Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ed Leafe]

On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
>
> Developed and used over two years by a fast-moving online-news  
> operation,
> Django was designed to handle two challenges: the intensive  
> deadlines of a
> newsroom and the stringent requirements of the experienced Web  
> developers
> who wrote it. It lets you build high-performing, elegant Web  
> applications
> quickly.

Django and TurboGears are the two leading web frameworks for Python.  
The python.org site, as well as the Pycon US site, are written in  
Django.

There are several others out there, and that's why we chose our  
niche. Doesn't make sense to have 100 web frameworks and no desktop  
frameworks.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[MB Software Solutions]

Ed Leafe wrote:
> There are several others out there, and that's why we chose our  
> niche. Doesn't make sense to have 100 web frameworks and no desktop  
> frameworks.
>   

So were you guys just omnipotent or do the masses know something that 
you don't (and hence why there's no desktop frameworks for Python)

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
"Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!"



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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ed Leafe]

On Jul 9, 2007, at 4:09 PM, MB Software Solutions wrote:

> So were you guys just omnipotent or do the masses know something that
> you don't (and hence why there's no desktop frameworks for Python)

There were ways to create desktop apps, but they were painful. There  
were ways to connect to databases, but they did not integrate with  
the desktop app tools.

The Python web frameworks all build off of the base Python modules,  
and add things such as integrated database access, templating, etc.  
Dabo builds off existing Python modules, and integrates them into a  
single unified approach to app development.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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RE: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Stephen the Cook]

MB Software Solutions <> wrote:

> So were you guys just omnipotent or do the masses know something that
> you don't (and hence why there's no desktop frameworks for
> Python)  

Because nobody does the desktop anymore.  It's painful and full of to much
crap like "I want it just like my old app"

Everybody avoids the desktop for a reason. Haven't you figured that out yet.
;->


Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

"A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good." ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[MB Software Solutions]

Stephen the Cook wrote:
> MB Software Solutions <> wrote:
>
>   
>> So were you guys just omnipotent or do the masses know something that
>> you don't (and hence why there's no desktop frameworks for
>> Python)  
>> 
>
> Because nobody does the desktop anymore.  It's painful and full of to much
> crap like "I want it just like my old app"
>
> Everybody avoids the desktop for a reason. Haven't you figured that out yet.
> ;->
>
>   

Well that certainly sounds like M$'s marketing in actionthat's why 
it was named "DotNet" I suppose.  

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
"Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!"



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RE: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Jeff Johnson]

 -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Stephen the Cook
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:26 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: If dabo did the web would it look like this?
> 
> MB Software Solutions <> wrote:
> 
> > So were you guys just omnipotent or do the masses know something that
> > you don't (and hence why there's no desktop frameworks for
> > Python)
> 
> Because nobody does the desktop anymore.  It's painful and full of to much
> crap like "I want it just like my old app"
> 
> Everybody avoids the desktop for a reason. Haven't you figured that out
> yet.
> ;->
> 
> 
> Stephen Russell
> DBA / .Net Developer
> 
> Memphis TN 38115
> 901.246-0159
> 
> "A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
> can do them absolutely no good." ---Unknown
> 
> http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/
> 

Nobody does desktop any more?  Good luck Steve.  FoxPro has been a great
opportunity for us for years because of desktop applications.  I do quite
well with them, and I see a great future in it.  There are literally
thousands of opportunities for companies to do desktop applications where
they have limited or no internet access; or security is a major concern.  I
work with fortune 100 companies and they like what I do for them.  They
don't want to automate Outlook, or have their financial information
available to everyone on the web.  Major corporations are concerned about
security and I don't mean people surfing the internet.  A balance between
desktop and web seems to be what I am involved in most these days.  Follow
Ed to a Python conference and see how "painful" it is.  Maybe there are no
database frameworks because no one can do it!  Dabo is no trivial
undertaking!

I love you man and you are a champ in the kitchen, but why do you hang
around here anyway?  

Jeff Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
623-582-0323
Fax 623-869-0675


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Pete Theisen]

On Monday 09 July 2007 23:43, Jeff Johnson wrote:

>  -Original Message-
> I love you man and you are a champ in the kitchen, but why do you hang
> around here anyway?

Hi Jeff!

Likes to brag on his ribs. That and the green hat. :-)
-- 
Regards,

Pete
http://www.pete-theisen.com/


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ted Roche]

On 7/10/07, Jeff Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nobody does desktop any more?  Good luck Steve.

Jeff, please don't feed the troll. Stephen gotcha. I guess you didn't
see his smile. This was an attempt at irony. Or satire. Or farse. With
Stephen, it's so hard to tell.

> Major corporations are concerned about
> security and I don't mean people surfing the internet.

That's interesting. Do you maintain there is actually a difference
between a desktop app and a web-browser-based app in terms of
security?

> Follow Ed to a Python conference and see how "painful" it is.

>  Maybe there are no database frameworks because no one can do it!

There are lots of _database_ frameworks. Take a look at SQLAlchemy.
The Object-Relational-Management-Systems (ORMs) are taking over the
universe. It's seems like everyone and their brother thinks they can
make one. One in a hundred is actually on to something.

As for _desktop_ frameworks, there are a lot of different toolkits
available for the graphics (GTK+, Qt, wxWidgets, Tk), database
interfaces (from ORMs to ODBC) and scripting languages to glue them
all together. Thousands of desktop apps are out there right now. Ed
and Paul and the dabo crew are trying to build a more integrated stack

> Dabo is no trivial undertaking!

Very true. And a awesome job they are doing.

> I love you man and you are a champ in the kitchen, but why do you hang
> around here anyway?

I'll be interested in the answer to that one, too. For me, I enjoy the
high-level discussion of development issues. I still recall a little
bit about FoxPro to share here and there. And there's always MB to
hassle. Despite belonging to another half-dozen LUG lists, Python
lists, Ruby lists, and developer groups, this list still has some of
the best [NF] discussions.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Peter Cushing]

Ted Roche wrote:
>> Major corporations are concerned about
>> security and I don't mean people surfing the internet.
>> 
>
> That's interesting. Do you maintain there is actually a difference
> between a desktop app and a web-browser-based app in terms of
> security?
>
>   
My take on that was that he meant it was very much more secure if it 
doesn't go outside the building!
I know you can still use web based apps just LAN based but why would you 
bother?
> Despite belonging to another half-dozen LUG lists, Python
> lists, Ruby lists, and developer groups, this list still has some of
> the best [NF] discussions.
>   
I'm just starting to play with Linux to do some simple things with and 
see how difficult/easy it is.
Do you have a recommendation for a Linux list for a newbie?

Peter



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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ed Leafe]

On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Peter Cushing wrote:

> Do you have a recommendation for a Linux list for a newbie?

http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/prolinux

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Peter Cushing]

Ed Leafe wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Peter Cushing wrote:
>
>   
>> Do you have a recommendation for a Linux list for a newbie?
>> 
>
>   
Ah yes,  I'd forgotten about that.  Is it well subscribed?

Peter



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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ted Roche]

On 7/10/07, Peter Cushing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My take on that was that he meant it was very much more secure if it
> doesn't go outside the building!

I think you are falling for the castle-and-moat model. The fact is
that electrons go in and out of the building at a phenomenal rate, and
through a lot of holes - telephony, TCP/IP, wireless, etc. Travelling
salesman "dial in" while on the road, CxOs operate their desktop from
their Blackberries, remote users dial in from home computers. There is
no moat.

> I know you can still use web based apps just LAN based but why would you
> bother?

Because the very next words out of the PHB's mouth after you deploy
the rich client application is "How can the salesman on the road use
this app?" or "How do we let the satellite office in Phoenix enter
data?" or "How can the London office connect?" or "How can I get this
app to work on my Palm Treo?"

> I'm just starting to play with Linux to do some simple things with and
> see how difficult/easy it is.
> Do you have a recommendation for a Linux list for a newbie?

Ed's ProLinux is far more friendly than most. I also recommend a local
user group and encourage them to start a Newbie-Night if they don't
already have one.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ed Leafe]

On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Peter Cushing wrote:

> Ah yes,  I'd forgotten about that.  Is it well subscribed?

Ted's on it. What more do you need?  ;-)

Currently there are 83 subscribers.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Peter Cushing]

Ted Roche wrote:
> Because the very next words out of the PHB's mouth after you deploy
> the rich client application is "How can the salesman on the road use
> this app?" or "How do we let the satellite office in Phoenix enter
> data?" or "How can the London office connect?" or "How can I get this
> app to work on my Palm Treo?"
>
>   
Fortunately we don't have a PHB, so design a nice desktop app and you 
can use it outside the building with some terminal server software.  We 
also have an offline version that people can put orders on with, then 
import them later.
As for the palm treo - unlucky :-D
>> I'm just starting to play with Linux to do some simple things with and
>> see how difficult/easy it is.
>> Do you have a recommendation for a Linux list for a newbie?
>> 
>
> Ed's ProLinux is far more friendly than most. I also recommend a local
> user group and encourage them to start a Newbie-Night if they don't
> already have one.
>
>   
Right, sold.  I'll join up now.

Peter




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RE: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Jeff Johnson]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Ted Roche
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 7:30 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?
> 
> On 7/10/07, Peter Cushing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My take on that was that he meant it was very much more secure if it
> > doesn't go outside the building!
> 
> I think you are falling for the castle-and-moat model. The fact is
> that electrons go in and out of the building at a phenomenal rate, and
> through a lot of holes - telephony, TCP/IP, wireless, etc. Travelling
> salesman "dial in" while on the road, CxOs operate their desktop from
> their Blackberries, remote users dial in from home computers. There is
> no moat.
> 

Ted:  Maybe security was not the correct word.  Security, reliability, "up
time", "plan B" is more what I meant but that is more than one word.  For
example:  Not all of my customers have internet access, but they all have
network access to terminal servers and data file servers.  In fact this is
typical to my applications.  All of my applications do payroll for hundreds
of employees at tens of locations.  I have one app entirely on terminal
services and the others are on the desktop accessing files on the network.
If a network is going to go down, it will go down during the 6 hour window
for processing payroll on Monday morning.  Since the network relies on phone
lines, I have seen all four sites in Hawaii go down on payroll day.  So I
have built contingency plans into my applications that will allow processing
of payroll when the network is down.  When the application that is on
terminal services is down, that's it.  There is nothing people can do until
the network is restored.

I also allow for some temporary local storage in addition to network storage
for the same reason.  Have you ever asked IT for a major corporation to
restore a file from backup?  Doesn't matter if its SQL server or VFP tables,
you will not get it in time to be responsive.

My applications are using web services, sending email notifications and ftp,
connecting to remote databases; but the desktop application is the hub for
all of the activity.

While this may not be considered "best practices", this is what my
applications have evolved into and reliability is a key feature. 

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
623-582-0323
Fax 623-869-0675



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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ted Roche]

On 7/10/07, Jeff Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I also allow for some temporary local storage in addition to network storage
> for the same reason.  Have you ever asked IT for a major corporation to
> restore a file from backup?  Doesn't matter if its SQL server or VFP tables,
> you will not get it in time to be responsive.
>
> My applications are using web services, sending email notifications and ftp,
> connecting to remote databases; but the desktop application is the hub for
> all of the activity.
>
> While this may not be considered "best practices", this is what my
> applications have evolved into and reliability is a key feature.

Jeff:

I don't think we have any disagreement here. My clients who are
running "web" apps are using an browser to view pages generated by a
web server on their own network from a database server on their own
(intranet) network. If their DSL connection is unavailable, the app
continues unperturbed. The off-site backup doesn't work until the DSL
is restored, but they can continue to function. Remote users can't
access the app when the line is dark, but the in-house
line-of-business app keeps chugging away.

I have had clients that "had to have" internet connectivity, and they
can pay for multiple connections to servers with multiple trunks to
the internet, redundancy, fail-over routers, etc. For most of my
(relatively small) clients, this is overkill and over-bill.

Now, if only we could figure out a way to get them more reliable
electrical power...

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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RE: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Stephen the Cook]

Jeff Johnson <> wrote:

> I also allow for some temporary local storage in addition to network
> storage for the same reason.  Have you ever asked IT for a major
> corporation to restore a file from backup?  Doesn't matter if its SQL
> server or VFP tables, you will not get it in time to be responsive.   
> 
> My applications are using web services, sending email notifications
> and ftp, connecting to remote databases; but the desktop application
> is the hub for all of the activity.  
> 
> While this may not be considered "best practices", this is what my
> applications have evolved into and reliability is a key feature. 

At my current gig we are talking about much the same thing.  Deliver data in
a webservice style for auto information and keep the local business owner
data local.

This is AutoZone and the brand I deal with is Alldata. 



Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

"A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good." ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ken Dibble]

> > My take on that was that he meant it was very much more secure if it
> > doesn't go outside the building!
>
>I think you are falling for the castle-and-moat model. The fact is
>that electrons go in and out of the building at a phenomenal rate, and
>through a lot of holes - telephony, TCP/IP, wireless, etc. Travelling
>salesman "dial in" while on the road, CxOs operate their desktop from
>their Blackberries, remote users dial in from home computers. There is
>no moat.
>
> > I know you can still use web based apps just LAN based but why would you
> > bother?
>
>Because the very next words out of the PHB's mouth after you deploy
>the rich client application is "How can the salesman on the road use
>this app?" or "How do we let the satellite office in Phoenix enter
>data?" or "How can the London office connect?" or "How can I get this
>app to work on my Palm Treo?"

Perhaps the defining consideration is, what sort of organization is it? 
There are literally millions of organizations in the world that can use 
customized database software that do not and will never have a traveling 
salesperson, a London office, or a need for people to walk around with 
crackberries glued to their fingers. These are the organizations for whom 
web applications provide nowhere near enough benefit to compensate for 
their eternally clunky, slow, and inflexible nature.

This is where desktop apps are needed, it's the arena toward which VFP was 
targeted, and it's a huge market that now no longer has a single major 
player serving it.

Ken Dibble
www.stic-cil.org


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[MB Software Solutions]

Ted Roche wrote:
> I'll be interested in the answer to that one, too. For me, I enjoy the
> high-level discussion of development issues. I still recall a little
> bit about FoxPro to share here and there. And there's always MB to
> hassle. Despite belonging to another half-dozen LUG lists, Python
> lists, Ruby lists, and developer groups, this list still has some of
> the best [NF] discussions.
>
>   

I'm glad to be of good use to you, TR, even if not for tech stuff.  

I agree with your statement though about good discussionswell, some 
of them!

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
"Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!"



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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ted Roche]

On 7/10/07, Ken Dibble <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the defining consideration is, what sort of organization is it?
> There are literally millions of organizations in the world that can use
> customized database software that do not and will never have a traveling
> salesperson, a London office, or a need for people to walk around with
> crackberries glued to their fingers.

Sure. I made my living for fifteen years writing those apps. We still
support a bunch of them.

> These are the organizations for whom
> web applications provide nowhere near enough benefit to compensate for
> their eternally clunky, slow, and inflexible nature.

How long does it take your app to boot? How long does it take to
navigate to a web site?

Web development has not stood still. Well written web apps are fast,
smooth and flexible. It's a horse race, and that's a good thing -
everyone improves. Clients are running wickedly fast CPUs, more memory
and disk space are becoming standard, and loading great big runtimes
in a browser has become more reasonable.

> This is where desktop apps are needed, it's the arena toward which VFP was
> targeted, and it's a huge market that now no longer has a single major
> player serving it.

There will always be a place for more than one kind of app, and that's
a Good Thing. I am really looking forward to an opportunity to deploy
a dabo app, for just those reasons.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: If dabo did the web would it look like this?

[Ken Dibble]

> > These are the organizations for whom
> > web applications provide nowhere near enough benefit to compensate for
> > their eternally clunky, slow, and inflexible nature.
>
>How long does it take your app to boot? How long does it take to
>navigate to a web site?

Celeron 1.12 GHz
256 MB RAM
Win 98 SE
Internet connection is some portion of a T1, ranging up to 50%.
LAN is 10/100 Mbps. The servers are right in my office.
LAN web server: Pentium III, SCSI, 500 MHz, 750 MB RAM, NT 4.0 SP 6, IIS
Application data server: AMD Sempron 1.86 GHz, 512 MB RAM, CentOS w/ SAMBA

Application boot:

My app, from mouse click to login screen: 9 seconds (first try--nothing 
cached; on subsequent tries the time is about halved)

Browser Startup:

Firefox 1.5
from mouse click to very simple homepage (www.stic-cil.org) fully 
displayed: 13 seconds (first try--nothing cached)

IE 5.5 SP 2

from mouse click to homepage fully displayed: 5 seconds (first try--nothing 
cached) -- but, of course, if I had a web app I wouldn't want people using IE.

Application main window:

My app, which uses VFP native data on the server, from login screen to main 
data entry window (including 3 mouse clicks and quite a bit of time for the 
main window to appear; much of the display is data-driven, and the window 
retrieves and displays a full recordset when it opens): 13.5 seconds with 
multiple users logged in (takes less time if I'm the only user). I know 
it's slow; in my defense, I haven't really made an effort to optimize it yet.

Websites of similar complexity to my app:

www.yankees.com -- well, this was probably slow this morning for some 
reason; it still wasn't fully loaded after 30 seconds in Firefox 1.5 or IE 
5.5. It's usually in the 20-second range, though.

Universal Thread, in Firefox 1.5 - from link click to full load of the main 
page: 8 seconds. From login to display of forum messages: 7 seconds.

Websites on my LAN:

SL Mail Pro administration page -- In IE (won't run in other browsers)  to 
get the login page, 3 seconds; from login to completed display, 5 seconds. 
But this page has only a handful of controls. To do anything useful, you 
have to navigate through a few levels of a treeview, each of which takes 
2-3 seconds just to open.

Trend Micro Officescan administration page -- 7 seconds to get the login 
screen, 3 seconds to get the main page, in IE (won't run in other 
browsers). This one is fairly impressive, since the main page has colorful 
pie charts that are generated on the fly. But it's not as complex as my 
main data entry window, and to do anything interactive takes 2-3 seconds to 
display a page and 2-3 seconds to submit actions--for each type of action.

Websites create an impression of speed by generating small pages, but then 
force the user to navigate through several pages, each of which takes a 
couple of seconds to generate, to accomplish any complex task. In my app 
there's no additional time cost to do anything in the main window except 
save or retrieve a recordset. You can carry out dozens of edits, including 
getting data from several lookup lists, as fast as you can use the keyboard 
or mouse.

>Web development has not stood still. Well written web apps are fast,
>smooth and flexible. It's a horse race, and that's a good thing -
>everyone improves. Clients are running wickedly fast CPUs, more memory
>and disk space are becoming standard, and loading great big runtimes
>in a browser has become more reasonable.

And my desktop app would see a similar benefit from a faster machine, as 
would my network if I got faster servers, switches, and NICs. I think my 
app would still be faster, and would achieve that without the cumbersome 
requirement to navigate through many displays to accomplish complex tasks.

> > This is where desktop apps are needed, it's the arena toward which VFP was
> > targeted, and it's a huge market that now no longer has a single major
> > player serving it.
>
>There will always be a place for more than one kind of app, and that's
>a Good Thing. I am really looking forward to an opportunity to deploy
>a dabo app, for just those reasons.

Dabo is where my future lies also--if I can just get the time to play with it.

Ken Dibble
www.stic-cil.org




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