like '5.times { puts Ruby is the
greatest! }
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Michael Havens bmi...@gmail.com wrote:
website development seems like the only thing I would want to do so Ruby it
is!
and that is the typical story with Ruby developers... ;)
-jmz
Unfortunately, it isn't on my Ubuntuu install. When I tried to start it
it told me to apt-get it. No internet connection.
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Joseph Sinclair plug-discuss...@stcaz.net
wrote:
Let's not devolve into a favorite language war. There are situations
where Python is a great language choice, and situations where it's terrible.
Every language choice comes down to what you want to accomplish.
Some languages are good for rapid development of websites (Ruby, PHP,
etc...).
Some languages are good for systems management scripts (Python, Perl,
etc...).
Some languages are good for developing large web systems intended to be
maintained for years (Java, others).
Some languages are good for developing packaged COTS software (C++, Java,
etc...).
Some languages are good for system software and embedded devices (C, C++,
etc...).
Many languages are most useful in very specific niches (Forth, Lisp, ADA,
XSLT, LOLCode, Objective-C, etc...)
Most languages have multiple areas where they work well, and multiple
areas where they're not so good.
What exactly you want to accomplish in your software development should
drive the language choice, although it rarely does.
No one particular language is the best choice for learning how to write
software; each type of software development will drive a different choice of
the best first language to learn.
Mike, you need to specify your goal more precisely in order for the
community here to give you a useful recommendation that will help you best
accomplish that goal.
==Joseph++
Kevin Fries wrote:
Wow, now I know why it is so hard to hire people that are competent!
Python is fun, not right, but fun... Thats your argument? If you want to
know why we refuse to hire Python programmers at our company, I can give
you
real facts on why you should not use that language as a place to learn...
Not opinions.
Kevin
Sent from my Nokia phone
-Original Message-
From: Joshua Zeidner
Sent: 02/20/2010 4:17:23 PM
Subject: Re:
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com
wrote:
Seems like we have a lot of opinions here. Here is a paper from ACM
on the use of Python in for teaching programming.
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=114017
sorry wrong link:
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1140123.1140177
-jmz
-jmz
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Austin William Wright
diamondma...@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
Alan Dayley wrote:
Python.
Absolutely NOT PYTHON. It breaks the first two rules of programming,
the
assignment operator (=) assigns values to a variable, and always
ignore
whitespace. Well my first two rules, at least. Plus it sucks at
consistent use of object-oriented programming.
If you *really* need a general-purpose programming language, look at
Ruby, it's slightly more well behaved. Slightly. I would recommend
Javascript, it's a major programming language, and you can run it in
your web browser with literally nothing to install. Plus Javascript is
closely related to XML and HTML, while not programming languages, are
markup languages (a way of storing data) that is becoming very
important
to know for many things. Though designed for the web, many of these
things are finding themselves become part of everyday computing,
especially XML. For these things, http://www.w3schools.com/ is
popular.
Any scripting language might be a good start at learning about
if/then/else logic, but none of these languages are going to teach how
computers really *process* or *store* information on the inside (how
the
CPU executes the program or how variables are stored in memory), or
for
that matter write an actual interactive computer program, you will
need
a real language like C or C++. After learning something like
Javascript
you will find C surprisingly limited in functionality if you try and
do
things the same way, especially variable-length variables like strings
and arrays. Keep that fact in the back of your head for when, if, you
attempt C/C++.
Whatever you do, Google x tutorial should bring up something good.
In the way of books, however,
Re: Programming Language for Learning
you guys are great! keep it up. I'm leaning towards Ruby but am still open. On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Kevin Fries kfri...@gmail.com wrote: I have developed in allot of languages, and when the original question was asked about language I suggested Ruby. But I think there was a little confusion about that. Ruby and Rails (i.e. RoR) are two completely different things. Rails is a web application framework. What this means is that it is used to build applications, not websites, that use the web for interaction with the user the way a C program would use X. What I suggested the OP learn if they wanted to learn to program with a modern language is Ruby... Not rails. Ruby has all the basics, and holds on to OO principles better than any other language... Even Java. It also has IRB an interactive environment where a programmer can play in a live session and see immediate cause and effect. Plus, there are a plethora of books and websites on writing Ruby programs. Why not Python? It also has the interactive shell doesn't it? Well yes it does, but it has many security issues, and does not properly follow OO principles. While learning, you should learn in an environment that enforces proper form, Python does not do that because the language is missing too many elements. I would put Mono and Visual Basic in this same category. Why not Java? It follows proper OO principles doesn't it? Why yes it does. But there is no learning environment like Python and Ruby. Why not a procedural language like C or Perl? Too many modern environments use OO for interactive programs. Servers are a different story, but learning to program by learning to write servers is like teaching your 16 year old to drive in an 18 wheeler. They will learn allot more, but not the easiest path to the desired goal. And finally, well if C is the wholly grail, but you want it OO, why not C++? If you ever used C++, like I have, you would not ask that question. Far too often people confuse learning with practicality. Some languages are good at some things, some are good at others. The OP asked for a language that he could learn how to program and there were allot of fandom posturing, over this language or that. What got lost in much of the conversation is that this is not about what language is good gor task x or task y, but instead what language will help the OP learn to program with a modern language. I hope this clearifies my previous comments. Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- :-)~MIKE~(-: --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 21:50 -0700, Paul Mooring wrote:
I'd just like to point out that ruby was originally intended to be a
replacement for perl, primarily focused on being used for sys admin
type scripting, not a web language. I for one love ruby and do
essentially no web programming, I just can't live without the binding
operator ( ~= ) and perl's regular expressions, but love ruby's syntax
( and who wouldn't love something like '5.times { puts Ruby is the
greatest! }
or code like this (from an irb an interactive ruby session)
this_day = Date.today
= Sun, 21 Feb 2010
this_day + 3.months
= Fri, 21 May 2010
(this_day + 3.months).beginning_of_month
= Sat, 01 May 2010
or extending built-in classes...
class Float
def to_fl(digits)
sprintf(%.#{digits}f,self)
end
end
= nil
test2 = 3.141625
= 3.141625
test2.to_fl(3)
= 3.142
or iterating over arrays, etc.
The beauty of ruby is apparent, rails or not. But if you are doing a web
application with rails, you always have the full functionality of ruby.
Whenever something doesn't already exist for rails, you can add ruby
gems and if there isn't a ruby gem, you just write your code.
Then of course, you can simply open an irb and test out a section of
code without having to deal with a web browser, apache etc.
I find myself manipulating data in a db using the irb console rather
than phpmyadmin or mysql shell because it is so much easier to
loop/iterate/replace/save.
Craig
--
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Re: Help for my mom part 2
Yes, the next installfests are 2/27 at UAT and then 3/20 over in the Escalante Community Center, 2150 East Orange St, Tempe. Too bad she lives so far from Apache Junction or I would be happy to do it for her. WRT Mark's idea, she can't use a live CD with a netbook unless she has an external (USB) optical drive. OTOH, it would be possible to make her a live USB stick of UNR but you would have then instruct her how to boot from that either by setting boot order in BIOS (not likely) or pressing a key (usually F12) on startup for a boot menu. On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Kevin Fries kfri...@gmail.com wrote: OK, mom gave up on the desktop for now and let someone convince her into buying a new HP netbook. It came with Windows, and she iis already annoyed with it after a week... Too funny!!! I know there is an Installfest later this month but she can't make that one. When is the one after that so we can find someone to help her get UNR installed? Thx Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Help for my mom part 2
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:43:15PM +, m...@phillipsmarketing.biz wrote: Why not send her a UNR live CD to try it out? She could try other live cds as well until the next install fest to find just what she wants. I didn't think netbooks had optical drives. My step daughter has an HP mini and it doesn't. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re:
Excerpts from Gerald Thurman's message of Sun Feb 21 09:08:04 -0700 2010: Learn the command-line using BASH, then use BASH as your first programming language. The transition is seamless. BASH provides the three things you need to write a structured program: sequence, selection, repetition. In addition, it has functions and the array data structure. From BASH move onto C. Learn the entire language along with most of the STDC Library (it's one of the greatest libraries of all-time). After C, the paths you can take are plentiful. The simplest hello world program I've encountered (assume $ is the PS1 prompt)... $ echo hello, world I wasn't going to join in on this thread, but after that, I just have to. BASH is an excellent tool and a beautiful language. I used it to make my RSVP/birthday card thing at http://earlgrey.is-a-chef.net:1992 It's just BASH CGI being served up by lighttpd on OpenBSD. I love me. So, um... learn Ruby, dude. On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Kevin Fries kfri...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, I didn't realize we could go old school on this... Thanks Eric, that was just too funny Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Eric Cope Sent: 02/20/2010 10:17:58 PM Subject: Re: One vote for Fortran! On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Vaughn Treude vltre...@deru.com wrote: On 02/20/2010 08:01 PM, keith smith wrote: I'm old school and would suggest learning plain old C. Then you can branch out to other languages. Keith Smith I second that. C is simple and versatile, and spawned off a whole family of other language such as C++ and Java. Vaughn Treude I would not describe C as simple. It is a small language (low number of reserved words and operators) but it's highly versatile nature and closeness to the hardware makes it very capable and dangerous. And so not simple, in my mind. It has been my bread and butter for 20+ years so I do love it. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Eric Cope http://cope-et-al.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
