Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Peter Reuterås]

On 1/22/07, Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Something that keeps annoying me. Minor, but recurring, and the fix is
> equally minor.
>
> When I search for a word, 9 times out of 10 I want only the groups
> PmWiki and Cookbook. CookbookV1, various profiles, Main, Site, PITS, the
> different translations just use up space before what I really want. I
> hate to think what it's like for someone just starting out. Go down the
> search page and the first title that looks right is from CookbookV1.
>
> So, my suggestion is a second search box up in the right that is limited
> to the most "authoritative" groups only.

Great idea!

/Peter

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[christian . ridderstrom]

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Peter Reuterås wrote:


On 1/22/07, Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Something that keeps annoying me. Minor, but recurring, and the fix is
equally minor.

When I search for a word, 9 times out of 10 I want only the groups
PmWiki and Cookbook. CookbookV1, various profiles, Main, Site, PITS, the
different translations just use up space before what I really want. I
hate to think what it's like for someone just starting out. Go down the
search page and the first title that looks right is from CookbookV1.

So, my suggestion is a second search box up in the right that is limited
to the most "authoritative" groups only.


Great idea!


I agree. It'd be nice if there was a radio button or similar next to the 
search box for something like:

(*) Search PmWiki help
( ) Search everywhere

/Christian

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[The Editor]

On 1/23/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Peter Reuterås wrote:
>
> > On 1/22/07, Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Something that keeps annoying me. Minor, but recurring, and the fix is
> >> equally minor.
> >>
> >> When I search for a word, 9 times out of 10 I want only the groups
> >> PmWiki and Cookbook. CookbookV1, various profiles, Main, Site, PITS, the
> >> different translations just use up space before what I really want. I
> >> hate to think what it's like for someone just starting out. Go down the
> >> search page and the first title that looks right is from CookbookV1.
> >>
> >> So, my suggestion is a second search box up in the right that is limited
> >> to the most "authoritative" groups only.
> >
> > Great idea!
>
> I agree. It'd be nice if there was a radio button or similar next to the
> search box for something like:
>(*) Search PmWiki help
>( ) Search everywhere


I've had the same frustration and would appreciate the shortcut.  But
in the meantime, remember you can always type "search phrase
group=pmwiki,cookbook" right into the searchbox and it will limit to
the group you want automatically.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[DaveG]

I love that idea, and have often missed results because they are way 
down the list of results.

How about taking that another step, and adding a mechanism to *order* 
the groups that are returned. Perhaps by if the pagelist specifies a 
groups then they are ordered first, followed by other groups in the 
normal order.

  ~ ~ Dave

Sandy wrote:
> Something that keeps annoying me. Minor, but recurring, and the fix is 
> equally minor.
> 
> When I search for a word, 9 times out of 10 I want only the groups 
> PmWiki and Cookbook. CookbookV1, various profiles, Main, Site, PITS, the 
> different translations just use up space before what I really want. I 
> hate to think what it's like for someone just starting out. Go down the 
> search page and the first title that looks right is from CookbookV1.
> 
> So, my suggestion is a second search box up in the right that is limited 
> to the most "authoritative" groups only.
> 
> Sandy
> 
> 
> ___
> pmwiki-users mailing list
> pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
> http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
> 

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 05:54:30PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
> How about taking that another step, and adding a mechanism to *order* 
> the groups that are returned. Perhaps by if the pagelist specifies a 
> groups then they are ordered first, followed by other groups in the 
> normal order.

Any suggestions or ideas for a syntax for such an option to pagelist?
Or should this be something I just hardcode into the pmwiki.org
configuration?

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[DaveG]

For groups, how about:
(:pagelist presort=group1,group2 :)

and pages:
(:pagelist presort=group1.page1,group2.page2 :)

I initially thought the page level was unecessary, but thinking about it 
maybe it's useful on a help page search to always include certain pages 
at the top of the results.

  ~ ~ Dave

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 05:54:30PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
>> How about taking that another step, and adding a mechanism to *order* 
>> the groups that are returned. Perhaps by if the pagelist specifies a 
>> groups then they are ordered first, followed by other groups in the 
>> normal order.
> 
> Any suggestions or ideas for a syntax for such an option to pagelist?
> Or should this be something I just hardcode into the pmwiki.org
> configuration?
> 
> Pm
> 

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:01:45PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
> For groups, how about:
>(:pagelist presort=group1,group2 :)
> 
> and pages:
>(:pagelist presort=group1.page1,group2.page2 :)
> 
> I initially thought the page level was unecessary, but thinking about it 
> maybe it's useful on a help page search to always include certain pages 
> at the top of the results.

Well, I was somewhat hoping to not limit this capability to
just groups and pagenames -- what if I wanted to set the output
sequence based on a page variable or page text variable?

For example, in PITS I might want to display PITS pages
sorted by the $:Category value such that all "Bug" pages
appear first, followed by "Feature", followed by "Documentation",
followed by everything else.

The current pagelist code makes it relatively easy to provide
this sort of capability in a local customization file (using
a custom order= parameter), but I was hoping to find a general
way to do it from markup.

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 08:13:22AM -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:01:45PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
> > For groups, how about:
> >(:pagelist presort=group1,group2 :)
> 
> Well, I was somewhat hoping to not limit this capability to
> just groups and pagenames -- what if I wanted to set the output
> sequence based on a page variable or page text variable?
> 
> For example, in PITS I might want to display PITS pages
> sorted by the $:Category value such that all "Bug" pages
> appear first, followed by "Feature", followed by "Documentation",
> followed by everything else.
> 
> The current pagelist code makes it relatively easy to provide
> this sort of capability in a local customization file (using
> a custom order= parameter), but I was hoping to find a general
> way to do it from markup.

Hmmm, perhaps we could put the desired ordering in parens 
or brackets after the item to be ordered?

(:pagelist order=$Group(PmWiki,Cookbook,PITS,*) :)
(:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation,*) :)

But then if someone wants to select only Bug/Feature/Documentation
(and display in that order), we get the unwieldy

(:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
  $:Category=Bug,Feature,Documentation :)

So, perhaps it's more appropriate as some sort of marker that
means "order by" in the selection attribute itself, as in:

(:pagelist $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)

which means to select only those pages where $:Category is
"Bug", "Feature", or "Documentation", and to display them in
that sequence.  To sort by name within those groupings,
one would use:

(:pagelist order=$:Category,name $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Sandy]

The Editor wrote:

> I've had the same frustration and would appreciate the shortcut.  But
> in the meantime, remember you can always type "search phrase
> group=pmwiki,cookbook" right into the searchbox and it will limit to
> the group you want automatically.
> 

Bit harder than I was hoping, and yet another thing to memorize for the 
newbies, but it'll save me personally a lot of frustration.

Thanks!

Sandy


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Sandy]

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 08:13:22AM -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 10:01:45PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
>>> For groups, how about:
>>>(:pagelist presort=group1,group2 :)
>> Well, I was somewhat hoping to not limit this capability to
>> just groups and pagenames -- what if I wanted to set the output
>> sequence based on a page variable or page text variable?
>>
>> For example, in PITS I might want to display PITS pages
>> sorted by the $:Category value such that all "Bug" pages
>> appear first, followed by "Feature", followed by "Documentation",
>> followed by everything else.
>>
>> The current pagelist code makes it relatively easy to provide
>> this sort of capability in a local customization file (using
>> a custom order= parameter), but I was hoping to find a general
>> way to do it from markup.
> 
> Hmmm, perhaps we could put the desired ordering in parens 
> or brackets after the item to be ordered?
> 
> (:pagelist order=$Group(PmWiki,Cookbook,PITS,*) :)
> (:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation,*) :)
> 
> But then if someone wants to select only Bug/Feature/Documentation
> (and display in that order), we get the unwieldy
> 
> (:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
>   $:Category=Bug,Feature,Documentation :)
> 
> So, perhaps it's more appropriate as some sort of marker that
> means "order by" in the selection attribute itself, as in:
> 
> (:pagelist $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)
> 
> which means to select only those pages where $:Category is
> "Bug", "Feature", or "Documentation", and to display them in
> that sequence.  To sort by name within those groupings,
> one would use:
> 
> (:pagelist order=$:Category,name $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)
> 
> Pm

One extra search field, incorporating group= on pmwiki.org, that's all I 
was expecting. And instead we get ... something that will be even more 
powerful.

Just remember to activate it on PmWiki.org, 'k? I've got a potential 
convert, and after saying how easy and streamlined it is, I then had to 
tell him to ignore the first 3/4 of any search results. Doesn't inspire 
the confidence the program deserves.

Sandy




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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 11:38:01AM -0500, Sandy wrote:
> Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> > Hmmm, perhaps we could put the desired ordering in parens 
> > or brackets after the item to be ordered?
> > 
> > which means to select only those pages where $:Category is
> > "Bug", "Feature", or "Documentation", and to display them in
> > that sequence.  To sort by name within those groupings,
> > one would use:
> > 
> > (:pagelist order=$:Category,name $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
> > :)
> 
> One extra search field, incorporating group= on pmwiki.org, that's all I 
> was expecting. And instead we get ... something that will be even more 
> powerful.

Well, I always tend to think in terms of "How can I solve a whole
bunch of problems" as opposed to implementing quick fixes for a single
problem.

That said, implementing the ordering-by-parens is still more
speculation than reality at the moment, so we may end up with
a temporary "add a list= parameter" for pmwiki.org's search
for now.

I'm also thinking that I may want the default output format
to display summaries along with the pagenames, instead of just
pagenames as it does now.

> Just remember to activate it on PmWiki.org, 'k? I've got a potential 
> convert, and after saying how easy and streamlined it is, I then had to 
> tell him to ignore the first 3/4 of any search results. Doesn't inspire 
> the confidence the program deserves.

Having seen the access logs and done a few searches myself on 
pmwiki.org, I totally agree.  In times past I've been a bit reluctant
to do too much customization of searches (and other items)
on pmwiki.org, because that would increase the distance between
what people see on pmwiki.org and what they get when they install
PmWiki for themselves.

But this is a case where having cleaner search results on pmwiki.org
probably trumps the desire to match the out-of-the-box functionality.

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Sandy]

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 11:38:01AM -0500, Sandy wrote:
>> Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
>>> Hmmm, perhaps we could put the desired ordering in parens 
>>> or brackets after the item to be ordered?
>>>
>>> which means to select only those pages where $:Category is
>>> "Bug", "Feature", or "Documentation", and to display them in
>>> that sequence.  To sort by name within those groupings,
>>> one would use:
>>>
>>> (:pagelist order=$:Category,name $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
>>> :)
>> One extra search field, incorporating group= on pmwiki.org, that's all I 
>> was expecting. And instead we get ... something that will be even more 
>> powerful.
> 
> Well, I always tend to think in terms of "How can I solve a whole
> bunch of problems" as opposed to implementing quick fixes for a single
> problem.

I forgot to add the smilie. Thinking big, and doing a good job of it, is 
how the program got to be so good in the first place.

> I'm also thinking that I may want the default output format
> to display summaries along with the pagenames, instead of just
> pagenames as it does now.

Leave it as an option for the reader. I think they can be confusing.

For pmwiki.org, maybe pages with titles that include the search term 
should come first. If I'm looking for "passwords", the pages with that 
word in them are more useful than ones where someone has said "and 
remember to set a password".

> But this is a case where having cleaner search results on pmwiki.org
> probably trumps the desire to match the out-of-the-box functionality.

Isn't there already a page listing the differences? Most of the 
differences are minor and good examples of how easy it is to customize it.

Search all of PmWiki.org: (:searchbox:)
Search PmWiki and Cookbook Groups only: (:searchbox group=pmiki,cookbook:)

Cheer!

Sandy






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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 12:15:25PM -0500, Sandy wrote:
> > I'm also thinking that I may want the default output format
> > to display summaries along with the pagenames, instead of just
> > pagenames as it does now.
> 
> Leave it as an option for the reader. I think they can be confusing.

I've now re-done the search results on pmwiki.org a bit.  
Any matching pages in the PmWiki, Cookbook, PITS, and Site groups
are displayed first (in that order), followed by pages in other 
groups on the wiki (in alphabetical order).

Each matching page has any $:Summary value displayed after it.

See if that improves searching on pmwiki.org for a bit.
I'd also be interested in seeing any proposals for alternate
output templates that we might want to adopt instead.

> For pmwiki.org, maybe pages with titles that include the search term 
> should come first. If I'm looking for "passwords", the pages with that 
> word in them are more useful than ones where someone has said "and 
> remember to set a password".

We might be able to do this.  It sounds a bit like a specialized
pagelist, though, since some pages would end up being listed twice.
Either that or we need to have the default Search page handle
two pagelists -- one for "pages containing search terms in the name" 
and then the normal search results based on page content.

Another possibility would be to put a ranking algorithm on the search 
results, and display the pages in order of best match (like most 
search engines do).  The pagelist code that comes in 2.2.0 has much 
better hooks for this sort of thing.  For example, a simple
word frequency ranking would count the number of times a given
word appears in a page (increasing the weight if the word appears
as a keyword, in a heading, in a description, in a title, or
in the pagename), and then we display the page results
by decreasing rank.

> Isn't there already a page listing the differences? Most of the 
> differences are minor and good examples of how easy it is to customize it.
> 
> Search all of PmWiki.org: (:searchbox:)
> Search PmWiki and Cookbook Groups only: (:searchbox group=pmiki,cookbook:)

This is also possible, but I think we really need the searchbox
in the upper-right to default to the limited form of search as well.
So, probably something more like:

Search: [xyz___]
(*) Search documentation, cookbook, and PITS
( ) Search all of pmwiki.org

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Hans]

Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 5:56:13 PM, Patrick wrote:

> I've now re-done the search results on pmwiki.org a bit.  
> Any matching pages in the PmWiki, Cookbook, PITS, and Site groups
> are displayed first (in that order), followed by pages in other 
> groups on the wiki (in alphabetical order).

> Each matching page has any $:Summary value displayed after it.

> See if that improves searching on pmwiki.org for a bit.
> I'd also be interested in seeing any proposals for alternate
> output templates that we might want to adopt instead.

This is a lot better! Thanks!

What I would love in addition is a switch (radio button) to search for
the search term only in the page name, i.e. as:
"searchterm" is treated as "name=*searchterm*" if the radio button is
selected, otherwise the searchterm is looked for everywhere.


Hans


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 06:23:26PM +, Hans wrote:
> Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 5:56:13 PM, Patrick wrote:
> > I've now re-done the search results on pmwiki.org a bit.  
> 
> This is a lot better! Thanks!
> 
> What I would love in addition is a switch (radio button) to search for
> the search term only in the page name, i.e. as:
> "searchterm" is treated as "name=*searchterm*" if the radio button is
> selected, otherwise the searchterm is looked for everywhere.

What if there are multiple search terms?

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Hans]

Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 6:39:14 PM, Patrick wrote:

> What if there are multiple search terms?

in the case of name=*term* it may be best to use name=*"term"*

Maybe this is not good for pmwiki, but I am interested if there is a
way to input a searchterm and have name=*searchterm* implemented in
the search instead. Perhaps even jump to the page if it exists.


Hans


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Patrick R. Michaud]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 06:57:03PM +, Hans wrote:
> Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 6:39:14 PM, Patrick wrote:
> 
> > What if there are multiple search terms?
> 
> in the case of name=*term* it may be best to use name=*"term"*
> 
> Maybe this is not good for pmwiki, but I am interested if there is a
> way to input a searchterm and have name=*searchterm* implemented in
> the search instead. Perhaps even jump to the page if it exists.

Actually, I'm sorta thinking that perhaps we want a way to
apply the search terms to any page variable, and not just
the page's name.  By default the search terms are tested
against the page's text, targets, and name.  But we could
provide an option that explicitly identifies the field(s?)
to test against (I'm using "terms=" below, but could
use a better name):

## look for search terms only in page titles
(:searchresults terms=$Title:)

## look for search terms only in page names
(:searchresults terms=$FullName:)

## look for search terms only in Status: lines
(:searchresults terms=$:Status:)

We really would need a better name than "terms=" however.
The idea is that we're taking the terms entered in a searchbox
and applying them to some page variable or attribute other
than the page's text (which is currently the default).

If we do this, then our Site.Search page can look something like:

(:searchbox:)

(:if ...userrequestedsearch... :)

Pages containing search terms in title
(:pagelist terms=$Title:)

Pages containing search terms in text
(:searchresults:)
(:if:)

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Hans]

Wednesday, January 24, 2007, 9:12:25 PM, Patrick wrote:

> We really would need a better name than "terms=" however.
> The idea is that we're taking the terms entered in a searchbox
> and applying them to some page variable or attribute other
> than the page's text (which is currently the default).

How about "search=" ?

search=$Title
search=$FullName
etc.

as that is what is searched.


Hans


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[DaveG]

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 08:13:22AM -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:



> 
> (:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
>   $:Category=Bug,Feature,Documentation :)
I like this syntax, but you're right it may become unweildy as more 
terms are added. What about pointing to a page of ordered terms?


> 
> So, perhaps it's more appropriate as some sort of marker that
> means "order by" in the selection attribute itself, as in:
> 
> (:pagelist $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)
Another good option, and one I'd personally find useful. How about 
taking a similar approach as we have for templates, where we can have a 
page that defines various formats. In this case it would be lists, or 
variable values.


> 
> which means to select only those pages where $:Category is
> "Bug", "Feature", or "Documentation", and to display them in
> that sequence.  To sort by name within those groupings,
> one would use:
> 
> (:pagelist order=$:Category,name $:Category=(Bug,Feature,Documentation) :)
> 
> Pm
> 

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Kathryn Andersen]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 10:14:05PM -0500, DaveG wrote:
> Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 08:13:22AM -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> 
> > (:pagelist order=$:Category(Bug,Feature,Documentation) 
> >   $:Category=Bug,Feature,Documentation :)
> I like this syntax, but you're right it may become unweildy as more 
> terms are added. What about pointing to a page of ordered terms?

IMHO, I'd find that even more unweildy.
 
Kathryn Andersen
-- 
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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Oliver Betz]

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:

[...]

> I've now re-done the search results on pmwiki.org a bit.  
> Any matching pages in the PmWiki, Cookbook, PITS, and Site groups
> are displayed first (in that order), followed by pages in other 
> groups on the wiki (in alphabetical order).

that's a significant improvement.

> Each matching page has any $:Summary value displayed after it.

That's an interesting option I've not yet seen in other Wikis. Still 
waiting for some excerpt from the page text, though (SCNR).

[pages with matching titles first]

> We might be able to do this.  It sounds a bit like a specialized
> pagelist, though, since some pages would end up being listed twice.

Dokuwiki shows you a popup of matching pagenames if you type 
something in the search field. And it shows first a list of matching 
pagenames, then a list of pagetext matches - IMO a good solution. I 
recommend to try it at http://wiki.splitbrain.org/

PhpWiki has a search for pagenames ("TitleSearch") and a search for 
page text ("FullTextSearch") - even "fuzzy" (similar sounding, only 
for english). If you give enough text in a "TitleSearch" to yield 
only one result, you are taken to that page immediately - else you 
get a list of pages. That's very convenient if you want to go to a 
certain page but don't remember the whole name or don't want to type 
it in completely.

PhpWiki also supports PCRE expressions in searches, but I'm afraid 
most users don't know how to use them. The options in PmWiki seem to 
be sufficient to me.

> Another possibility would be to put a ranking algorithm on the search 
> results, and display the pages in order of best match (like most 

I guess this would give the most useful result.

Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Search box on PmWiki.org

[Roman]

On 1/24/07, Patrick R. Michaud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > For pmwiki.org, maybe pages with titles that include the search term
> > should come first. If I'm looking for "passwords", the pages with that
> > word in them are more useful than ones where someone has said "and
> > remember to set a password".
>
> We might be able to do this.  It sounds a bit like a specialized
> pagelist, though, since some pages would end up being listed twice.
> Either that or we need to have the default Search page handle
> two pagelists -- one for "pages containing search terms in the name"
> and then the normal search results based on page content.
>
> Another possibility would be to put a ranking algorithm on the search
> results, and display the pages in order of best match (like most
> search engines do).  The pagelist code that comes in 2.2.0 has much
> better hooks for this sort of thing.  For example, a simple
> word frequency ranking would count the number of times a given
> word appears in a page (increasing the weight if the word appears
> as a keyword, in a heading, in a description, in a title, or
> in the pagename), and then we display the page results
> by decreasing rank.

Ranking would be great! That is exactly type of solution you were
talking about ("How can I solve a whole bunch of problems" as opposed
to implementing quick fixes for a single problem.). I think that it
would even solve Sandy's original request better.

FYI, Mateusz Czaplinski has made some ranking extension in his
SortByScore cookbook recipe
(http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/SortByScore.html). Unfortunately,
it does not work on 2.2 (at least on my site), does not prefer titles,
headings etc. and shows excerpt of source code instead of excerpt of
resulting page.

Roman

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