subject:"Re\: We are screwed."

mike havens wrote:
 It is not surprising but Obama won:(
 
 -- 
 :-)~MIKE~(-:

Damn right, it's not surprising.  After 8 years of pissing on the 
Constitution, destroying our international image and lining the pockets 
of themselves and their top bribers, oh, sorry, campaign contributors 
to the complete detriment of the citizenry, the crooks in the GOP 
finally got kicked out.

And if by screwed you mean we have the chance to unfsck the country, 
then, yeah, we're screwed.  Thanks God for that.

-- 
Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 08:18 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
 mike havens wrote:
  It is not surprising but Obama won:(
  
  -- 
  :-)~MIKE~(-:
 
 Damn right, it's not surprising.  After 8 years of pissing on the 
 Constitution, destroying our international image and lining the pockets 
 of themselves and their top bribers, oh, sorry, campaign contributors 
 to the complete detriment of the citizenry, the crooks in the GOP 
 finally got kicked out.
 
 And if by screwed you mean we have the chance to unfsck the country, 
 then, yeah, we're screwed.  Thanks God for that.

and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
them under employed for nearly a decade.

America has a very curious political discourse.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.


I'm of the opinion all things are relevant to a Linux list.  If unemployment 
goes to 11% and people on this list suffer because of it is that not relevant?

What if in an an attempt to save money in a down turn economy, cooperate 
America turns to Open Source to cut lost or at least reduce licensing fees?  Is 
that not relevant?  What if that creates more jobs for Linux Admins, PHP  Java 
Programmers, and MySql data Admins, is that not relevant? 

Record voting must mean people are concerned, I know I am.

So I say it is relevant.


Keith Smith



--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Dan Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Dan Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 1:31 AM

Personal choices for personal people.
DEFINITELY not the topic for here.

Thanks,
Dan Lund

There is only one good, namely knowledge, and only one evil, namely
ignorance.
--Socrates



On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:22 AM, mike havens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It is not surprising but Obama won:(

 --
 :-)~MIKE~(-:

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Re: We are screwed.

Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do for
you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the STATESMAN
mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
 themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
 Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
 them under employed for nearly a decade.

 America has a very curious political discourse.


 Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

A couple of days ago, here in florida, a woman was thankful because she sees
a time on the near horizon when, 'I won't have to worry about putting food
on my table or putting gas in my car.' She wants socialism! She, and like
minded people, didn't pay attention durring the USSRs regin, nor do the
understand cuba or other communist places. You think communism is not
socialism? Please, explain to me the difference.

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 12:57 PM, keith smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your
 business to help those who do not want to help themselves.



 
 Keith Smith


 --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote:

 From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 8:45 AM


 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 08:18 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
  mike havens wrote:
   It is not surprising but Obama won:(
  
   --
   :-)~MIKE~(-:
 
  Damn right,
  it's not surprising.  After 8 years of pissing on the
  Constitution, destroying our international image and lining the pockets
  of themselves and their top bribers, oh, sorry, campaign
 contributors
  to the complete detriment of the citizenry, the crooks in the GOP
  finally got kicked out.
 
  And if by screwed you mean we have the chance to unfsck
 the country,
  then, yeah, we're screwed.  Thanks God for that.
 
 and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
 themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
 Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
 them under employed for nearly a decade.

 America has a very curious political discourse.

 Craig

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-- 
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Re: We are screwed.


Good quote! 





--- On Wed, 11/5/08, mike havens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: mike havens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:08 AM

Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do for you; 
but for what you can do for your country,  and to the STATESMAN mindset 
rathedr than to the politician mindset.


On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed

themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the

Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have

them under employed for nearly a decade.







America has a very curious political discourse.



Craig



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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Joshua Zeidner

  some interesting pics of the USSR:

  http://www.englishrussia.com/?p=1960

  -jmz

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:15 AM, mike havens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A couple of days ago, here in florida, a woman was thankful because she
 sees a time on the near horizon when, 'I won't have to worry about putting
 food on my table or putting gas in my car.' She wants socialism! She, and
 like minded people, didn't pay attention durring the USSRs regin, nor do the
 understand cuba or other communist places. You think communism is not
 socialism? Please, explain to me the difference.


 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 12:57 PM, keith smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:


 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your
 business to help those who do not want to help themselves.



 
 Keith Smith


 --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote:

 From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 8:45 AM


 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 08:18 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:
  mike havens wrote:
   It is not surprising but Obama won:(

  
   --
   :-)~MIKE~(-:
 
  Damn right,
  it's not surprising.  After 8 years of pissing on the
  Constitution, destroying our international image and lining the pockets
  of themselves and their top bribers, oh, sorry, campaign
 contributors

  to the complete detriment of the citizenry, the crooks in the GOP
  finally got kicked out.
 
  And if by screwed you mean we have the chance to unfsck
 the country,

  then, yeah, we're screwed.  Thanks God for that.
 
 and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
 themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
 Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have

 them under employed for nearly a decade.

 America has a very curious political discourse.

 Craig

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 --
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Re: We are screwed.

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 09:57 -0800, keith smith wrote:
 
 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax
 your business to help those who do not want to help themselves.

Socialist?

Seems to me that bailing out Wall Street companies and banks was as
socialist as it gets and this was the proposal advanced by President
Bush and then authorized by members of Congress from both sides of the
aisle.

The graduated income tax scale has been US law for a century now and the
commentary that includes the socialist label upon any particular faction
for adjusting the indexes of the graduated scale merely proves the point
that some people cannot help but get suckered into class warfare
advanced by the Republicans. The irony is that the people who beat this
drum are often those who are on the lower end of the wage scale and
mostly unaffected anyway.

It needs to be pointed out that America was far more prosperous as a
nation and the more specifically, the middle class enjoyed an expansion
of wealth during the 90's when Clinton was president and though there's
no proof that returning the taxation scales to that which existed before
the 'Bush Tax Cuts' were put into place, there is certainly enough
evidence that the malaise that has ensued from 8 years of Bush economics
has decimated the middle class, and now the general US economy to depths
that we haven't even begun to realize...yet.

Identity politics that labels Obama as a Socialist is proof that one has
absolutely no grasp of what is happening in this country at all and
simply cannot get beyond the spoon feeding being propagated by those who
value greed personal wealth and the politics of division...guess what?
You lost yesterday

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Josh Andler

I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend Republicans
to be quite amusing. :P

mike havens wrote:
 Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do
 for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
 STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.

 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
 themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
 Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
 them under employed for nearly a decade.

 America has a very
 curious political
 discourse.


 Craig

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 -- 
 :-)~MIKE~(-:
 

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Alex Dean



On Nov 5, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Craig White wrote:



The graduated income tax scale has been US law for a century now and  
the
commentary that includes the socialist label upon any particular  
faction
for adjusting the indexes of the graduated scale merely proves the  
point

that some people cannot help but get suckered into class warfare
advanced by the Republicans.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122463199532056477.html

Good insight on the GOP and the working class.

For those not inclined to read the whole thing :

  The conservative movement made its name battling moral relativists  
on campus, bellowing for a strict construction
  of our nation's founding documents, and pandering to people who  
believe that the Book of Genesis literally records

  the origins of human existence.

  And yet here are the words of Ronald Reagan's pollster, Richard  
Wirthlin, as recorded in one of the main Reagan
  strategy documents from 1980: People act on the basis of their  
perception of reality; there is, in fact, no political

  reality beyond what is perceived by the voters.


PGP.sig
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Re: We are screwed.

keith smith wrote:
 
 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your 
 business to help those who do not want to help themselves.

BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and 
you should know better.

One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to 
try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.

And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush 
and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then you're 
smoking crack.

Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that the 
*vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
$250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.

The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me got 
sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had McCain 
run his campaign the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business as 
usual.

You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.

Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread farli

I find it amusing that anyone can attempt to defend the fascist state 
that Obama will try to lead us out of!  Maybe, since the Republicans 
have shown their true nature, it is time to at least give the Democrats 
a chance.

Josh Andler wrote:
 I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend Republicans
 to be quite amusing. :P
 
 mike havens wrote:
 Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do
 for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
 STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.

 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
 themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
 Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
 them under employed for nearly a decade.

 America has a very
 curious political
 discourse.


 Craig

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 -- 
 :-)~MIKE~(-:
 

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Re: We are screwed.

mute.. mute mute dammit, gmail. ok fine..

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Josh Andler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend Republicans
 to be quite amusing. :P


If your measure were based on the values represented by the quote and not
the party of the speaker, then you would not find it ironic.



 mike havens wrote:
  Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do
  for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
  STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.
 


This list if full of individuals with widely varying views, and arguments
such as this will do little to change the mind of most of us.  Despite that,
I grow tired of ignorant statements.

Obama won't tax those making less than 300k, then 250k, then 150k, then
120k.. Did know one else notice that? Does no one else remember Clinton's
1992 campaign on middle class tax cuts and making the rich pay their fair
share? Does no one else remember that Clinton then announced there will be
no tax cuts on Jan 15th, 1993 before he was even sworn in? Does no one else
remember Clinton's largest tax increase in US history?

If you hang your hopes and dreams on any politician (Dem, Repub, or
otherwise), you will be sorely disappointed.

Obama isn't going to give tax cuts, though he may further increase tax
refunds given to those not paying taxes.  If you haven't been paying
attention, the Bush tax cuts are temporary and will expire soon.  This will
bring back the death tax, increase capital gains tax rates, and
substantially increase tax rates across the board.  Congress has no
intention of making the Bush tax cuts permanent.  It will be easy for Obama
to claim he want to give people a break, and blame Congress for not giving
him a bill or whatever excuse. That's politics. Obama isn't any different,
and may actually be among the worst of them.  Look, he's offered a cabinet
to Rahm f--- them Emanual.

I don't blame people for wanting to kick the Republicans to the curb; it's
just unfortunate that they've marred the values I stand for but which they
didn't actually uphold.  If you look around the world and at our own
history, it should be pretty obvious that government and bureacracy can't
fix your life.  The best thing it can do is provide for defense and equal
opportunity then get out of your way.

Do you actually trust the government to run more programs and in anyway make
decisions for you with the track record they have? Deficit, Iraq war
pre-surge, Afghanistan right now, social security, welfare, healthcare laws
and regulation, 8000 pages of tax code (wtf?), bridge to nowhere,
subsidizing wooden arrows in a bank bail out bill, the bank bail out
itself.. seriously?

For the liberals, congratulations for the most liberal admin and congress in
us history. Good luck with that. For the neo-cons, thanks, appreciate it
(not).  For the conservatives, like myself, this will bring clarity. That is
a good thing.

In the end, this is still America. I, for one, am still proud to be an
American and love this country for things like election. It is a major
political shift, and it is a peacful one.

Now, lemme try that gmail mute thing again.

-j
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Re: We are screwed.


Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly not even 
legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a lawsuit to 
determine this fact? 

He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for the same 
thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there was something to 
hide.  So did McCain.

I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were did he 
come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached hate not 
reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has an illegal alien 
aunt.  What else do we not know about?  

What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been happy with 
America...  I've always been proud of this country that I have served on 
active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.  What has he done?  Did 
he serve?  Has he sacrificed?

What little we know about him scares me. 

I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the bailout nor 
do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less scary. 


Keith Smith




--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM

keith smith wrote:
 
 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your 
 business to help those who do not want to help themselves.

BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and 
you should know better.

One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to 
try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.

And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush 
and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then
you're 
smoking crack.

Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that the 
*vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
$250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.

The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me got 
sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had McCain 
run his campaign the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business as 
usual.

You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.

Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

Whatever our differences, we are fellow Americans, and believe me when
I say no association has ever meant more to me than that. It is natural
to feel some disappointment, but tomorrow we must move beyond it and ...
get our country moving again.

I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just
congratulating him, but offering our next president our good will and
earnest effort to find ways to come together to find the necessary
compromises to bridge our differences and help restore our prosperity,
defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and
grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited.

John McCain  11/4/2008

I guess this is all lost on you

Craig

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 12:03 -0800, keith smith wrote:
 
 Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly
 not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a
 lawsuit to determine this fact? 
 
 He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for
 the same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there
 was something to hide.  So did McCain.
 
 I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were
 did he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached
 hate not reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has
 an illegal alien aunt.  What else do we not know about?  
 
 What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been
 happy with America...  I've always been proud of this country that I
 have served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.
 What has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?
 
 What little we know about him scares me. 
 
 I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the
 bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less
 scary. 
 
 
 Keith Smith
 
 
 
 
 --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM
 
 keith smith
  wrote:
  
  A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax 
 your 
  business to help those who do not want to help themselves.
 
 BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash 
 and 
 you should know better.
 
 One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to 
 try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.
 
 And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like 
 Bush 
 and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then
 you're 
 smoking crack.
 
 Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that 
 the 
 *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
 $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.
 
 The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me 
 got 
 sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had 
 McCain 
 run his campaign
  the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
 would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
 advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business 
 as 
 usual.
 
 You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.
 
 Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Nathan

On Wednesday 05 November 2008 12:18:18 Josh Coffman wrote:
 mute.. mute mute dammit, gmail. ok fine..
 
 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Josh Andler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend Republicans
  to be quite amusing. :P
 
 
 If your measure were based on the values represented by the quote and not
 the party of the speaker, then you would not find it ironic.
 
 
 
  mike havens wrote:
   Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do
   for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
   STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.
  
 
 
 This list if full of individuals with widely varying views, and arguments
 such as this will do little to change the mind of most of us.  Despite that,
 I grow tired of ignorant statements.
 
 Obama won't tax those making less than 300k, then 250k, then 150k, then
 120k.. Did know one else notice that? Does no one else remember Clinton's
 1992 campaign on middle class tax cuts and making the rich pay their fair
 share? Does no one else remember that Clinton then announced there will be
 no tax cuts on Jan 15th, 1993 before he was even sworn in? Does no one else
 remember Clinton's largest tax increase in US history?
 
 If you hang your hopes and dreams on any politician (Dem, Repub, or
 otherwise), you will be sorely disappointed.
 
 Obama isn't going to give tax cuts, though he may further increase tax
 refunds given to those not paying taxes.  If you haven't been paying
 attention, the Bush tax cuts are temporary and will expire soon.  This will
 bring back the death tax, increase capital gains tax rates, and
 substantially increase tax rates across the board.  Congress has no
 intention of making the Bush tax cuts permanent.  It will be easy for Obama
 to claim he want to give people a break, and blame Congress for not giving
 him a bill or whatever excuse. That's politics. Obama isn't any different,
 and may actually be among the worst of them.  Look, he's offered a cabinet
 to Rahm f--- them Emanual.
 
 I don't blame people for wanting to kick the Republicans to the curb; it's
 just unfortunate that they've marred the values I stand for but which they
 didn't actually uphold.  If you look around the world and at our own
 history, it should be pretty obvious that government and bureacracy can't
 fix your life.  The best thing it can do is provide for defense and equal
 opportunity then get out of your way.
 
 Do you actually trust the government to run more programs and in anyway make
 decisions for you with the track record they have? Deficit, Iraq war
 pre-surge, Afghanistan right now, social security, welfare, healthcare laws
 and regulation, 8000 pages of tax code (wtf?), bridge to nowhere,
 subsidizing wooden arrows in a bank bail out bill, the bank bail out
 itself.. seriously?
 
 For the liberals, congratulations for the most liberal admin and congress in
 us history. Good luck with that. For the neo-cons, thanks, appreciate it
 (not).  For the conservatives, like myself, this will bring clarity. That is
 a good thing.
 
 In the end, this is still America. I, for one, am still proud to be an
 American and love this country for things like election. It is a major
 political shift, and it is a peacful one.
 
 Now, lemme try that gmail mute thing again.
 
 -j
 


Good post. I agree with most of what you said. I did not like either candidate, 
but being forced to take part in a two party system, I had to pick which one I 
thought was better for the country, and I will not lie and say my Bible had 
nothing to do with it. Some of Obama's ideas are fine. Same with Mccain. Some 
of them are really quite scary! Same with Mccain. None of which is anything 
Bush wouldn't or hasn't already done himself.

Nonetheless, the media ran out Ron Paul so he never had a chance. It's 
unfortunate, but this is the mess we are stuck with.
I will quote you because I think you said it well...
 In the end, this is still America. I, for one, am still proud to be an
 American and love this country for things like election. It is a major
 political shift, and it is a peacful one

nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread farli

A Drudgie!  Believe whatever you choose based on what little you see.

keith smith wrote:
 
 I have no TV.  I do not know Sean and do not listen to Rush.  I do not 
 listen to talk radio either.
 
 All my questions come from the Internet's many sources.
 
 
 
 Keith Smith
 http://www.netcodeman.com/
 
 
 
 --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, farli /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
 From: farli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 1:11 PM
 
 Someone needs to watch something other than Fox and listen to someone 
 other than Sean and Rush!
 
 The
  facts are out there, keith - if you choose to look
 
 
 keith smith wrote:
  
  Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly 
  not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a 
  lawsuit to determine this fact?
  
  He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for 
 the 
  same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there was 
  something to hide.  So did McCain.
  
  I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were 
  did he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached 
  hate not reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has 
 an 
  illegal alien aunt.  What else do we not know about? 
  
  What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been
 happy 
  with America...  I've always been proud of this
  country that I
 have 
  served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.  What 
  has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?
  
  What little we know about him scares me.
  
  I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the 
  bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less 
  scary.
  
  
  Keith Smith
  http://www.netcodeman.com/
  
  
  
  --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron
 /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* 
  wrote:
  
  From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: We are screwed.
  To: Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
  Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM
  
  keith smith
   wrote:
 
   
   A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to
 tax your 
   business to help those who do not want to help themselves.
  
  BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash
 and 
  you should know better.
  
  One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough 
 to 
  try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.
  
  And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like 
 Bush
 
  and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move
 then
  you're 
  smoking crack.
  
  Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that
 the 
  *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
  $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.
  
  The GOP
  lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me
 got 
  sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had
 McCain 
  run his campaign
   the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
  would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
  advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP 
 business
 as 
  usual.
  
  You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.
  
  Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Nathan

On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
 Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a 3rd
 party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is infinitesimally
 small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two evils
 has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress with a
 19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values and
 vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from getting
 in office. Its not a horse race.
 
 Eric
 

I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul an equal 
chance... 

nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:57 -0700, Jason Hayes wrote:

 For those who missed the repeated updates on that particular promise from 
 Obama. It started at $300K/yr. Then it moved to $250K, then $200K, then $150K 
 (Biden), then $120K (Gov Richardson NM).
 
 During the primaries, Obama referred to the those who make more than $97,000 
 as the top earners. Additionally, Obama has voted to raise taxes on anyone 
 making more than $42,000.
 
 You can make the argument that Richardson isn't in Obama's inner circle if 
 you 
 want. However, the progression was clear. When he had a chance, he reduced 
 the 
 number that made you rich in his eyes regularly. And, like it or not, there 
 are a lot of small business owners that gross more than $42,000, $97,000, 
 $120,000, or $150,000 a year. 
 
 Put more simply, there's no way that Obama can implement his more than $1 
 trillion in spending increases -- over and above Bush's massive spending 
 increases -- and not increase taxes.

for those that missed it...the election was yesterday and the American
public overwhelmingly rejected the mis-characterizations that you seem
to feel necessary to repeat above.

you have joined the world of irrelevant - at least until the next voting
cycle - I hope you enjoy your new found status.

Here's a hint...repeating mis-characterizations endlessly does not ever
make them true.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:11 PM, mike havens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Alex Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 We should be one country, and not just when your guy wins or my guy wins.
  If that's the approach you're committed to, and you won't so much as listen
 to a different idea because of who it comes from, then I guess we won't have
 much to discuss.  But that's not how this country is supposed to work.  The
 sky is not falling, however dire our situation might be.


 You are quite correct in saying that we need to be one country.. and
 need I remind you that all durring president ush's presidency that most news
 people would never Refer to him as PRESIDENT Bush, almost invariably it was
 Mister Bush because they didn't vote for him. Well, let's see how well MR
 Obama does.
 --
 :-)~MIKE~(-:

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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Look at his social agenda

 Craig

 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 14:01 -0700, Eric Cope wrote:
  Craig,
  I am interested in your interpretation of a libertarian platform and
  Paul's platform.
  Eric
 
  On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:31 -0700, Nathan wrote:
   On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't
  argue that a 3rd
party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
  infinitesimally
small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for
  lesser of two evils
has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a
  Congress with a
19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine
  our own values and
vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone
  else from getting
in office. Its not a horse race.
   
Eric
   
  
   I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul
  did not win.
   Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to
  give Paul an equal chance...
 
  
  I think that a parliamentary system allows for other voices
  and more
  participation but that is not what we have in the US. Too bad
  for us I
  think because I rather admire the notion in England of 'loyal
  opposition' - a concept that is foreign to the political
  system here.
 
  I do think that across the board, the political system does
  not
  typically encourage the best/brightest and I don't recall an
  election
  where one of the presidential choices was my ideal candidate
  and I don't
  see that changing any time soon, either.
 
  Ron Paul is a marginal voice with a marginal message and his
  adherents
  were so over the top this cycle that his message couldn't be
  considered
  reasonable. He is incapable of sticking to a libertarian
  agenda.
 
  Craig
 
 
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:57 -0700, Jason Hayes wrote:

  For those who missed the repeated updates on that particular promise from
  Obama. It started at $300K/yr. Then it moved to $250K, then $200K, then
 $150K
  (Biden), then $120K (Gov Richardson NM).
 
  During the primaries, Obama referred to the those who make more than
 $97,000
  as the top earners. Additionally, Obama has voted to raise taxes on
 anyone
  making more than $42,000.
 
  You can make the argument that Richardson isn't in Obama's inner circle
 if you
  want. However, the progression was clear. When he had a chance, he
 reduced the
  number that made you rich in his eyes regularly. And, like it or not,
 there
  are a lot of small business owners that gross more than $42,000, $97,000,
  $120,000, or $150,000 a year.
 
  Put more simply, there's no way that Obama can implement his more than $1
  trillion in spending increases -- over and above Bush's massive spending
  increases -- and not increase taxes.
 
 for those that missed it...the election was yesterday and the American
 public overwhelmingly rejected the mis-characterizations that you seem
 to feel necessary to repeat above.

 you have joined the world of irrelevant - at least until the next voting
 cycle - I hope you enjoy your new found status.

 Here's a hint...repeating mis-characterizations endlessly does not ever
 make them true.

 Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Eric Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Craig,
 I am interested in your interpretation of a libertarian platform and Paul's
 platform.
 Eric


 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:31 -0700, Nathan wrote:
  On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
   Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a
 3rd
   party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
 infinitesimally
   small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two
 evils
   has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress
 with a
   19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values
 and
   vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from
 getting
   in office. Its not a horse race.
  
   Eric
  
 
  I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
  Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul
 an equal chance...
 
 I think that a parliamentary system allows for other voices and more
 participation but that is not what we have in the US. Too bad for us I
 think because I rather admire the notion in England of 'loyal
 opposition' - a concept that is foreign to the political system here.

 I do think that across the board, the political system does not
 typically encourage the best/brightest and I don't recall an election
 where one of the presidential choices was my ideal candidate and I don't
 see that changing any time soon, either.

 Ron Paul is a marginal voice with a marginal message and his adherents
 were so over the top this cycle that his message couldn't be considered
 reasonable. He is incapable of sticking to a libertarian agenda.

 Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:31 -0700, Nathan wrote:
  On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
   Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a
 3rd
   party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
 infinitesimally
   small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two
 evils
   has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress
 with a
   19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values
 and
   vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from
 getting
   in office. Its not a horse race.
  
   Eric
  
 
  I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
  Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul an
 equal chance...
 
 I think that a parliamentary system allows for other voices and more
 participation but that is not what we have in the US. Too bad for us I
 think because I rather admire the notion in England of 'loyal
 opposition' - a concept that is foreign to the political system here.

 I do think that across the board, the political system does not
 typically encourage the best/brightest and I don't recall an election
 where one of the presidential choices was my ideal candidate and I don't
 see that changing any time soon, either.

 Ron Paul is a marginal voice with a marginal message and his adherents
 were so over the top this cycle that his message couldn't be considered
 reasonable. He is incapable of sticking to a libertarian agenda.

 Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Eric Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If you believe in the fairness doctrine, then you have no idea what Paul
 represented.


 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
  Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a
 3rd
  party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
 infinitesimally
  small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two
 evils
  has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress with
 a
  19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values
 and
  vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from
 getting
  in office. Its not a horse race.
 
  Eric
 

 I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
 Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul an
 equal chance...

 nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:35 PM, farli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Maybe it is time that we start working for constitutional options to the
 two party system!  they are out there!

 Nathan wrote:
  On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
  Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a
 3rd
  party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
 infinitesimally
  small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two
 evils
  has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress with
 a
  19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values
 and
  vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from
 getting
  in office. Its not a horse race.
 
  Eric
 
 
  I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
  Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul an
 equal chance...
 
  nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
  Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a
 3rd
  party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is infinitesimally
  small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two evils
  has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress with
 a
  19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values
 and
  vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from
 getting
  in office. Its not a horse race.
 
  Eric
 

 I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul did not win.
 Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to give Paul an
 equal chance...

 nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Eric Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't argue that a 3rd
 party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is infinitesimally
 small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for lesser of two evils
 has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a Congress with a
 19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine our own values and
 vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone else from getting
 in office. Its not a horse race.

 Eric

 On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wednesday 05 November 2008 12:18:18 Josh Coffman wrote:
  mute.. mute mute dammit, gmail. ok fine..
 
  On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Josh Andler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend
 Republicans
   to be quite amusing. :P
  
 
  If your measure were based on the values represented by the quote and
 not
  the party of the speaker, then you would not find it ironic.
 
 
  
   mike havens wrote:
Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can
 do
for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.
   
  
 
  This list if full of individuals with widely varying views, and
 arguments
  such as this will do little to change the mind of most of us.  Despite
 that,
  I grow tired of ignorant statements.
 
  Obama won't tax those making less than 300k, then 250k, then 150k, then
  120k.. Did know one else notice that? Does no one else remember
 Clinton's
  1992 campaign on middle class tax cuts and making the rich pay their
 fair
  share? Does no one else remember that Clinton then announced there will
 be
  no tax cuts on Jan 15th, 1993 before he was even sworn in? Does no one
 else
  remember Clinton's largest tax increase in US history?
 
  If you hang your hopes and dreams on any politician (Dem, Repub, or
  otherwise), you will be sorely disappointed.
 
  Obama isn't going to give tax cuts, though he may further increase tax
  refunds given to those not paying taxes.  If you haven't been paying
  attention, the Bush tax cuts are temporary and will expire soon.  This
 will
  bring back the death tax, increase capital gains tax rates, and
  substantially increase tax rates across the board.  Congress has no
  intention of making the Bush tax cuts permanent.  It will be easy for
 Obama
  to claim he want to give people a break, and blame Congress for not
 giving
  him a bill or whatever excuse. That's politics. Obama isn't any
 different,
  and may actually be among the worst of them.  Look, he's offered a
 cabinet
  to Rahm f--- them Emanual.
 
  I don't blame people for wanting to kick the Republicans to the curb;
 it's
  just unfortunate that they've marred the values I stand for but which
 they
  didn't actually uphold.  If you look around the world and at our own
  history, it should be pretty obvious that government and bureacracy
 can't
  fix your life.  The best thing it can do is provide for defense and
 equal
  opportunity then get out of your way.
 
  Do you actually trust the government to run more programs and in anyway
 make
  decisions for you with the track record they have? Deficit, Iraq war
  pre-surge, Afghanistan right now, social security, welfare, healthcare
 laws
  and regulation, 8000 pages of tax code (wtf?), bridge to nowhere,
  subsidizing wooden arrows in a bank bail out bill, the bank bail out
  itself.. seriously?
 
  For the liberals, congratulations for the most liberal admin and
 congress in
  us history. Good luck with that. For the neo-cons, thanks, appreciate it
  (not).  For the conservatives, like myself, this will bring clarity.
 That is
  a good thing.
 
  In the end, this is still America. I, for one, am still proud to be an
  American and love this country for things like election. It is a major
  political shift, and it is a peacful one.
 
  Now, lemme try that gmail mute thing again.
 
  -j
 


 Good post. I agree with most of what you said. I did not like either
 candidate, but being forced to take part in a two party system, I had to
 pick which one I thought was better for the country, and I will not lie and
 say my Bible had nothing to do with it. Some of Obama's ideas are fine. Same
 with Mccain. Some of them are really quite scary! Same with Mccain. None of
 which is anything Bush wouldn't or hasn't already done himself.

 Nonetheless, the media ran out Ron Paul so he never had a chance. It's
 unfortunate, but this is the mess we are stuck with.
 I will quote you because I think you said it well...
  In the end, this is still America. I, for one, am still proud to be an
  American and love this country for things like election. It is a major
  political shift, and it is a peacful one

 nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 ditto.

 I have no television.
 I despise Sean and Rush because they are just as elitist and just as
 extreme but in the opposite direction as any of the air america people. I
 don't care for any of them.

 NPR tends to be okay, but a little more left than I care for. I balance it
 with tons of internet reporting, from all sides.
 I don't care for a two party system that we have. I prefer a popular vote,
 where we have more choice.

 Yet I still see the writing on the wall that so many others seem to be
 blinded about.

 nathan
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Josef Lowder

The best quote I've seen in this entire discussion was this:

It's unfortunate, but this is the mess we are stuck with.

I was very, very tempted to just write in Joe Arpaio's name.
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Thomas Cameron 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 keith smith wrote:
 
  Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly
  not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a
  lawsuit to determine this fact?

 Are you seriously this stupid?  Do you honestly think that if he were
 not eligible it would take some quack out of Pennsylvania to uncover it?
  Do you *really* think that neither the DNC nor the RNC would have
 vetted this?  Please!

  He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for the
  same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there was
  something to hide.  So did McCain.

 What records are you talking about?  The Univeristy of Chicago records
 on his nonprofit educational work?  Those records that he doesn't own or
 control?  Again, I call complete bullshit on this crap.

  I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were
  did he come from?

 This is GOP misdirection and fearmongering and you should be ashamed of
 yourself for falling for it!  He was born in Hawaii.  His history is
 well documented.

   What about that church were the pastor who preached
  hate not reconstruction.

 The church that he resigned from?  The statements that Obama disavowed?
  Try again, sparky.

   Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.

 Show me anything other than that ridiculous stretch about Ayers (who has
 never actually been charged with a crime), which has been shown to be
 nothing other than them moving in the same circles, not palling around
 as Palin said.  Fearmongering and deception again.

 In this vein, I guess McCain is a suspect because G. Gordon Liddy - a
 *convicted felon* - raised funds for him and invited McCain into his
 home!  Bah!

He has an
  illegal alien aunt.

 And?  He didn't even know that she was illegal.  Apparently she is a
 relative which he didn't even meet until he was an adult, and he was
 unaware that she was illegal.  yawn

   What else do we not know about?

 Probably tons of stuff that, taken out of context like the rest of this
 Republican hate, could be misconstrued as scary.  Anything substantive?
  Incredibly doubtful, especially after the Republican hate machine has
 had almost two years to assassinate his character and failed.

  What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been happy
  with America...

 Obviously an unfortunate quote, but again horribly over-sensationalized.

   I've always been proud of this country that I have
  served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.  What
  has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?

 Um, he's done community advocacy work, taught Constitutional law (unlike
 Bush who has done much to erode Constitutional protections), practiced
 civil rights law, served in the Illinois senate, served in the US senate
 and is now the President-elect of the United States.  Yeah, he's served.

  What little we know about him scares me.

 What you *should* know but instead choose to ignore scares me.

  I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the
  bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less
  scary.

 I disagree.  McCain is Bush's lapdog, and would have led more of the
 same pandering to and lining the pockets of the biggest bribers
 ^H^H^H^H^H campaign contributors.  He'd have continued the assault on
 civil liberties.  He wants to continue to kill off American boys
 prosecuting a war we waged on a sovereign nation based on lies.  That
 scares me far worse than having a Constitutional scholar in office.

 Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread farli

Maybe it is time to stop all the name calling and give the man a chance, 
just like PRESIDENT Bush got when he was first elected!  After all, 
arent the results all that matter?
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Re: We are screwed.

monkeys

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:38 PM, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 HA!

 From what I read on the internet, there is:

 - doubt about the moon landing
 - there are tacmars (tactical markers) on our street signs
 - linux users are only a bunch of kids who live in their parents basement
 - the earth is flat
 - the earth is hollow
 - lizard people from another dimension control everything
 - the Illuminati are +++ATH0  NO CARRIER

 - Original Message -
 From: keith smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 1:03:56 PM GMT -07:00 U.S. Mountain Time
 (Arizona)
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.


 Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly not
 even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a lawsuit to
 determine this fact?

 He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for the
 same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there was
 something to hide.  So did McCain.

 I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were did
 he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached hate not
 reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has an illegal
 alien aunt.  What else do we not know about?

 What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been happy
 with America...  I've always been proud of this country that I have served
 on active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.  What has he
 done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?

 What little we know about him scares me.

 I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the bailout
 nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less scary.

 
 Keith Smith




 --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM

 keith smith wrote:
 
  A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your
  business to help those who do not want to help themselves.

 BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and
 you should know better.

 One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to
 try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.

 And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush
 and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then
 you're
 smoking crack.

 Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that the
 *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than
 $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.

 The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me got
 sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had McCain
 run his campaign the way he delivered his speech last night, things
 would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the
 advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business as
 usual.

 You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.

 Thomas
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 --
 I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 --Darth Vader
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Re: We are screwed.

The Democrats of then are not like the Democrats of today. As demonstrated
by the opinion that we need to vote out of self-preservation not country
preservation.

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Josh Andler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I find the irony in quoting a Democrat when trying to defend Republicans
 to be quite amusing. :P

 mike havens wrote:
  Self interest? Whatever happened to, Ask not what your country can do
  for you; but for what you can do for your country,  and to the
  STATESMAN mindset rathedr than to the politician mindset.
 
  On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  and I note the irony of the OP, like Joe the Plumber, that allowed
  themselves to get sucked into the cultural wars promulgated by the
  Republican party and vote against their own self-interests that have
  them under employed for nearly a decade.
 
  America has a very
  curious political
  discourse.
 
 
  Craig
 
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-- 
:-)~MIKE~(-:
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Judd Pickell

A lot has been bandied around on this list in regards to the election.
Regardless of which side you are for, and I am republican, one side lost,
one side one. We have been asked to set aside the differences and work
towards a better America. While my side lost, it will not change me working
and providing for my family. I will still support the American dream by
doing what it is that I want to do with my life and try to pursue happiness.
No matter how much I disagree with the president-elect and his standings. We
can all get along with people we disagree with, we all do it everyday in our
lives I am guessing.

However, you must give us (the Republican) side some credit. Unlike the
Hollywood libs that cried, I will move out of the country if Kerry is not
elected. We sat back, voiced our opinions in the venues available, and
debated the issues. No one has ever said we would leave, or posted that we
should divide the country into blue and red pieces (anyone remember the How
to Divide America image?). However, the other side of the aisle can not say
the same. Although to be fair, that all happened when they were behind in
the last presidential election.

The only thing that I take a serious issue with in the post campaign
coverage, and which has been repeated by posts here, is the concept of an
overwhelming victory. This country is divided, for better or worse. A loss
as close as 4% does not make the election a overwhelming, or a majority
victory. When Kerry lost by 2%, I saw the worst slanderous, malicious press;
and it was very disappointing. You can take heart that we on the R side of
the board will not stoop to that. We will disagree, we will continue to put
our points out there. It would be great if the country came together and
acted as one, but the two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.

I am American who is proud that the system once again worked. I am proud
that we get to voice our differences of opinion. I am proud that not
everyone agrees with me or those I chose to stand with. I am proud they have
the right and the freedom to do so. I plan to hopefully change the results
of this election at the next election, but only time will tell. A lot can
happen in four years.

Sincerely,
Judd Pickell

I support America, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
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Re: We are screwed.

Jason Hayes wrote:
 On Wednesday 05 November 2008 11:50:39 Thomas Cameron wrote:
 keith smith wrote:
 A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your
 business to help those who do not want to help themselves.
 BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and
 you should know better.

 One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to
 try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.
 
 Actually, Keith is correct. Obama and many others in our government do 
 advocate socialist policies. By that I mean that they advocate growing the 
 government's ownership and/or ability to control the means of production in 
 our society. They also advocate the creation of a more egalitarian society, 
 in which wealth is distributed evenly throughout. (Definitions of egalitarian 
 and evenly will vary.)
 
 You all heard the spread the wealth around quote and it was in no way taken 
 out of context. That comment was advocating socialism and blustering won't 
 make it any less so. If you support the notion, man up and admit it. Don't 
 back away from it and try to equivocate on the definition of the word.
 
 And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush
 and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then you're
 smoking crack.
 
 You see, you do understand the meaning of the term. So I am not sure why 
 you're not willing to apply it evenly across both parties.

The reason for my using quotes was that I do not believe that Obama is 
any more socialist than Bush.  Which is to say, not at all *by the 
definition* of the smear campaign.  The US is certainly socialist in 
many ways.  We have socialized education.  Arguably, we have socialized 
medicine when you take into account that indigent folks still get 
medical care at the taxpayers' expense.  But in the ooh, socialism is 
from those pinko Commie bastards context that the Republicans are 
using, no, Obama's not socialist.

Is he trying to make it more fair, so that the fat cats and 
megacorporations pay their fair share?  I believe so.  Is that 
socialist?  Nope.  It's fair.

 What Bush and Paulsen (and McCain and Obama and every other member of the 
 Congress that voted for the bailout package) advocated was, very clearly, 
 socialist. They were trying to, and did to a large extent, nationalize our 
 banking system.

In the true meaning of the word, yeah, I absolutely agree.  But again, I 
am referring to the Republican's pinko Commie boogeyman use.

 That is socialist, by definition. Just because Bush advocates it and he 
 happens 
 to have an R beside his name doesn't make it a free-market option by a long 
 shot.
 
 Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.
 
 Again, you do appear to understand the meaning of the term. So now we can all 
 just admit that they both advocate socialist policies. Obama is just further 
 along the scale than Bush is.
 
 And the reality is that the
 *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than
 $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.
 
 For those who missed the repeated updates on that particular promise from 
 Obama. It started at $300K/yr. Then it moved to $250K, then $200K, then $150K 
 (Biden), then $120K (Gov Richardson NM).
 
 During the primaries, Obama referred to the those who make more than $97,000 
 as the top earners. Additionally, Obama has voted to raise taxes on anyone 
 making more than $42,000.

Holy out of context, Batman! 
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_whoppers_of_2008_--_the_sequel.html 
pretty much flays that $42,000 argument, it is in reference to one bill, 
NOT the upper class making $200,000 or more per year.  In that respect, 
you are correct, I was wrong.  It is $200,000 per year, not $250,000. 
Either way, the vast majority of us will not feel any pinch.

 You can make the argument that Richardson isn't in Obama's inner circle if 
 you 
 want. However, the progression was clear. When he had a chance, he reduced 
 the 
 number that made you rich in his eyes regularly. And, like it or not, there 
 are a lot of small business owners that gross more than $42,000, $97,000, 
 $120,000, or $150,000 a year. 

Apples and oranges again, congrats.  The $2K number was a bill that was 
never passed.  Also, again according to 
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html, a 
single person making $42,000 would have seen a $15 per year increase in 
taxes.  Hardly the back-breaker the Republicans make it out to be.

More deception.  Nice.

 Put more simply, there's no way that Obama can implement his more than $1 
 trillion in spending increases -- over and above Bush's massive spending 
 increases -- and not increase taxes.

Well, unless maybe we stop prosecuting this immoral war in Iraq and stop 
blowing obscene amounts of money there.

Lies and half-truths don't score any points with me.  There is a lot of 
context and history that gets ignored,

Re: We are screwed.

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:45 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:

  You can make the argument that Richardson isn't in Obama's inner circle if 
  you 
  want. However, the progression was clear. When he had a chance, he reduced 
  the 
  number that made you rich in his eyes regularly. And, like it or not, 
  there 
  are a lot of small business owners that gross more than $42,000, $97,000, 
  $120,000, or $150,000 a year. 
 
 Apples and oranges again, congrats.  The $2K number was a bill that was 
 never passed.  Also, again according to 
 http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html, a 
 single person making $42,000 would have seen a $15 per year increase in 
 taxes.  Hardly the back-breaker the Republicans make it out to be.
 
 More deception.  Nice.
 
  Put more simply, there's no way that Obama can implement his more than $1 
  trillion in spending increases -- over and above Bush's massive spending 
  increases -- and not increase taxes.
 
 Well, unless maybe we stop prosecuting this immoral war in Iraq and stop 
 blowing obscene amounts of money there.
 
 Lies and half-truths don't score any points with me.  There is a lot of 
 context and history that gets ignored, admittedly by both sides.  My 
 point here is that continuing to propagate this misinformation is wrong.

the problem here is that you are not going to change his mind on this
because this information has been readily available for him and anyone
else who cared to actually do a fact check on this information. This is
why 23% of the Republicans in Texas believe that Obama is a Muslim.

The election settled this argument effectively and unfortunately, you
cannot make someone believe what they refuse to believe.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Jason Hayes

On Wednesday 05 November 2008 14:06:58 Craig White wrote:
 for those that missed it...the election was yesterday and the American
 public overwhelmingly rejected the mis-characterizations that you seem
 to feel necessary to repeat above.

 you have joined the world of irrelevant - at least until the next voting
 cycle - I hope you enjoy your new found status.

 Here's a hint...repeating mis-characterizations endlessly does not ever
 make them true.

 Craig

I use Obama and Biden's own words and you label that a mis-characterization? 
Interesting.

Also interesting that you can so blithely characterize the votes of over 56 
million Americans as irrelevant. That goes well beyond hubris. 

Lastly, there's more of that same, let's join the team and come in for the 
big win  spirit I referred to in my last email. Disagree with me and you're 
irrelevant, you mis-characterize, and on and on and on. Is this how you work 
together to promote a unified country? 

-- 
Jason Hayes

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Eric Cope

I didn't ask about his social agenda. You talk about marginal this and
marginal that and that he couldn't stick to a libertarian agenda. So, please
enlighten us. From my point of view, he nailed the libertarian ticket. You
seem to disagree and I am very interested in your viewpoint.
Eric

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Look at his social agenda

 Craig

 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 14:01 -0700, Eric Cope wrote:
  Craig,
  I am interested in your interpretation of a libertarian platform and
  Paul's platform.
  Eric
 
  On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:31 -0700, Nathan wrote:
   On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't
  argue that a 3rd
party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
  infinitesimally
small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for
  lesser of two evils
has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a
  Congress with a
19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine
  our own values and
vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone
  else from getting
in office. Its not a horse race.
   
Eric
   
  
   I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul
  did not win.
   Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to
  give Paul an equal chance...
 
  
  I think that a parliamentary system allows for other voices
  and more
  participation but that is not what we have in the US. Too bad
  for us I
  think because I rather admire the notion in England of 'loyal
  opposition' - a concept that is foreign to the political
  system here.
 
  I do think that across the board, the political system does
  not
  typically encourage the best/brightest and I don't recall an
  election
  where one of the presidential choices was my ideal candidate
  and I don't
  see that changing any time soon, either.
 
  Ron Paul is a marginal voice with a marginal message and his
  adherents
  were so over the top this cycle that his message couldn't be
  considered
  reasonable. He is incapable of sticking to a libertarian
  agenda.
 
  Craig
 
 
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Jason Hayes

On Wednesday 05 November 2008 14:45:28 Thomas Cameron wrote: a bunch of stuff

Sorry for getting involved in all of this. The complaints make it clear the 
discussion needs to end or be taken off of the list.

-- 
Jason Hayes

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Re: We are screwed.

Judd Pickell wrote:
 ...You can take heart that 
 we on the R side of the board will not stoop to that.

When McCain mentioned Obama's name in his concession speech, the 
Republican crowd booed.

When Obama mentioned McCain's name in his victory speech, the Democrats 
applauded.

As always.
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Re: We are screwed.



 Plaintiff Philip J. Berg alleged that Defendant Barack Obama is not
eligible for the Office of the President because Obama lost his U.S.
citizenship when his mother married an Indonesian citizen and
naturalized in Indonesia. Plaintiff further alleged that Obama followed
her naturalization and failed to take an oath of allegiance when he
turned 18 years old to regain his U.S. citizenship status. 
  
The case was dismissed on October 24, 2008.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-paedce/case_no-2:2008cv04083/case_id-281573/

Surrick
dismissed the case, finding that Berg lacked standing to bring the suit
because he did not face direct harm even if the allegations were true.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/10/federal-judge-dismisses-obama.php

I find this interesting the Obama would not just provide proof that he 
qualifies to be president.   

I feel we all have the right to know.  What does he have to hide.

So again who is this guy?  If he is going to be my president I have a right to 
know!!

You say His history is well documented..  Please provide proof.

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the Trinity 
United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side, has a long history of what 
even Obama's campaign aides concede is inflammatory rhetoric, including the 
assertion that the United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own 
terrorism.

Obama only left the church after he was exposed.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 

William Ayers and his connections to Barack Obama
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/8/22/obama-needs-to-explain-his-ties-to-william-ayers.html

G. Gordon Liddy is no William Ayers.  I do not agree with what Liddy did either.

You say And?  He didn't even know that she was illegal.  Might be true,
might not be.  We will never know.

His wife said this is the first time I have been
happy with America  Yes it is quoted.  Maybe she had just 
come from church and one of those let's rebuild America sermons 
that Reverend Wright was good a preaching.

One thing I have learned in my life when there is so many questions
something has to be going on.

Why would someone that wants to pull America together sit in a church
that spews hate??
 
I'm against the war also.

Let me say it again.  I voted for McCain because Obama scares me.
I've provided many things that should cause you to take
pause.

I found this and you have to admit it does make you think

A privileged African-American, who has not shared the black American experience
By birth, blood and training, a Muslim, who has been a member of a 
Black-African church for 20 years
A socialist whose politics are rooted in Marx and whose tactics were conceived 
by Alinsky
A master at shaping his own mythology and completely unqualified to be 
Commander in Chief 
http://www.theobamafile.com/



Keith Smith



--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 2:07 PM

keith smith wrote:
 
 Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly 
 not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a 
 lawsuit to determine this fact?

Are you seriously this stupid?  Do you honestly think that if he were 
not eligible it would take some quack out of Pennsylvania to uncover it? 
  Do you *really* think that neither the DNC nor the RNC would have 
vetted this?  Please!

 He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for the 
 same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there was 
 something to hide.  So did McCain.

What records are you talking about?  The Univeristy of Chicago records 
on his nonprofit educational work?  Those records that he doesn't own or 
control?  Again, I call complete bullshit on this crap.

 I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were 
 did he come from?  

This is GOP misdirection and fearmongering and you should be ashamed of 
yourself for falling for it!  He was born in Hawaii.  His history is 
well documented.

  What about that church were the pastor who preached
 hate not reconstruction.  

The church that he resigned from?  The statements that Obama disavowed? 
  Try again, sparky.

  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.

Show me anything other than that ridiculous stretch about Ayers (who has 
never actually been charged with a crime), which has been shown to be 
nothing other than them moving in the same circles, not palling
around 
as Palin said.  Fearmongering and deception again.

In this vein, I guess McCain is a suspect because G. Gordon Liddy - a 
*convicted felon* - raised funds for him and invited McCain into his 
home!  Bah!

   He has an
 illegal alien aunt.  

And?  He didn't even know that she was illegal.  Apparently

Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Cat Chapman

Jesus Christ, I thought Linux users were smarter than this... can't we
all just get along? Flamewars lead to nowhere.

-Cat

P.S. I'm not insulting anyone in particular, I just chose to reply to
this particular email at random.

P.P.S. Obama/Nader ftw! :)

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 14:10 -0700, Craig White wrote:
 Look at his social agenda
 
 Craig
 
 On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 14:01 -0700, Eric Cope wrote:
  Craig,
  I am interested in your interpretation of a libertarian platform and
  Paul's platform.
  Eric
  
  On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 13:31 -0700, Nathan wrote:
   On Wednesday 05 November 2008 13:24:30 you wrote:
Nobody was forced to take part in a 2-party system. Don't
  argue that a 3rd
party candidate is a waste of vote. Face it, your vote is
  infinitesimally
small, in fact 1 in a million. The idea of voting for
  lesser of two evils
has delivered a president with a 30% approval rating and a
  Congress with a
19% approval rating. We, as a people, need to determine
  our own values and
vote based on these values, not trying to prevent someone
  else from getting
in office. Its not a horse race.
   
Eric
   
  
   I agree it's not a horse race. You're right. I'm sorry Paul
  did not win.
   Maybe the fairness doctrine would have required the media to
  give Paul an equal chance...
  
  
  I think that a parliamentary system allows for other voices
  and more
  participation but that is not what we have in the US. Too bad
  for us I
  think because I rather admire the notion in England of 'loyal
  opposition' - a concept that is foreign to the political
  system here.
  
  I do think that across the board, the political system does
  not
  typically encourage the best/brightest and I don't recall an
  election
  where one of the presidential choices was my ideal candidate
  and I don't
  see that changing any time soon, either.
  
  Ron Paul is a marginal voice with a marginal message and his
  adherents
  were so over the top this cycle that his message couldn't be
  considered
  reasonable. He is incapable of sticking to a libertarian
  agenda.
  
  Craig
  
  
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Re: We are screwed.


Everyone must be informed.  If you let our leadership do anything they want 
then you will be paying $700 billion for a wall street bailout.  Oh wait a 
minute, that already happened.  Shame on us for not stopping it.


Keith Smith



--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 2:10 PM

You almost had me until this statement.

'Cause everyone knows, if it's written on the Internet, it *must* be
true!

Open your eyes.  Listen to your hero's concession speech again.  The one 
where he said that Obama is an honorable man and we should *all* work 
together.

Quit spreading these lies and half-truths.  Quit fostering hate.  If 
you're *really* a patriot, then work to help make this a better, not a 
more divided nation.

keith smith wrote:
 
 I have no TV.  I do not know Sean and do not listen to Rush.  I do not 
 listen to talk radio either.
 
 All my questions come from the Internet's many sources.
 
 
 
 Keith Smith
 http://www.netcodeman.com/
 
 
 
 --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, farli /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
 From: farli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 1:11 PM
 
 Someone needs to watch something other than Fox and listen to someone 
 other than Sean and Rush!
 
 The
  facts are out there, keith - if you choose to look
 
 
 keith smith wrote:
  
  Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is
reportedly 
  not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there
is a 
  lawsuit to determine this fact?
  
  He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush
for the 
  same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there
was 
  something to hide.  So did McCain.
  
  I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama? 
Were 
  did he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who
preached 
  hate not reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He
has an 
  illegal alien aunt.  What else do we not know about? 
  
  What about his wife saying this is the first time I
have been
 happy 
  with America...  I've always been proud of this
  country that I
 have 
  served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local government.
 What 
  has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?
  
  What little we know about him scares me.
  
  I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the

  bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much
less 
  scary.
  
  
  Keith Smith
  http://www.netcodeman.com/
  
  
  
  --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron
 /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* 
  wrote:
  
  From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: We are screwed.
  To: Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
  Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM
  
  keith smith
   wrote:
 
   
   A president with a socialist view is much better?  He
wants to
 tax your 
   business to help those who do not want to help
themselves.
  
  BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is
hogwash
 and 
  you should know better.
  
  One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low
enough to 
  try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.
  
  And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks
like Bush
 
  and Company did, even partially, is not a
socialist move
 then
  you're 
  smoking crack.
  
  Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality
is that
 the 
  *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more
than 
  $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.
  
  The GOP
  lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me
 got 
  sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're
spewing.  Had
 McCain 
  run his campaign
   the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
  would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to
the 
  advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP
business
 as 
  usual.
  
  You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue
to lose.
  
  Thomas
  ---
  PLUG-discuss mailing list -
PLUG-discuss

Re: ****Re: We are screwed.

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:17 -0800, keith smith wrote:

I find this interesting the Obama would not just provide proof
that he qualifies to be president.
I feel we all have the right to know. What does he have to hide.
So again who is this guy? If he is going to be my president I have a
right to know!!
You say His history is well documented.. Please provide proof.

the truth is out there if you really wanted to see it

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iw1At-4G1xuE50oXVFRlBPfR3dqgD945OLU00

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the
Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side, has a long
history of what even Obama's campaign aides concede is inflammatory
rhetoric, including the assertion that the United States brought on
the 9/11 attacks with its own terrorism.

Obama only left the church after he was exposed.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788

Religion is an ugly topic for this list. Sarah Palin was blessed to ward
off witches. McCain was endorsed by Rev. Hagee who is as off the wall as
they come. Hagee called Hurricane Katrina God's punishment for the sin
practiced in New Orleans and the Holocaust justified because the Jews
didn't accept Jesus Christ.

Pox on all of their houses

William Ayers and his connections to Barack Obama
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/8/22/obama-needs-to-explain-his-ties-to-william-ayers.html

the whole Ayers topic is absurd to it's core...
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/tny/2008/11/mr-ayerss-neighborhood.html

His wife said this is the first time I have been
happy with America Yes it is quoted. Maybe she had just
come from church and one of those let's rebuild America sermons
that Reverend Wright was good a preaching.

you and I will never know what it was like to grow up black in America.

A privileged African-American, who has not shared the black American
experience
By birth, blood and training, a Muslim, who has been a member of a
Black-African church for 20 years
A socialist whose politics are rooted in Marx and whose tactics were
conceived by Alinsky
A master at shaping his own mythology and completely unqualified to be
Commander in Chief
http://www.theobamafile.com/

you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for repeating such idiotic bile on
this list.

Slander by insinuation, association and spread fear, uncertainty and doubt
without even considering that the majority of the newspapers in this country
endorsed Barack Obama for president.

The funny thing is, I'll bet you call yourself a forgiving Christian. If
you call yourself a Christian, I will call you a fraud.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Dan Lund

Exactly.. fruitless discussion that beckons illusionary bipartisan bickering.
This has no place here.  There may be no rules about it, but there is
self control.
Otherwise there would need to be rules, which goes against being free.
Freedom comes at a price, no matter your partisan standing.

Thanks,
Dan Lund

There is only one good, namely knowledge, and only one evil, namely
ignorance.
--Socrates



On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Cat Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jesus Christ, I thought Linux users were smarter than this... can't we
 all just get along? Flamewars lead to nowhere.
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RE: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread jaraeth

I for one am very tempted to unsubscribe from this list until this all goes 
away.  I'm a member for useful linux related knowledge, not political and 
religious debate...  Unless talking about SCO and the church of slackware.

Regards,

Tony E.



-Original Message-
From: Dan Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: November 05, 2008 5:03 PM
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Subject: Re: We are screwed.

Exactly.. fruitless discussion that beckons illusionary bipartisan bickering.
This has no place here.  There may be no rules about it, but there is
self control.
Otherwise there would need to be rules, which goes against being free.
Freedom comes at a price, no matter your partisan standing.

Thanks,
Dan Lund

There is only one good, namely knowledge, and only one evil, namely
ignorance.
--Socrates



On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Cat Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jesus Christ, I thought Linux users were smarter than this... can't we
 all just get along? Flamewars lead to nowhere.
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Re: We are screwed.


Excellent post!



Keith Smith




--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Judd Pickell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Judd Pickell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 2:31 PM

A lot has been bandied around on this list in regards to the election. 
Regardless of which side you are for, and I am republican, one side lost, one 
side one. We have been asked to set aside the differences and work towards a 
better America. While my side lost, it will not change me working and providing 
for my family. I will still support the American dream by doing what it is that 
I want to do with my life and try to pursue happiness. No matter how much I 
disagree with the president-elect and his standings. We can all get along with 
people we disagree with, we all do it everyday in our lives I am guessing.


However, you must give us (the Republican) side some credit. Unlike the 
Hollywood libs that cried, I will move out of the country if Kerry is not 
elected. We sat back, voiced our opinions in the venues available, and debated 
the issues. No one has ever said we would leave, or posted that we should 
divide the country into blue and red pieces (anyone remember the How to Divide 
America image?). However, the other side of the aisle can not say the same. 
Although to be fair, that all happened when they were behind in the last 
presidential election. 


The only thing that I take a serious issue with in the post campaign coverage, 
and which has been repeated by posts here, is the concept of an overwhelming 
victory. This country is divided, for better or worse. A loss as close as 4% 
does not make the election a overwhelming, or a majority victory. When Kerry 
lost by 2%, I saw the worst slanderous, malicious press; and it was very 
disappointing. You can take heart that we on the R side of the board will not 
stoop to that. We will disagree, we will continue to put our points out there. 
It would be great if the country came together and acted as one, but the two 
sides are diametrically opposed to each other. 


I am American who is proud that the system once again worked. I am proud that 
we get to voice our differences of opinion. I am proud that not everyone agrees 
with me or those I chose to stand with. I am proud they have the right and the 
freedom to do so. I plan to hopefully change the results of this election at 
the next election, but only time will tell. A lot can happen in four years.


Sincerely,
Judd Pickell

I support America, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.


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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Nathan

On Wednesday 05 November 2008 16:12:42 Thomas Cameron wrote:
 Judd Pickell wrote:
  ...You can take heart that 
  we on the R side of the board will not stoop to that.
 
 When McCain mentioned Obama's name in his concession speech, the 
 Republican crowd booed.
 
 When Obama mentioned McCain's name in his victory speech, the Democrats 
 applauded.
 
 As always.
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Ignorance is bliss. 

When Kerry mentioned Bush's name the democrats booed.

So what is your point? 'As Always'

wrong wrong wrong... yeah, I agree.
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Re: We are screwed.

Craig,

You said This is why 23% of the Republicans in 
Texas believe that Obama is a Muslim.

Apparently he was raise Muslim ---  
http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaEducation.htm

There seems to be a lot more to this guy than anyone is willing to see or look 
at, question, or talk about.

Again where did this guy come from?  He was raised in a foreign country by a 
Muslim step father in Indonesian.  

I guess all he had to say was We need change!.

I've been saying that for years.

-
Keith Smith




--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 3:00 PM

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:45 -0600, Thomas Cameron wrote:

  You can make the argument that Richardson isn't in Obama's
inner circle if you 
  want. However, the progression was clear. When he had a chance, he
reduced the 
  number that made you rich in his eyes regularly. And,
like it or not, there 
  are a lot of small business owners that gross more than $42,000,
$97,000, 
  $120,000, or $150,000 a year. 
 
 Apples and oranges again, congrats.  The $2K number was a bill that was 
 never passed.  Also, again according to 
 http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html, a 
 single person making $42,000 would have seen a $15 per year increase in 
 taxes.  Hardly the back-breaker the Republicans make it out to be.
 
 More deception.  Nice.
 
  Put more simply, there's no way that Obama can implement his more
than $1 
  trillion in spending increases -- over and above Bush's massive
spending 
  increases -- and not increase taxes.
 
 Well, unless maybe we stop prosecuting this immoral war in Iraq and stop 
 blowing obscene amounts of money there.
 
 Lies and half-truths don't score any points with me.  There is a lot
of 
 context and history that gets ignored, admittedly by both sides.  My 
 point here is that continuing to propagate this misinformation is wrong.

the problem here is that you are not going to change his mind on this
because this information has been readily available for him and anyone
else who cared to actually do a fact check on this information. This is
why 23% of the Republicans in Texas believe that Obama is a Muslim.

The election settled this argument effectively and unfortunately, you
cannot make someone believe what they refuse to believe.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.


Just because people voted for something does not make it right or so.  It only 
means a bunch of people voted for something.



Keith Smith




--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: We are screwed.
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 3:30 PM

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:01 -0700, Jason Hayes wrote:
 On Wednesday 05 November 2008 14:06:58 Craig White wrote:
  for those that missed it...the election was yesterday and the
American
  public overwhelmingly rejected the mis-characterizations that you
seem
  to feel necessary to repeat above.
 
  you have joined the world of irrelevant - at least until the next
voting
  cycle - I hope you enjoy your new found status.
 
  Here's a hint...repeating mis-characterizations endlessly does
not ever
  make them true.
 
  Craig
 
 I use Obama and Biden's own words and you label that a
mis-characterization? 
 Interesting.
 
 Also interesting that you can so blithely characterize the votes of over
56 
 million Americans as irrelevant. That goes well beyond hubris.

 
 Lastly, there's more of that same, let's join the team and
come in for the 
 big win  spirit I referred to in my last email. Disagree with me and
you're 
 irrelevant, you mis-characterize, and on and on and on. Is this how you
work 
 together to promote a unified country? 

So you think that you can bait me into defending their statements which
you take out of their context and that this debate which was settled at
the ballot box would somehow be useful here on the list? I think not.
The American public had a chance to evaluate your characterizations and
voted overwhelmingly against your characterizations...matter is settled.

56 million voters is clearly not irrelevant but the fact that 63 million
+ votes out performed them in an abundance of states in terms of the
electoral votes clinched the matter...it's not about hubris and
certainly not about my hubris.

As for 'working together to promote a unified country' - I replied to a
specific message that contained nothing like that. You might have snuck
those sentiments into a message that I didn't reply to but I only saw
and replied to what I saw...which was a repeat of the endless
mis-characterizations that dominated what passed as discourse for the
side that lost yesterday.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread irb

* Quoth [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), on Wed, 2008.11.05, at 17:23 
-0700:
 I for one am very tempted to unsubscribe from this list until this all
 goes away.  I'm a member for useful linux related knowledge, not
 political and religious debate...  Unless talking about SCO and the
 church of slackware.

I agree. I know of at least one newcomer to this list who very nearly
did the same thing (and may yet). This has gotten absurd and incendiary
and not worth my time.

/i.


pgpJZQKK0cw08.pgp
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread wayne

In the end, those who voted for Obama will get exactly what they deserve 
as a result.   I'm just sorry I too will get what YOU deserved.


keith smith wrote:

 Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly 
 not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a 
 lawsuit to determine this fact?

 He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for 
 the same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there 
 was something to hide.  So did McCain.

 I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were 
 did he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached 
 hate not reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has 
 an illegal alien aunt.  What else do we not know about? 

 What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been 
 happy with America...  I've always been proud of this country that I 
 have served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local 
 government.  What has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?

 What little we know about him scares me.

 I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the 
 bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less 
 scary.

 
 Keith Smith




 --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron 
 /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: We are screwed.
 To: Main PLUG discussion list
 plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM

 keith smith
  wrote:
  
  A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax your 
  business to help those who do not want to help themselves.

 BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and 
 you should know better.

 One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to 
 try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.

 And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush 
 and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then
 you're 
 smoking crack.

 Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that the 
 *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
 $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.

 The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me got 
 sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had McCain 
 run his campaign
  the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
 would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
 advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business as 
 usual.

 You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.

 Thomas
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Re: We are screwed.

2008-11-05 Thread Cat Chapman

Can we please just STFU about this? We get it - we have disagreements.
Do you know what flaming each other will do? NOTHING. The election is
over. Yay for those who voted for him, too bad for those who didn't.

Can we stop now?

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 17:59 -0700, wayne wrote:
 In the end, those who voted for Obama will get exactly what they deserve 
 as a result.   I'm just sorry I too will get what YOU deserved.
 
 
 keith smith wrote:
 
  Interesting!  You voted for someone with no record.  Who is reportedly 
  not even legally able to run for president.  Did you know there is a 
  lawsuit to determine this fact?
 
  He had his records sealed?  Why?  I am also am at odds with Bush for 
  the same thing.  Bush hid his military service records because there 
  was something to hide.  So did McCain.
 
  I voted for McCain because I am afraid of Obama!  Who is Obama?  Were 
  did he come from?  What about that church were the pastor who preached 
  hate not reconstruction.  Obama suposedly has terrorist ties.  He has 
  an illegal alien aunt.  What else do we not know about? 
 
  What about his wife saying this is the first time I have been 
  happy with America...  I've always been proud of this country that I 
  have served on active duty, reserve duty, and within local 
  government.  What has he done?  Did he serve?  Has he sacrificed?
 
  What little we know about him scares me.
 
  I do not like what is going on in America.  I did not support the 
  bailout nor do I think it will work.  I just think McCain is much less 
  scary.
 
  
  Keith Smith
 
 
 
 
  --- On *Wed, 11/5/08, Thomas Cameron 
  /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
  From: Thomas Cameron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: We are screwed.
  To: Main PLUG discussion list
  plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
  Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 11:50 AM
 
  keith smith
   wrote:
   
   A president with a socialist view is much better?  He wants to tax 
  your 
   business to help those who do not want to help themselves.
 
  BWAHAHAH!  Are you serious?  I mean, *really* - this is hogwash and 
  you should know better.
 
  One misquote != socialist agenda, and anyone who stoops low enough to 
  try to twist it that way is either a liar or an idiot.
 
  And if you think for one second that nationalizing the banks like Bush 
  and Company did, even partially, is not a socialist move then
  you're 
  smoking crack.
 
  Obama is no more a Socialist than Bush is.  And the reality is that the 
  *vast* majority of small business owners do not make more than 
  $250K/year, so that argument is complete bullshit as well.
 
  The GOP lost so badly this year precisely because moderates like me got 
  sick of the lies and innuendo like the crap you're spewing.  Had McCain 
  run his campaign
   the way he delivered his speech last night, things 
  would very likely  have been different.  Instead, he caved to the 
  advisers who told him to smear and lie.  In other words, GOP business 
  as 
  usual.
 
  You lost because of the crap you spew.  Stop it or continue to lose.
 
  Thomas
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Re: ****Re: We are screwed.

Craig,

It is obvious you are not interested in the truth. There is 
something amiss with Obama.  I do not know exactly what.

I believe everything I provided is the truth or brings into 
question what we have been told about our future leader.

I'll tell you this.  I have a 1st amendment right to state my 
opinion as do you.  I served my country on active duty with the 
Marine Corps and later added 6 plus years in the National Guard. 
I spent 9 years a uniformed police officer patrolling the 
streets of the community I lived in.  I have given to my 
country, state and city.

I went to school on the GI Bill, during most of the time working 
mid-night shift as a police officer.

These experiences have shaped who I am today.

Forgiven?  I'm thinking you do not know what forgiven means.
It does not mean sin free.  It does not mean I am pure.
It does not mean I will never sin.  

It means that Jesus died for my sins and if I call on his
name in repentance he will forgive me.  He already paid the
wages of my sin.

Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God.  He paid the price.
It is a done deal.  All we have to do is call on the name 
of Jesus as ask for forgiveness.  As an added bonus he will 
let us dwell with him forever.  What a great gift.

If you have not accepted Jesus as your savior I invite
you to pray to Him and turn your life over to him and ask 
him to guide you to a Bible based faith filled church.

If you would like me to pray with you  
(or anyone would like me to pray with them) I would be honored.  
Contact me off list and I will provide my phone number.

And yes I am born again.  I have dedicated my life to Jesus for 
the past 10 years.  I read the Bible daily and believe God is 
in charge.  I've seen demon possessed people.  I've experienced 
God's miracles.  I've seen God answer prayers.  I know God is 
real.  The past two churches I attended were/are 
non-denominational and based on the Bible.  
How do I know?  Because I read the Bible and tested every last 
word they said.

Am I fallible?  Yes I am.  Am I a sinner? Yes I am.  How do I 
know?  I read the Bible and it tells me so.

Just because I question who Obama is does not mean I am not
saved by the blood of Jesus.  You cannot take that from me. 
How do I know?  I read the Bible and it tells me so.

As you can see I am proud to be a Christian and to be saved 
by the shed blood of my savior Jesus.

So who is this fellow Obama and why is he hiding his history 
from me?  What does he have to hide.

I asked the same question when 60 minutes announced that Bush 
was hiding his military records.  

I want to know why McCain's military records are sealed.  

What do these men have to hide.

You want to be my president then let me see your history.  
Otherwise step aside.

btw Hagee preaches the Bible.

I invite you to read the Bible and see if what he says cannot be 
explained by what what is in it.

Keith Smith


--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re: We are screwed.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list 
plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 4:43 PM

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:17 -0800, keith smith wrote:

 I find this interesting the Obama would not just provide proof 
 that he qualifies to be president.
 I feel we all have the right to know.  What does he have to hide.
 So again who is this guy?  If he is going to be my president I have a
right to know!!
 You say His history is well documented..  Please provide
proof.

the truth is out there if you really wanted to see it

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iw1At-4G1xuE50oXVFRlBPfR3dqgD945OLU00

 
 The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the
 Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side, has a long
 history of what even Obama's campaign aides concede is
inflammatory
 rhetoric, including the assertion that the United States brought on
 the 9/11 attacks with its own terrorism.
 
 Obama only left the church after he was exposed.
 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 

Religion is an ugly topic for this list. Sarah Palin was blessed to ward
off witches. McCain was endorsed by Rev. Hagee who is as off the wall as
they come. Hagee called Hurricane Katrina God's punishment for the sin
practiced in New Orleans and the Holocaust justified because the Jews
didn't accept Jesus Christ.

Pox on all of their houses

 William Ayers and his connections to Barack Obama

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/8/22/obama-needs-to-explain-his-ties-to-william-ayers.html

the whole Ayers topic is absurd to it's core...
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/tny/2008/11/mr-ayerss-neighborhood.html


 His wife said this is the first time I have been
 happy with America  Yes it is quoted.  Maybe she had just 
 come from church and one of those let's rebuild America
sermons 
 that Reverend Wright

Re: ****Re: We are screwed.



And

You say : ...you and I will never know what it was like to grow up black in 
America

Apparently either does Oboma since he grew up in a foreign country.

http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaEducation.htm - I've sent this to you 
several times.
And you say ...without even considering that the majority of 
the newspapers in this country endorsed Barack Obama for 
president.

Liberal news media endorsing a political candidate. 
As you and everyone knows the media does what the
media wants to do.  They act in their own interest.

They forget to report the whole truth.  That is why you
do know the truth about Obama.  They do not tell the whole 
truth. 

I'm a conservative why would I buy into a liberal media?


Keith Smith




--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Craig White [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re: We are screwed.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list 
plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 4:43 PM

On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 15:17 -0800, keith smith wrote:

 I find this interesting the Obama would not just provide proof 
 that he qualifies to be president.
 I feel we all have the right to know.  What does he have to hide.
 So again who is this guy?  If he is going to be my president I have a
right to know!!
 You say His history is well documented..  Please provide
proof.

the truth is out there if you really wanted to see it

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iw1At-4G1xuE50oXVFRlBPfR3dqgD945OLU00

 
 The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the
 Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side, has a long
 history of what even Obama's campaign aides concede is
inflammatory
 rhetoric, including the assertion that the United States brought on
 the 9/11 attacks with its own terrorism.
 
 Obama only left the church after he was exposed.
 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 

Religion is an ugly topic for this list. Sarah Palin was blessed to ward
off witches. McCain was endorsed by Rev. Hagee who is as off the wall as
they come. Hagee called Hurricane Katrina God's punishment for the sin
practiced in New Orleans and the Holocaust justified because the Jews
didn't accept Jesus Christ.

Pox on all of their houses

 William Ayers and his connections to Barack Obama

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/8/22/obama-needs-to-explain-his-ties-to-william-ayers.html

the whole Ayers topic is absurd to it's core...
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/tny/2008/11/mr-ayerss-neighborhood.html


 His wife said this is the first time I have been
 happy with America  Yes it is quoted.  Maybe she had just 
 come from church and one of those let's rebuild America
sermons 
 that Reverend Wright was good a preaching.

you and I will never know what it was like to grow up black in America.


 A privileged African-American, who has not shared the black American
experience
 By birth, blood and training, a Muslim, who has been a member of a
Black-African church for 20 years
 A socialist whose politics are rooted in Marx and whose tactics were
conceived by Alinsky
 A master at shaping his own mythology and completely unqualified to be
Commander in Chief 
 http://www.theobamafile.com/

you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for repeating such idiotic bile on
this list.

Slander by insinuation, association and spread fear, uncertainty and doubt
without even considering that the majority of the newspapers in this country
endorsed Barack Obama for president.

The funny thing is, I'll bet you call yourself a forgiving Christian. If
you call yourself a Christian, I will call you a fraud.

Craig

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Re: We are screwed.