Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Will Miner wrote: (ducking, in case Curry is anywhere nearby) Golly.could you imagine Rick Wakeman decked out with a cape AND a Stetson!!! Wow.. Think about stacked steels..run through multiple effect banks. The possibilities are endless. Going to start me one of those "progressive country" bands...we'll call it."Ya'll", since Yes has been taken. NP: Gary Allen - Used heart for Sale Jerry
RE: A Question [Extremely LONG] and other stuff
Jon writes re the Kenny/Ann-1979, G*rth/Shania-1999 comparison: It's not a bad comparison, especially if you look forward a little bit - 1979 was a low point, followed shortly by the Neo-Trads (Skaggs, early McEntire, et.al.) - but it has its limits; "rules" is a pretty slippery term. Murray and Rogers each had 3 #1s that year (one of Rogers' was with Dottie West), but Conway Twitty did, too, Waylon Jennings had 2, John Conlee had 2, Charley Pride had 2, Don Williams had 2, and Mel Tillis, Moe Joe, and Willie Nelson Leon Russell all hit that position, and when you get deeper into the charts there was plenty of good stuff around (e.g., Emmylou Harris had two Top 10s and another two that just missed). The problem, as it were, is that country music history is generally too complicated to allow for the kinds of general statements about the health of the field that folks often seem compelled to make. I don't think that Wahl was comparing radio play (other people have had #1 records this past year, too, obviously) but was looking at in terms of *sales*, which is what most of the articles I've read have focused on as well; You have G*rth and Shania and then everyone else. And re: McCall on Chesnutt and the Damnations: I guess McCall thought there was some other point; maybe he thought that enthusiasm is a *starting* point for making good music, not the ending point. I wouldn't give the new Chesnutt 4 stars, but I wouldn't give the Damnations TX 3, either, not on a country music scale, anyhow (meaning both albums). Guessing don't count for much g. But I think this goes a long way to explaining why Jon doesn't "get" much of what most people refer to as alt.country, where enthusiasm is *only* the point of making good music. Re: Country.com encyclopedia: Walser's in there, and so are Dale Watson, Kelly Willis, Townes Van Zandt, BR5-49, Julie Buddy Miller, the Flatlanders and Foster Lloyd, to take a few randomly-chosen (ha) instances. I don't have the disk to check, but I'm almost positive Walser is *not* in there. The main problem I have with it is that it's almost exclusively Nashville country based and doesn't take into account non-Nashville acts. I'll keep the disc, though, My dog loves shiny frisbee. g. Jim, not running for president of anything
RE: A Question [Extremely LONG] and other stuff
Jim says: I don't think that Wahl was comparing radio play (other people have had #1 records this past year, too, obviously) but was looking at in terms of *sales*, which is what most of the articles I've read have focused on as well; You have G*rth and Shania and then everyone else. Ah, well, that's different. But in that case, it seems to me that a comparison with sales in other genres today is relevant, too, i.e., do you find the same kind of inverted pyramid with respect to sales, with a handful of acts accounting for a hugely disproportionate percentage of units. I will be surprised if the situation is radically different in pop or rock, and if that's so, then it would suggest that a solution might not be specific to country music either, and that one would want to look at least as closely at the situation in other fields as at the situation in country music 20 years ago. Still, it sounds worth checking out. And re: McCall on Chesnutt and the Damnations: I guess McCall thought there was some other point; maybe he thought that enthusiasm is a *starting* point for making good music, not the ending point. I wouldn't give the new Chesnutt 4 stars, but I wouldn't give the Damnations TX 3, either, not on a country music scale, anyhow (meaning both albums). Guessing don't count for much g. But I think this goes a long way to explaining why Jon doesn't "get" much of what most people refer to as alt.country, where enthusiasm is *only* the point of making good music. No, I get it just fine. I just don't generally *like* music that features enthusiasm sans skill. There are plenty of musicians who have both (IMO, of course; enthusiasm is at least in part in the ear of the listener), so I don't see much reason to settle for just the one. Obviously, there are exceptions, but not many. Re: Country.com encyclopedia: Walser's in there, and so are Dale Watson, Kelly Willis, Townes Van Zandt, BR5-49, Julie Buddy Miller, the Flatlanders and Foster Lloyd, to take a few randomly-chosen (ha) instances. I don't have the disk to check, but I'm almost positive Walser is *not* in there. That's interesting. If you don't mind checking, I'd appreciate it; I'm curious as to whether there's much difference in content between the print version and the CD-ROM one, and Walser is definitely in the former. The main problem I have with it is that it's almost exclusively Nashville country based and doesn't take into account non-Nashville acts. Aw, baloney. It might not devote enough space to "non-Nashville acts," whatever that means (what's a Nashville act? One on the Nashville division of a major label? recorded exclusively in Nashville? recorded sometimes in Nashville? lives in Nashville? lived in Nashville for a while?), to suit some folks, but I'll bet there's not a dozen pages out of the 600+ in the print edition that doesn't have a "non-Nashville act" entry by any reasonable definition of the term. Maybe the CD-ROM's different... Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
Cheryl's deal on this was good. I agreed with it. And I also understand where Jim Roll was coming from, about the press and alt.country. Except one thing-- I wish the term "country rock" hadn't been ruined by the Eagles and the L.A. 70s scene. It was a very useful term. I've been writing it letters where it's been interned, on some outre gulag on the eastern edge of Siberia.Let me know when it's safe to bring it back. -- Terry Smith
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
Cheryl Cline wrote: Bob "Ask Joe" Soron wrote: I remember the Name Problem, but I didn't much pay attention at the time. I use pretty tightly defined nomenclatures, so that no matter what people might think I'm saying, I always know. And as a non-Big Tent-er, I don't use alt.country, No Depression, Americana, and other titles synonymously. So I'm probably much less help than you'd hoped. (I haven't got a clue as to chronology, either.) Well, YOU'RE no help! I'm still curious about how far back this "we gotta get a name for this stuff" goes. Anyone else remember? Uh, Joe? g In 1971 we started looking for a name for it and the best we could do was "Progressive Country", which was decent enough but somehow unsatisfying. There was, and still is, no perfect name for something this diverse. I mean, how do you describe country music played by hippies? How about "Badly Played Country That Sounds Really Cool If You Are Stoned"? How about "Singing About Whiskey While High on LSD"? -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Joe Gracey wrote: In 1971 we started looking for a name for it and the best we could do was "Progressive Country", which was decent enough but somehow unsatisfying. Gee, right around that same time people were looking for a name for the kind of overworked poppyclassicojazzrock hodgepodge played by people like Yes and ELP and they came up with the name "progressive rock." The idea of there being any link between these two, even if only by an adjective, gives me the heebie jeebies. Will Miner Denver, CO (ducking, in case Curry is anywhere nearby)
Re: A progressive Question [Extremely LONG]
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Joe Gracey wrote: In 1971 we started looking for a name for it and the best we could do was "Progressive Country", which was decent enough but somehow unsatisfying. Gee, right around that same time people were looking for a name for the kind of overworked poppyclassicojazzrock hodgepodge played by people like Yes and ELP and they came up with the name "progressive rock." The idea of there being any link between these two, even if only by an adjective, gives me the heebie jeebies. Will Miner And the pre=newwgrass bands of that same time were called "Progressive Bluegrass" if that helps! Remember, "progressive jazz" was a term already over a decade old then. (In 1961, Progressive Jazz means something like, say, Maynard Fergusonand I guess they'd even used it before that for Brubeck etc...Even then it meant a well-intentioned middle class intellectual watering down of something harder!) Joe could fill in more detail, but in '71 the "progressive rock" label was not being born, but horribly transmorgified into what Will just described. It had been used since the advent of FM album-playing rock stations in '66-'67--and the stations themselves were usually called "free form" or "progressive"...so anything over 2 minutes and 8 seconds on a single was progressive rock! Part of me still feels we were better off with the 2 minutes 8 seconds, and I say this as a known Dylan fan. Barry
Re: A progressive Question [Extremely LONG]
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Barry Mazor wrote: Part of me still feels we were better off with the 2 minutes 8 seconds, and I say this as a known Dylan fan. Absolutely. Removing the time barrier has made people lazy. Now you get songs that start with sixteen bars of empty chord changes, extra verses that add nothing, bridges inserted just to have a bridge, endless repetitions of choruses. The good thing about music that was oriented toward quick singles was that everything had to make a difference. Too bad we've lost that ethic. (Even Dylan, when he was good and breaking the time rule, had it. I'd say there's nothing extraneous in the 7-1/2 minutes of "Visions of Johanna," whereas there's lots extraneous in the 8 minutes of "Idiot Wind," done eight years later.) Will Miner Denver, CO
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG] and other stuff
Cheryl writes: Our second question is: Where can I find Merle Haggard's tribute to Jimmie Rodgers? I almost spit coffee through my nose on this one line. LOL! Ya know this name thing has really got me bugged, especially cause I need to name something centered around this"Big Tent" type of music and I can't find a one that's satisfactory. AND I've been looking for YEARS! On another note, been reading some 'zines lately and found some interesting stuff. I recommend Modern Screen Country Music (Shania Twain centerfold inside-I kid you not) for the column by Waylon Wahl that draws comparisons to the country music scene of 20 years ago (ruled by Kenny Rogers and Ann Murray) and today (ruled by G*rth and Shania)? Also, how could Michael McCall give the new Mark Chesnutt 4 stars and the Damnations 3 stars in the new Tower Pulse. Seems kinda backward to me, especially because he doesn't like the D-nations for having more "enthusiasm than expertise." I thought that was the point. I received a copy of "Country.com's Century Of Country Music: The Definitive Country Music Encyclopedia" CD-ROM. Went looking for the Derailers. Not there. Thing is fairly useless. I do understand that David Goodman has a revised copy of Modern Twang coming out. I'll wait for that one. Enough rambling... Did I say "I (heart) Cheryl Cline, today? Jim, smilin
RE: A Question [Extremely LONG] and other stuff
On another note, been reading some 'zines lately and found some interesting stuff. I recommend Modern Screen Country Music (Shania Twain centerfold inside-I kid you not) for the column by Waylon Wahl that draws comparisons to the country music scene of 20 years ago (ruled by Kenny Rogers and Ann Murray) and today (ruled by G*rth and Shania)? It's not a bad comparison, especially if you look forward a little bit - 1979 was a low point, followed shortly by the Neo-Trads (Skaggs, early McEntire, et.al.) - but it has its limits; "rules" is a pretty slippery term. Murray and Rogers each had 3 #1s that year (one of Rogers' was with Dottie West), but Conway Twitty did, too, Waylon Jennings had 2, John Conlee had 2, Charley Pride had 2, Don Williams had 2, and Mel Tillis, Moe Joe, and Willie Nelson Leon Russell all hit that position, and when you get deeper into the charts there was plenty of good stuff around (e.g., Emmylou Harris had two Top 10s and another two that just missed). The problem, as it were, is that country music history is generally too complicated to allow for the kinds of general statements about the health of the field that folks often seem compelled to make. Also, how could Michael McCall give the new Mark Chesnutt 4 stars and the Damnations 3 stars in the new Tower Pulse. Seems kinda backward to me, especially because he doesn't like the D-nations for having more "enthusiasm than expertise." I thought that was the point. I guess McCall thought there was some other point; maybe he thought that enthusiasm is a *starting* point for making good music, not the ending point. I wouldn't give the new Chesnutt 4 stars, but I wouldn't give the Damnations TX 3, either, not on a country music scale, anyhow (meaning both albums). I received a copy of "Country.com's Century Of Country Music: The Definitive Country Music Encyclopedia" CD-ROM. Went looking for the Derailers. Not there. Thing is fairly useless. Well, like with any encyclopedia, stuff's gotta get left out. Walser's in there, and so are Dale Watson, Kelly Willis, Townes Van Zandt, BR5-49, Julie Buddy Miller, the Flatlanders and Foster Lloyd, to take a few randomly-chosen (ha) instances. Personally, I think giving as much space to Walser and Watson combined, or to Jim Jesse, as to Shania Twain isn't a half-bad approach. I'm sure someone would be happy to take that fairly useless CD off your hands. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
Bob Soron wrote: If they're not "alt country" or "alternative country" according to the UT/No Depression revisionism, er, I mean yardstick, then, we're back to the original problem being batted around back then (and when *did* this start, btw? Bob Soron?) [...] I had *nothing* to do with it. Ask Gracey, who was there whenever something good happened. Or someone old, like Barry or Wyatt. g I'm askin' you! g. Of course Gracey is the one to ask, as he goes back To The Beginning of Time, what a maroon I am. It's just that back when I first got on the Net, reading rec.music.country.western, I remember you as being the one with the knowledge of all things Flatlanders. So I wanted to pick your brains a bit about the search for a name for the music around the late 80s and early 90s. When I started seeking out like-minded twangsters, about this time, through Twangin', and later the Internet, the search for a name for the "what we mean when we point to it" music was already underway, and it referred to people like Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Joe Ely, Butch Hancock, Nanci Griffith, Tish Hinojosa, Rosie Flores, Dave Alvin and other, uh, "pre No Depression" musicians. Kevin Welch and Jimmie Dale Gilmore came up with "western beat," which Welch used for an album (and which Billy Block had been using for some time in L.A. for his showcases). That didn't take. Didn't Gavin start up the Americana charts about this time? Or was that a bit later? That name didn't stick either. What I'm getting at is that before UT, before No Depression, folks were wondering what to call this stuff. To my mind, if it doesn't make a "genre," it makes a "scene"-- a gathering (virtual or in real-time) of like-minded folks who want to play, discuss, find, write about a kind of music that, while the borders may be vague and shift, is enough of a piece for a group of like-minded people to want to play, discuss, find, and write about it. And even though (this to Jim Roll) bluegrass, old time, folk, rockabilly, etc. existed as separate genres, the fans and musicians -- the far-flung (with a hotbed in Austin) "scene" -- was a place where these generes intersected. Not everybody liked every kind of music, but if you found yourself in a gathering of fans and musicians of "this kind of music," you'd hear talk about all of them. This is why the "Big Tent" definition is still popular -- bluegrass and rockabilly and folk were not "suddenly" added to alternative country; they were there all along. This is why I prefer thinking about it as "an alternative way of looking at country music," because that was what was happening when I got hooked into the loose network of country/roots music people. They were people who were actively seeking out *all kinds* of different country and "roots" music. And they were not all coming from punk backgrounds either; the age range, and the range of experience, was wide. Was, I said. Still is, I mean. That's the "alternative country" that IS STILL FUCKIN' (sorry Tera) HERE and will be here forever and ever amen, whether No Depression music disappears OR becomes the Next Big Thing. No Depression-UT focused attention on the music, true; but it focuses attention *away* from a large chunk of alternative country music as well. It's being "disappeared" from country/rock history even as we speak. Boy this is getting long. But another thing... g This is how I came to be on Postcard2. I had started the Twangin' e-zine (ascii plain text!) and as part of that, searched for mailing lists newsgroups of interest. So I'd sub to them for a while to see what they were like before I listed them in Twangin'. I subbed to the rockabilly list, I subbed to Country-L, I subbed to single-artist lists, I read rec.music.country.western and, later, rec.music.country.old-time. (I'd subbed to BGRASS-L the minute I found the Internet.) I subbed to Postcard in the same spirit. As I wasn't terribly interested in UT/Wilco/Son Volt, I would have unsubbed after sampling the list, except that the definition of "bands like UT" kept widening. I was especially impressed by the wholesale leap into old-time music by a fellow named Steve Gardner g. So I hung on until the Great Crash, when Postcard went down and Laura started up Postcard2 as an emergency back-up. When she decided to keep it going as the place to talk about the "Bands Like UT" -- which by this time included people like Merle Haggard and Doc Watson -- I stayed. And over time, this list became a refuge for people who wanted to look at country music from an alternative point of view, and were dissatisfied (to say the least) with Country-L or r.m.c.w. The thing is, Postcard, and then Postcard2, was the only place where you could really get into ALL kinds of country music without seriously getting off-topic. The country lists and newsgroups were (are?) openly antagonistic towards older and non-charting country music. This list is open to discussion of country music in all its forms, though sometimes
Re: Cheryl's answer to Question [Extremely LONG]
Amen. It's keep on coming and it keeps on coming back. Witn the health of the music that exactly fits the "tiny tent" alt.country definition at least questionable now--the bigger picture ought to feel like good news to anybody who's really connected with ALL THIS. What Cheryl said was the five-ring circus Big Tent truth... Put as only Ms. Cline can put it--whenever she happens to get so in-Clined. Barry Who kinda stepped into the pool as a small kid in the rockabilly 50s..appreciated the positive side of the folk scare..and has been in whole hog thgru the twists and turns since the Byrd-in-the-Burrito country rock non-boomlet. (Also trying to figure how Mr. Cantwell's new "what you hgeard at age ten" rule applies to me--cause 1960 was kind of a slimn year between some fat periods!)
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
Cheryl -- just please please don't ever find better things to do with your time. thank you, Linda
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
At 11:42 AM -0800 on 3/6/99, Cheryl Cline wrote: I'm askin' you! g. Of course Gracey is the one to ask, as he goes back To The Beginning of Time, what a maroon I am. It's just that back when I first got on the Net, reading rec.music.country.western, I remember you as being the one with the knowledge of all things Flatlanders. I reckon Joe could probably outdo me there too. g When I started seeking out like-minded twangsters, about this time, through Twangin', and later the Internet, the search for a name for the "what we mean when we point to it" music was already underway, and it referred to people like Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Joe Ely, Butch Hancock, Nanci Griffith, Tish Hinojosa, Rosie Flores, Dave Alvin and other, uh, "pre No Depression" musicians. Kevin Welch and Jimmie Dale Gilmore came up with "western beat," which Welch used for an album (and which Billy Block had been using for some time in L.A. for his showcases). That didn't take. Didn't Gavin start up the Americana charts about this time? Or was that a bit later? That name didn't stick either. I remember the Name Problem, but I didn't much pay attention at the time. I use pretty tightly defined nomenclatures, so that no matter what people might think I'm saying, I always know. And as a non-Big Tent-er, I don't use alt.country, No Depression, Americana, and other titles synonymously. So I'm probably much less help than you'd hoped. (I haven't got a clue as to chronology, either.) The thing is, there's this... reservoir of "alternative country" that has existed at least since bluegrass, the Original Alt.Country (TM) was invented. Well, not being a Big Tent adherent, I disagree that either of these are alternative in any way, but I think you're thinking of Western swing. g Bob
Re: A Question [Extremely LONG]
Bob "Ask Joe" Soron wrote: I remember the Name Problem, but I didn't much pay attention at the time. I use pretty tightly defined nomenclatures, so that no matter what people might think I'm saying, I always know. And as a non-Big Tent-er, I don't use alt.country, No Depression, Americana, and other titles synonymously. So I'm probably much less help than you'd hoped. (I haven't got a clue as to chronology, either.) Well, YOU'RE no help! I'm still curious about how far back this "we gotta get a name for this stuff" goes. Anyone else remember? Uh, Joe? g The thing is, there's this... reservoir of "alternative country" that has existed at least since bluegrass, the Original Alt.Country (TM) was invented. Well, not being a Big Tent adherent, I disagree that either of these are alternative in any way, but I think you're thinking of Western swing. g We'll let Jon and Don duke that one out! I know you're not a Big Tent person. Aren't you the one defying the Bluegrass Borg? g I was delirious on coffee this morning, and I'm not sure I got all my point across. Let's see, another 2,000 words? Okay, not. g But aside from, in addition to, alongside, or existing independently of, genres such as rockabilly, bluegrass, and etc., there seems to also to be a bunch of music at any given time that doesn't fit any clear genre, and is more-or-less "roots" and more-or-less "country" -- like the ex-Flatlanders. It *was* called "roots music" in the 70s and early 80s, wasn't it? Hmmm Maybe I need more coffee. I'm unpacking boxes of books and magazines (and clippings) though, so maybe I can find some clues. (Never move into a place with a garage. You NEVER get your stuff unpacked.) --Cheryl Cline
