RE: [OT] Images of war

[Bob Calco]

!   It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something

! glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you

! that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  
! the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn 
! the public  
! against the war.
! 
!   It's important to look at these images, and realize 
! that people who  
! are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and

! calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are  
! supporting.
! 
! 
! 
! ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )


It's always fascinating to listen to indoor plumbing spoken of as
something civilized and wonderful, when those who have worked in
sewage plants know that the shit really stinks. Yet our pro-sanitation
media is filtering out the disturbing images one can easily find in
any city waste disposal plant on the planet, so as not to turn the
public against indoor plumbing.

It's important to look at these images, and realize people who are
calling for more water and sewage treatment plants are endorsing these
images, and are calling for more of them. No sugar coating; this is
what they are supporting.

http://www.cormix.info/images/3,NGSPicturePak%2335,Sewage.jpg
http://www.sas.org.uk/pr/images04/sewage.jpg
http://www.pepa.com.hk/gallery/photos/pollution/SEWAGE.jpg
http://www.enviro-lynx.com/stock-photography/images/Sewage%20Overflow.
jpg
http://www.allanindustries.com/images/Sewage-1.jpg
http://www.holidaytravelwatch.net/Images/gallery/photos/Original%20Fil
es/San%20Andres%20raw%20sewage%20swamp.JPG
http://www.cleansafeservices.co.uk/sewage.phtm
http://www.afpc.org/images2/DPIS0904/sewage.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/icandigital/sewage.jpg

On a serious note, appeals to emotion and impugning of motives are
part of Ed's famous double standard (OK if he does it, if others do it
from a different perspective they're twits); nevertheless, I should
like to clarify that I am not in favor of blowing up women and
children. I am in favor of blowing up terrorists and dictators, who
unfortunately happen to enjoy blowing up women and children. I'm also
in favor of other people -- yea, even people who aren't white and
don't live in upstate New York -- enjoying economic liberty and
political freedom. This would include even Iraqis.

The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib. The idea is that
there is dirty work in any worthwhile civilized thing, some of which
is not for the weak of stomach. The people we are engaged in fighting
are literally scum of the earth---truly bloodthirsty thugs with no
regard for humanity or the rules of war let alone the Marcus of
Queensbury rules we're supposed to use when confronting them. This
inclination to want to paint our soldiers and our leaders in that
conspiratorial and clandestine light, as if the poor hapless Saddams
and Zarqawis and Kim Il Sungs and mullahs of the world are innocent --
what was Bill's term? -- _casualties_ of the "warmongers" in
Washington is offensive to me, but alas, people are entitled to hold
their opinions, however silly.

I don't support innocent people losing their lives in these
conflicts---but how do you avoid that and still confront the thugs and
murderers who thrive on it? No, Kofi Annan isn't the answer; not even
close. You can't negotiate with these murderers. What's your bright
idea? I think knocking out regimes that support them and helping the
formerly oppressed people get on their own feet is a noble thing,
albeit riskier than negotiating with dictators for cheap oil and
turning a blind eye to their repressive regimes (which was what we did
for decades previously).

Anyway thanks Ed for the opportunity to clarify. 

- Bob
 

! 
! -- Ed Leafe
! -- http://leafe.com
! -- http://dabodev.com
! 
! 
! 
! 
! 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

Re: [OT] Images of war

[Leland Jackson]

This should be a job for the UN.  All countries should be encourage to 
join the UN.  The UN charter should have a UN Constitution similar to 
that of the US, whereby all people world wide would be granted certain 
basic rights to life, liberty, due process and pursuit of happiness.  
The UN charter should be very brief and broad, so it could accommodate 
all the diversity in the world.  For example, the UN charter should 
recognize:


1)  The UN does not have a monopoly on religion, whether Christianity, 
Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc; therefore, under the UN every person in 
the world should have the right to worship a God of their own understanding.


2)  The UN does not have a monopoly on a single best form of government, 
whether Democratic, Socialism, Communism, or any other form of 
Government; therefore, each country should have the right to establish a 
government that best serves the people, traditions, and customs of the 
various countries.


3)  Each country should have the right to its own military, to be used 
to defend its own boarders and territories against invasion by any enemy.


4)  The UN does not have a monopoly on the best judicial system; 
therefore, each country should be allowed to have a judicial system that 
best servers its people in the traditions, and customs of the countrys 
concerned.


The UN would then enforce its charter from resources provided by its 
member countries.  The UN would have a Supreme Court with the duty of 
upholding the UN Constitution.


Any person around the world could bring a case before the UN Supreme 
Court, who decide whether to hear the case or not.  It the UN Supreme 
Court decided to hear a case, it would then make a ruling on whether the 
UN Constitution had been violated or not.  The UN constitution would be 
the Supreme law of the land, even higher than the US Constitution.  If 
it were found that any country was in violation of the UN Constitution, 
that country would be required to take corrective action.  Any person 
who violated the UN Constitution should be brought to justice by the UN 
judicial, military, and police powers.


The government of the UN should by appointment of ambassadors from the 
member countries.  The UN Supreme Court should be by appointment of the 
President of the UN, with confirmation by a majority of ambassadors  The 
appointment of the UN Supreme Court should be for the life of the 
Justice.  The UN should function as a democracy by majority vote form 
the ambassadors.


Regards,

LelandJ


Bob Calco wrote:


!   It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something

! glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you

! that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  
! the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn 
! the public  
! against the war.
! 
! 	It's important to look at these images, and realize 
! that people who  
! are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and


! calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are  
! supporting.
! 
! 
! 
! ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )



It's always fascinating to listen to indoor plumbing spoken of as
something civilized and wonderful, when those who have worked in
sewage plants know that the shit really stinks. Yet our pro-sanitation
media is filtering out the disturbing images one can easily find in
any city waste disposal plant on the planet, so as not to turn the
public against indoor plumbing.

It's important to look at these images, and realize people who are
calling for more water and sewage treatment plants are endorsing these
images, and are calling for more of them. No sugar coating; this is
what they are supporting.

http://www.cormix.info/images/3,NGSPicturePak%2335,Sewage.jpg
http://www.sas.org.uk/pr/images04/sewage.jpg
http://www.pepa.com.hk/gallery/photos/pollution/SEWAGE.jpg
http://www.enviro-lynx.com/stock-photography/images/Sewage%20Overflow.
jpg
http://www.allanindustries.com/images/Sewage-1.jpg
http://www.holidaytravelwatch.net/Images/gallery/photos/Original%20Fil
es/San%20Andres%20raw%20sewage%20swamp.JPG
http://www.cleansafeservices.co.uk/sewage.phtm
http://www.afpc.org/images2/DPIS0904/sewage.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/icandigital/sewage.jpg

On a serious note, appeals to emotion and impugning of motives are
part of Ed's famous double standard (OK if he does it, if others do it
from a different perspective they're twits); nevertheless, I should
like to clarify that I am not in favor of blowing up women and
children. I am in favor of blowing up terrorists and dictators, who
unfortunately happen to enjoy blowing up women and children. I'm also
in favor of other people -- yea, even people who aren't white and
don't live in upstate New York -- enjoying economic liberty and
political freedom. This would include even Iraqis.

The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib. The idea is that
ther

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Dominic Burford]

<< The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib

Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor plumbing to war?
To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or resulted in
civil war.  How many women and children have been killed from indoor
plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the mark in bad taste here Bob.

I understand the point you are making, and why.  But I do not see how
cheapening the deaths of Iraqi civilians to an analogy with indoor
plumbing moves the issue forward.

Regards

Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 

* Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Calco
Sent: 20 June 2006 02:35
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war

!   It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something

! glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you

! that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out !
the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn ! the public
! against the war.
! 
!   It's important to look at these images, and realize 
! that people who
! are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and

! calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are !
supporting.
! 
! <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
! 
! ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )


It's always fascinating to listen to indoor plumbing spoken of as
something civilized and wonderful, when those who have worked in sewage
plants know that the shit really stinks. Yet our pro-sanitation media is
filtering out the disturbing images one can easily find in any city
waste disposal plant on the planet, so as not to turn the public against
indoor plumbing.

It's important to look at these images, and realize people who are
calling for more water and sewage treatment plants are endorsing these
images, and are calling for more of them. No sugar coating; this is what
they are supporting.

http://www.cormix.info/images/3,NGSPicturePak%2335,Sewage.jpg
http://www.sas.org.uk/pr/images04/sewage.jpg
http://www.pepa.com.hk/gallery/photos/pollution/SEWAGE.jpg
http://www.enviro-lynx.com/stock-photography/images/Sewage%20Overflow.
jpg
http://www.allanindustries.com/images/Sewage-1.jpg
http://www.holidaytravelwatch.net/Images/gallery/photos/Original%20Fil
es/San%20Andres%20raw%20sewage%20swamp.JPG
http://www.cleansafeservices.co.uk/sewage.phtm
http://www.afpc.org/images2/DPIS0904/sewage.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/icandigital/sewage.jpg

On a serious note, appeals to emotion and impugning of motives are part
of Ed's famous double standard (OK if he does it, if others do it from a
different perspective they're twits); nevertheless, I should like to
clarify that I am not in favor of blowing up women and children. I am in
favor of blowing up terrorists and dictators, who unfortunately happen
to enjoy blowing up women and children. I'm also in favor of other
people -- yea, even people who aren't white and don't live in upstate
New York -- enjoying economic liberty and political freedom. This would
include even Iraqis.

The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib. The idea is that
there is dirty work in any worthwhile civilized thing, some of which is
not for the weak of stomach. The people we are engaged in fighting are
literally scum of the earth---truly bloodthirsty thugs with no regard
for humanity or the rules of war let alone the Marcus of Queensbury
rules we're supposed to use when confronting them. This inclination to
want to paint our soldiers and our leaders in that conspiratorial and
clandestine light, as if the poor hapless Saddams and Zarqawis and Kim
Il Sungs and mullahs of the world are innocent -- what was Bill's term?
-- _casualties_ of the "warmongers" in Washington is offensive to me,
but alas, people are entitled to hold their opinions, however silly.

I don't support innocent people losing their lives in these
conflicts---but how do you avoid that and still confront the thugs and
murderers who thrive on it? No, Kofi Annan isn't the answer; not even
close. You can't negotiate with these murderers. What's your bright
idea? I think knocking out regimes that support them and helping the
formerly oppressed people get on their own feet is a noble thing, albeit
riskier than negotiating with dictators for cheap oil and turning a
blind eye to their repressive regimes (which was what we did for decades
previously).

Anyway thanks Ed for the opportunity to 

Re: [OT] Images of war

[petetheisen]

Ed Leafe wrote:
It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something  
glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you  
that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  the 
disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the public  
against the war.


It's important to look at these images, and realize that people who  
are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and  
calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are  
supporting.




( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )


Hi Ed!

The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
intervened in Iraq.


Regards,

Pete


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

Re: [OT] Images of war

[petetheisen]

Leland Jackson wrote:

This should be a job for the UN.


Hi Leland!

Indeed, it should. However, the UN in its 50 plus years of history has 
never really done anything of lasting importance. Came close with Audrey 
Hepburn's save the children campaign, but even she died trying rather 
than succeeding.


Regards,

Pete


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

Re: [OT] Images of war

[petetheisen]

Dominic Burford wrote:

<< The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib

Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor plumbing to war?
To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or resulted in
civil war.  How many women and children have been killed from indoor
plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the mark in bad taste here Bob.

I understand the point you are making, and why.  But I do not see how
cheapening the deaths of Iraqi civilians to an analogy with indoor
plumbing moves the issue forward.


Hi Dominic!

It seems that Ed's issue, that you seem to think Bob should for some 
reason move forward, is that it is time to give up to the insurgents or 
perhaps to the Democrats. I really, really don't think Bob intents to 
move that issue forward at all.


All deaths are cheap, every one of us has one. It is more important to 
make your life count, if you can. If the Iraqis had been doing that, 
they would have thrown off Saddam's yoke themselves.


Regards,

Pete


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Dave Crozier]

 


( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
 

Pete
Personally, I think that rather than the media hide these images from the
public, they should be allowed to see them in graphic detail. Only in this
way will the politicians and groundswell of apathetic people come to terms
with the fact that war is NOT a neat and tidy affair played out on an Xbox.

We ask our soldiers to see scenes like this all the time and then pillory
them when they either over react in the battlefield or suffer a stress
related reaction having returned from active service.

 It is OK politicians pontificating all the want about their own "moral
crusade" - but crusades cost lives and yes I know that the majority of the
armed forces are in the job because they choose to be, as I was in the past.
However, that does not allow people who have never been in a battlefield
scenario to place  them in "impossible situations" and then decry their
reactions. Yes, maltreatment of prisoners is inhuman as is wilfull slaughter
of innocent civilials, but it has to be put into context agains the number
of "correct" missions which are completed on a daily basis. 

The armed forces are simply a collection of individuals - they are not
perfect. Weed out the bad bunch and I include certain high ranking military
officials in that group but at the same time don't forget to give PROPER
backing and support to all the good guys out there who are only trying to do
their job DESPITE the constant interference of meddling do-gooders who
should experience the futility of any war before they pontificate so
strongly.

Dave Crozier
"A computer is a stupid machine with the ability to do incredibly smart
things, while computer programmers are smart people with the ability to
do incredibly stupid things. They are, in short, a perfect match"  -
Bill Bryson   

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.1/369 - Release Date: 19/06/2006
 




___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Bob Calco]

! << The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib
! 
! Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor plumbing to
war?

Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?

Because we are not 'making war' for the sake of killing people so that
we can have more misery and death captured on gruesome photographs, as
Ed crudely claims. He is appealing to emotion---the natural human
reaction to seeing the images---and impugning motives (as if to say,
see what monsters they are, the people who support this policy) in
order to set up an unsound syllogism---"To be for the policy of
liberating Iraq from the terrorists and thugs you must be for babies
getting killed and families torn apart. Since no human can possibly be
for that (just look at the gruesome images and ask your own heart!),
people who support the policy must be inhumane."

He was analogously saying that people who ostensibly advocate
something positive (say, indoor plumbing) REALLY advocate its dark
side (more stink and sewage).


! To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or 
! resulted in
! civil war.  How many women and children have been killed from indoor
! plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the mark in bad 
! taste here Bob.

I think I was using the analogy to illustrate the absurdity of Ed's
renowned and esteemed logic. Ed was the one IMHO who stepped over the
line.

I don't advocate hiding the images and the reality of war's dark side,
but I also think the desire to use them in the way Ed and then Dave
Crozier advocates is simply because they know the images can be used
to cloud logic with emotion to the benefit of their policy position.

Fine propagandize all you want with the images (people use this tactic
all the time, regardless of political persuasion)---not even knowing
(as the author of the article admitted he didn't know) when or how
most of the images came about. The implication was that they were all
victims of American bombing, but in case you didn't notice most of the
bombs in the last three years have been going off because Iraqi
reactionaries and foreign terrorists have been engaged in a campaign
to produce as many of those pictures as they can in order to weaken
our resolve to defeat them and reassert authoritarian control over the
Iraqi population.

The only people who advocate those images are the terrorists and
people over here who want to use them for the same purpose as the
terrorists: to defeat the people who advocate democratic reform in the
middle east.

! 
! I understand the point you are making, and why.  But I do not see
how
! cheapening the deaths of Iraqi civilians to an analogy with indoor
! plumbing moves the issue forward.

I don't see how accusing people who support the policy of wanting more
of those images depicting human tragedy in the ME moves the issue
forward either. I can speak for my own motivations, I don't need Ed
explaining to everybody what I "really" think.

It's funny how these same people object to constantly showing pictures
of the twin towers collapsing, or Iraqis with their hands chopped off
or husbands being executed and wives and daughters being raped by
Hussein's thugs, or images of the people Saddam gassed, or pictures of
the mass burials and beheadings in Iraq. (Other images that the media
doesn't display often enough.) Obviously, if Ed's logic were true,
people who oppose the policy are for *more* of *that*. 

- Bob

! 
! Regards
! 
! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 
! 
! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
! * [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
! 
! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
design:
! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no 
! deficiencies, and
! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
! 
! 
! -Original Message-
! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
! Behalf Of Bob Calco
! Sent: 20 June 2006 02:35
! To: 'ProFox Email List'
! Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war
! 
! ! It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something
! 
! ! glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell
you
! 
! ! that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out
!
! the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn ! 
! the public
! ! against the war.
! ! 
! ! It's important to look at these images, and realize 
! ! that people who
! ! are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images,
and
! 
! ! calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are
!
! supporting.
! ! 
! ! <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
! ! 
! ! ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
! 
! 
! It's always fascinating to listen to indoor plumbing spoken of as
! something civilized and wonderful, when those 

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Dominic Burford]

<< Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?

Now who's getting all shrill ;-)

Bob, as I said, I *do* get your point, but I just think in this instance
it was cheap.

Regards

Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 

* Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Calco
Sent: 20 June 2006 11:55
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war


! << The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib ! 
! Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor plumbing to war?

Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?

Because we are not 'making war' for the sake of killing people so that
we can have more misery and death captured on gruesome photographs, as
Ed crudely claims. He is appealing to emotion---the natural human
reaction to seeing the images---and impugning motives (as if to say, see
what monsters they are, the people who support this policy) in order to
set up an unsound syllogism---"To be for the policy of liberating Iraq
from the terrorists and thugs you must be for babies getting killed and
families torn apart. Since no human can possibly be for that (just look
at the gruesome images and ask your own heart!), people who support the
policy must be inhumane."

He was analogously saying that people who ostensibly advocate something
positive (say, indoor plumbing) REALLY advocate its dark side (more
stink and sewage).


! To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or !
resulted in ! civil war.  How many women and children have been killed
from indoor ! plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the mark in bad !
taste here Bob.

I think I was using the analogy to illustrate the absurdity of Ed's
renowned and esteemed logic. Ed was the one IMHO who stepped over the
line.

I don't advocate hiding the images and the reality of war's dark side,
but I also think the desire to use them in the way Ed and then Dave
Crozier advocates is simply because they know the images can be used to
cloud logic with emotion to the benefit of their policy position.

Fine propagandize all you want with the images (people use this tactic
all the time, regardless of political persuasion)---not even knowing (as
the author of the article admitted he didn't know) when or how most of
the images came about. The implication was that they were all victims of
American bombing, but in case you didn't notice most of the bombs in the
last three years have been going off because Iraqi reactionaries and
foreign terrorists have been engaged in a campaign to produce as many of
those pictures as they can in order to weaken our resolve to defeat them
and reassert authoritarian control over the Iraqi population

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Bob Calco]

! << Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?
! 
! Now who's getting all shrill ;-)

That's not shrill, that's "wondering how to get past three inches of
bone to help the message sink in"... ;)

! 
! Bob, as I said, I *do* get your point, but I just think in 
! this instance
! it was cheap.

Let me try one more time, because I think you are judging my intent
_completely_ incorrectly.

I was not making an analogy comparing the images to indoor plumbing,
and thereby "cheapening" the former. I was using that absurd example
to expose the absurdity of Ed's alleged logic. 

You can't say you get it if you still think it was cheap in the way
you describe, as if I was somehow making a statement about the images
themselves. I was being openly fecetious, but I was also being
serious, about Ed's use of those images to score some kind of
political point.

I consider Ed's use of those images as a "cheap" shot against those of
us whose positions are a bit more nuanced than "we want more pictures
of dead children".

THAT is what I think is "cheap" and frankly sewage was an awkward but
appropriate analogy since that's what I think of Ed's argument. 

I'm curious why you don't find his assertion "cheap"...

- Bob

! 
! Regards
! 
! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 
! 
! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
! * [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
! 
! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
design:
! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no 
! deficiencies, and
! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
! 
! 
! -Original Message-
! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
! Behalf Of Bob Calco
! Sent: 20 June 2006 11:55
! To: 'ProFox Email List'
! Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war
! 
! 
! ! << The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib ! 
! ! Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor 
! plumbing to war?
! 
! Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?
! 
! Because we are not 'making war' for the sake of killing people so
that
! we can have more misery and death captured on gruesome photographs,
as
! Ed crudely claims. He is appealing to emotion---the natural human
! reaction to seeing the images---and impugning motives (as if 
! to say, see
! what monsters they are, the people who support this policy) 
! in order to
! set up an unsound syllogism---"To be for the policy of liberating
Iraq
! from the terrorists and thugs you must be for babies getting 
! killed and
! families torn apart. Since no human can possibly be for that 
! (just look
! at the gruesome images and ask your own heart!), people who 
! support the
! policy must be inhumane."
! 
! He was analogously saying that people who ostensibly advocate 
! something
! positive (say, indoor plumbing) REALLY advocate its dark side (more
! stink and sewage).
! 
! 
! ! To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or !
! resulted in ! civil war.  How many women and children have been
killed
! from indoor ! plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the 
! mark in bad !
! taste here Bob.
! 
! I think I was using the analogy to illustrate the absurdity of Ed's
! renowned and esteemed logic. Ed was the one IMHO who stepped over
the
! line.
! 
! I don't advocate hiding the images and the reality of war's dark
side,
! but I also think the desire to use them in the way Ed and then Dave
! Crozier advocates is simply because they know the images can 
! be used to
! cloud logic with emotion to the benefit of their policy position.
! 
! Fine propagandize all you want with the images (people use this
tactic
! all the time, regardless of political persuasion)---not even 
! knowing (as
! the author of the article admitted he didn't know) when or how most
of
! the images came about. The implication was that they were all 
! victims of
! American bombing, but in case you didn't notice most of the 
! bombs in the
! last three years have been going off because Iraqi reactionaries and
! foreign terrorists have been engaged in a campaign to produce 
! as many of
! those pictures as they can in order to weaken our resolve to 
! defeat them
! and reassert authoritarian control over the Iraqi population
! 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Dominic Burford]

<<
I was not making an analogy comparing the images to indoor plumbing, and
thereby "cheapening" the former. I was using that absurd example to
expose the absurdity of Ed's alleged logic. 
>>

Bob

I get it, I just don't agree with it.  

Ed posted a link to a site which contained distressing images of war.
War is not pretty, and so the images were hardly expected to be anything
else either.  My only objection to Ed's post was his use of the word
"endorse".  I am sure nobody involved in this war openly advocates such
images, and perhaps another word would have been more appropriate.  

What I found offensive was your decision to use this post to score a
point about Ed's tactic for debate.  While you may not have referred to
their content directly, it was an inappropriate post to use to make
*any* point. IMO of course!

You are obviously surprised that I do not agree with you, but there you
go.

Regards

Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 

* Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Calco
Sent: 20 June 2006 12:52
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war



! << Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?
! 
! Now who's getting all shrill ;-)

That's not shrill, that's "wondering how to get past three inches of
bone to help the message sink in"... ;)

! 
! Bob, as I said, I *do* get your point, but I just think in ! this
instance ! it was cheap.

Let me try one more time, because I think you are judging my intent
_completely_ incorrectly.

I was not making an analogy comparing the images to indoor plumbing, and
thereby "cheapening" the former. I was using that absurd example to
expose the absurdity of Ed's alleged logic. 

You can't say you get it if you still think it was cheap in the way you
describe, as if I was somehow making a statement about the images
themselves. I was being openly fecetious, but I was also being serious,
about Ed's use of those images to score some kind of political point.

I consider Ed's use of those images as a "cheap" shot against those of
us whose positions are a bit more nuanced than "we want more pictures of
dead children".

THAT is what I think is "cheap" and frankly sewage was an awkward but
appropriate analogy since that's what I think of Ed's argument. 

I'm curious why you don't find his assertion "cheap"...

- Bob

! 
! Regards
! 
! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer ! 
! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
! * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
! 
! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
design:
! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no ! deficiencies,
and ! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious ! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980 ! 
! 
! -Original Message-
! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On !
Behalf Of Bob Calco ! Sent: 20 June 2006 11:55 ! To: 'ProFox Email List'
! Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war
! 
! 
! ! << The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib ! 
! ! Of course it is.  How can you possibly compare indoor ! plumbing to
war?
! 
! Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?
! 
! Because we are not 'making war' for the sake of killing people so that
! we can have more misery and death captured on gruesome photographs, as
! Ed crudely claims. He is appealing to emotion---the natural human !
reaction to seeing the images---and impugning motives (as if ! to say,
see ! what monsters they are, the people who support this policy) ! in
order to ! set up an unsound syllogism---"To be for the policy of
liberating Iraq ! from the terrorists and thugs you must be for babies
getting ! killed and ! families torn apart. Since no human can possibly
be for that ! (just look ! at the gruesome images and ask your own
heart!), people who ! support the ! policy must be inhumane."
! 
! He was analogously saying that people who ostensibly advocate !
something ! positive (say, indoor plumbing) REALLY advocate its dark
side (more ! stink and sewage).
! 
! 
! ! To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or !
! resulted in ! civil war.  How many women and children have been killed
! from indoor ! plumbing?  I think you have over stepped the ! mark in
bad !
! taste here Bob.
! 
! I think I was using the analogy to illustrate the absurdity of Ed's

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Bob Calco]

! 
! <<
! I was not making an analogy comparing the images to indoor 
! plumbing, and
! thereby "cheapening" the former. I was using that absurd example to
! expose the absurdity of Ed's alleged logic. 
! >>
! 
! Bob
! 
! I get it, I just don't agree with it.  
! 
! Ed posted a link to a site which contained distressing images of
war.
! War is not pretty, and so the images were hardly expected to 
! be anything
! else either.  My only objection to Ed's post was his use of the word
! "endorse". 

Which was the entire point of his post.

! I am sure nobody involved in this war openly 
! advocates such
! images, and perhaps another word would have been more appropriate.  

Well convince Ed of that---he seems persuaded otherwise.

! 
! What I found offensive was your decision to use this post to score a
! point about Ed's tactic for debate. 

So we're not allowed to question someone's absurd assertions when
distressing photos are involved? Since when is debate disallowed when
someone makes a debatable point?

! While you may not have 
! referred to
! their content directly, it was an inappropriate post to use to make
! *any* point. IMO of course!

Well on that we certainly do not agree. Ed posted them to make such
cheap point; I rebutted with an absurd analogy to illustrate why his
point was cheap.

And your complaint is that I was being cheap. You must understand how
strangely that sounds to me.

! 
! You are obviously surprised that I do not agree with you, but 
! there you
! go.

No I'm not surprised you don't agree with me. I am surprised that you
think what I did was somehow worse than what Ed did. Esp. if you are
honest when you say it's wrong to make any point involving those
pictures. Ed was not just piously showing woozy photos of dead people
in commemoration or something---he was saying that those images are
what I and other supporters are FOR. I called bulls*t on, literally
and figuratively, and you say I'm the one being cheap.

:\

You aren't taking Ed head-on with what was objectionable to you about
his post. I would take your delicate sensibilities on this point a bit
more seriously if you weren't using Ed's post as a soapbox from which
to take pot shots at my attempt at reductio ad absurdam against, not
the photos, but Ed's political point in using them.

- Bob

! 
! Regards
! 
! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 
! 
! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
! * [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
! 
! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
design:
! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no 
! deficiencies, and
! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
! 
! 
! -Original Message-
! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
! Behalf Of Bob Calco
! Sent: 20 June 2006 12:52
! To: 'ProFox Email List'
! Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war
! 
! 
! 
! ! << Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out?
! ! 
! ! Now who's getting all shrill ;-)
! 
! That's not shrill, that's "wondering how to get past three inches of
! bone to help the message sink in"... ;)
! 
! ! 
! ! Bob, as I said, I *do* get your point, but I just think in ! this
! instance ! it was cheap.
! 
! Let me try one more time, because I think you are judging my intent
! _completely_ incorrectly.
! 
! I was not making an analogy comparing the images to indoor 
! plumbing, and
! thereby "cheapening" the former. I was using that absurd example to
! expose the absurdity of Ed's alleged logic. 
! 
! You can't say you get it if you still think it was cheap in 
! the way you
! describe, as if I was somehow making a statement about the images
! themselves. I was being openly fecetious, but I was also 
! being serious,
! about Ed's use of those images to score some kind of political
point.
! 
! I consider Ed's use of those images as a "cheap" shot against those
of
! us whose positions are a bit more nuanced than "we want more 
! pictures of
! dead children".
! 
! THAT is what I think is "cheap" and frankly sewage was an awkward
but
! appropriate analogy since that's what I think of Ed's argument. 
! 
! I'm curious why you don't find his assertion "cheap"...
! 
! - Bob
! 
! ! 
! ! Regards
! ! 
! ! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
! ! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer ! 
! ! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
! ! * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
! ! 
! ! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
! design:
! ! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no ! 
! deficiencies,
! and ! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
! obvious ! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980 ! 

Re: [OT] Images of war

[Michael Madigan]

Show the Americans incinerated in 911

--- petetheisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ed Leafe wrote:
> > It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something  
> > glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you  
> > that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  the 
> > disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the public  
> > against the war.
> > 
> > It's important to look at these images, and realize that people who  
> > are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and  
> > calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are  
> > supporting.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
> 
> Hi Ed!
> 
> The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
> deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
> intervened in Iraq.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Michael Madigan]

Show the movies of Americans jumping out of the World Trade Center.  We don't 
see these images
anymore.



--- Dave Crozier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  
> 
> 
> ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
>  
> 
> Pete
> Personally, I think that rather than the media hide these images from the
> public, they should be allowed to see them in graphic detail. Only in this
> way will the politicians and groundswell of apathetic people come to terms
> with the fact that war is NOT a neat and tidy affair played out on an Xbox.
> 
> We ask our soldiers to see scenes like this all the time and then pillory
> them when they either over react in the battlefield or suffer a stress
> related reaction having returned from active service.
> 
>  It is OK politicians pontificating all the want about their own "moral
> crusade" - but crusades cost lives and yes I know that the majority of the
> armed forces are in the job because they choose to be, as I was in the past.
> However, that does not allow people who have never been in a battlefield
> scenario to place  them in "impossible situations" and then decry their
> reactions. Yes, maltreatment of prisoners is inhuman as is wilfull slaughter
> of innocent civilials, but it has to be put into context agains the number
> of "correct" missions which are completed on a daily basis. 
> 
> The armed forces are simply a collection of individuals - they are not
> perfect. Weed out the bad bunch and I include certain high ranking military
> officials in that group but at the same time don't forget to give PROPER
> backing and support to all the good guys out there who are only trying to do
> their job DESPITE the constant interference of meddling do-gooders who
> should experience the futility of any war before they pontificate so
> strongly.
> 
> Dave Crozier
> "A computer is a stupid machine with the ability to do incredibly smart
> things, while computer programmers are smart people with the ability to
> do incredibly stupid things. They are, in short, a perfect match"  -
> Bill Bryson   
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.1/369 - Release Date: 19/06/2006
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Adam Buckland]

Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead. 

There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you keep
trying to draw one...



-Original Message-
From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 June 2006 13:57
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: Re: [OT] Images of war

Show the Americans incinerated in 911

--- petetheisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ed Leafe wrote:
> > It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something 
> > glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you 
> > that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  
> > the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the 
> > public against the war.
> > 
> > It's important to look at these images, and realize that people 
> > who are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, 
> > and calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they 
> > are supporting.
> > 
> > <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
> > 
> > ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
> 
> Hi Ed!
> 
> The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
> deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
> intervened in Iraq.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[stephen . russell]

> From: "Adam Buckland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead.
>
> There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you keep
> trying to draw one...

If he says it often enough in toady's society it may become true?

Bad Steve.



___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Dominic Burford]

<< toady's

And which toad would that be?

Bad Dominic.

Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP
Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer 

* Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074
*   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 June 2006 15:06
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war

> From: "Adam Buckland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead.
>
> There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you 
> keep trying to draw one...

If he says it often enough in toady's society it may become true?

Bad Steve.



___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list:
http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of
the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid
to see the obvious.

__
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
__

__
Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group plc

Registered Office:  Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road, Aerospace Centre, 
Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP  Registered No: 1601542

This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and any files 
transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the 
individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail 
in error you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. 
Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.

Pegasus Software Limited utilises an anti-virus system and therefore any files 
sent via e-mail will have been checked for known viruses. You are however 
advised to run your own virus check before opening any attachments received as 
Pegasus Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability whatsoever 
once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.

This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
__


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Michael Madigan]

Oh yeah, no link at all.There was no link between the US and Russia in WWII 
either.

--- Adam Buckland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead. 
> 
> There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you keep
> trying to draw one...
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: 20 June 2006 13:57
> To: ProFox Email List
> Subject: Re: [OT] Images of war
> 
> Show the Americans incinerated in 911
> 
> --- petetheisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Ed Leafe wrote:
> > > It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something 
> > > glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you 
> > > that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out  
> > > the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the 
> > > public against the war.
> > > 
> > > It's important to look at these images, and realize that people 
> > > who are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, 
> > > and calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they 
> > > are supporting.
> > > 
> > > <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
> > > 
> > > ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
> > 
> > Hi Ed!
> > 
> > The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
> > deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
> > intervened in Iraq.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Pete
> > 
> > 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

Re: [OT] Images of war

[petetheisen]

Dave Crozier wrote:
 



( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
 


Pete
Personally, I think that rather than the media hide these images from the
public, they should be allowed to see them in graphic detail.


Hi Dave!

Looks like they are allowing the public to see them. It isn't like we 
had to have security clearance or anything to get to them. I don't think 
we even had to get on the spam list.


Regards,

Pete


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

Re: [OT] Images of war

[petetheisen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: "Adam Buckland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead.

There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you keep
trying to draw one...



If he says it often enough in toady's society it may become true?


Hi Bad Steve!

It already is true. We have to keep refuting the lie that it isn't.

Regards,

Pete


___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Adam Buckland]

Simple link, We were all on the same side..

I have proof of that link, where is the proven link between 911 and
Iraq?

-Original Message-
From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 21 June 2006 04:02
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war

Oh yeah, no link at all.There was no link between the US and Russia
in WWII either.

--- Adam Buckland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead. 
> 
> There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you 
> keep trying to draw one...
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 20 June 2006 13:57
> To: ProFox Email List
> Subject: Re: [OT] Images of war
> 
> Show the Americans incinerated in 911
> 
> --- petetheisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Ed Leafe wrote:
> > > It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something 
> > > glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell 
> > > you that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering

> > > out the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the

> > > public against the war.
> > > 
> > > It's important to look at these images, and realize that 
> > > people who are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these

> > > images, and calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is 
> > > what they are supporting.
> > > 
> > > <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
> > > 
> > > ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
> > 
> > Hi Ed!
> > 
> > The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
> > deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
> > intervened in Iraq.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Pete
> > 
> > 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.

RE: [OT] Images of war

[Michael Madigan]

It's called common sense chief.

--- Adam Buckland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Simple link, We were all on the same side..
> 
> I have proof of that link, where is the proven link between 911 and
> Iraq?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: 21 June 2006 04:02
> To: ProFox Email List
> Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war
> 
> Oh yeah, no link at all.There was no link between the US and Russia
> in WWII either.
> 
> --- Adam Buckland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Why not show the Vietnamese napalmed instead. 
> > 
> > There isn't a link between 911 and Iraq, and whilst you know it you 
> > keep trying to draw one...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael Madigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 20 June 2006 13:57
> > To: ProFox Email List
> > Subject: Re: [OT] Images of war
> > 
> > Show the Americans incinerated in 911
> > 
> > --- petetheisen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Ed Leafe wrote:
> > > > It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something 
> > > > glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell 
> > > > you that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering
> 
> > > > out the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn the
> 
> > > > public against the war.
> > > > 
> > > > It's important to look at these images, and realize that 
> > > > people who are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these
> 
> > > > images, and calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is 
> > > > what they are supporting.
> > > > 
> > > > <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/>
> > > > 
> > > > ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf )
> > > 
> > > Hi Ed!
> > > 
> > > The images are indeed disturbing. However, it is likely that these 
> > > deaths would be even more grisly and more numerous if we had NOT 
> > > intervened in Iraq.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Pete
> > > 
> > > 
[excessive quoting removed by server]

___
Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the 
author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added 
to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.