Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
Am 17. Aug, 2010 schwätzte JD Austin so: I'm not sure how good the coverage is but Arizona Small Business Association has a group plan you could participate in. Here is a link to find out more: http://www.asbbenefits.com/asbb.html Did not know about this. Would have been useful info for me earlier in the year :). Thanks for the link as it might be useful next year! A word of caution, though. Make sure it really is a group plan. I did investigate several insurance via several professional groups options. It turns out, they were all individual plans that were available via a business relationship with the professional association. I ended up going with one where there was a small discount versus walking in off the street. There is no group coverage, so barring protections in the new law, if I have a medical emergency insurance will suddenly get very expensive. The plan is overall not too expensive. More than at the last employer, but far less than COBRA was once I left the employer. It's good enough that I stuck with it rather than switching to $employer insurance once I was elligible. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning. #-- Warren Buffett--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
Am 28. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Steve Holmes so: moin moin, Sorry for the politics, but I think we need a good strong single payer system like they have in Germany; I always heard that their system was quite excellent. I was quite happy with Germany's system. I didn't need to use it much, but did have a couple of emergencies. Care was good. I think there was less pain management than in the US, but that didn't bother me too much. OTOH, I know people who had what I'd consider to be extreme precautions as part of their medical care. Maybe the lack of pain mgt was because I didn't complain or exhibit great concern about the pain I was in. It was quite inexpensive despite having to see Dr. Fee :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
Am 28. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Bryan O'Neal so: If you are in the self employed for the long hall you may want to join a small business group policy. Basically the policy managers take a chunk off the top but present a group of several thousand to the insurance company so they get a corporate like deal. Typically it works out to be cheaper but the last time I looked into it they all wanted a 2 year contract. Are there any that provide a true group coverage where the risk is spread against all the members of the group? I'd prefer to be on a group plan rather than with an individual plan. I think one place I looked at had a true group plan. It was a business services company that would handle accounting, retirement plans, payroll, etc. for a small business or consultant. The company requires pulling in a decent amount of consulting in order to participate, so was beyond what worked for me at the time. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. moose Roses are #FF, moose Violets are #FF, moose All my base, moose Are belong to you.--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
I'm curious who pays for the German public health system. Someone pays. And is there rationing? The Canadian system is said to be good until you dig a little. They have rationing. Canada also has a very high tax rate. Under the proposed system the costs are paid in many ways. This is so we will not be fully aware of the cost. For example someone wrote that we will be taxed at 3.8% on a house sale. For a $150,000 home that would be $5,700. Think about that, that is your wealth. And I read there will be an added payroll tax of 8%. If you make $50k a year that is $4,000 a year for just one person. That money is going to come from somewhere. Either direct tax or reduced pay if shared by your employer. The Government is good at hiding how much you are taxed. Look at your W2. Your employer pays SSI + Medicare for you and so do you. It is a combined 15.3%. You do not feel it because it is a little every payday. It is said the average tax payer (only 50% of Americans pay taxes) pays about 50% of what they make in taxes. Recently at Frys Electronics I paid 9.1% sails tax. Yikes! Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/28/10, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: From: der.hans pl...@lufthans.com Subject: Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 11:32 PM Am 28. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Steve Holmes so: moin moin, Sorry for the politics, but I think we need a good strong single payer system like they have in Germany; I always heard that their system was quite excellent. I was quite happy with Germany's system. I didn't need to use it much, but did have a couple of emergencies. Care was good. I think there was less pain management than in the US, but that didn't bother me too much. OTOH, I know people who had what I'd consider to be extreme precautions as part of their medical care. Maybe the lack of pain mgt was because I didn't complain or exhibit great concern about the pain I was in. It was quite inexpensive despite having to see Dr. Fee :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes http://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
GRUB and 3rd Party software conflict
Apparently both GRUB and some 3rd party Windows software make use of something called the embedding area of a hard disk and not standardized. The result is apparently a possibility for both to use the same space and for that software to make GRUB unable to boot the system. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/08/28/2112208/Some-Windows-Apps-Make-GRUB-2-Unbootable http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/debian/2010-08-28-windows-applications-making-grub2-unbootable.htmlhttp://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/%7Ecjwatson/blosxom/debian/2010-08-28-windows-applications-making-grub2-unbootable.html Be sure to read the comments to the Slashdot story. With no standard governing use of that non-partitioned area of the disk, it is perhaps not surprising that is is not a good idea to depend on it. Since I doubt the proprietary world will do anything about it, I guess I hope that GRUB will change to avoid the problem. Has anyone seen this happen? What system/software? I am now wondering if problem we saw with Roger's machine at the installfest could be related. I don't think so, but it might impact the new HP machine he bought. See the HP article reference and the fact the machine came with 4 primary partitions already in place (only noting they are using some of the new techniques). -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
no IRC mtg tonight
moin moin, I'm probably not going to be available at 20:00 tonight, so I'm going to cancel the IRC meeting. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man # of value -- Albert Einstein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no IRC mtg tonight
Thanks for letting us know Hans. Here s hoping you are not available because of something fun. On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:22 AM, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: moin moin, I'm probably not going to be available at 20:00 tonight, so I'm going to cancel the IRC meeting. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man # of value -- Albert Einstein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no IRC mtg tonight
H, I just went to my calendar to cancel it and found no irc for tonight anyway. LOL On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Dazed_75 lthiels...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for letting us know Hans. Here s hoping you are not available because of something fun. On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:22 AM, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: moin moin, I'm probably not going to be available at 20:00 tonight, so I'm going to cancel the IRC meeting. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man # of value -- Albert Einstein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
Most offer all the services but you can pick which ones work for you a-la-cart. But yes you really do need to be pulling in business and working as a small business. Something about the way they present the group to underwriters. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:38 PM, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: Am 28. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Bryan O'Neal so: If you are in the self employed for the long hall you may want to join a small business group policy. Basically the policy managers take a chunk off the top but present a group of several thousand to the insurance company so they get a corporate like deal. Typically it works out to be cheaper but the last time I looked into it they all wanted a 2 year contract. Are there any that provide a true group coverage where the risk is spread against all the members of the group? I'd prefer to be on a group plan rather than with an individual plan. I think one place I looked at had a true group plan. It was a business services company that would handle accounting, retirement plans, payroll, etc. for a small business or consultant. The company requires pulling in a decent amount of consulting in order to participate, so was beyond what worked for me at the time. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes http://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. moose Roses are #FF, moose Violets are #FF, moose All my base, moose Are belong to you. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage
Not only that but they have a controled economy - they will pay for Dr. education - but if they have a serpluss of Dr.s you don't get to be one. In addtion, unless you are in the larger cities, they assign you a Dr. and that is it - no consumer choose, no second opinion, etc. Further more it is highly unlikely you will see a Dr. Usually a lesser medical professional. Here you chose what you want - but you also pay for it. I personally hate the Canadian system. What is worse is if you look at full costing with the subsidized education, price control, subsidized medication, subsidized equipment and buildings, etc. The actual cost of care is higher then in the US. On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 6:41 AM, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm curious who pays for the German public health system. Someone pays. And is there rationing? The Canadian system is said to be good until you dig a little. They have rationing. Canada also has a very high tax rate. Under the proposed system the costs are paid in many ways. This is so we will not be fully aware of the cost. For example someone wrote that we will be taxed at 3.8% on a house sale. For a $150,000 home that would be $5,700. Think about that, that is your wealth. And I read there will be an added payroll tax of 8%. If you make $50k a year that is $4,000 a year for just one person. That money is going to come from somewhere. Either direct tax or reduced pay if shared by your employer. The Government is good at hiding how much you are taxed. Look at your W2. Your employer pays SSI + Medicare for you and so do you. It is a combined 15.3%. You do not feel it because it is a little every payday. It is said the average tax payer (only 50% of Americans pay taxes) pays about 50% of what they make in taxes. Recently at Frys Electronics I paid 9.1% sails tax. Yikes! Keith Smith --- On *Sat, 8/28/10, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com* wrote: From: der.hans pl...@lufthans.com Subject: Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 11:32 PM Am 28. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Steve Holmes so: moin moin, Sorry for the politics, but I think we need a good strong single payer system like they have in Germany; I always heard that their system was quite excellent. I was quite happy with Germany's system. I didn't need to use it much, but did have a couple of emergencies. Care was good. I think there was less pain management than in the US, but that didn't bother me too much. OTOH, I know people who had what I'd consider to be extreme precautions as part of their medical care. Maybe the lack of pain mgt was because I didn't complain or exhibit great concern about the pain I was in. It was quite inexpensive despite having to see Dr. Fee :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.ushttp://mc/compose?to=plug-disc...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31
3. Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage Years ago when I had to have liability insurance I was in one of the highest groups. It was like 1-2 months worth of paychecks for premiums Then of course what is it 4 months of working over the year and you pay off your debt to Uncle Sam? COBRA any time I was offered it between jobs I honestly had to wonder if the bean counters were smoking crack. $800 was the last I was offered with limited major medical, no dental and no prescriptions covered. You can be 21 years old and be considered high risk. Just get one doctor to say you have high blood pressure, now unless you get some kind of group plan you will never get low premiums. The automatically put you into the category of having obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes, stroke, heart attacks and such. Manageable or not you have a pre-existing condition. AZ had the worst benefits of any state I lived in, the highest premiums, the lowest amount of coverage, and for the hangnails, and headaches it would cover. If you could get dental and vision you had to wait 6 months for your insurance to kick in and up to 2 years for dental. The stuff that I needed covered wasn't... it was a pre-existing condition. Some people I know on Medicare/caid have to pay $4000 or more after the govt paid the initial $3000. Then old Uncle Sam would come in again and star paying a portion I believe. Though it could have been the whole amount. For the medications I take...just one 30 day supply of ONE med is $1200 bottle. I havent looked into the rest of them but the other 9 medications I take are probably in the range of $100 to $400 bottle. So mid range it and I have hospital rates of ~$3500 month for medications. You go over the borders and if they are genuine, might pay $150 for all those. Supoosedly it is to cover RD, but if that was the case that wealth should be spread around more. Somebody mentioned having a 3.8% tax on homes. Don't move to Houston. My parents bought a home there on the outskirts of town, houses ran $110,000. When they could finally sell that house. Including realtor fees, ...TX added on because you breathed too muc, save the fireworks, environmental contaimination, and a nd plethora of other taxes/fees to the tune of OVER $20,000. I was being sarcastic but that was the range of whatever they would charge. Mind you state taxes for the year were already paid for the property. This was add on stuff. They lost any equity they had because of this sale and movng costs, etc. How would you like this state to charge $50-60,000 sor a $250,000 and you can't do anything about it because we have to cover losses. vp --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no IRC mtg tonight
Am 29. Aug, 2010 schwätzte Dazed_75 so: H, I just went to my calendar to cancel it and found no irc for tonight anyway. LOL Yeah, there wasn't anyway. 5th Sunday of the month gets no meetings. Tells you how behind I am from being sick last week that I didn't catch that. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/Classeshttp://www.TwoGeekTechs.com/ # Director of Engineering, FonWallet Transaction Solutions, Inc. # Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31
Check CostCo for your meds. I've used them several times and they are much less than Walgreens. Keith Smith --- On Sun, 8/29/10, gm5729 gm5...@gmail.com wrote: From: gm5729 gm5...@gmail.com Subject: Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, August 29, 2010, 1:14 PM 3. Re: OT: Self Employed Health Insurance Costs and Coverage Years ago when I had to have liability insurance I was in one of the highest groups. It was like 1-2 months worth of paychecks for premiums Then of course what is it 4 months of working over the year and you pay off your debt to Uncle Sam? COBRA any time I was offered it between jobs I honestly had to wonder if the bean counters were smoking crack. $800 was the last I was offered with limited major medical, no dental and no prescriptions covered. You can be 21 years old and be considered high risk. Just get one doctor to say you have high blood pressure, now unless you get some kind of group plan you will never get low premiums. The automatically put you into the category of having obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes, stroke, heart attacks and such. Manageable or not you have a pre-existing condition. AZ had the worst benefits of any state I lived in, the highest premiums, the lowest amount of coverage, and for the hangnails, and headaches it would cover. If you could get dental and vision you had to wait 6 months for your insurance to kick in and up to 2 years for dental. The stuff that I needed covered wasn't... it was a pre-existing condition. Some people I know on Medicare/caid have to pay $4000 or more after the govt paid the initial $3000. Then old Uncle Sam would come in again and star paying a portion I believe. Though it could have been the whole amount. For the medications I take...just one 30 day supply of ONE med is $1200 bottle. I havent looked into the rest of them but the other 9 medications I take are probably in the range of $100 to $400 bottle. So mid range it and I have hospital rates of ~$3500 month for medications. You go over the borders and if they are genuine, might pay $150 for all those. Supoosedly it is to cover RD, but if that was the case that wealth should be spread around more. Somebody mentioned having a 3.8% tax on homes. Don't move to Houston. My parents bought a home there on the outskirts of town, houses ran $110,000. When they could finally sell that house. Including realtor fees, ...TX added on because you breathed too muc, save the fireworks, environmental contaimination, and a nd plethora of other taxes/fees to the tune of OVER $20,000. I was being sarcastic but that was the range of whatever they would charge. Mind you state taxes for the year were already paid for the property. This was add on stuff. They lost any equity they had because of this sale and movng costs, etc. How would you like this state to charge $50-60,000 sor a $250,000 and you can't do anything about it because we have to cover losses. vp -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31
Check CostCo for your meds. I've used them several times and they are much less than Walgreens. Walmart is cheaper than either Walgreens or Costco. But for a short drive to Los Algodones, Mexico just a few minutes from Yuma, I bought a 6 month supply of one medication that my son needs for $1.99. For years, he has been paying $60.00 per month for *the exact same item* ... same bottle, same brand, same source. For another item for which my wife was paying a $30.00 co-pay for an employer health-care covered medication, we bought a SIX-month supply for ... 99-cents. No prescription needed. For her type-1 diabetes, she needed a prescription called Armor Thyroid. Her doctor would not prescribe it and she could not find any physician in the US who would write a prescription for it for her. They all insisted (coerced) her to buy and take a more expensive synthetic ... which DID NOT WORK well for her at all and gave her all kinds of trouble. But finally, she found a supplier in India who air-mailed the exact item that she needed from India ... and when the factory-sealed item arrived, it had the original mfrs label and made in Canada on the label. While that item is made and sold in Canada, she could not purchase it from a Canadian pharmacy without a US doctor's prescription, which she could not get. I recently paid $3,500 for an MRI (about a 10-minute procedure). On a recent PBS special, they interviewed several places in Japan where anyone can walk in off the street and get the exact same MRI for a one-time cost of $99. No prescription and no insurance required. Friends, this whole physician/pharmaceutical/medical testing business is, without any doubt, a scam operation in the U.S. top to bottom. One word: greed. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31
I trust your opinion and input, Joe. How do we fix the problem? I'm self employed, older, had high blood pressure, over weight and loosing. and I plan on being self employed for the rest of my life. I took my wife to the ER and the charge was $3054.00 for the hospital and the doctor wanted $665. She received a doctor's assessment, 3 xrays, and antibiotic, and a tetanus shot. We were there for an hour and 15 minutes max. I was expecting $500 - $700. After more than an hour on the phone, covering 3 calls, and telling them this would make a great media event, they finally reduced the hospital charges to $760.00. I'm still waiting to see if the doctor will reduce his charges. The tetanus shot alone was almost $1000.00. They admitted that we could get the same shot at a doctor's office for $30.00 or $40.00. So how do we fix this problem? Keith Smith --- On Sun, 8/29/10, j...@actionline.com j...@actionline.com wrote: From: j...@actionline.com j...@actionline.com Subject: Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, August 29, 2010, 2:45 PM Check CostCo for your meds. I've used them several times and they are much less than Walgreens. Walmart is cheaper than either Walgreens or Costco. But for a short drive to Los Algodones, Mexico just a few minutes from Yuma, I bought a 6 month supply of one medication that my son needs for $1.99. For years, he has been paying $60.00 per month for *the exact same item* ... same bottle, same brand, same source. For another item for which my wife was paying a $30.00 co-pay for an employer health-care covered medication, we bought a SIX-month supply for ... 99-cents. No prescription needed. For her type-1 diabetes, she needed a prescription called Armor Thyroid. Her doctor would not prescribe it and she could not find any physician in the US who would write a prescription for it for her. They all insisted (coerced) her to buy and take a more expensive synthetic ... which DID NOT WORK well for her at all and gave her all kinds of trouble. But finally, she found a supplier in India who air-mailed the exact item that she needed from India ... and when the factory-sealed item arrived, it had the original mfrs label and made in Canada on the label. While that item is made and sold in Canada, she could not purchase it from a Canadian pharmacy without a US doctor's prescription, which she could not get. I recently paid $3,500 for an MRI (about a 10-minute procedure). On a recent PBS special, they interviewed several places in Japan where anyone can walk in off the street and get the exact same MRI for a one-time cost of $99. No prescription and no insurance required. Friends, this whole physician/pharmaceutical/medical testing business is, without any doubt, a scam operation in the U.S. top to bottom. One word: greed. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
A response below (bottom posted ;) [snipped] ... I took my wife to the ER and the charge was $3054.00 for the hospital and the doctor wanted $665. She received a doctor's assessment, 3 xrays, and antibiotic, and a tetanus shot. We were there for an hour and 15 minutes max. I was expecting $500 - $700. After more than an hour on the phone, covering 3 calls, and telling them this would make a great media event, they finally reduced the hospital charges to $760.00. I'm still waiting to see if the doctor will reduce his charges. The tetanus shot alone was almost $1000.00. They admitted that we could get the same shot at a doctor's office for $30.00 or $40.00. So how do we fix this problem? I used to think that I had answers to most problems ... but every day that goes by now, I realize that I have fewer and fewer answers. In part it's because the world has become an ever-more complex place ... but an even more pervasive problem in our society today (as I concluded my last previous comments) ... is simply greed. At this point, I don't think that there is a fix or a reasonable solution to the so-called health-care nightmare. Greed has killed common sense. While there are always honorable, caring people in most fields of human endeavor, the great tragedy is that the greedy are now so pervasive and so controlling in the so-called health-care field ... and the fact that most so-called elected representatives -- those who control the fabricating of man-made laws -- are lawyers who have basically no interest in doing what would be the right thing to do. Rather, they invent legislation that is so convoluted, complex, and compounded that everything has to be endlessly litigated to death. So, lawyers and legislators intentionally create legislation that has nothing to do with justice. Rather the laws are created so lawyers can run the meter to get money. Recently, when I was charged $280 for a 10-minute doctor appointment, I commented that I wished we had the option to sign an iron-clad waiver that no matter what the results of any medical consultation or treatment might be I would forfeit any right to sue so we could get medical/health care back to just paying for service actually rendered rather than having to pay ridiculous amounts of money for lawyers and lawsuits. He said, that was impossible because I as a patient could not stop other interested parties from suing ... even against my will. Therein lies a huge part of the so-called health-care cost. Lawyers and insurance companies taking their bite while providing no value-added to society. Greed by lawyers. Greed by suers. Greed by pharmaceutical companies. Greed by so-called doctors who are in it for the money rather than to help people. Greed by people who are trying to cheat death by insisting on extreme treatments way past the time that they should have just let go and let the inevitable happen. Recently there was a feature (on CBS 60-minutes I think) in which it was pointed out that something like half (I think it was) of all medicare expense is paid out for medical tests and procedures for people who are terminally ill and in the last two months of life ... many of them comatose for that entire time ... artificially kept alive on machines. That is an unconscionable waste of money that inflates so-called health-care costs for everybody else. Too many doctors keep the meter running by keeping people physically alive wy past the time they would be dead without pointless extraordinary measures. The whole so-called health-care nightmare is distorted way beyond reason ... by greed. Thus, it is not a fixable problem. Lawyer/legislators will never allow laws to be passed to put an end to outrageous lawsuits and insane awards for damages because it is their gravy train. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
Joe, is greed the problem, or the ability to coerce? Eric On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 5:51 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: A response below (bottom posted ;) [snipped] ... I took my wife to the ER and the charge was $3054.00 for the hospital and the doctor wanted $665. She received a doctor's assessment, 3 xrays, and antibiotic, and a tetanus shot. We were there for an hour and 15 minutes max. I was expecting $500 - $700. After more than an hour on the phone, covering 3 calls, and telling them this would make a great media event, they finally reduced the hospital charges to $760.00. I'm still waiting to see if the doctor will reduce his charges. The tetanus shot alone was almost $1000.00. They admitted that we could get the same shot at a doctor's office for $30.00 or $40.00. So how do we fix this problem? I used to think that I had answers to most problems ... but every day that goes by now, I realize that I have fewer and fewer answers. In part it's because the world has become an ever-more complex place ... but an even more pervasive problem in our society today (as I concluded my last previous comments) ... is simply greed. At this point, I don't think that there is a fix or a reasonable solution to the so-called health-care nightmare. Greed has killed common sense. While there are always honorable, caring people in most fields of human endeavor, the great tragedy is that the greedy are now so pervasive and so controlling in the so-called health-care field ... and the fact that most so-called elected representatives -- those who control the fabricating of man-made laws -- are lawyers who have basically no interest in doing what would be the right thing to do. Rather, they invent legislation that is so convoluted, complex, and compounded that everything has to be endlessly litigated to death. So, lawyers and legislators intentionally create legislation that has nothing to do with justice. Rather the laws are created so lawyers can run the meter to get money. Recently, when I was charged $280 for a 10-minute doctor appointment, I commented that I wished we had the option to sign an iron-clad waiver that no matter what the results of any medical consultation or treatment might be I would forfeit any right to sue so we could get medical/health care back to just paying for service actually rendered rather than having to pay ridiculous amounts of money for lawyers and lawsuits. He said, that was impossible because I as a patient could not stop other interested parties from suing ... even against my will. Therein lies a huge part of the so-called health-care cost. Lawyers and insurance companies taking their bite while providing no value-added to society. Greed by lawyers. Greed by suers. Greed by pharmaceutical companies. Greed by so-called doctors who are in it for the money rather than to help people. Greed by people who are trying to cheat death by insisting on extreme treatments way past the time that they should have just let go and let the inevitable happen. Recently there was a feature (on CBS 60-minutes I think) in which it was pointed out that something like half (I think it was) of all medicare expense is paid out for medical tests and procedures for people who are terminally ill and in the last two months of life ... many of them comatose for that entire time ... artificially kept alive on machines. That is an unconscionable waste of money that inflates so-called health-care costs for everybody else. Too many doctors keep the meter running by keeping people physically alive wy past the time they would be dead without pointless extraordinary measures. The whole so-called health-care nightmare is distorted way beyond reason ... by greed. Thus, it is not a fixable problem. Lawyer/legislators will never allow laws to be passed to put an end to outrageous lawsuits and insane awards for damages because it is their gravy train. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
Thank you Joe for taking so much time to respond to my question. You have caused me to look at this whole situation in a new light. I had always been against tort reform and after reading your reply feel that tort reform would be an artificial fix. From what you are saying is the system is made by lawyers for lawyers. So maybe the fix is to enforce the K-I-S-S methodology - Keep It Simple Stupid. Throw out almost all laws and get back to basics. You make some interesting and compelling points, thank you! Keith Smith --- On Sun, 8/29/10, j...@actionline.com j...@actionline.com wrote: From: j...@actionline.com j...@actionline.com Subject: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem. To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Sunday, August 29, 2010, 5:51 PM A response below (bottom posted ;) [snipped] ... I took my wife to the ER and the charge was $3054.00 for the hospital and the doctor wanted $665. She received a doctor's assessment, 3 xrays, and antibiotic, and a tetanus shot. We were there for an hour and 15 minutes max. I was expecting $500 - $700. After more than an hour on the phone, covering 3 calls, and telling them this would make a great media event, they finally reduced the hospital charges to $760.00. I'm still waiting to see if the doctor will reduce his charges. The tetanus shot alone was almost $1000.00. They admitted that we could get the same shot at a doctor's office for $30.00 or $40.00. So how do we fix this problem? I used to think that I had answers to most problems ... but every day that goes by now, I realize that I have fewer and fewer answers. In part it's because the world has become an ever-more complex place ... but an even more pervasive problem in our society today (as I concluded my last previous comments) ... is simply greed. At this point, I don't think that there is a fix or a reasonable solution to the so-called health-care nightmare. Greed has killed common sense. While there are always honorable, caring people in most fields of human endeavor, the great tragedy is that the greedy are now so pervasive and so controlling in the so-called health-care field ... and the fact that most so-called elected representatives -- those who control the fabricating of man-made laws -- are lawyers who have basically no interest in doing what would be the right thing to do. Rather, they invent legislation that is so convoluted, complex, and compounded that everything has to be endlessly litigated to death. So, lawyers and legislators intentionally create legislation that has nothing to do with justice. Rather the laws are created so lawyers can run the meter to get money. Recently, when I was charged $280 for a 10-minute doctor appointment, I commented that I wished we had the option to sign an iron-clad waiver that no matter what the results of any medical consultation or treatment might be I would forfeit any right to sue so we could get medical/health care back to just paying for service actually rendered rather than having to pay ridiculous amounts of money for lawyers and lawsuits. He said, that was impossible because I as a patient could not stop other interested parties from suing ... even against my will. Therein lies a huge part of the so-called health-care cost. Lawyers and insurance companies taking their bite while providing no value-added to society. Greed by lawyers. Greed by suers. Greed by pharmaceutical companies. Greed by so-called doctors who are in it for the money rather than to help people. Greed by people who are trying to cheat death by insisting on extreme treatments way past the time that they should have just let go and let the inevitable happen. Recently there was a feature (on CBS 60-minutes I think) in which it was pointed out that something like half (I think it was) of all medicare expense is paid out for medical tests and procedures for people who are terminally ill and in the last two months of life ... many of them comatose for that entire time ... artificially kept alive on machines. That is an unconscionable waste of money that inflates so-called health-care costs for everybody else. Too many doctors keep the meter running by keeping people physically alive wy past the time they would be dead without pointless extraordinary measures. The whole so-called health-care nightmare is distorted way beyond reason ... by greed. Thus, it is not a fixable problem. Lawyer/legislators will never allow laws to be passed to put an end to outrageous lawsuits and insane awards for damages because it is their gravy train. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss ---
Operation (by root) not permitted
Hiya, Okay, I'm baffled. What in the Ubuntu 9.07 is going on here? # uname -a Linux BlueBeast.localhost 2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:57:59 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Logged in as root I've edited /etc/fstab. I want the /Meta vfat partition completely open (unlocked). # cat /etc/fstab # /Meta was /dev/sda5 UUID=45F2-140B /Meta vfatutf8,users,noauto 0 1 # mount /dev/sda5 on /Meta type vfat (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8) # cat /etc/mtab /dev/sda5 /Meta vfat rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8 0 0 # ls -al drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 1969-12-31 17:00 Meta # chgrp -hR users /Meta chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxMint.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxFedora.jpeg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxSuSE.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/NVIDIA-Linux-x86-190.53-pkg1.run': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta': Operation not permitted I can not figure out what in Ubuntu (Mint 7) stops root (#) from assigning permissions here. Can you? This vfat partition was created in SuSE 9.3 and used mkdosfs to create the file system. /Meta is a common mount point (folder?) for multiple of my Linux distros. But it's getting harder to use. As root, it functions okay (mostly) as a common data folder. I want to give access to all users of any current-booted Linux. In SuSE 10.3 the process required a new /etc/fstab entry followed by the chgrp command as above. But in Ubuntu, I'm a bit lost. Here I can see a disagreement between /etc/fstab and /etc/mtab that I can't reconcile. It may be a while before I can return to the PLUG mail list. So be patient with me. (-: Chas.M. :-) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Operation (by root) not permitted
Your problem is right there. You have noexec as a mount option. Remove it and everything should work. On Sunday 29 August 2010 21:52:13 ChasM Marshall wrote: Hiya, Okay, I'm baffled. What in the Ubuntu 9.07 is going on here? # uname -a Linux BlueBeast.localhost 2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:57:59 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Logged in as root I've edited /etc/fstab. I want the /Meta vfat partition completely open (unlocked). # cat /etc/fstab # /Meta was /dev/sda5 UUID=45F2-140B /Meta vfatutf8,users,noauto 0 1 # mount /dev/sda5 on /Meta type vfat (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8) # cat /etc/mtab /dev/sda5 /Meta vfat rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8 0 0 # ls -al drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 1969-12-31 17:00 Meta # chgrp -hR users /Meta chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxMint.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxFedora.jpeg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxSuSE.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/NVIDIA-Linux-x86-190.53-pkg1.run': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta': Operation not permitted I can not figure out what in Ubuntu (Mint 7) stops root (#) from assigning permissions here. Can you? This vfat partition was created in SuSE 9.3 and used mkdosfs to create the file system. /Meta is a common mount point (folder?) for multiple of my Linux distros. But it's getting harder to use. As root, it functions okay (mostly) as a common data folder. I want to give access to all users of any current-booted Linux. In SuSE 10.3 the process required a new /etc/fstab entry followed by the chgrp command as above. But in Ubuntu, I'm a bit lost. Here I can see a disagreement between /etc/fstab and /etc/mtab that I can't reconcile. It may be a while before I can return to the PLUG mail list. So be patient with me. (-: Chas.M. :-) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Operation (by root) not permitted
You are attempting to change Linux style group settings on files in a vfat file system. That will not work. The vfat file system does not have a way to set or change group ownership. The error message is not worded very well. It should say something like Cannot set group ownership in vfat (FAT32) file system Alan On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 9:52 PM, ChasM Marshall chasm...@hotmail.com wrote: Hiya, Okay, I'm baffled. What in the Ubuntu 9.07 is going on here? # uname -a Linux BlueBeast.localhost 2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:57:59 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Logged in as root I've edited /etc/fstab. I want the /Meta vfat partition completely open (unlocked). # cat /etc/fstab # /Meta was /dev/sda5 UUID=45F2-140B /Meta vfat utf8,users,noauto 0 1 # mount /dev/sda5 on /Meta type vfat (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8) # cat /etc/mtab /dev/sda5 /Meta vfat rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,utf8 0 0 # ls -al drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 1969-12-31 17:00 Meta # chgrp -hR users /Meta chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/Linux': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/TextTest.txt': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxMint.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxFedora.jpeg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/FireFoxSuSE.jpg': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta/NVIDIA-Linux-x86-190.53-pkg1.run': Operation not permitted chgrp: changing group of `/Meta': Operation not permitted I can not figure out what in Ubuntu (Mint 7) stops root (#) from assigning permissions here. Can you? This vfat partition was created in SuSE 9.3 and used mkdosfs to create the file system. /Meta is a common mount point (folder?) for multiple of my Linux distros. But it's getting harder to use. As root, it functions okay (mostly) as a common data folder. I want to give access to all users of any current-booted Linux. In SuSE 10.3 the process required a new /etc/fstab entry followed by the chgrp command as above. But in Ubuntu, I'm a bit lost. Here I can see a disagreement between /etc/fstab and /etc/mtab that I can't reconcile. It may be a while before I can return to the PLUG mail list. So be patient with me. (-: Chas.M. :-) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
