Re: Killing PLUG softly
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 22:17 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: well thats the risk you take when you participate in a discussion... if you have absolutely no connection to your audience they are going to reject. Waste of time. I don't see anyone doing automated spamming, just some people who want to blow everything out of proportion whenever they encounter an opinion they can't deal with. personally, I am bored with politics - I think it's just about divisiveness and exclusion but clearly if I wanted vigorous and intellectual political debate, I would not come to PLUG for that. Clearly you don't appreciate how many people just want you to STFU or simply don't care. I would ask you to pick a number of how many people have to sign on to to 'JMZ - STFU' before you will cease and hopefully go away. How many? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Killing PLUG softly
On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 08:59 -0700, JD Austin wrote: Honestly Craig have you ever in your entire life been successful to get someone to STFU by demanding they STFU ? I haven't. In fact the more I demand that they STFU the more passionate they get about the subject. Pick a number of how many times you think asking someone to STFU will allow that to be successful :) Telling people to STFU is like throwing water on a grease fire! you're right - I'm unsubscribing - enjoy Question - where would you go for a vigorous and intellectual political debate? clearly not here Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote: On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: Wake up and smell the coffee. This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux. Can this please be ended? This thread has run its course. obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: editing pdfs
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 13:13 -0700, Ariel Gold wrote: I'm trying to edit a pdf to delete, change, and add text and hyperlinks. ANyone recommend how to do this? I've tried pdfedit, but I couldn't figure it out, and the documentation didn't seem to address how to add a link.. Installed through ubuntu karmic repository. Thought a newer version might help so I downloaded source and get this error on ./configure checking if zlib is wanted... configure: error: libz not found If someone can help me get pdfedit to do what I want, or suggest another tool that would be great. pdfedit is probably it though last time I checked, it was fairly weak and frustrating and it seems that for straight editing, Acrobat Professional is probably the only game in town. That said, you can generally open up PDF's in OpenOffice, edit and then save it again as a PDF so you might want to see if that works for you. Then there is pdftk which seems to be available in most distributions which is an extremely handy toolkit but it doesn't add text/hyperlinks unless you use 'forms' and use pdftk to insert form data (FDF). Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 16:09 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Tue, 18 May 2010, Craig White wrote: On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote: On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: Wake up and smell the coffee. This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux. Can this please be ended? This thread has run its course. obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent. You have to remember that every group has it's crusading self centered lunatic fringe who are determined to save the world by belaboring everyone within earshot with their crackpot politics. Even Linux users. :::sigh::: I suppose so - it's pointless to engage them too which is why I have stayed out. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 16:24 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: I think thats why they made the media $h!tstorm. It poses a huge threat to them, because the fact is, removing illegals is going to be highly beneficial to our local economy. It's much better to be employing tax paying American citizens. Add to that the related problems of crime, drugs, etc. its a clear win for Arizona. They don't want a domino effect happening. It's utterly ridiculous to be paying out so much in unemployment while also paying social service subsidies to non-Americans who work the jobs the unemployed would have. Gov. Arnold's solution to the problem: cut all welfare. If I were a non-billionaire legal Californian, I would be utterly furious. California is quickly degrading, hopefully if we keep doing what we've been doing for the past month or so, we'll be ok. Actually, we'll be a very desirable place to live (this means your house is worth more). I guess I don't understand what any of this has to do with Linux and why it's being discussed except to provide a barometer of people's ability to analyze what has been happening and of course their political views. I would prefer that this entire thread just die. FTR - there's been a war on drugs for 40+ years and it hasn't stopped it. In fact, it's much worse today than ever. A huge number of these so called 'illegals' have left the country, there is no work. Check out all of the 'For Rent' apartments in traditionally Mexican areas - they can't give them away. The problem Arizona has is mostly a perceptual problem because of clowns like Sheriff Joe, Andy Thomas and others who use their power poorly and thus the rest of the country is over-reacting to Arizona's over reaction but the perceptual problem is that the police in Arizona will use this new law to justify profiling and anyone who understands things like DWB understands the problems with profiling. It's not just California and Arizona that are disintegrating - it's the entire country because big business has seized control and the money they can toss around to manipulate politicians, media, laws, etc. have made a complete mess of everything. The truth is that prosperity in America has always been built on the backs of cheap labor and chasing people back to Mexico will do little to bring prosperity to America. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: [OT] ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 00:40 +, huerta...@gmail.com wrote: It should be marked as OT. The thread doesn't really have anything to do with Linux anymore. it never did. It does however illustrate the perceptual problem that people living elsewhere have with Arizona. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 19:12 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:08 PM, j...@actionline.com wrote: http://huertanix.tumblr.com wrote: Ubsubscried, What does Ubsubscried mean? It means: I'm going to throw a hissy fit if anyone calls illegal aliens what they are. it means that there are some who cannot exert self control and abuse this list to push their political views. I'm somewhat close to unsubscribing at this point. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: facebook intrusiveness
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 17:09 -0600, j...@actionline.com wrote: I don't use facebook much ... mainly only to respond to friends and family who send stuff to me. It just seems rather intrusive and confusing to me. Recently, facebook has been popping up a window that wants me to confirm some links that it threatens to put on my facebook page and forces me to either confirm them all or click on a link with check boxes for various things that I am told I have to uncheck if I don't want those links included on my page. Everything on my page is grayed out and I am forced to respond to facebook's demands in one way or another. Below is the message I see in their popped up window that locks up everything else: Confirm the Pages that will be on your profile Uncheck any Page you don't want to link to. Linking to education and work Pages may also create additional Pages, such as for your major or job title. If you don't link to any Pages, these sections on your profile will be empty. By linking your profile to Pages, you will be making these connections public. Learn more. facebook is getting hammered for lack of privacy issues so they are attempting to give a user control over what is and what isn't available for everyone who is NOT a friend. It's a good start but yes, it obviously has its side effects as you have noticed. Of course, you could turn off the privacy features... Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Postfix smtp auth problem
you can increase the logging level of postfix sasl authentication to help troubleshoot but if I was going to take an off-hand guess, I would guess that cyrus-saslauthd wasn't configured for pam (or whatever you need for authentication backend) Craig On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 23:35 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: LOL - I know I have done it before with postfix MySQL but 1) I was folowing a set of majic spells and never botherd to learn because it was a one off thing - but it worked esaly :) 2) I inherited a broken implementation and I can not get it to change no matter what I do - I ca not turn it off, on, change the error, no matter what I do. If I could not change other aspects of the server I would wonder if the service was not on a different box! This lead to my frustration with SASL on this box. On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 20:36 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: I firmly agree however Eric believed it was an issue with cyrus - which I am not using. As far as SASL authentication - Only the mobile clients are trying to use SASL. The desktop clients work perfectly without it. I have tried disabling it in main.cf but the mobile clients are still trying to use it. I can not figure out why! So I now believe I need to just try and get it working again but I can not find a pure Postfix/SMTP how too. Links to both SASL TLS authentication http://www.postfix.org/documentation.html I don't understand your reticence to implementing saslauthd - it's trivial. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Postfix smtp auth problem
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 15:35 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: I see nothing in /etc/courier-imap/ that would levee me to believe this is true. There must be a way to not use SASL - since the desktop clients are not using SASL. I do not see the point in setting up a base 64 SASL authentication just for one set of phones. What I can not figure out is! My configuration is postfix + courier w/ ssl/tsl + maildir + spam assasin what does this have to do with courier anyway? If you are trying to authenticate to send e-mail via postfix, the methodology is clearly described on postfix.org website and yes, it uses saslauthd which is a cyrus package but entirely separate from cyrus-imap/courier/etc. It's primarily a small daemon that provides the link to your system authentication and rather trivial to set up (note that you probably have to enable it in postfix/main.cf). Postfix uses sasl for authorization and if you have a system in place that is capable of authenticating sasl (ldap?) then you could probably work around not install cyrus-saslauthd but it would be much more work. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: free MPEG-2 decoder
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 20:28 -0700, keith smith wrote: Hi, I'm running XP and need a free MPEG-2 decoder so I can watch DVD's. I see there are some however who knows who to trust. Any recommendations? VLC I have used it on Linux but I know there is a version for every OS Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Need Help With MYSQL InnoDB
On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 18:35 -0700, Mark Phillips wrote: I have a very small mysql database that uses innodb tables. I just started getting the following error when I try to access the tables: ERROR 1033 (HY000): Incorrect information in file: './mailserver/virtual_users.frm' I google the error and it seems to have something to do with either the error logs being too large or the database being too large. When I 'show VARIABLES' at the mysql prompt I found: innodb_data_file_pathibdata1:10M:autoextend innodb_log_file_size 5242880 innodb_log_files_in_group 2 I looked in /var/lib/mysql and found li84-151:/home/mark# ls -al /var/lib/mysql total 10276 drwxr-xr-x 4 mysql mysql 4096 2010-05-04 17:15 . drwxr-xr-x 26 root root 4096 2009-10-26 08:28 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 mysql mysql0 2009-10-14 15:40 debian-5.0.flag -rw-rw 1 mysql mysql 10485760 2010-04-15 09:00 ibdata1 drwx-- 2 mysql mysql 4096 2009-08-31 07:09 mailserver drwxr-xr-x 2 mysql mysql 4096 2009-10-14 15:40 mysql -rw--- 1 mysql mysql7 2009-06-26 13:13 mysql_upgrade_info -rw-rw 1 mysql mysql 5242880 2010-04-15 09:00 ib_logfile0 -rw-rw 1 mysql mysql 5242880 2009-07-12 09:25 ib_logfile1 Based on some reading on the mysql site (version 5.0 on Debian Lenny) I removed the two ib_logfile and restarted mysql. I still get the same error. Based on the mysql docs, I thought the autoextend for the innodb_data_file_path would automatically take care of the data file growing beyond the file size limit. Is this correct? Do I have to increase the size of the innodb_data_file to make this error go away? How do I do that? Also, these tables have not changed since they were created, so I am pondering how the data file has grown. Any suggestions? check out... http://www.danielschneller.com/2007/09/error-1033-hy000-on-innodb.html Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: clam tk
On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 07:52 -0700, betty wrote: well, no, of course i am not running anything complicated (surely you jest !) as you know my non-existent level of expertise. the primary reason why i got the program, and it is running fine (i guess, how would i know?) is that after 10 years of linux and never using a virus program, i got an email from a friend that was obviously a bad thing, didn't even open it of course, but nevertheless, it came into my mailbox. then after that, firefox started running weird. (maybe coincidence. so then i got concerned since i always hear buzz about even linux and mac are not immune blahblah blah.) so what the heck i installed it. anyway, now everything seems to work fine. i'll be s interested in what the list says. When all you have is a hammer, everything tends to look like a nail. I noticed that as I acquired the skills/tools to minimize spam on my customers mail servers, some of them became paranoid that their mail server wasn't working because the spam in their inbox provided a bit of 'visual comfort' to them and when spam stopped showing up, they lost that indicator. That's sort of like logging all the dropped packets on a firewall (iptables?). It's not the packets that are blocked that you need to worry about. Clearly ClamAV is very useful on e-mail servers. But signature based pattern matching is incredibly inefficient and imprecise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antivirus_software - pay attention to the section on 'Effectiveness' Probably the most significant issue is that the typical Windows or Macintosh user runs as super-user and even knowledgeable people can be tricked into executing malicious software. So Windows and Macintosh try to implement various methods of 'User Access Control' so people can still run as super-user and hopefully be afforded some protection - of course they know it doesn't actually work so well in real life... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2335122,00.asp (see the last paragraph on the first page). So if you aren't running a mail server or a file server for Windows users and it gives you some comfort to run ClamAV scanning, by all means, go for it. If the wasted computer cycles are significant enough to impair your ability to use the computer, then you probably have more problems with your computer than ClamAV. Recognize that as an AV scanner compared to Windows based virus scan software, ClamAV ranked rather poorly... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam_AntiVirus see the section on 'Comparisons' If you really care about security on any OS - do not run as super-user... period, end of story. As for Firefox... the easiest way to make it run like crap is to install Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash. Jobs is right about one thing for sure - Flash sucks and HTML 5 is definitely going to be much better for everyone. I'm conveniently ignoring the fact that Apple is not the least bit interested in open source unless it sells more of their proprietary/closed source devices. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: samba config
On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 20:56 -0700, Nadim Hoque wrote: Hey So I switched to ubuntu server 9.10 and I need to configure samba. What I want to do is share folders in which only the owner has access to. For instance I want to share my external drive and I am the owner of that folder and only if I put my credentials based off of the server information regarding my account. Now I also want possibly other groups to have access as well (this does not have to be just this folder in general), essentially I want it to use acls. Below is the config file that I currently have. When I was using open suse it allowed be to use current users on the system as users for samba. [global] workgroup = WORKGROUP encrypt passwords = yes wins support = no max log size = 2000 passdb backend = tdbsam [homes] comment = %u's Home Directory browsable = no read only = no map archive = yes [My_Book] comment = This is the My book with the movies/tvshows inherit acls = Yes path = /media/My\ Book guest ok = no read only = No # write = Yes # valid users = nadim [common] comment = This is the common forlder on the local hard drive inherit acls = yes path = /home/common guest ok = no read only = no # write = yes valid users = nadim grant #1 - userland mounted external hard drives (/media) are not really suitable for using with samba. Samba expects a root mount. Put your entry into /etc/fstab for this external drive, mount it and leave it alone. To get ACL's, I think you are going to need a file system that supports extended attributes (and of course use them in /etc/fstab) which tends to leave out the typical FAT/VFAT filesystems used in many external hard drives. #2 - you can create samba users/groups but they should either be the same as system users/groups or you have to specifically map them. Note that samba users have to have a password too. #3 - You should probably set group permissions and even use group sticky bits on subdirectories. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: samba config
On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 07:52 -0700, Stephen wrote: I oddly enough cheat on samba and use webmin to navigate its configuration. it helps quite a bit. http://www.webmin.com/ I don't think it is odd... it has a good system for creating samba users simultaneously with system users (but I never did get it to add the same password in samba for each user and had to set the password separately - maybe they fixed that) I tend to always use LDAP now and actually use Webmin's LDAP Users Groups module to manage users and find that actually works for me. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: samba config
On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 14:51 +, Nadim Hoque wrote: Just to let you know I did mount the external in fstab already and all of my drives are ext 3 or 4 (ill check later). But I will try the group sticky notes. But other than these issues, is my smb.conf file pretty good? Another thing, do samba users also need the same passwords as the user on the linux machine? execute the command (as root...) testparm -sv /tmp/samba-config.txt and you can see the output from all the default values (those not specified in your configuration) As for passwords... samba keeps a password for each user which uses the NT Hash mechanism and is obviously not compatible with various mechanisms on Linux/UNIX. Thus on a samba server, I would have a Posix/Linux user 'craig', with a password and then a samba user 'craig', with a password and it can be entirely different. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: difficulty regarding (links pointing to) lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 09:23 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: They all appear to resolve ok for me: shu...@edwin:~$ host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us lists.plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.164 lists.plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 30 ns4.LuftHans.com. lists.plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 10 lists.plug.phoenix.az.us. shu...@edwin:~$ host www.plug.phoenix.az.us www.plug.phoenix.az.us is an alias for plug.phoenix.az.us. plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 plug.phoenix.az.us.shubes.net is an alias for tacs-net.shubes.net. shu...@edwin:~$ host plug.phoenix.az.us plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 10 ns4.LuftHans.com. shu...@edwin:~$ My resolver is (ultimately) qwest. FWIW. I was getting those same results yesterday... $ host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us lists.plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.164 Host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) [cr...@lin-workstation ~]$ host plug.phoenix.az.us plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 Host plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) [cr...@lin-workstation ~]$ host www.plug.phoenix.az.us www.plug.phoenix.az.us is an alias for plug.phoenix.az.us. plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 Host plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) and today... (no need to repeat) Now plug.phoenix.az.us is working - not www.plug.phoenix.az.us which may well have been an invention in my mind but I believe that previous incarnations of PLUG web server used to serve it up but now, even though DNS points it to the same machine, the web server balks - probably not a big deal (it's more typing). Since I was getting the same ip results as above both yesterday and today, I have to believe that something changed, either the web server or some router because http://plug.phoenix.az.us did not work for me yesterday. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: difficulty regarding (links pointing to) lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 11:38 -0700, Stephen wrote: Again all of this is resolving just fine for me. with no errors. Have you tried looking with an alternate DNS or at least flushing them? On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 09:23 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: They all appear to resolve ok for me: shu...@edwin:~$ host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us lists.plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.164 lists.plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 30 ns4.LuftHans.com. lists.plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 10 lists.plug.phoenix.az.us. shu...@edwin:~$ host www.plug.phoenix.az.us www.plug.phoenix.az.us is an alias for plug.phoenix.az.us. plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 plug.phoenix.az.us.shubes.net is an alias for tacs-net.shubes.net. shu...@edwin:~$ host plug.phoenix.az.us plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 plug.phoenix.az.us mail is handled by 10 ns4.LuftHans.com. shu...@edwin:~$ My resolver is (ultimately) qwest. FWIW. I was getting those same results yesterday... $ host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us lists.plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.164 Host lists.plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) [cr...@lin-workstation ~]$ host plug.phoenix.az.us plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 Host plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) [cr...@lin-workstation ~]$ host www.plug.phoenix.az.us www.plug.phoenix.az.us is an alias for plug.phoenix.az.us. plug.phoenix.az.us has address 140.99.58.163 Host plug.phoenix.az.us not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) and today... (no need to repeat) Now plug.phoenix.az.us is working - not www.plug.phoenix.az.us which may well have been an invention in my mind but I believe that previous incarnations of PLUG web server used to serve it up but now, even though DNS points it to the same machine, the web server balks - probably not a big deal (it's more typing). Since I was getting the same ip results as above both yesterday and today, I have to believe that something changed, either the web server or some router because http://plug.phoenix.az.us did not work for me yesterday. yes, I flushed the DNS cache I think you are not reading what I wrote. The DNS responses are and have always been the same. I just checked now and www.plug.phoenix.az.us works but it didn't earlier today nor yesterday. I suspect that someone is fixing the web server and not fessing up. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: difficulty regarding (links pointing to) lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
On Mon, 2010-04-19 at 16:13 -0700, Mike Schwartz wrote: The web page http://plug.phoenix.az.us/email_lists has several links to URLs of the form http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-devel that is, links containing the domain name lists.plug.phoenix.az.us to the right of the double slash. I noticed today (this am, and then again this afternoon) that there was some difficulty dereferencing those links (going to those URLs) . (I tried this using both Firefox [3.6.3] [w/ Mozilla/5.0 Gecko/20100401] and Google Chrome [4.1.249.1045 (42898)] today.) Both browsers -- (Firefox and Chrome) -- were unable to find the server lists.plug.phoenix.az.us. Is this something temporary? and/or, it is something that the PLUG server maintainer persons know about, but which takes a while (a long time) to fix? (for the issue to be addressed?) OR (aha) is it me? (is no one else seeing the same problem?) OR is http://plug.phoenix.az.us/email_lists somehow deprecated (in which case I 'should have known' to use some alternate for it, and not to use it, and not even to TRY to use [CLICK on] the links that it contains?) clearly there is a problem... http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us #works http://www.plug.phoenix.az.us#fails http://plug.phoenix.az.us#fails and obviously any specific url's off the failing base url's will fail too. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: file size on disk vs used drastically different
On Thu, 2010-04-15 at 10:18 -0700, Shawn Badger wrote: I came across a weird problem this morning. What would cause a file to be reported as 251M for used space and 1.3G for size on disk? [r...@cc1lnx5 axprac]# ls -sh cafrap_1.dbf; ls -lh cafrap_1.dbf 251M cafrap_1.dbf -rw-r- 1 oraxprac axprac 1.3G Apr 15 09:47 cafrap_1.dbf [r...@cc1lnx5 axprac]# I have seen this to a smaller extent with some files but never a variance of this size. This file happens to be an Oracle 11G database table file. I would tend to expect any database files to vary in size based upon usage and most of them have external utilities available to compact/vacuum/clean (terminology varies from one db to another) but essentially to remove old rows and reduce file size. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
no commentary on SCO v. Novell ?
http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=2153 perhaps expected but jury ruled SCO did not have the copyrights. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
The good thing about standards...
The good thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from... especially when you propose one standard, it is rejected, then the subsequent standard is approved but you only implement the one that was rejected. http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx While I am convinced that today is proof positive that Steve Jobs is PT Barnum reincarnated, the above link pretty much clarifies why interchangeable data between applications is impossible. Because they never had any intentions of incorporating the standards that they had written. It's clear to me that both Apple and Microsoft believe that people just don't care that both companies have every intention of making you pay for perceived convenience while working feverishly to obscure the efforts that they spend to limit your options. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no commentary on SCO v. Novell ?
On Sat, 2010-04-03 at 17:20 -0600, Kevin Fries wrote: SCO was a second class player in the UNIX world behind BSD and Sun. Then they switched to Linux, and became a second class player behind Debian and Red Hat. This is the sign of a poorly run business. Having failed twice, SCO then did the unthinkable, the took large amounts of money from Microsoft. Next thing you know, they are right in the middle of a FUD (Fear, Uncertainly, and Disinformation) campaign. Coincidence? I for one don't think so. SCO was a pawn, sent to their doom by a company who is trying desperately to hold onto their illegal monopoly. The real loser in all of this was Microsoft. They pent allot of money tking a two bit loser of a company and propped them up in an attempt to cause the Linux community to self destruct. Not only has it not worked, they have had to put more resources in than they wanted, and have been completely sucker punched by Apple. I don't recall how much money Microsoft gave to SCO but I don't recall it being much more than a few hundred million which in corporate world of today's finance is just chump change considering the intent to slow open source/free software adoption. I don't get the sucker punched by Apple comment at all. In fact, I see Apple and Microsoft as very complicit players these days and the competition is more of an illusion than real. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no commentary on SCO v. Novell ?
On Sat, 2010-04-03 at 15:04 -0700, Craig White wrote: http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=2153 perhaps expected but jury ruled SCO did not have the copyrights. on topic... Bizarre Cathedral cartoon http://fsmsh.com/3315 Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: no commentary on SCO v. Novell ?
On Sat, 2010-04-03 at 18:35 -0600, Kevin Fries wrote: Apple was sitting on a bucket load of cash with no idea what to do with it. Microsoft underestimated the strength of the Linux community. Felt that a few bucks and legal support to Score would cause the Linux menence to go away... when it didn't work, they put in several more infusions of cash. Meanwhile, with Microsoft distracted with world domination, the player that MS saw as the lesser threat dumped bucket loads of cash into both RD and advertising. This attack came out of nowhere, unless you were paying close attention to the underlying market forces. Apple laid in the weeds, waited for MS to over react, then hit them. They now increased their desktop presence by more than 10% of the total market, are seen as the innovator they once were, an have given MS a market headache far greater than the one they went after when they wrote Apple off for Dead. Personally, I call that a first class sucker punch #1 - what did Apple innovate lately? I must have missed it because I've been using Linux for too long now. #2 - I haven't seen a report that Apple is getting more than 7.3% of desktop OS sales... http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/01/01/survey-mac-os-hit-record-73-share-in-december-iphone-up-33/ where do you get this 10% figure? #3 - I suppose that one could conceivably debate how Windows 7 has essentially blunted any UI differences with OS X but it's pretty much ho hum in my view either way... both are essentially cut from the same cloth. The only OS less interesting in businesses than Windows 7 is OS X. But Microsoft wins just by entrenchment alone. Now as for real innovation... let's give the world a very large iPod touch without the ability to use any of the accessories already available, get people to pony up for accessories that should have been standard features and induce them to subscribe for services like magazines, newspapers, television content and maybe another $30 a month for ATT. Love that. I think the emperor has no clothes. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: which t-mobile android phone?
On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 20:58 -0700, Alan Dayley wrote: On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:43 PM, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: Am 16. Mär, 2010 schwätzte Alan Dayley so: - The Motorola models are TVO-ized. They check all binaries for a specific signature. No signature, the binary will not run. This means only official builds of OS can be used on those phones. In other words, don't get one from Motorola if you want to change the software. I have friends with the Motorola Cliq who love the phone except that they can only update it via official releases, which are slow coming. Do you mean the OS is TIVOized or also apps? Android Market is working and supposedly other apps will work as well. Official release from Mot or official android releases? Great questions to which I don't know the details. I have two friends who have the Cliq. Both of them complained that they could not go use unofficial builds of the OS and so were behind in the Android version they were running. So, I suppose that means the OS is locked. The apps, well, I don't know. If they are also signed and locked, Motorola would have to maintain a separate marketplace, which does not seem likely. How would it differ from other Android phones? Does HTC do it different for its branded Android phones? As far as I know all the HTC phones can be rooted and have the OS replaced entirely, should you want to do so. I don't know about the Cliq because I own a Motorola Droid but I KNOW that the Droid can be rooted and you can easily replace the ROM image including overclocked kernels, etc. I saw that they deferred software upgrades on the Cliq which would cause me a great hesitation as they are still apparently on something like version 1.5/1.6 and I have 2.1 on my Droid (screw waiting for Verizon to do the OTA update). HTC has their own 'Sense' UI software but if you want to use 2.1, there are images out there and apparently HTC does have a pending update at some point the next month or so to 2.1 with their Sense UI. Fundamentally, I don't know of any software implementation differences between the various brands of Google phones but the hardware obviously varies and HTC (with their Sense) has modified/different functionality (subjectively better or worse) but they all can be rooted, custom ROM, etc. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Android phone OS releases
On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 21:03 -0700, der.hans wrote: moin moin, I thought someone said the Cliq is Android 1.6 or something, but can't find the reference. Alan mentioned that we have to wait for updates. Do OS upgrades depend on the handset manufacturers or the wireless carrier or both? If so, are there any comparisons or ways to track when updates will be coming out? For one or two phones I want to stay with the manufacturer/carrier version and rely on them for updates. But, I do want updates and good service. 2 choices... - wait for the wireless carrier to release the update that comes from the handset manufacturer. In the case of the Cliq, you are sort of screwed for now. - install a non-official ROM image Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: [W'post.com] ('via' ACM): Dismantling of Saudi-CIA Web Site Illustrates Need for Clearer Cyberwar Policies
On Sat, 2010-03-20 at 09:30 -0700, Ed wrote: um, If the enemy thinks their own IT guy crashed the site, then it was a covert operation (or a bug). If the site goes down and the redirect goes to a .mill domain, then it is a traditional military activity (or a bug). In love and war, almost everything can (now) be attributed to a bug and stop asking the lawyers about technical things - if you lawyer up the world, it will stop spinning(RTFM). Note... The Washington Post ceased to be relevant years ago. Possibly Dana Priest might be one of the only few people left there that have a smidgen of credibility left but if this or the WSJ is where you get your news, you're in deep trouble. There are many reasons that newspapers are dying out and credibility is certainly among the top. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Google chrome title bar missing
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 15:19 -0600, j...@actionline.com wrote: Google chrome has some nice features, but it is also missing some very important things. Why is there no title bar? I frequently use the window-shade roll-up on windows to hide the contents but keep them visible (instead of minimizing to the start-panel), but I'm unable to do that with chrome. Also, pdf files are not viewable with chrome. Can't find any fix for that from searching the 'net so hope someone on the Plug list can explain a fix. I don't know about the title bar but it would seem to be a configuration option but I too would expect it to be on by default. As for the PDF plugin, I am presuming that you installed Adobe Reader before you installed Chrome so you would have to link the plugin if it doesn't automatically do it for you but my experience with Firefox and Adobe Reader plugin is that it is a memory pig and it is generally better to not use it at all but rather have the PDF files downloaded and opened directly with Adobe Reader application and then you don't have Firefox gagging on memory. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Obtaining the location of an IP using PHP
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 18:37 -0700, Daniel Stasinski wrote: I need to take that IP and convert it into a location. http://www.maxmind.com/app/php +1 for maxmind (the CityLite database) Every time I double check against Google's GeoIP it does better but admittedly, I have probably verified less than 100 of them. Of course Qwest is awful at reporting IP addresses in the valley and Cox is ok but not terrific. The cell carriers... forget it. I was very surprised at how incredibly easy it was to integrate maxmind's stuff in RoR and for that matter, ruby's GeoKit and ym4r_gm for finding by distance and mapping. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Obtaining the location of an IP using PHP
On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 21:33 -0700, Daniel Stasinski wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote:
+1 for maxmind (the CityLite database)
Every time I double check against Google's GeoIP it
does better but admittedly, I have probably verified
less than 100 of them.
For the free version, which is updated monthly, accuracy is over 99.5%
on a country level and 79% on a city level for the US within a 25 mile
radius.
Horseshoes and hand grenades only... But clearly it's the best we got.
I'm not going to argue the statistics but I can tell you for sure that
Qwest users in Scottsdale often report Peoria and Business Qwest users
in Scottsdale report Phoenix (though Phoenix probably falls within the
25 mile accuracy level). The 1000+ it has resolved on my website are
mostly impossible to tell the accuracy unless I know for sure which
connection is which and I rarely do.
Proxy services such as AOL completely defeat identification (I get the
country). Why anyone actually still uses AOL software I have no idea but
yes, they do identify as USA.
Mobile carriers simply don't identify well at all. They only give me
USA. Blackberry web users are few and far between though.
For example, a Sprint customer (68.28.59.112)...
{:country_code=US, :longitude=-97.0, :country_code3=USA,
:latitude=38.0, :country_name=United States}
Blackberry...68.171.233.24
{:country_code=US, :longitude=-97.0, :country_code3=USA,
:latitude=38.0, :country_name=United States}
Verizon is no better
Just saying...
Craig
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Re: which t-mobile android phone?
On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 15:26 -0700, Alan Dayley wrote: I could be wrong or out of date with some of my information. Tethering is possible with http://www.junefabrics.com/android/index.php but requires a client on the computer and does not have a Linux client. And is not Free. Check the article and comments at http://lifehacker.com/5447347/how-to-tether-your-android-phone for more tether information. That Verizon advertises tethering is a surprise to me. Seems like T-Mobile better get on it! Two for one on the Nexus! Wish I needed one! well I have a Verizon/Motorola Android (never tried to root it) and I would be interested in getting info on Verizon supported tethering which I saw was announced for 1st quarter 2010 but I have yet to see anything concrete. Apparently I am due an upgrade to 2.1 OS any day now which appears to be worthwhile and I actually like the phone. The junefabrics (PDANet) isn't useful to me because I would likely want to use my Linux Netbook (Aspire One booted to Fedora, not Windows) but wouldn't have enough usage to justify a large expenditure. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: which t-mobile android phone?
On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 14:26 -0700, Alan Dayley wrote: - The Motorola models are TVO-ized. They check all binaries for a specific signature. No signature, the binary will not run. This means only official builds of OS can be used on those phones. In other words, don't get one from Motorola if you want to change the software. I have friends with the Motorola Cliq who love the phone except that they can only update it via official releases, which are slow coming. AFAICT, at least for the Motorola Droid, there is no lack of rooting options and alternative software available... http://alldroid.org/search.php?searchid=368560 or you can Google 'Petes Bugless Beast' and I would venture that quite a few other options are around. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Method of packaging software for shipment
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 10:19 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: Hello all, I am wrapping a web application that is meant for installation on my customer's servers. Does anyone have experience packaging up software for shipment? What tools do you use? Can you offer any advice? probably just a tar/gzip but that would actually depend on what the application language is (php?) and what if any resources need to be made available (i.e. scripts for initializing an sql db, etc.) and also the platform (i.e. redhat only, or linux in general or all possible OS types). Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Method of packaging software for shipment
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 14:47 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: It needs to be deployed to Linux and Windows. I can't just tar /dir because I have .svn files I don't want to include as well as test directories. I planned on using a form of tar/zip. ignoring that this really should have been on the development mail list... svn help export I can't imagine a single good reason for using an existing directory instead of exporting specific 'tags' from svn and using that for packaging except that there really wasn't much understanding and planning in svn. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: Method of packaging software for shipment
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 19:53 -0600, Alex Dean wrote: On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:08 PM, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 14:47 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: It needs to be deployed to Linux and Windows. I can't just tar /dir because I have .svn files I don't want to include as well as test directories. I planned on using a form of tar/zip. ignoring that this really should have been on the development mail list... svn help export I can't imagine a single good reason for using an existing directory instead of exporting specific 'tags' from svn and using that for packaging except that there really wasn't much understanding and planning in svn. Can't speak for anyone else, but at least in my case I think there was quite a lot of understanding and planning. If the build machine already has a recent working copy of the branch you want to build, switching to a different branch or getting the last bug fix with 'svn up' or 'svn switch' is a lot simpler and faster than getting another full 'svn export'. I tend to think bigger picture and don't resort to simplifications just because they are simpler or faster. Reasons that come immediately to my mind to only use an svn export (from a specific 'tag': - stability - you can always see what was packaged by doing a checkout in another directory or on another computer. - repeatability - you will always get the same files regardless of where, how you package them. - durability - one of the reasons you chose a version control system in the first place... that if the system that you built it on or saved it on isn't available, you still can get the files that comprised the package. - identification - easy enough to tag and identify which version but if you have some 'build machine with a recent working copy of the branch', that machine is going to change if not within minutes, certainly in some days. There's a reason that management systems and practices are developed and rarely do they focus on simpler or faster. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installfest this Saturday - PLUG website dead?
On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 14:32 -0700, Stephen wrote: This is actually something i have been planning for a few weeks now... More incentive to set this up, but it will likely go on its on VM on my server than locally. Im not sure if i want to use DHCP on my server or DHCP on myGateway yet. I have yet to see any appliance DHCP server approach the feature set you get on a full ISC DHCP server including... dynamic dns, retention of lease addresses (so they don't keep moving around), Windows specific features, etc. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installfest this Saturday - PLUG website dead?
On Sun, 2010-02-28 at 10:34 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Running your own caching resolver is pretty trivial on RHEL/Fedora. Just need to install the caching-nameserver package (which pulls in deps when you use yum to install it). You then need to have: nameserver 127.0.0.1 first in your /etc/resolv.conf file so it gets used. If your computer is directly attached to the cox modem, that'll be a pain as dhcp resets your resolv.conf file. If you're using cox, you really should have a router with nat between your computer and the cox modem though, so your computer isn't sitting on a public address. I don't know off hand how to set up a local resolver on Ubuntu. I don't really need one myself because my IPCop is my resolver. ;) in the configuration of your network adaptor, you can turn off DHCP client changes to /etc/resolv.conf PEERDNS = no various ways to accomplish this depending upon whether you are using NetworkManager or not, which distro, etc. I thought ipcop provided dns forwarding to the DNS servers set up within ipcop and didn't actually provide any DNS resolution by itself so if you use DHCP on ipcop on a Cox connection, you are back on Cox's name servers. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 23:31 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: I am having my tech support look into it too. I requested they keep me posted on how they ended up doing it so I can post it here in case others are interested. If you find your notes, I'd appreciate any help you can offer, but don't spend too much time searching. Thanks for the tips! after I went to bed, it occurred to me that the fcgi gem is probably not all you need but you will also need gcc-c++ make autoconf kernel-headers to build a C program since before you can build the ruby fcgi gem, you have to install mod_fcgi for Apache. Unfortunately for you, mod_fcgi is not available as a pre-built module so you have to build it yourself. Suggest that you look here... http://fatpenguinblog.com/weinerdoodz/howto-how-to-install-fastcgi-and-rubyrails-on-redhat-enterprise/ for instructions on building the mod_fcgi module for apache. Don't bother building mysql, ruby or any of the other stuff as you already have it installed. Once you have that installed, it should be relatively simple to get the ruby fcgi gem to build and install. That said... it seems like the package has some severe issues if they are requiring you to use an outdated and ineffective delivery system like fcgi. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: ubuntu 9.10
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:44 -0700, Stephen wrote: Recent Fedora installs are now a livecd as well no longer DVD's wrong - you simply have a choice of the installation DVD or a live-cd. There are DVD's for various cpu's (i386, x86_64, PPC, etc.) The live-cd is obviously a small footprint because of the 650 MB limitation. Even the DVD's are limited to about 4500 MB. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 17:50 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: Hello all, I am trying to install redmine, a ruby on rails application, but am having difficulty installing it. Its complaing about Could not find RubyGem rack (~ 1.0.1) I think I have 1.1.0 installed. Any ideas? This is my first RoR application, so its going a little slower than usual. I don't think rails 1.1.0 is going to be very useful if it's looking for rack gem What distro? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 18:13 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: sorry. Rack 1.1.0. Its CentOS. Its not my machine, its a production web server (VPS) I rent. I was able to install the gem, but now its complaing this way... RubyGem version error: rack(1.1.0 not ~ 1.0.1) My method for installing the gem is via cpanel's whm. I do have shell access. ok... gem help commands # useful to know gem update sources # probably takes a while to get all the updates gem update rails # make sure that you say yes to all dependencies gem update # update everything else because I assume # that if rails is at v 1.1.0 then everything is # way behind the times too... gem list --local # after you have done the others, do this and # you can report the output of this if you # are still having issues Generally, I would suggest that the best scenario for developing on Ruby on Rails is to develop on your local machine, use svn or git and commit your development to that and then deploy on a server when you are ready. Development can be slow on a remote host Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 18:13 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: sorry. Rack 1.1.0. Its CentOS. Its not my machine, its a production web server (VPS) I rent. I was able to install the gem, but now its complaing this way... RubyGem version error: rack(1.1.0 not ~ 1.0.1) My method for installing the gem is via cpanel's whm. I do have shell access. - oh - I just caught on to this cpanel junk... shell access != root access so you might have to execute those commands (the gem install/update, etc. commands via the cpanel because those all have to be done as root). The 'gem list --local' can be done as a user. Also, since you created this with an old/earlier version of rails, when all the gems are installed/updated, you would likely have to go into the directory as 'user' and then update using rake. rake --tasks # gives you a complete list of rake possibilities rake rails:update # I'm sure you are gonna have to do this after you # install the up to date gems (including rails) Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 19:12 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: whats the process for installing an older version of rack? 1.1.0 is the latest, but this software seems to require 1.0.1? I think that perhaps something is specifically requiring it like perhaps some statement in environment.rb - perhaps that is what must be cleaned up. but to answer your question... gem help commands # should have led you to... gem help install # which would surely answer your question Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Installing Redmine
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 22:55 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: This is my first time with Ruby. How do I work around the installation of such a package for this software platform (redmine)? Do you have an preferred online references regarding Ruby? It seems like you are trying to run a package, not actually learn ruby or rails. Ruby, the 'Pickaxe' book is the authorative version which I believe the first version is freely downloadable but not entirely up to date. I have the second version (dead tree form) which I believe is probably out of date but it is generally a ruby reference and not any specific help to rails applications but invaluable as a ruby reference. I honestly don't know what redmine is/does. If the objective is just to run this package and you want to not fight it, then I suspect that you will have to install httpd-devel package, then try to install fcgi again and then look at the log file referenced in the error message if it fails to build (obviously because something is missing). But you will also have to configure http to execute the fcgi and I've long forgotten how but you can surely find that by google searching. But in the end, fcgi is still a miserable, unstable way to run a rails application and passenger is very sweet. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 07:34 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting statement that using a framework for Ruby would be 4 times faster than coding in raw PHP. Have you used a PHP Framework? And if so did that speed up your development? no I haven't and I am aware of cake.php (and django for python). But if you think about, cake still has php as its underlying code base and with Rails, you not only get the framework but you get the OOP code base and it's elegance and readability which makes it so much easier to develop with and immensely easier to pick up even code months later (commented or uncommented) and discern what it does. PHP is comparatively messy and unstructured. I would suggest that cake.php is just putting lipstick on a pig. What you will find is that if your experience is .Net or PHP, that RoR makes web development fun again. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 15:48 -0800, keith smith wrote: Interesting. I appreciate your feedback. What is the learning curve like for RoR ? I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 16:36 -0800, keith smith wrote: --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: I found it refreshingly easier to learn and work with. Craig -- I worked with CodeIgniter sometime ago and found the learning curve to be more than I liked. I also found it to be confining. Maybe it was just me. I have since started to use the MVC pattern in PHP development, which helps with keeping the code clean. Controler in one file, Data in another, View in another. Much cleaner and might even speedup the development time. Rapid Application Development is something I have brought up on the PHP list several times, since I started on the command line, traveled through the RAD GUI era and am now doing browser based stuff. It feels like we are back in the DOS days of command-line development. We lack the ability to visually drag a widget onto a form and set it's configuration and move on to the next widget. Not only did you get what you saw, it was a lot faster. I'm always looking for ways to work faster and more efficiently but do not see it at this point. I have entertained Delphi for PHP because that may be the closest we get to a RAD GUI for building browser based applications. I'm very interested in hearing anyone's and everyone's responses. every framework that I have ever seen is confining...that is the point of a framework. And yes, they will have their own learning curves but you seem to toss away what benefits you actually derive from using the framework. In the case of RoR, you not only get a prescribed MVC structure, you inherit thousands of predefined methods (some languages would describe them as procedures), view helpers, db abstraction and integrated testing. Don't confuse the topics of development tools and language/frameworks - they are entirely separate issues. If you want rapid development with GUI interfaces, just use Filemaker or 4D or go back to FoxBase. Many years ago I saw a demonstration of Apple's Web Objects - very cool, but I never knew a soul who actually used it. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 21:50 -0700, Paul Mooring wrote:
I'd just like to point out that ruby was originally intended to be a
replacement for perl, primarily focused on being used for sys admin
type scripting, not a web language. I for one love ruby and do
essentially no web programming, I just can't live without the binding
operator ( ~= ) and perl's regular expressions, but love ruby's syntax
( and who wouldn't love something like '5.times { puts Ruby is the
greatest! }
or code like this (from an irb an interactive ruby session)
this_day = Date.today
= Sun, 21 Feb 2010
this_day + 3.months
= Fri, 21 May 2010
(this_day + 3.months).beginning_of_month
= Sat, 01 May 2010
or extending built-in classes...
class Float
def to_fl(digits)
sprintf(%.#{digits}f,self)
end
end
= nil
test2 = 3.141625
= 3.141625
test2.to_fl(3)
= 3.142
or iterating over arrays, etc.
The beauty of ruby is apparent, rails or not. But if you are doing a web
application with rails, you always have the full functionality of ruby.
Whenever something doesn't already exist for rails, you can add ruby
gems and if there isn't a ruby gem, you just write your code.
Then of course, you can simply open an irb and test out a section of
code without having to deal with a web browser, apache etc.
I find myself manipulating data in a db using the irb console rather
than phpmyadmin or mysql shell because it is so much easier to
loop/iterate/replace/save.
Craig
--
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Re: Re:
On Sat, 2010-02-20 at 19:27 -0700, Michael Havens wrote: website development seems like the only thing I would want to do so Ruby it is! Unfortunately, it isn't on my Ubuntuu install. When I tried to start it it told me to apt-get it. No internet connection. true but any programming efforts really need to be connected to the Internet anyway because you are going to want to google search, take sample bits of demo programs and save them and then run them and if you are trying to research with one computer that is connected to the Internet but learn on another computer that isn't, you will massively handicap your efforts. In the case of ruby, you can get the language installed but then if you want the rails framework, you would again need Internet connectivity to install the rails gem (and the dependencies). Even worse, it's really tough to learn Ruby on Rails from a book because development on the Ruby on Rails framework has been rapidly changing, rendering most books somewhat out of date by the time they reach dead tree form. You need to spend some energy getting your computers all on the Internet connection first. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Re:
On Sat, 2010-02-20 at 19:12 -0700, Joseph Sinclair wrote: Let's not devolve into a favorite language war. There are situations where Python is a great language choice, and situations where it's terrible. Every language choice comes down to what you want to accomplish. Some languages are good for rapid development of websites (Ruby, PHP, etc...). Some languages are good for systems management scripts (Python, Perl, etc...). Some languages are good for developing large web systems intended to be maintained for years (Java, others). Some languages are good for developing packaged COTS software (C++, Java, etc...). Some languages are good for system software and embedded devices (C, C++, etc...). Many languages are most useful in very specific niches (Forth, Lisp, ADA, XSLT, LOLCode, Objective-C, etc...) Most languages have multiple areas where they work well, and multiple areas where they're not so good. What exactly you want to accomplish in your software development should drive the language choice, although it rarely does. No one particular language is the best choice for learning how to write software; each type of software development will drive a different choice of the best first language to learn. Mike, you need to specify your goal more precisely in order for the community here to give you a useful recommendation that will help you best accomplish that goal. ==Joseph++ Kevin Fries wrote: Wow, now I know why it is so hard to hire people that are competent! Python is fun, not right, but fun... Thats your argument? If you want to know why we refuse to hire Python programmers at our company, I can give you real facts on why you should not use that language as a place to learn... Not opinions. and then of course there is the motivation to learn a language for gainful employment which in some circles would be none of the above. I think Kevin was looking at it from his particular employment angle. Personally, I am particularly amused by Joseph's placing both Ruby and PHP both in the same 'rapid web development' category because my experience has been that it takes me 1/4 to 1/5 the time to accomplish 'rapid web development' with RoR than it does with PHP. The only thing worse than trying to decipher 'other peoples' PHP code is trying to decipher 'other peoples' perl code. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Firefox just quit working. Why?
On Sat, 2010-02-20 at 21:08 -0700, Technomage wrote: On 2/20/10 9:00 PM, Josef Lowder wrote: I have Firefox 3.5.6 running on two identical Thinkpad computers. It has been working fine on both for several months, but today, it just quit working on one of them with the message quoted below. Both are wirelessly connected on the same network. No changes were made on either one. I have rechecked that all the settings are identical on both computers. The one on which Firefox just quit working works fine with Konqueror. I have checked and rechecked everything I can think to check. I tried reinstalling Firefox from Synaptic. What could have caused Firefox to just quit working? What can I do to get it working again? Server not found Firefox can't find the server at www.google.com. * Check the address for typing errors such as ww.example.com instead of www.example.com * If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. * If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web. Its not a firefox issue. its a dns issue. How identical are the machines in question? running all the same processes? can you ssh from/to them? I see a lot of such errors, not just with mozilla firefox, but also with safari, IE and even opera. Generally, it turns out to be a dns lookup failure. that's not all that helpful because he clearly stated that Konqueror browses the web fine on the same computer where Firefox does not. Seems pretty clear from the evidence above that Firefox that isn't working is trying to use IPV6 DNS which is failing whereas Konqueror does not. - Open Firefox... - type 'about:config' in the address bar and lie to Firefox and tell it you'll be careful - type 'ipv6' in the 'filter box and you will see a setting for... network.dns.disableIPv6 which is undoubtedly set to 'false. Double click it to change it to true. I would bet that this fixes the problem which would mean that the Firefox that works only has IPV4 running and the one that doesn't has both IPV4 and IPV6 running but you cannot resolve DNS via ipv6. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Site whoring...
No - I should check it out... thanks. I only have minor quibbles with Quanta and I haven't seen enough in IDE's to convince me that is the path for me. Craig On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 14:33 +, Kevin Fries wrote: Have you ever used NetBeans for Rails development? It's awesome. Kevin Sent from my Nokia phone -Original Message- From: Craig White Sent: 02/15/2010 11:07:29 PM Subject: Re: Site whoring... On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 22:48 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: what tools did you use? ruby on rails (sorry, probably should have mentioned) but development entirely with Quanta Plus (KDEwebdevelopment) and a whole lot of different Geo tools which give me lat/lng of every salon as I enter them, GeoIP_City which does a reasonable job of approximating the location of visitors (damn Qwest seems to identify everyone in the valley as being in Peoria) but there is a bunch of different stuff including some nice javascript stuff on the site Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Site whoring...
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 12:42 -0700, Stephen wrote: Date a Masseuse? trust me on this... I fought against that very hard. my 'title' was to be 'Warm Hands, Happy Heart' but it is not my web site and not my money. FWIW, this is not a sex site... there are plenty of those already. This is up and up massage salons. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Need a consultant
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 14:37 -0700, JD Austin wrote: My 2 cents :) It may be a simple web form exploit or something more serious and they have no guarantee that it won't be exploited again and again. I'm not a security expert but used to hang out with hackers back when it was just starting to be illegal and have a good understanding of how they think and operate. I'm perfectly capable of doing such things but thankfully hacking never appealed to me :) Good hackers will patch your system in ways you would never detect... for that matter you'd never even know they were there... they won't show up in a process list, you won't find their files searching for them, they eliminate any trace of themselves in logs, and you probably won't find their back door unless they're amateur 'script kiddies'. Fortunately MOST hacker attacks are script kiddies. You'll usually find traces of their attack in logs and temp folders. The 'clean and recover' method will never give you 100% certainty that you've eliminated the exploit. The machine could have patched binaries all over the place. I have cleaned up such messes before; it can be very time consuming. Even if you find how they got in, how can you ever be completely sure you've stopped them from getting back in without building an new instance to replace it? The safest way to deal with it is to build a hardened server from scratch; before loading data: * change all passwords/etc on the new server * generate new ssh keys if they exist * install mod_ssl, intrusion detection, and fail2ban/denyhosts * re-write applications NOT to use register_globals in PHP and turn it off * turn up logging * migrate the applications/data to it after checking logs for clues of exploit and fix before migrating. The data center can probably give them some information to help them find where their server was exploited. If the mandate is to clean in place and put back online, I myself would not be interested because the predicate is one that I could never agree to and hence, JD is right. You would surely spend more time fixing and trying to locate and removing the exploits than backing up, clean install and putting the data back and still, if it is not a clean install, someone is going to have some sleepless nights. I myself am an avid fan of denyhosts. It is of course, the curse for the dyslexic's among us ;-) Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Site whoring...
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 15:28 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: up and up massage salons. Really. Too funny. ;) unintentional... if it was intentional, then I would have been clever. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: degausser
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 17:47 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: My Mom wants to decommission all her old floppies. Is the tool you would use to do that called a degausser? Fry's said they didn't have a thingy to scramble the magnetic domains on floppies or tapes. a wipe with a very powerful magnet should be all that is needed for the task Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Site whoring...
Just launched a new web site for a friend/customer... about 6 weeks of development time **whew** http://www.allasianmassage.com (a little rushed but seems to be pretty stable and pretty well debugged... no money/time for TDD) Entirely built using Linux tools on Fedora, running on Linux (also Fedora). Linode VPS host (seems to be a very good provider and actually didn't have to ask them a single question) Please kick the tires Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Site whoring...
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 22:48 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: what tools did you use? ruby on rails (sorry, probably should have mentioned) but development entirely with Quanta Plus (KDEwebdevelopment) and a whole lot of different Geo tools which give me lat/lng of every salon as I enter them, GeoIP_City which does a reasonable job of approximating the location of visitors (damn Qwest seems to identify everyone in the valley as being in Peoria) but there is a bunch of different stuff including some nice javascript stuff on the site Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Site whoring...
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 23:12 -0700, David Huerta wrote: On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: Just launched a new web site for a friend/customer... about 6 weeks of development time **whew** http://www.allasianmassage.com (a little rushed but seems to be pretty stable and pretty well debugged... no money/time for TDD) If I may ask, what's the general compensation rate for Rails site dev for a site with this sort of functionality? this is built on 'gap' time (bottom priority) but I did this for a fixed fee and I am still not quite finished because I still have to add 'credit cards', redo the splash page, reports and more and there is so much 'back end' that you don't see... but it was several thousand dollars. Since it is for a friend and I have been less than fully employed lately, it was a bargain ;-) In essence, there are 15 classes (or models in MVC parlance) and there really is only 5 that are visible to the site visitor. There is a fair amount of 'messaging' built in, account management, sales people, commissions, text/markup tag sanitizing, etc. If someone wants a free membership, contact me off-list. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 10:34 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: . craig last wrote: echo - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - \ /var/log/secure echo - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - \ /var/log/messages then try to login, then look at the logs - after the marks you just made. Here's the result: For secure: - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - Feb 12 10:24:01 localhost crond[24469]: pam_unix(crond:session): session opened for user root by (uid=0) Feb 12 10:24:01 localhost crond[24469]: pam_unix(crond:session): session closed for user root Feb 12 10:25:01 localhost crond[24552]: pam_unix(crond:session): session opened for user root by (uid=0) Feb 12 10:25:01 localhost crond[24552]: pam_unix(crond:session): session closed for user root For messages: - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - Feb 12 10:24:01 localhost crond[24470]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 12 10:24:43 localhost sshd[24518]: Failed password for joe from 192.168.0.68 port 34485 ssh2 Feb 12 10:24:46 localhost last message repeated 2 times Feb 12 10:25:01 localhost crond[24553]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Failed password for joe from 192.168.0.68 seems pretty clear to me Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 10:45 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: Failed password for joe from 192.168.0.68 seems pretty clear to me We have known all along that there is a failed password, but I don't know how to fix that. Both the user and root passwords work to log in to this computer, but the same passwords do not work to log in remotely. I have tried changing the passwords, but the system will not allow me to do so. because 'user' has to satisfy 'rules' for passwords but root does not. if you... sudo 'su -' and then type passwd joe you can enter anything you want for a password and not have to satisfy rules. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: 'ssh' and 'scp' ... such a simple fix.
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 11:55 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: . Thanks to everyone who contributed suggestions. As is so often the case, the solution was so very, very simple. In retrospect, the long interchange of messages on this subject issue (which actually began way back in October 2009 with the subject scp times out) and recently continued over two full days with some 30 messages on this subject in total ... now appears to have all been totally unnecessary. The solution was so simple. Just 'su' to root and change the password. or use a 'better' password that actually passes pam_cracklib Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 06:30 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: . Brian Cluff wrote: Does your joe account on 73 have a restricted or non-shell in the /etc/passwd? Eric Cope wrote: sounds like ssh isn't accessible on 73. Is that true? I guess that must be true. How can I fix that? That is the question. 'sshd_config' is identical on 73 and on 68 where ssh and scp both work (on 68). When I try ssy from 68 to 73, this is the result: $ ssh 192.168.0.73 j...@192.168.0.73's password: Permission denied, please try again. j...@192.168.0.73's password: Permission denied, please try again. j...@192.168.0.73's password: Permission denied (publickey,password,keyboard-interactive). I suppose if you really wanted the answer to that question you would have checked the logs like I told you. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 15:02 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: == craig white wrote: check the system logs (secure messages) on '73' and you should find your answer. I did examine those logs (17,000 lines in the last 4 days) but I don't know what to look for. I suppose if you really wanted the answer to that question you would have checked the logs like I told you. I've uploaded those two logs (secure messages) here: http://www.upquick.com/linux/temp/secure73 http://www.upquick.com/linux/temp/messages73 let me see now... you don't want to look at 17,000 lines but I should? Why don't you take this as an opportunity to learn how to solve problems? For example, how to use logs to troubleshoot... run as root echo - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - \ /var/log/secure echo - \n Marking my place in the logs \n - \ /var/log/messages then try to login then look at the logs - after the marks you just made. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 18:47 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: . craig white wrote: let me see now... you don't want to look at 17,000 lines but I should? No, Craig, you definitely should not ... and I am very sorry to have caused you such exasperation toward me. I sincerely appreciate the constructive suggestions that so many helpful friends on the PLUG forum provide and I am just trying to respond to each suggestion with whatever information I can provide as I continue to search for a solution to this problem. I'm not sure why you should think I am exasperated with you. I really don't have any investment in your problem. I often find on this list (and maybe some other lists), someone with a problem really has a larger problem than the particular issue of the moment and that is they don't seem to possess the skills to solve problems. Then of course there are people who have trouble discerning which people are offering useful information and which people are just tossing out ideas without much consideration. So I try to teach people the process itself of solving the problem for themselves. In your particular case, I would be surprised if the logs don't tell you exactly what your particular issue is and so the notion of people hurling suggestions at you just becomes a fairly useless exercise that tells you little except what they are guessing might be the problem. I can't see any logic to the idea of guessing when I believe that the system is working as it should and is actually logging the problem. Let's put it another way... On Windows, there is 'Event Viewer' (yes, IIS saves to log files in % SYSTEM ROOT%System 32\Log file and... Macintosh has 'Console' application for viewing logs Linux has /var/log/messages /var/log/secure /var/log/maillog, etc. The first place to look is the logs... doesn't matter what OS you are using. It's the first step of problem solving on any computer. So if you want to keep chasing down everyone's guess, have at it. If you want to solve your particular issue, start with the logs. If you want to actually learn how to manage your own computers, learn the process of solving problems which begins with learning how to look at the logs. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 19:25 -0700, Craig White wrote: On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 18:47 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: . craig white wrote: let me see now... you don't want to look at 17,000 lines but I should? No, Craig, you definitely should not ... and I am very sorry to have caused you such exasperation toward me. I sincerely appreciate the constructive suggestions that so many helpful friends on the PLUG forum provide and I am just trying to respond to each suggestion with whatever information I can provide as I continue to search for a solution to this problem. I'm not sure why you should think I am exasperated with you. I really don't have any investment in your problem. I often find on this list (and maybe some other lists), someone with a problem really has a larger problem than the particular issue of the moment and that is they don't seem to possess the skills to solve problems. Then of course there are people who have trouble discerning which people are offering useful information and which people are just tossing out ideas without much consideration. So I try to teach people the process itself of solving the problem for themselves. In your particular case, I would be surprised if the logs don't tell you exactly what your particular issue is and so the notion of people hurling suggestions at you just becomes a fairly useless exercise that tells you little except what they are guessing might be the problem. I can't see any logic to the idea of guessing when I believe that the system is working as it should and is actually logging the problem. Let's put it another way... On Windows, there is 'Event Viewer' (yes, IIS saves to log files in % SYSTEM ROOT%System 32\Log file and... Macintosh has 'Console' application for viewing logs Linux has /var/log/messages /var/log/secure /var/log/maillog, etc. The first place to look is the logs... doesn't matter what OS you are using. It's the first step of problem solving on any computer. So if you want to keep chasing down everyone's guess, have at it. If you want to solve your particular issue, start with the logs. If you want to actually learn how to manage your own computers, learn the process of solving problems which begins with learning how to look at the logs. by the way... the answer is indeed in the logs... I'll give you a hint... it's in the 16 line auth.log Failed password for joe from 192.168.0.68 port 43942 ssh2 Which part of that gives you the most problem and we can break it down further? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another?
On Wed, 2010-02-10 at 12:06 -0700, Josef Lowder wrote: . Why does 'ssh' and 'scp' work to one and not another? $ scp testm2p j...@192.168.0.68:/home/joe/ -- This works to computer 68 on my network But why does the following not work to computer 73? Both have sshd started. $ scp testm2p j...@192.168.0.73:/home/joe/ Warning: Permanently added '192.168.0.73' (RSA) to the list of known hosts. j...@192.168.0.73's password: Permission denied, please try again. j...@192.168.0.73's password: Connection closed by 192.168.0.73 lost connection == I also tried this (which works to 68) and it also does not work to 73. $ ssh 192.168.0.73 j...@192.168.0.73's password: Permission denied, please try again. What do I need to fix to get these both to work? check the system logs (secure messages) on '73' and you should find your answer. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SAMBA PDC
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 18:38 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: This is for curiosity, I'm not presently trying to implement Windows networking using a Linux box as the Primary Domain Controller. How would a Linux PDC emulate Active Directory Services? Do you still need a server grade Windows license running to provide ADS? yes, or if you are really adventurous, you could build a very alpha version of Samba 4 which is still too green for packaging yet for any distro. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SAMBA PDC
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 20:13 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: Craig White wrote: On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 18:38 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: This is for curiosity, I'm not presently trying to implement Windows networking using a Linux box as the Primary Domain Controller. How would a Linux PDC emulate Active Directory Services? Do you still need a server grade Windows license running to provide ADS? yes, or if you are really adventurous, you could build a very alpha version of Samba 4 which is still too green for packaging yet for any distro. Craig I'm taking that as yes you can run a SAMBA server as a Windows PDC, but there's really no point because you still need Windows Server 2nnn to host the active directory. I have 6 physical machines I would like to network. * OS X Snow Leopard on late model iMac. * OS X Snow Leopard on newish Macbook. * Dual boot: OS X Snow Leopard/Vista on late model Macbook. * Ubuntu 9.10 desktop (favorite computer) on older Dell Inspiron. * Ubuntu 9.10 netbook (used as an e-reader) on HP. * Ubuntu 9.10 host/Win7 guest/XP guest on Lenovo desktop (possible new favorite computer). What are some options? Active Directory is an enhanced networking schema that is hardly useful for non-Windows systems since the primary benefits are kerberos to aid SSO and Windows Group Policy Objects but the GPO and SSO really only relates to Windows machines anyway. You can use Samba as a server and provide CIFS (Microsoft's Common Internet File Sharing) services without Active Directory. Unless you have a slug of Windows systems to maintain or are running Exchange Server (which requires AD since Win2K3 Server), there's hardly any incentive to run AD. That said, considering that most of your systems are Linux, I would consider using NFS and installing the free SFU on the Windows system (Services For Unix) which is available from Microsoft and it's free. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SAMBA PDC
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 22:24 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: Having read a little Apple documentation it looks like the Macs will just know NFS. Can anyone confirm this? yes... Macintosh Finder interaction with NFS has a little latency. Makes me gag every time some Mac person talks about how it is FreeBSD underneath. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SAMBA PDC
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 22:40 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: A little BingO shows that Microsoft changed the name to Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications Overview with Vista and Server 2003 (?). It is treated as a known package by 2008 (r2) and Win 7. real Linux users don't Bing ;-) whatever they call it... it's SFU (Services For Unix) by the time you actually get it installed on Windows. of course you can use the shell package (I forgot the name) that gives you an x server and a bash shell and pile of cli utilities on Windows instead. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: SAMBA PDC
On Tue, 2010-02-09 at 05:13 +, Kevin Fries wrote: Another package I have used in mixed LinuxWindows environment is GOsa2. It uses an LDAP backend, and has a pretty nice front end. not even close to the same type of thing as Active Directory or a Windows Domain Controller. Gosa (or however you write it), is a highly opinionated GUI account management tool for LDAP. Not a bad tool but actually requires things like an LDAP server and other authentication and authorization mechanisms whereas AD is a start to finish authentication and authorization implementation. I remember slamming my head against the wall installing PHP 5.3 just to play with it. I thought it was cool but if I was going to have some packages mandatory DSA jammed down my throat, I would rather go with FreeIPA and get some real features. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: How to stop the deluge of entries in /var/log files?
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 11:56 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: Joe last wrote: Thanks Craig. Re the permissions item, I neglected to say that the reported files and directories are already set with the correct permissions, but those claims of wrong permissions keep on coming anyway. Then Craig wrote: that defies my understanding of things so I struggle to believe it. what is output of say... ls -l /var/log/lpr In this case, the system is generating that particular log with all -rw--- permissions, so why cron is generating an error report to /var/log/lpr saying permissions should be 640 is strange. umm... And Craig also wrote: You might want to see what is actually in those files... (/etc/cron.hourly/*, etc.) and potentially edit or remove them as useful. I suspect the ones that are making you crazy are in the cron.hourly Clearly the 'promisc_check.sh' is in the hourly and that would seem to be a safety check from your distro and it is reporting to syslog which actually makes a lot of sense and I would probably just leave it alone (i.e. keep running the 'promiscuity check' every hour Thanks. That helped me discover what was going on. It just didn't make sense to me that something in /etc/cron.hourly would be generating an action every minute. And I still don't understand why something in /etc/cron.hourly is running every minute rather than once every hour? Do most distros have something like this running every minute and adding tens of thousands of entries to both syslog and messages plus in several other places? Isn't that a sledgehammer swatting a gnat? Why is it necessary to flood the logs with an entry for every minute that an action like this runs? I don't recall seeing this in Fedora, RHEL or CentOS but perhaps it is a package that you installed that I never install. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: How to stop the deluge of entries in /var/log files?
On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 11:56 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: Joe last wrote: Thanks Craig. Re the permissions item, I neglected to say that the reported files and directories are already set with the correct permissions, but those claims of wrong permissions keep on coming anyway. Then Craig wrote: that defies my understanding of things so I struggle to believe it. what is output of say... ls -l /var/log/lpr In this case, the system is generating that particular log with all -rw--- permissions, so why cron is generating an error report to /var/log/lpr saying permissions should be 640 is strange. oops - sent to quickly -rw--- = 0600 _rw_r_ = 0640 Just saying... Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: comments in /eetc/passwd and group
On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 10:03 -0700, Shawn Badger wrote: Somebody did mention security to me as well, but when I asked them to elaborate on it they couldn't. I agree you can maintain a separate file for the comments, but I am looking for something that would say if you have blank line lines in in the /etc/passwd or /etc/group file this can happen. And if you have #comments in them this can happen, but so far I have not been able to find anything like that. In order to defend my stance, I need to be able to say this will happen if you do that. It seems to me that beyond... # Do NOT hand edit these files under penalties that might include # death, getting your hands chopped off or just termination. seems to be unnecessary as hand editing passwd/group/shadow files is fraught with potentially devastating possibilities and so many tools are available to handle the job. Not to mention that a system like LDAP is entirely capable of handling comments. But in fairness, I think there is a lot of context that you are not sharing with us that would probably be meaningful to the discussion. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: How to stop the deluge of entries in /var/log files?
On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 18:15 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 17:31 -0700, j...@actionline.com wrote: While fixing a 'syslog' problem on one of my systems, I just discovered that on one of my other systems, there has been a deluge of identical (redundant) entries (for two different topics), each going into several different files in /var/log and I can't figure out how or find where to put a stop to it. Here are just a half-dozen example lines of each topic showing that the exact same entry for one going in every single minute 24/7 ... that is 60*24=1440 entries every single day for one and a different schedule for the other. Example #1: Feb 4 04:11:01 localhost crond[3125]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 4 04:12:01 localhost crond[3134]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 4 04:13:01 localhost crond[3143]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 4 04:14:01 localhost crond[3152]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 4 04:15:01 localhost crond[3161]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Feb 4 04:16:01 localhost crond[3170]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) Example #2: Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /var/log/lpr/info.4.gz: should be 640 Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /var/log/daemons/info.3.gz: should be 640 Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /var/log/news/news.notice.3.gz: should be 640 Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /etc/rc.d/init.d/avahi-daemon: should be 744 Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /var/log/cron/warnings.5.gz: should be 640 Feb 4 04:02:11 localhost msec: Wrong permissions of /var/log/cups/error_log: should be 640 How can I stop this? fix the problems... (fix the permissions... chmod 640 /var/log/lpr/* chmod 640 /var/log/daemons/* chmod 640 /var/log/news/* chmod 744 /etc/rc.d/init.d/avahi-daemon chmod 640 /var/log/cups/* ) as for Feb 4 04:16:01 localhost crond[3170]: (root) CMD ( /usr/share/msec/promisc_check.sh) I'd probably check with your particular distribution for the recommended fix and/or bug report it. Craig Thanks Craig. Re the permissions item, I neglected to say that the reported files and directories are already set with the correct permissions, but those claims of wrong permissions keep on coming anyway. that defies my understanding of things so I struggle to believe it. what is output of say... ls -l /var/log/lpr ? Re the other item, I have searched and searched, but I can't find where the crond action is being generated. The problem has not always been happening, I just discovered that it started at the end of December 09. And, this problem does not occur on two other systems that have the exact same distro / same version installed at the same time. I've searched for and grep'd through every file I could find that has 'cron' or 'crond' and I can't find any reference to 'promisc_check.sh' and neither 'crontab' (nor any other file I can find has any setting for every minute. I find only hourly, daily, weekly, monthly: 01 * * * * root run-parts /etc/cron.hourly 02 4 * * * root run-parts /etc/cron.daily 22 4 * * 0 root run-parts /etc/cron.weekly 42 4 1 * * root run-parts /etc/cron.monthly You might want to see what is actually in those files... (/etc/cron.hourly/*, etc.) and potentially edit or remove them as useful. I suspect the ones that are making you crazy are in the cron.hourly Clearly the 'promisc_check.sh' is in the hourly and that would seem to be a safety check from your distro and it is reporting to syslog which actually makes a lot of sense and I would probably just leave it alone (i.e. keep running the 'promiscuity check' every hour but that's just me) The permissions check are probably part of logrotate and it's possible that some of the logrotate functions aren't setting the permissions right when it creates/rotates logs (note the 4:02 time) so you might want to check /etc/logrotate.d/* stuff but again, I think this is the kind of thing that your particular distribution should be aware of and make fixes for unless this is because you already 'fixed'. In summary, I would want to fix the permissions issues being reported but I'd probably leave the safety checks alone. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 22:10 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: Craig, Again you assume facts not stated, exchange wasn't a factor. LDAP was chosen because the documentation supported it AND I had used it elsewhere with success, you decided it wasn't necessary and you don't know my network or the facts, that is arrogant on your part. DCPromo wasn't used as it runs on Windows boxes, not the Ubuntu server I was using, again you assumed I'm an idiot and your ignorance is showing. You can't downgrade an SBS server to a legacy mode because of Exchange, conversions are one way and not reversible. Chapter 4 of the Samba manual discusses and clearly explains the use of LDAP and recommends it's use, so where you get your facts from is not clear to me, perhaps the manual is wrong. Since the LDAP configuration occurs in several other chapters I have to wonder why it would be documented if not supported, and since you have no first hand knowledge of my network, you have to be pretty arrogant to tell me when or where I need it. You accused me of not knowing my craft and you don't know the facts, but as you pointed out and I openly admitted I didn't know what I was doing. I read the documentation, and I made my best guess as to it's implementation and it didn't work and there were serious consequences. That YOU can't dispute, I have the proof in the failure, so you will have to accept them as I didn't imagine it. The damage occurred when I was attempting to configure and synchronize the Linux machine to my existing domain using webmin and the information I obtained from the Samba website, again these are the facts and you disputing them is calling me a liar. You keep saying I was building a domain controller, I never said that, I said I was attempting to configure LDAP and Kerberos to work with my existing domain controller, again you have no idea what I was doing, but your sure I am making it up. I was attempting to use the Single Sign On and use LDAP for the AD directory storage and synchronization, which is discussed in the manual. I am familiar with it and I have used it elsewhere. If I knew what I was doing wrong, then I obviously wouldn't have done it a second time to verify my results, which were the same, again facts you can't dispute, unless you want to keep calling me a liar. The existing Microsoft Domain controller stopped working and required a complete restore to function again, not to mention every workstation having to be reset. Whatever Winbind, LDAP and the Kerberos configurations I did (covered in the manual), the minute I synced that Linux server to my domain controller is stopped working, I was there and I have the Microsoft Trouble ticket for them to do a post mortem and tell me what had happened, so again you are being arrogant that you know everything and you know what I did wrong. The fact that I screwed it up is still the fact, you just keep calling me a liar when I explained what I did. I am new to Linux so I started with the UBUNTU server manual reading up on Samba, and then I went to Samba.org to investigate something that was made to sound relatively simple, create a file server to share files on a windows network and use the single sign on capability in Samba. Did I understand everything I read, I thought so, and the documentation seemed reasonable and I followed it, and it contributed to a big problem. Why, probably because I used my Microsoft experience to understanding the Samba manual. Ok, so I screwed it up, you still don't have the right to call me a liar and tell me I don't know my job because I tried something new and attempted to expand my knowledge. As for your tone, I don't appreciate you attacking me and accusing me of lying, when I clearly stated I was in error, it was my fault and that I obviously misunderstood the manual. You accused me of fabricating the facts, they are still true, I attempted to follow the manual relying on my experience and I was wrong, but the manual gave me information and lead me to those conclusions. You continue to attack my experience and you don't know me, you didn't have all the facts, but you spout off that you know everything and I'm a liar, that is just rude and arrogant. I still stand that my explanation is the record of the facts, your assumptions are not based on you knowing what I did, where I went wrong and what my abilities are. They are your opinions being defended by your experience and nothing more. You can have the last word and post your response, but I am done and I have nothing more to say. ok then... There is absolutely no reason to use LDAP on a Linux (or UNIX) system that merely wants to to join AD as a domain member. There is no documentation anywhere on Samba's web site that says otherwise. None. You should configure kerberos on this Linux (or UNIX) system that wants to join as a domain member. Running LDAP
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 17:46 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Kurt Granroth wrote: On 1/30/10 10:10 AM, Matt Graham wrote: After a long battle with technology, Craig White wrote: [snip] - Netatalk (Macintosh AFP server) Really? That package recently dropped off the Gentoo ebuilds list because there wasn't that much demand for it and it's not really being maintained. There just aren't as many MacOS 9 boxes out there as there used to be, after all. Not just MacOS 9... the modern OS X File Sharing uses AFP. It's still the default way to share OS X drives on Linux. Funny that would come up. We just configured an ubuntu server with netatalk at the IF today. It works with Tiger and Leopard, but 10.5.6+ functionality is questionable. check the dns on the snow leopard system or better yet, connect via IP address instead of DNS resolution. I am seeing some strange behavior from snow leopard. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 17:49 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: Craig, I don't doubt that people do it. I made several honest attempts to research, understand and implement a Samba file server in and existing Small Business Server 2003 network using LDAP and Kerberos. I was not able to make it work, so I changed my plan and I asked if someone was willing to mentor me through another try. Since I didn't need multiple opinions, I just need to discover what I did wrong/what works, I wanted to avoid a large forum, and I'm sorry if that seems to keep upsetting people. Here's What happened: The How tos were really vague for adding Samba to anything but the simplest windows network (NT4), Then most examples assumed I was building a standalone server with the same functionality, not adding one. Based on my research it looked like the process was straight forward and so I built a Ubuntu server (LAMPS) and I set out to join it to my domain. vague? seriously? Samba has the best free documentation of any open source project. The Official Samba HowTo Samba By Example both are available at www.samba.org (linked on the main page). The HowTo is exhaustive documentation developed over many years and the 'By Example' gives you a complete walk through on many various scenarios of usage. Using any other documentation is just stupid. I knew I needed LDAP and Kerberos so I tried to set those up with Webmin, they attempted to alter my existing domain controller and things went horribly wrong. I recovered my DC from backup and tried it a second time using the CLI, but I was not able to find where settings were stored and again, I tried to use the example files from Samba.org as a model, not knowing what is needed or not, may have contributed to a second failure. Again I recovered my Server form backup and changed tactics. you don't need LDAP to join a Linux server to AD. You have bad information. Neither LDAP nor kerberos have any ability to 'alter' an AD controller. Bad information and bad conclusion. I then tried to join a linux workstation to the domain with like wise and it worked, sort of. Small Business Server isn't just Windows Server 2003 with a new name. It adds Exchange and SQL has other scripted functionality embedded into AD which is why you have to use it's wizards for everything. After joining I started to have problems as AD was not properly formatted when the workstation was joined. SBS uses the AD tables for more than just domain membership, we have exchange, etc that rely on it. So Yes it probably can be done, but it is not simple, nor is it intuitive, it is specific to the type of environment. My AD environment isn't broken, it required specific settings that couldn't be anticipated from the how to and guides I found on Samba.org. Again - Linux servers and workstations are joined to AD domains all over the world without 'breaking' anything and I am quite aware of what SBS is and Windows networking. I asked in IRC #Samba, #ubuntu-server, #Ubuntu-us-az, and #plugaz several times for help to understand where I went wrong and nobody answered, or if they did, I was told Oh that is really tricky and I never did it. Samba's documentation admits issues with non NT4 AD implementation and promises to fix it in V4, but I wanted to talk to someone who had done it and nobody answered. Samba 3.x cannot participate as a domain controller on an AD domain. Documentation is quite clear. But it is relatively simple and benign for it to join an AD domain as a member server/workstation. It works, it's relatively simple and it is not hazardous to an AD domain whatsoever. I think your statement 'Samba's documentation admits issues with non NT4 AD implementation and promises to fix it in V4' is completely flawed. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 18:42 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 17:46 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Kurt Granroth wrote: On 1/30/10 10:10 AM, Matt Graham wrote: After a long battle with technology, Craig White wrote: [snip] - Netatalk (Macintosh AFP server) Really? That package recently dropped off the Gentoo ebuilds list because there wasn't that much demand for it and it's not really being maintained. There just aren't as many MacOS 9 boxes out there as there used to be, after all. Not just MacOS 9... the modern OS X File Sharing uses AFP. It's still the default way to share OS X drives on Linux. Funny that would come up. We just configured an ubuntu server with netatalk at the IF today. It works with Tiger and Leopard, but 10.5.6+ functionality is questionable. check the dns on the snow leopard system or better yet, connect via IP address instead of DNS resolution. I am seeing some strange behavior from snow leopard. Craig I wish we could, but I only have a Tiger system to test with. I don't think Don (whose server we worked on) has Snow Leopard yet either, just Leopard. :( I was planning to upgrade the Tiger host to Snow Leopard in the near future. Do you think I should hold off on that? The host is a MacMini. I have several clients running many Mac's (Leopard) and connecting to Netatalk and using it daily... no problemo Snow Leopard seems to query multiple DNS servers via a round robin style rather than starting with the first in the list which caused me a headache. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Project Update
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 18:30 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Steven A. DuChene wrote: If it was me I would look for a distribution that had newer bits (Samba etc) than CentOS5.4 Perhaps OpenSuSE-11.2 or similar. Newer etc? ;) I am a little disappointed that CentOS5 doesn't have a more recent Samba, but newer Samba rpms for EL5 are available from sernet.de. I agree with Steve that CentOS will likely have better stability. I'm not sure that changing distros in order to get more current packages is a good strategy. When desirable pieces are missing from a given distro, they can often be found already packaged in alternate places (yum repositories, or yum repos if you're lucky). I wouldn't expect any distro to necessarily have all of the software that might be desirable for a given host configuration. personally - I think the suggestions of 'fixing' things that aren't broken to be a really poor idea. Samba 3.4.x is important for Windows 7 clients but if you don't have Windows 7 clients, why go down that road? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 19:49 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: Craig, We obviously don't agree. I followed those examples and they didn't work. They were not easy to follow nor did they make the process easy to understand, perhaps you are using your experience to draw from, which I don't have. You also say I didn't need LDAP or Kerberos, that's pretty arrogant when you didn't know why I selected them in the first place, yes it may be possible to make it work without them, but my decision was to use these components and that's when everything went wrong. You are free to sing the praises of Samba, maybe someday I will to. But for know I know I can't do it from the documentation and I needed help. My statements stand as facts from my experience, and you were not there, nor have you considered my explanation beyond defending your opinion, which is not right or wrong, it's your opinion. You have a serious language comprehension problem. I clearly said you didn't need LDAP to join Samba systems to AD. I did not say you didn't need kerberos to join Samba systems to AD because you do. I am hoping that you take more time to comprehend what I am saying because I am being very precise. The only praise I sang for Samba was their documentation because it is incredibly complete. Most people do not want to comprehend that much information and so they go elsewhere for less information. The problem is that there are so many different scenarios for using Samba, both as a server and as a client. It can be a domain controller or a domain member, it can be a client or server using Windows 98 File sharing methods or current CIFS methods. It supports ancient and current Windows authentication methods (again both as client or server). It can configure into local system authentication/authorization using many different mechanisms including /etc/passwd, LDAP and AD. It provides support for Windows printing both as server and as client. In short, there is so much that Samba does that no simple documentation could possibly exist. But more to the issue... I have used Samba for over 10 years, have used it in all possible ways and NEVER have I ever seen or even heard of a reliable report that 'joining' a system to AD has damaged the AD setup. And yes, we clearly disagree but I actually employ Samba at various levels in various businesses and have no issues with using it and somehow have managed to do this without damaging AD domain controllers. I needed LDAP and Kerberos to handle the users and credentials, you may have decided not to integrate user accounts, but for me it was essential and I have no idea how you would do that without LDAP. I use Kerberos for my windows network, so it stands to reason I would use it on this Samba server residing in my network, heck it's even in the manual. I stated in my explanation where it went wrong, deciding that I'm wrong by doing it differently is not the same thing. I have a Linux based firewall that uses LDAP to authenticate users for access, works like a charm, so I've had some experience. My users should not have to re-authenticate every time they access a file, and caching credentials separately means I have to change them every time somebody changes a password, so I think you over simplified the problem. What I did wrong was not knowing what I was doing with Samba and trying to do this on a production network, because I thought I understood what I was doing. You still haven't provided any reason to use LDAP. Samba and any reasonable Linux distribution can surely use the account information provided by AD. So far, the only problem I think I over simplified is thinking that you actually understand Windows networking because it seems pretty clear that you are hoping for Linux walk-throughs and and Webmin to conceal the problem that you don't understand Linux. Just so we're clear... Windows SBS server is essentially a crippled Windows Server that I presume they sell so small businesses everywhere don't use Linux servers. [Samba 3.x cannot participate as a domain controller on an AD domain.] [Documentation is quite clear. But it is relatively simple and benign for] [it to join an AD domain as a member server/workstation. It works, it's] [relatively simple and it is not hazardous to an AD domain whatsoever.] Chapter 4 of the Samba documentation states multiple times the need to LDAP to function completely, it does say it can work without - but at a loss of functionality, i.e. Single Sign On (SSO). It also talks about it's ability to work with NT4, but shows some caveats in 200x AD without additional components, and several warnings about potential problems with configuration, So I can point to where my information came from, and why I chose to use the elements. I remember now that the use of Winbind was also part of the process with LDAP so that should also be an element into my failure. I'm quite sure that you are
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:53 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 18:42 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 17:46 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Kurt Granroth wrote: On 1/30/10 10:10 AM, Matt Graham wrote: After a long battle with technology, Craig White wrote: [snip] - Netatalk (Macintosh AFP server) Really? That package recently dropped off the Gentoo ebuilds list because there wasn't that much demand for it and it's not really being maintained. There just aren't as many MacOS 9 boxes out there as there used to be, after all. Not just MacOS 9... the modern OS X File Sharing uses AFP. It's still the default way to share OS X drives on Linux. Funny that would come up. We just configured an ubuntu server with netatalk at the IF today. It works with Tiger and Leopard, but 10.5.6+ functionality is questionable. check the dns on the snow leopard system or better yet, connect via IP address instead of DNS resolution. I am seeing some strange behavior from snow leopard. Craig I wish we could, but I only have a Tiger system to test with. I don't think Don (whose server we worked on) has Snow Leopard yet either, just Leopard. :( I was planning to upgrade the Tiger host to Snow Leopard in the near future. Do you think I should hold off on that? The host is a MacMini. I have several clients running many Mac's (Leopard) and connecting to Netatalk and using it daily... no problemo Do you have samba sharing any of the same data along with netatalk? yes - everywhere anticipating your next questions... (2.05) and... (sample AppleVolumes.default setting) /home/shares/files Shared Files perm:775 allow:@Domain Users \ rwlist:@Domain Users cnidscheme:dbd options:usedots # ls -ald /home/shares/files/.AppleDB drwxrwsr-x 2 ja Domain Users 4096 Dec 7 18:15 /home/shares/files/.AppleDB # ls -al /home/shares/files/.AppleDB total 34824 drwxrwxr-x 2 jaDomain Users 4096 Dec 7 18:15 . drwxrwxrwx 8 administrator Domain Users 4096 Dec 28 11:09 .. -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users 35590144 Dec 23 10:33 cnid2.db -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users0 Dec 7 18:15 db_errlog -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users0 Dec 7 18:15 lock (I find setting the 'group' sticky bit on the shared folder and group ownership and write bits on .AppleDB and all enclosed files essential) Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:55 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: Craig, You are the master, and I'm just an idiot with 20 years of Microsoft experience. so you win, I'm totally wrong. I got nothing more to add, and no desire for this to continue to escalate. Thanks for your time, and best wishes for the future. I suspect that what you actually did was to run dcpromo on your Windows SBS server and set it to 'legacy domain controller' in order to have your Samba server join the domain as a 'controller'. That of course, immediately broke Exchange. Of course, this is just a guess. The only reason you would need LDAP on Linux was if it was to be a domain controller which the documentation clearly states that it cannot be a domain controller on an AD domain. I am not escalating anything nor am I all that invested in your setup because I am only left to guess what you did. I am pretty confident that you were groping and eager to try anything without understanding the reasons and the ramifications. I have seen many people who think that they understand Windows networking but can't function beyond the wizards and GUI provided by Microsoft, can not query LDAP from CLI, don't actually understand how LDAP actually works, how to access it, how to extend it, etc. I can appreciate the extreme difficulty of trying to configure LDAP when you don't actually understand it because I learned it simultaneously with Samba 3 right when Samba 3 was released and it made me pull my hair out trying to learn them simultaneously and all the while I was thinking that Samba 3 was pretty much like Samba 2 (it wasn't - it's just that the commands looked the same). My advice... if you don't fully understand Linux, learn that first. At the point you are comfortable with Linux, learn Samba. At the point that you are fully comfortable with Samba, learn LDAP (if you actually need it or want to use Samba as a domain controller). Recognize that until Samba 4 is actually usable (and it will still be quite some time to reach that stage), you cannot use Samba as a domain controller in any domain that uses 'Exchange Server' 2003 or newer simply because Exchange Server 2003/2007 absolutely require current AD structure. But you can have a separate domain and set up trusts between your Samba domain and your AD. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 21:23 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 20:53 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sun, 2010-01-31 at 18:42 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 17:46 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote: Kurt Granroth wrote: On 1/30/10 10:10 AM, Matt Graham wrote: After a long battle with technology, Craig White wrote: [snip] - Netatalk (Macintosh AFP server) Really? That package recently dropped off the Gentoo ebuilds list because there wasn't that much demand for it and it's not really being maintained. There just aren't as many MacOS 9 boxes out there as there used to be, after all. Not just MacOS 9... the modern OS X File Sharing uses AFP. It's still the default way to share OS X drives on Linux. Funny that would come up. We just configured an ubuntu server with netatalk at the IF today. It works with Tiger and Leopard, but 10.5.6+ functionality is questionable. check the dns on the snow leopard system or better yet, connect via IP address instead of DNS resolution. I am seeing some strange behavior from snow leopard. Craig I wish we could, but I only have a Tiger system to test with. I don't think Don (whose server we worked on) has Snow Leopard yet either, just Leopard. :( I was planning to upgrade the Tiger host to Snow Leopard in the near future. Do you think I should hold off on that? The host is a MacMini. I have several clients running many Mac's (Leopard) and connecting to Netatalk and using it daily... no problemo Do you have samba sharing any of the same data along with netatalk? yes - everywhere anticipating your next questions... (2.05) and... (sample AppleVolumes.default setting) /home/shares/files Shared Files perm:775 allow:@Domain Users \ rwlist:@Domain Users cnidscheme:dbd options:usedots # ls -ald /home/shares/files/.AppleDB drwxrwsr-x 2 ja Domain Users 4096 Dec 7 18:15 /home/shares/files/.AppleDB # ls -al /home/shares/files/.AppleDB total 34824 drwxrwxr-x 2 jaDomain Users 4096 Dec 7 18:15 . drwxrwxrwx 8 administrator Domain Users 4096 Dec 28 11:09 .. -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users 35590144 Dec 23 10:33 cnid2.db -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users0 Dec 7 18:15 db_errlog -rw-rwxr-x 1 jaDomain Users0 Dec 7 18:15 lock (I find setting the 'group' sticky bit on the shared folder and group ownership and write bits on .AppleDB and all enclosed files essential) Craig Thanks Craig. I hope to get to this by the end of the week. I think you've covered my unasked questions. :) I'll let you know how I make out. one more thing - if you are using 2.05 and LDAP... the supplied netatalk 'pam.d' module didn't work for LDAP (probably works for /etc/passwd users but I always use LDAP now) this, however does work with LDAP # cat /etc/pam.d/netatalk #%PAM-1.0 auth required pam_nologin.so auth include system-auth accountinclude system-auth sessioninclude system-auth password include system-auth Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 12:14 -0600, s...@theparsonsfamily.com wrote: Well, I am trying to build as close an equivalent to my existing all Microsoft network as possible using Linux based solutions in order to determine if I can migrate away from Microsoft. At the same time attempt to learn more about Linux. I am using Small Business Server 2003 Standard and 3 Server 2003 machines to host my corporate network, I have about 30 workstations and these assets are distributed across to offices in Albuquerque and Phoenix. We use Exchange for mail, I have 3 domain controllers for AD. We use office 2007 for typical files and I use networked printers. I am not using much from SQL except for sharepoint but there are other options for that. As far as giving you specifics, how do you define an unknown? I can't explain what Linux can do vs Windows, as it's not apples-apples and oranges-oranges. Listing everything out and trying to keep things focused in a forum like this is going to be a monumental effort on top of the actual project. I can't debate 4 different opinions about which mail transport agent/client is best, I'm more interested in choosing one and trying to see if I can make it work, at this point. That is why I set out to build a sandbox with the aide of someone with more experience than I, to attempt to build as much equivalent functionality as possible to see where it gets me/us. I have no plan to use it in a production environment and if I decide to actually convert, I would plan a project for that separately, with more specifics, and hopefully my experience will have improved as well. I have unsuccessfully attempted to reproduce various pieces (Samba, Cups, DNS, etc) and join them to the existing domain and had 0% success in making it work with my existing network. So keeping them separate is my only option at this point. I have allocated four machines for use and a portion of my network, I can even allocate static IPs. I have planned for 2 servers and 1-2 workstation machines, I can bring them to installfest, but I'd need a lot of support equipment to hook them up into something usable. I still have concerns about this forum as I am new and getting 20 different conflicting suggestions will not be a constructive learning environment, not to mention monopolizing this forum. If someone volunteers to 'mentor' you privately so be it. This list is precisely for the type of thing you are contemplating. I will relate what I typically set up for a client... - CentOS (distribution of choice though I would expect that you could pretty much pull this off with any distribution). - Samba (Windows server / NT type domain controller) - OpenLDAP (authentication address books though I am contemplating eventually switching to FreeIPA) - Netatalk (Macintosh AFP server) - Postfix (SMTP) - Cyrus-IMAPd (POP3/IMAP server) Most robust server in it's class - Horde (with IMP/Kronolith/Turba/Ingo/Nag/Mnemo/Wicked) Shared e-mail, contacts, calendars, tasks, memos, wiki - MailScanner, SpamAssassin, Clamd (mail / virus scanning) - SQLGrey (greylisting) This gets me close but not all the way to what I can get from SBS. You could probably use Zimbra instead (Zimbra uses Postfix Cyrus-IMAPd but uses amavisd instead of MailScanner and is a resource pig) Obviously apache/mysql and other necessary services would have to be present. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Looking for a mentor/adviser
On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 18:03 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: I am VERY interested in investigating alternative solutions to my Microsoft network that are Linux based and can provide the same/similar services. I have already made several disastrous attempts using Ubuntu server/workstation, Debian, and Mandrake to use Samba, resulting in some very serious damage to several domain controllers trying to integrate them into an existing AD environment. If there is someone who would be interested in mentoring me through the basics, I would be grateful. I would be satisfied with anyone whose skills exceed my own, even if they too are still learning as it could be a group project. I have resources to make the “Sandbox” remotely accessible to accommodate schedules etc, I would of course need some help getting that functionality working successfully and of course securely. I have several dedicated servers and workstations reserved for a “Sandbox” and I’d like to attempt to build an equivalent network to investigate the feasibility of migrating away from Microsoft. I’ve a rudimentary working knowledge of Linux but not ready for the CLI plunge yet, in other words…. I can break Linux better than a newbie. It is becoming obvious to me that I am not mastering the OS from books and fumbling, and there’s as much bad advice/information on Google as good and I can’t discern the difference at this point. If there is anyone interested, let me know. I would appreciate not getting the usual Microsoft bashing as I can’t throw away something that works until I can replace it. Wouldn't it be more useful and instructive to keep your questions on list? You would benefit from a greater availability of opinions too. Also, it seems a bit unfair to want private advising and deprive the list of the knowledge that is gathered by solving problems which I would gather would be rather typical for many offices/businesses. There is no need to make changes to an AD environment to add Linux servers and/or workstations. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Question About Module Loading
On Thu, 2009-12-24 at 22:30 -0700, Mark Phillips wrote: I just installed Debian stable (2.6-amd64 kernel) on a machine. I had to remove the kernel module for the Ethernet card and add a different one. The new module compiled etc and works. However, I had a problem preventing the old module from loading. There was no modprobe.conf file, but instead a directory modprobe.d with a lot of files in it. However, I could not find the expected alias line with the bad module's name. I finally googled a solution, and I am curious if this is the new way to disabling a kernel module: I created a file in /etc/modprobe.d/ called 00local. That file has one line: install r8169 /bin/true. This prevented the module r8169 from being loaded. I grepped all of /etc/ looking for r8169 and could not find where it was being loaded. I am so confused G'night and Happy Holidays to everyone! /lib/modules/_ YOUR_KERNEL _/kernel/drivers/net/r8169.ko Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SOT: virtualization
On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 03:51 -0700, Technomage wrote: Craig White wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 18:46 -0700, Technomage wrote: Fedora: forces you to run SELINUX regardless of whether you need it or not this is simply wrong. On Fedora 12 (the latest version released a few weeks ago)... I was running fedora 11 and even with the settings as listed below, it was still attempting to run. also, its settings manager was rather a bit less intuitive than I would have liked (not very blind friendly). # head -n 5 /etc/selinux/config # This file controls the state of SELinux on the system. # SELINUX= can take one of these three values: # enforcing - SELinux security policy is enforced. # permissive - SELinux prints warnings instead of enforcing. # disabled - SELinux is fully disabled. disabled actually means disabled...you can't get any more disabled than disabled and if it is actually disabled, it doesn't run, period, end of story. if however you had the slightest bit of understanding of SELinux, you would have known that on any system, you can append 'setenforce 0' to the kernel boot parameters to disable SELinux at startup. as a desktop user, I am not required to have an understanding of an enterprise class security tool. I personally think that its rather unnecessary to have running (let alone installed). For the application that I had tasked the machine, it was downright intrusive in allowing my to operate the machine. That sort of invites a discussion of grey areas. Red Hat clearly considers SELinux to be Enterprise Class Security which is why they include it. Fedora provides a test bed for new software, new SELinux policies, new administration tools and many of them have been included in the 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 updates. You are not alone in wanting to disable it to allow stuff that you wrote yourself or built from tarballs because there isn't existing policy for that so you have to create it yourself. Security is built on layers and SELinux is just another layer and it really isn't that difficult to manage but you do have to invest time and energy to learn how to use it...which is why some people just shut it off. Back to the original assertion though... disabled means disabled. the effort of building a kernal would have not been worth the expended time. I am quite sure that 'forcing' a user to run SELinux on Fedora has never even been discussed by serious people. You can permanently disable it on 'first boot' which is where you configure things like networking, users, startup services, firewall and of course, security. unfortunately, the install routine for FC-11 didn't give me that option (and the install gui is not the most blind/VI friendly) maybe you should bugzilla your experiences to identify where the install/first run failed to meet your needs so that it can do better for the next user or your next experience. The theory being it isn't a bug if it's not in bugzilla. As for your assertion that Fedora has 'dependency' issues... I simply do not ever have dependency issues with Fedora but if your analysis of dependencies is similar to your analysis of them 'forcing' users to run SELinux, then I would accept that you have had your share of problems. Craig heheh. yeahmy analysis isn't anywhere near a professional one. its taken from the POV of an end user that simply wants a system that just works without a lot of hassle and deep level configuration. I can do a lot of this work, but some of the people I help out cannot (for various reasons) and it starts soaking a non-trivial amount of my time to deal with these issues. At least with debian 5, I can install a base level system, then install X and lastly the DM of my choice (kde, xfce, openstep, whatever) and not have to gut the system to do it. we are all end users. Fedora gives you a choice of dm's like any other distro without 'gutting' the system. There are a lot of people who believe it just works - I guess you are not one of them. Not a big deal but your conclusions that you are 'forced' to run SELinux or have to 'gut' a Fedora system in order to choose another Desktop Manager are wrong and anyone that thinks you know what you are talking about will get the wrong impression. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: network woes
On Wed, 2009-12-23 at 14:06 -0700, Dazed_75 wrote: Honestly, I've never seen a cable/dsl modem that acts as a DHCP server or NAT translator. They normally are only connected to one computer or router and just pass the IP/DNS info to the computer or router. All routers I have ever dealt with DO act as DHCP servers and usually provide NAT. every dsl modem that I've seen coming from Qwest the past 5 years is a combination modem/router and that includes the awful 2-wire things they try to pawn off on people (which means they do provide DHCP NAT). They also include wireless. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: SOT: virtualization
On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 18:46 -0700, Technomage wrote: Fedora: forces you to run SELINUX regardless of whether you need it or not this is simply wrong. On Fedora 12 (the latest version released a few weeks ago)... # head -n 5 /etc/selinux/config # This file controls the state of SELinux on the system. # SELINUX= can take one of these three values: # enforcing - SELinux security policy is enforced. # permissive - SELinux prints warnings instead of enforcing. # disabled - SELinux is fully disabled. if however you had the slightest bit of understanding of SELinux, you would have known that on any system, you can append 'setenforce 0' to the kernel boot parameters to disable SELinux at startup. Even still, you could build your own kernel and not enable SELinux. I am quite sure that 'forcing' a user to run SELinux on Fedora has never even been discussed by serious people. You can permanently disable it on 'first boot' which is where you configure things like networking, users, startup services, firewall and of course, security. As for your assertion that Fedora has 'dependency' issues... I simply do not ever have dependency issues with Fedora but if your analysis of dependencies is similar to your analysis of them 'forcing' users to run SELinux, then I would accept that you have had your share of problems. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Fwd: UG News: 45% off Ebook Purchases from O'Reilly
I was going to mention but did not... In the Android marketplace, there was a deluge of O'Reilly books released that felt like a spam wave. Curiously all of the books seemed to be Microsoft Press titles so I gathered that Microsoft Press paid O'Reilly to convert and release them but I rather seriously doubt that the android marketplace is going to big outlet for Microsoft Press titles (nor the iTunes store). I am gathering that this is a new project by O'Reilly and they have come up with technology to convert and release on a myriad of platforms. I think the idea is good though and hope to see all sorts of Linux publications from O'Reilly available in the Android Marketplace but didn't see them. Craig On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 18:25 -0700, Alan Dayley wrote: looks like a cool deal! Alan -- Forwarded message -- From: Marsee Henon mar...@oreilly.com Date: Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM Subject: UG News: 45% off Ebook Purchases from O'Reilly To: ala...@consultpros.com If you would like to view this information in your browser, click here. Forward this announcement Hi, Can you pass along the following limited time discount to your members? Special offer for O'Reilly User Group program members: Along with your 35% discount off print books, you can now get 45% off all ebooks you purchase direct from oreilly.com for a limited time. When you buy an O'Reilly ebook you get lifetime access to the book, and whenever possible we make it available to you in four, DRM-free file formats--PDF, .epub, Kindle-compatible .mobi, and Android ebook--that you can use on the devices of your choice. Our ebook files are fully searchable, and you can cut-and-paste and print them. We also alert you when we've updated the files with corrections and additions. Just use code DSUG when ordering online at www.oreilly.com/store Read more about our ebook formats and the ways to use them here: http://oreilly.com/ebooks Until next time-- Marsee Henon You are receiving this email because you are a User Group contact with O'Reilly Media. Forward this announcement. If you would like to stop receiving these newsletters or announcements from O'Reilly, send an email to mar...@oreilly.com. O'Reilly Media, Inc. 1005 Gravenstein Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472 (707) 827-7000 --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: O'Reilly ebooks in Android Market (Was: Re: Fwd: UG News: 45% off Ebook Purchases from O'Reilly)
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 20:22 -0700, Alan Dayley wrote: Interesting observation, Craig. After reading your note I went and looked in the Market. I did a search o'reilly to see what would come up. There were a great many ebooks available for purchase. Just looking at the titles one cannot see the original publisher so I did not check many by opening a full description. The titles showed the VAST majority associated with Microsoft technologies. This is not so different from a physical book store but I was disappointed that I did not see a single title associated with Linux. There was one on using Git, a glimmer of more to come, maybe? I have found the market to be cumbersome to use and instead installed the package 'Barcode Scanner' and then you can go to various sites on your desktop computer like www.androidzoom.com (and there are many more) that have the same package listings but more comfortably on your desktop computer and they show a 'barcode' which you can just point the android camera at and when it scans the barcode, it will automatically take you to the package within the market and install it if you wish. I find this much easier. As I said, I felt that the flood of Microsoft Press items from O'Reilly sort of like spam in the Market because they came through in a serious wave and all the while I am thinking that they really don't know the market very well but then I figured it out... that O'Reilly just adapted their technology to publish on various handheld formats and Microsoft must have footed a substantial part of the effort and I would bet that all of those titles are also available on the iPhone too (good luck with that). Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: linux distro
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 15:27 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: Well, it seems like the list has come down to two major desktop distros, Ubuntu and Fedora and as far as I know neither is commercial. There was a time when Mandrake, Debian, Red Hat, SuSE, and others were all looking at the desktop as a potential market. The survivors seem to have headed for big servers or special cases. Meanwhile, a lot of activity has opened up in sub-desktop consumer Linux, most notably with Google's Android and Chrome. I think that Android and Chrome serve different purposes than the main stream Linux distributions - they are intended for lighterweight hardware, smaller cpu, smaller screens etc. and thus far, telephone and similar devices and netbooks have been their target. There clearly is a need for both lightweight desktops and full featured desktops. Any distribution looking to sell a Desktop OS is going to have to ramp put the technical support for it because people will have questions and expect answers. I gather that some of the early release images of Chrome have been dominating the torrents lately. I would like to point out that I just got a Moto Droid the other day and it is an extremely complicated device and I'm still discovering things about it. I thought at first it was curious that before the dude at the VZ store would hand me the telphone, he downloaded and installed 'Advanced Task Killer (Free)' and wanted to show me how to use it. I didn't need the demo, I understood what it was for but apparently at some level, VZ made a decision to teach people how to use these things because they are also holding classes on Android (one of my friends bought one and was very grateful for the class he went to). But I will point out things I didn't realize until after I got the Droid... - Evolution calendars sync rather well with Gmail calendars - Evolution contacts can mount Gmail contacts and contacts can be moved or copied back and forth (beware that certain punctuation like $/\ can cause problems) Not all fields work...but enough work - Evolution task lists however - fahgettabouddit It occurred to me that in this case, I was lucky because Linux desktop essentially already integrated support for Gmail while on Apple or Microsoft (especially Outlook), there are extra hoops. I also found when doing my google search thing for this, that the KDE PIM stuff can sync with Google but I don't use the KDE PIM stuff very much. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Droid/Android
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 17:45 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: I'm stuck with a Blackberry, which is OK. It sounds like your (Craig's) experience jives with the reviews, Droid is a phone geeks will love. That means it's a niche product. OS X is the best consumer OS I've worked in. I bet the iPhone still beats the Droid for *typical* user experience ... except for the network thing which Phoenix iPhone users I've known hate. well, I was sort of focused on the Linux desktop and the various alternatives and mentioned the integration but... My friend Scott is clearly not a geek and he loves his Motorola Droid. As far as I can tell, Most iPhone users also struggle with getting beyond basic usage/features and either need classes at the Apple store or a geek friend to show them things so I am not so convinced that there is that much difference. In the final analysis though, Apple is locked and Droid is not locked. Same choices for a desktop computer as a mobile telephone. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: loading fresh system from rpm list?
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 15:54 -0500, R P Herrold wrote: We have a product we use for testing such stripped boxes, as well as for production, and we make it available to customers: http://www.pmman.com/ I'm sure I'm just being stupid here but I can't figure out what your pricing is for hosting. Presently I am using GoDaddy for the domain which is primarily e-mail but their content filtering is excessive and blocking too much list mail traffic and would love to switch. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Fedora firestorm and thoughts
On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 12:00 -0700, Dazed_75 wrote: There seems to be a firestorm going on with regard to a change in the newly released Fedora 12. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/11/18/2039229/Fedora-12-Lets-Users-Install-Signed-Packages-Sans-Root-Privileges?art_pos=1 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=534047 How much this has blown up from being slashdotted is not an issue IMHO. And I agree that it was a horrible decision to make that change be the default. I do hope they revert it. My belief is that if they wanted such a change it is important enough they should have retained the old behavior and made an option to implement the new only by someone having root privileges and proving it. But the real reason for this post is that I have noticed what might be a trend in recent releases. It feels like a trend to me and I find that bothersome. The trend I am talking about is for new releases to change defaults and content in ways that so many reviews and tips are focussed on how to revert the improvements to the prior art. For example, there are many positive reviews for Karmic Koala (ubuntu 9.10) along with the usual problem reports. But it seems that many of the problem solutions and tips being published are how to fix Karmic back to the way ubuntu used to work. Now this thing with Fedora 12. I get concerned when it seems like we risk our advantages of better security and stability. I'm all for ease of use and innovation but I wonder if some changes are going too far and too fast. I have also noted that many changes are made to make things easier for new users (a good thing) but along the Microsoft model of assuming users must be stupid ... errr don't need/want to know. Is that bothering anyone else? by the way, this has been handled... http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-November/msg01445.html Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: not *buntu for netbook.
On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 20:39 -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: I just got a netbook and it is running Windows 7 Starter. I intend to promiscuously attach it to public networks. I figure I can avoid a lot of heartache by changing the OS to Linux. I already have Kubuntu on my favorite desktop. I like it, except that after every major upgrade it gets flaky for a while. 1) I'd like to use anything except *ubuntu on the netbook. What are some promising options? 2) I assume I use a bootable memory stick to start getting the distro, yes? There is a fair of optimization for Atom processor and netbooks in Fedora 12 with the new 'moblin' support... http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f12/en-US/html-single/ and yes, it was easy to get installed with a bootable memory stick - you can use a 'live' or the 'full' installer if you wish. I originally installed F-10 on my Aspire One with usb/live installer but I ended up booting F-11 full installer from the USB and installing that when it was still in development and earlier today, I did a 'preupgrade' to F12 so I don't have much feedback to give yet. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
