Re: Best first programming language
http://catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1
That's ESR's page. It's a good read and goes over a lot of what you guys are
talking about. I'm following his advice. Currently learning as much python
as I can. I also dabble in Java and C, but my main focus is on Python. It
allows me to focus on the basics of programming without doing the dirty work
like:
prototyping functions
declaring variables
using { and ;
You know all that extra typing that can result in an error.
The trivial programs I write scream for python. Java and C take MANY more
lines of code to accomplish the same thing. Oh and I can write GUI programs
with Python too (Tkinter).
Since he's going to learn Java anyway in school why not learn python now and
get some of the basics down. I suggest buying 'Learning Python' and
devouring it. Write programs with a focus on oop.
I've taken Java in college and ended up dropping it. It was a LOT of
information. I feel I can take it now and pretty easily get through the
class.
HTH
-Mike Hoy
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Mike Schwartz wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Jerry Davis wrote:
>
>> BTW, can someone tell me why this happens?
>>
>> $ perl -e 'print "hello world\n"'
>> hello world
>>
>> $ python -c 'print "hello world"'
>> hello world
>>
>> notice that I DID NOT have to put the \n at then end of the python print
>> statement? is it something to do with the -c (i.e. smart enough to know it
>> is a
>> cmd line script, and automatically puts a \n at the end?) or something?
>>
>> notice what happens when you leave the \n off of the perl script, and add
>> a \n
>> to the python script.
>>
>> just curious.
>>
>> --
>>
> [...]
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>>
>
> YES, I think it has something to do with the way the syntax works, in
> Python, for whether one "wants" to start
> a new line or not.
>Instead of being specifically "indicated", e.g., by having some kind
> of \n right where one "wants" to start a new line, it is determined by
> whether or not a COMMA is present, after the last item in the list (of
> stuff to be printed). (The last item in the list might also be the only
> item in the list...) Note that, in a sense the "polarity" is kinda
> backwards
> from the "\n" way of doing things. If the comma is ABSENT, then it
> ends the old line (starts a new one).
> By the way, in the summer of 2007, I was searching in the on-line
> tutorial for Python, to find where it teaches (/slash, documents) about
> how this ["comma"] feature works. I finally found it, but NOT by using
> the (very limited) indexing feature that is provided by that on-line
> tutorial for Python -- rather, I found it by using the "site:..." feature
> of
> doing a google search, and remembering that it can take any leading
> substring of the target URL, -- that is, it is NOT [!] limited to a domain
> name (as the word 'site:' might suggest).
> In fact, I later wrote an e-mail to Alan Dayley (I looked for it today
> but I have been unable to find it...!) about using that "site:..." feature
> of
> doing a google search, and remembering that it can take any leading
> substring of the target URL -- so it can go beyond (by far) just limiting
> itself to the domain name part of the URL.
> --
> Mike Schwartz
> Glendale AZ
> schwa...@acm.org
>
> ---
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> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
--
Mike Hoy
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Re: Best first programming language
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Jerry Davis wrote: > BTW, can someone tell me why this happens? > > $ perl -e 'print "hello world\n"' > hello world > > $ python -c 'print "hello world"' > hello world > > notice that I DID NOT have to put the \n at then end of the python print > statement? is it something to do with the -c (i.e. smart enough to know it > is a > cmd line script, and automatically puts a \n at the end?) or something? > > notice what happens when you leave the \n off of the perl script, and add a > \n > to the python script. > > just curious. > > -- > [...] > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > YES, I think it has something to do with the way the syntax works, in Python, for whether one "wants" to start a new line or not. Instead of being specifically "indicated", e.g., by having some kind of \n right where one "wants" to start a new line, it is determined by whether or not a COMMA is present, after the last item in the list (of stuff to be printed). (The last item in the list might also be the only item in the list...) Note that, in a sense the "polarity" is kinda backwards from the "\n" way of doing things. If the comma is ABSENT, then it ends the old line (starts a new one). By the way, in the summer of 2007, I was searching in the on-line tutorial for Python, to find where it teaches (/slash, documents) about how this ["comma"] feature works. I finally found it, but NOT by using the (very limited) indexing feature that is provided by that on-line tutorial for Python -- rather, I found it by using the "site:..." feature of doing a google search, and remembering that it can take any leading substring of the target URL, -- that is, it is NOT [!] limited to a domain name (as the word 'site:' might suggest). In fact, I later wrote an e-mail to Alan Dayley (I looked for it today but I have been unable to find it...!) about using that "site:..." feature of doing a google search, and remembering that it can take any leading substring of the target URL -- so it can go beyond (by far) just limiting itself to the domain name part of the URL. -- Mike Schwartz Glendale AZ schwa...@acm.org --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
So, after reading the whole thread I figured I would chime in just because I have programmed in most of the mentioned languages so I think I can add some perspective on the subject. The trick to becoming a great programmer is to understand programming itself and not just a specific language. So starting with a language just because it's the most used or promoted by a company is probably a mistake in itself. I believe he will have to learn at least 3 or 4 languages to get the whole gist of programming but my immediate recommendation for first language would be RUBY. I have done smaller and bigger programs in BASH,Perl, Python, Ruby, C, C++, Java, Obj-C but for the first language I would want to learn myself after all these projects I would pick Ruby. Here some of the reasons: * Ruby by far feels the most intuitive and well structured OO language out there. * It promotes the right balance between structured programming and flexibility of getting things done * It's rich with programmatic structures and concepts. * It has good documentation and there are a lot of books with great examples. (references below) * Lot's of code samples * Completely open source * Lot's of useful libraries * It has a great and very helpful community * It has at least to local (PHX) user groups * It is very easy to start and allows things other programming languages don't have (metaprogramming) * It has been used for projects ranging from small scripts all the way to Twitter and other big sites * It promotes test and design driven development with frameworks and fantastic tools * It has a few very well designed web frameworks * It is one of the fastest growing languages * Because of the development speed is a great tool even if you later have to progarm in other languages. * It integrates with JVM through JRuby * It's nice for programming Mac software through RubyCocoa or MacRuby * If you want .net you have IronRuby there are probably a lot more reasons but I am trying to keep this e-mail under 2 pages. Don't forget about Version Control it's a must: I currently use git: http://git-scm.com/ partly because there is a ton of code on github.com Another thing I would recommend is to pick up some of the best practices books: - Pragmatic Programmer - You can find it at pragprog.com - One of the design patterns book - The Gang of Four books is good but very dry to read - Code Complete - I know it's Microsoft but it's still one of the best books on constructing software Resources: http://www.pragprog.com/categories (check out the "facets of ruby" section http://www.pragprog.com/screencasts/v-dtrubyom/the-ruby-object-model-and-metaprogramming (Little advanced but very well explained) http://www.rubyaz.org/ http://railscasts.com/ - More ruby on rails then just ruby but it has some nice techniques http://peepcode.com/ - has some nice screencasts on testing ruby programs Good luck - Greg Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the > discussion. > > dennisk > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
Dennis, I am going to be starting classes in the fall, so I have been doing research on this subject. I am anti-Microsoft and pro-Linux/open source. The languages I want to learn are listed below in the order I plan on learning them. Latex: a markup language (it is simple to learn and useful) Bash: a common shell (As you know the purpose of a shell is to provide access to the kernel, also Bash is written in C.) C: a general purpose language (the linux kernel is written in C) C#: simple, modern, object-oriented language (it should teach good habits) C++: a middle-level language Perl: a scripting language Python: a high-level language I am not a programmer or a developer (yet), however, I wanted to share my research. Hope this helps. MatthewMPP Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the > discussion. > > dennisk > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Best first programming language
He said business applications, not device drivers. LOL _ From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Eric Cope Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:40 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Best first programming language I can't believe no one has mentioned assembly! On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Bob Elzer wrote: For business apps, I suggest COBOL, COmmon Business-Oriented Language. Oh wait, we're not in the 80's anymore. I learned PERL for the O'Reilly book Programming Perl, also known as the Camel book because of the picture of the camel on the cover. O'Reilly has many books on Perl and all are helpful. It's very helpful to know the capabilities of the shell you are using, to determine whether you need to write a quick script or a full blown program. O'Reilly has books on shells to. (I don't work for O'Reilly, but I'm sounding like a commercial) But even after you settle on a language, then you need to learn about all the API's (application programming interfaces) these are libraries of routines to help the programmer get his work done faster. So lets say you want to learn C or C++, depending on whether you use linux/unix, or windows, there may be different API to write to the screen, or read from a device more then just your basic I/O. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Dennis Kibbe Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:13 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Best first programming language I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications programmer. He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the discussion. dennisk -- "Free Software, Free Society" Free Software Foundation --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
I can't believe no one has mentioned assembly! On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Bob Elzer wrote: > For business apps, I suggest COBOL, COmmon Business-Oriented Language. Oh > wait, we're not in the 80's anymore. > > I learned PERL for the O'Reilly book Programming Perl, also known as the > Camel book because of the picture of the camel on the cover. O'Reilly has > many books on Perl and all are helpful. > > It's very helpful to know the capabilities of the shell you are using, to > determine whether you need to write a quick script or a full blown program. > O'Reilly has books on shells to. (I don't work for O'Reilly, but I'm > sounding like a commercial) > > But even after you settle on a language, then you need to learn about all > the API's (application programming interfaces) these are libraries of > routines to help the programmer get his work done faster. > > So lets say you want to learn C or C++, depending on whether you use > linux/unix, or windows, there may be different API to write to the screen, > or read from a device more then just your basic I/O. > > > > -Original Message- > From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Dennis > Kibbe > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:13 AM > To: Main PLUG discussion list > Subject: Best first programming language > > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone > elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow > the discussion. > > dennisk > > -- > "Free Software, Free Society" > Free Software Foundation > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Best first programming language
For business apps, I suggest COBOL, COmmon Business-Oriented Language. Oh wait, we're not in the 80's anymore. I learned PERL for the O'Reilly book Programming Perl, also known as the Camel book because of the picture of the camel on the cover. O'Reilly has many books on Perl and all are helpful. It's very helpful to know the capabilities of the shell you are using, to determine whether you need to write a quick script or a full blown program. O'Reilly has books on shells to. (I don't work for O'Reilly, but I'm sounding like a commercial) But even after you settle on a language, then you need to learn about all the API's (application programming interfaces) these are libraries of routines to help the programmer get his work done faster. So lets say you want to learn C or C++, depending on whether you use linux/unix, or windows, there may be different API to write to the screen, or read from a device more then just your basic I/O. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Dennis Kibbe Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:13 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Best first programming language I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications programmer. He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the discussion. dennisk -- "Free Software, Free Society" Free Software Foundation --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
I'd start with Java. * Starting with C teaches too many bad habits. I've spent more time with C programmers breaking bad habits than any other strongly-typed language. * Starting with C++ is like starting with C, except there is 100 times more to learn before you're productive, and 10 times more bad habits if you haven't learned good Object Oriented Design first. * CS schools used to start everyone in Pascal, because it teaches structured programming very well and strongly discourages bad habits. C was taught AFTER the students, presumably, learn good structured programming habits in Pascal. With the rise of Object Oriented programming, this needed to change. * Current curricula usually start with Java for the same reason they used to start with Pascal. Java teaches good Object Oriented Development habits with strong discouragement for bad habits (although there are still a few areas where Java can teach bad habits, particularly for Swing programming). * Starting with a scripting language (like Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP, Javascript, etc...) is like learning to drive trucks using a motorcycle. The rules are COMPLETELY different, and you'll pick up a lot of bad habits you may have difficulty unlearning later. Also, these languages are generally frowned upon in business applications, so it's a long twisty route to where the student wants to get. * C# forces a dependency on proprietary subsystems and patented API's. It's a nice language, but most of the jobs using it are really ASP jobs using the C# syntax as a scripting engine. It's sort of like writing JSP pages with Java, you don't really use the language well, and you learn absolutely TERRIBLE bad programming techniques because the whole system architecture for the typical ASP site is a Frankenstein's Monster twisting of good design principles. ASP (and JSP) can be useful tools (I use them myself in almost all web-based multi-tier applications), but the vast majority of uses I've seen abuse the technology to create 70's style monolithic applications because the software designer/architect simply doesn't know (or doesn't care) how to create an effective multi-tier system for the web. * Visual Basic is widely used in business simply because there are a ton of cheap, and low-skill, programmers available who ONLY know VB (many great programmers also know VB, but they tend not to be cheap). Most VB projects are done in VB because they have to be done very quickly, quality doesn't matter, and it has to be cheap. * Ada is a great language to learn structured procedural programming, but there's very little use for it, and the industry has mostly moved forward to Object Oriented design, so procedural programming is being squeezed into smaller and smaller niches (mostly very low-level code in the embedded or O/S space, sometimes packaged applications still use procedural code, but that's getting rare). * If you want to torture yourself working on Mainframes in dark cramped dilbertian cubicles, learn COBOL, it's valued mostly because very few people are learning it, but millions of lines of legacy code is still in use. * If you're really interested in learning just procedural programming (C, Ada, etc...), start with Pascal, and then learn C. You'll learn how to program well before having to deal with the much greater complexity of C. * All the minority languages (BASIC, scheme, lisp, smalltalk, eiffel, D, awk, snobol, icon, forth, etc...) make sense as languages to learn thoroughly once you've actually mastered at least 3 major languages (Java then C++; then C#, Ruby, Python, or Javascript). All of the above is my opinion only, and is a VERY brief summary, no offense is intended and many statements are broad generalities about the language; not intended to depict any particular person or group. Hope that helps. Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the > discussion. > > dennisk > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
I agree with Kieth. It has been at least 10 years since I wrote any code. I learned using Pascal and C and then moved to C++ and Java. I think C, Pascal, or Ada will all teach the programming skills needed before moving forward to OO languages. C to me seems the most relavent. Gilbert > I would recommend learning C first. Learn some simple procedural > programming then move to C++. I think this approach will make it easier > to learn other languages. > > I would stay away from Java for the first language. Too much to learn and > one can get lost in Java. > > > > > Keith Smith --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
Hey As a current comp sci student they should get really used to uml design and pseudo code more simply because there is more to a language than coding. Java and c++ are similar but what took me the longest going to java from c++ was designing classes and seeing their relationship. But as other people say those languages are great. Now if they are going to computer science than the best choice will java because the first two semesters will be java. Cse 240 is the class where they will learn c++ scheme, prolog, etc and the professor is always there for help especially nakamura at asu. --Original Message-- From: Chris Gehlker Sender: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To: Main PLUG discussion list ReplyTo: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: Best first programming language Sent: May 19, 2009 9:50 AM On May 19, 2009, at 8:51 AM, Paul Mooring wrote: > I really like ruby as well but my experience has been if he's planning > on pursuing some type of CS degree he'll definitely need to know java > and C++ for 90% of the programming related classes, so that might be a > better place to start. Here was my reasoning. In his freshman year he is going to have to take a survey course that will touch on C, C++, Java and Scheme. At some schools it may be C, C++, prolog and scheme. In his sophomore year he is going to have to take algorithms. In both these courses he will be expected to turn in pseudocode first followed by a working program. Now when I started my formal comp-sci education I already had experience in several languages but I found that it was very easy to write pseudocode that was very close to ruby or actually was ruby. Then it was very easy to translate the ruby into the target language because I had a working ruby implementation sitting in front of me. I don't know if there is any other language that lends itself to a C++, approach to a problem or to a scheme approach to a problem the ay ruby does. In the algorithms classes I literally turned in the same file for the pseudocode part of the assignment and for the executable part. The TAs who did the grading knew perfectly well what I was doing but they gave me good grades. TAs tend to like ruby. The ruby community was also very helpful and it was full of people who knew any given language. -- Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. -Steven Wright, comedian (b. 1955) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
just from my experience the bigger languages for business apps are Visual Basic PHP Java c/c++ ASP On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the > discussion. > > dennisk > > -- > "Free Software, Free Society" > Free Software Foundation > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
On May 19, 2009, at 8:51 AM, Paul Mooring wrote: > I really like ruby as well but my experience has been if he's planning > on pursuing some type of CS degree he'll definitely need to know java > and C++ for 90% of the programming related classes, so that might be a > better place to start. Here was my reasoning. In his freshman year he is going to have to take a survey course that will touch on C, C++, Java and Scheme. At some schools it may be C, C++, prolog and scheme. In his sophomore year he is going to have to take algorithms. In both these courses he will be expected to turn in pseudocode first followed by a working program. Now when I started my formal comp-sci education I already had experience in several languages but I found that it was very easy to write pseudocode that was very close to ruby or actually was ruby. Then it was very easy to translate the ruby into the target language because I had a working ruby implementation sitting in front of me. I don't know if there is any other language that lends itself to a C++, approach to a problem or to a scheme approach to a problem the ay ruby does. In the algorithms classes I literally turned in the same file for the pseudocode part of the assignment and for the executable part. The TAs who did the grading knew perfectly well what I was doing but they gave me good grades. TAs tend to like ruby. The ruby community was also very helpful and it was full of people who knew any given language. -- Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. -Steven Wright, comedian (b. 1955) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > According to some of the recent studies from the IEEE Computer Society I've read, Java is still king of business application development (.NET also ranks highly). So, for that specific goal I would recommend Java, for its market utility as well as the fact that its a nice sandbox'd and very object oriented language. I'd ask what sort of company he would like to work for though, as well-established companies tend to go with languages and technologies made by well-established companies and/or stuff from the 70s. Smaller companies, startups, consulting shops, etc. tend to lean more towards PHP, Ruby, etc. -- david [.dh] huerta haystackproject.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
I would recommend learning C first. Learn some simple procedural programming then move to C++. I think this approach will make it easier to learn other languages. I would stay away from Java for the first language. Too much to learn and one can get lost in Java. Keith Smith --- On Tue, 5/19/09, Gerald Thurman wrote: > From: Gerald Thurman > Subject: Re: Best first programming language > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 6:36 AM > Learn to use a Unix system at the > command-line along with a text editor and start writing BASH > program. The command-line provides exposure to the Unix > philosophy, files/directories, options/arguments, variables > (environment), I/O, meta-characters and documentation (via > manpages). First programs are written in BASH. BASH > supports structured programming (sequence, if, while, > functions) and an introduction to data structures/algorithms > via arrays. After BASH I'd move onto C (using Ritchie > and Kernighan for the text) with extensive coverage of the > STDC Library. From this point there are numerous forks in > the road. > > > The "hello, world" program writtin in BASH. > > $ echo hello, world > > > -Inline Attachment Follows- > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
I really like ruby as well but my experience has been if he's planning on pursuing some type of CS degree he'll definitely need to know java and C++ for 90% of the programming related classes, so that might be a better place to start. On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 08:21 -0700, Chris Gehlker wrote: > On May 19, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > > > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about > > this. > > > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a > > summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business > > applications programmer. > > > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the > > prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the > > cloud. > > > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome > > anyone elses. > > > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to > > follow the discussion. > > Ruby. > > --- > Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely > or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear. > > -Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate > (1872-1970) > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
On May 19, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about > this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a > summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business > applications programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the > prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the > cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome > anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to > follow the discussion. Ruby. --- Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970) --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Best first programming language
At the risk of starting a flame war I would say the best is C#. If you look at both Tech Republic and CIO Magazine both have had articles in the last four or five months that listed .Net in the top ten skill sets for the current economy. Also as our office has been in the shutdown mode since November I have been scanning over 20 different job boards since and overwhelming there are more job posting for C# .Net Web programmers than any other area. If your goal is to get a job as a business programmer it seems that C# and .Net will give you the best chance to get a job. Just my observations. David -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us]on Behalf Of Dennis Kibbe Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:13 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Best first programming language I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications programmer. He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the discussion. dennisk -- "Free Software, Free Society" Free Software Foundation --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
The Python print function automatically appends a newline at the end of the string you tell it to print (this can be overridden). --- Jon M. Hanson (N7ZVJ) Homepage: http://the-hansons-az.net/drupal Jabber IM: j...@the-hansons-az.net On May 19, 2009, at 7:29 AM, Jerry Davis wrote: > BTW, can someone tell me why this happens? > > $ perl -e 'print "hello world\n"' > hello world > > $ python -c 'print "hello world"' > hello world > > notice that I DID NOT have to put the \n at then end of the python > print > statement? is it something to do with the -c (i.e. smart enough to > know it is a > cmd line script, and automatically puts a \n at the end?) or > something? > > notice what happens when you leave the \n off of the perl script, > and add a \n > to the python script. > > just curious. > > -- > Hobbit Name: Pimpernel Loamsdown > Registered Linux User: 275424 > K7AZJ > > This email's Fortune: > The only way to amuse some people is to slip and fall on an > icy pavement. > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
--- On Tue, 5/19/09, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to > take a summer course in programming. His goal is to become a > business applications programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess > the prgramming landscape is changing with more services > going into the cloud. With above emphasis, I think the first choice is Java. --Jason --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
BTW, can someone tell me why this happens? $ perl -e 'print "hello world\n"' hello world $ python -c 'print "hello world"' hello world notice that I DID NOT have to put the \n at then end of the python print statement? is it something to do with the -c (i.e. smart enough to know it is a cmd line script, and automatically puts a \n at the end?) or something? notice what happens when you leave the \n off of the perl script, and add a \n to the python script. just curious. -- Hobbit Name: Pimpernel Loamsdown Registered Linux User: 275424 K7AZJ This email's Fortune: The only way to amuse some people is to slip and fall on an icy pavement. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
On Tue, 19 May 2009 06:36:01 -0700 Gerald Thurman wrote: > Learn to use a Unix system at the command-line along with a text editor and > start writing BASH program. The command-line provides exposure to the Unix > philosophy, files/directories, options/arguments, variables (environment), > I/O, meta-characters and documentation (via manpages). First programs are > written in BASH. BASH supports structured programming (sequence, if, while, > functions) and an introduction to data structures/algorithms via arrays. > After BASH I'd move onto C (using Ritchie and Kernighan for the text) with > extensive coverage of the STDC Library. From this point there are numerous > forks in the road. > > The "hello, world" program writtin in BASH. > > $ echo hello, world I've been a bash/ksh developer for a lot of years, also a perl programmer for 11 years, and recently am relearning C++ again (after not having used it [ actually C not C++ ] since 1986). I've done pascal and ada too. I cut my teeth on Fortran IV, and various PDP-11 assembly languages. I would say that the best "first language" to get the hang of programming, would be python or perl. They are easy to program in, much more powerful than bash, and give you fairly instant results. Perl is easy to debug, but I think python for a "first" language has the edge. Once he can program in python, then he can branch out into other languages. He needs to learn the basics, and get to "think" in terms of algorithms, not get bogged down in syntax. This is all IMHO, of course. -- Hobbit Name: Pimpernel Loamsdown Registered Linux User: 275424 K7AZJ This email's Fortune: arachnoleptic fit, n.: The frantic dance performed just after you've accidentally walked through a spider web. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
Learn to use a Unix system at the command-line along with a text editor and start writing BASH program. The command-line provides exposure to the Unix philosophy, files/directories, options/arguments, variables (environment), I/O, meta-characters and documentation (via manpages). First programs are written in BASH. BASH supports structured programming (sequence, if, while, functions) and an introduction to data structures/algorithms via arrays. After BASH I'd move onto C (using Ritchie and Kernighan for the text) with extensive coverage of the STDC Library. From this point there are numerous forks in the road. The "hello, world" program writtin in BASH. $ echo hello, world --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Best first programming language
Even though I am not knowledgeable in the language, I think the best first language for business is Java. It is also good for a first leaning experience for other reasons but it is popular in the business application world. For web applications, "in the cloud," Ruby seems to be a more and more popular next language. Alan On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Dennis Kibbe wrote: > I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. > > A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer > course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications > programmer. > > He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming > landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. > > Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. > > My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the > discussion. > > dennisk > > -- > "Free Software, Free Society" > Free Software Foundation > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Best first programming language
I searched the archive but didn't find a previous discussion about this. A friend who graduates from high school next week wants to take a summer course in programming. His goal is to become a business applications programmer. He asked me what language he should start with. I'd guess the prgramming landscape is changing with more services going into the cloud. Joseph, Hans, Charles I'm sure you have opinoins and I welcome anyone elses. My friend, Ian isn't on the list so I'll point him to gmane.org to follow the discussion. dennisk -- "Free Software, Free Society" Free Software Foundation --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
