Asking once again about Meterring
Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, originally, back into Reaper. I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value anyway. Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in the mix. This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as his vocal started, I let it run for about 20 seconds, then, without pausing, I had him hit Alt+F9 to query the peek meter on first track. Note that actually, the vocal was the second track in the project, and his karaoke music was the first, but he was focused on the second reaper track as being selected with his arrow keys up and down. I had him try alt+F10 as well for the second track though, and got the same results, so I don't know that's entirely our issue. Anyway, both are showeing around -21.9DB for the peek. Obviously, I then had him hit Alt+F8 to reset the watch meters. I don't get it though! Hitting J and K are telling us he's around -21DB as well. When I had him lower the level in the watcher settings, I told him when level reaches, instead of putting -12, try some really overexagerated thing like -30. He did this, created a new track, armed it, started talking in the mike, and boom! it worked beautifully! It told
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of the audio file it self not the track fader. > On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > wrote: > > Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we > can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the > most responses. > > Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite > frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in > fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, > who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what > I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. > > Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine > start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I > said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. > LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! > > Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. > > One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain > staging. > > What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too > hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, > leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master > fader. He gets this concept entirely. > > What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. > > First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar > with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included > his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. > > Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. > > In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his > vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the > long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper > right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! > > In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume > fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where > the peek meters hold infinent until reset. > > On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at > -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust > me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds > terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the > strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! > > I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, > originally, back into Reaper. > > I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with > CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track > to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to > hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value > anyway. > > Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of > thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around > negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a > compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in > the mix. > > This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for > that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. > - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. > > So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play > the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! > that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would > automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened > at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It > sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! > > Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with > the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his > vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as > his vocal started, I let it run for about 20 seconds, then, without pausing, > I had him hit Alt+F9 to query the peek meter on first track. Note that > actually, the vocal was the second track in the project, and his karaoke > music was the first, but he was focused on the second reaper track as being > selected with his arrow keys up and down. I had him try alt+F10 as well for > the second track though, and got the same r
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
So, I'm then confused what the point is of the track fader? --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: TheOreoMonster To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of the audio file it self not the track fader. On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, originally, back into Reaper. I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value anyway. Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in the mix. This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as his vocal started, I let it run for about 20 seconds, then, without
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Also, I believe the track would have been post fader, but there were no sends on it. --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: TheOreoMonster To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of the audio file it self not the track fader. On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, originally, back into Reaper. I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value anyway. Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in the mix. This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as his vocal started, I let it run for about 2
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Track fader brings down the volume of the track yes but this is post processing. So for example if you use the track fader to bring down the volume of a loud file, and take a post fader meter reading it may reflect that the level has been lowered. However if you take a pre fader reading you will see that the track is still at the previously loud volume. This means that the file will hit any processing put o that track hot and will probably have to compensate by turning down the input/output gain in all the plug ins placed on that track. If you use Trin/Item Volume/Region Gain to bring the level down to a reasonable place first it will hit the plug ins at a reasonable level and you probably won’t end up having to play with the plug ins input and output gains as much. And as it relates to your current Delia If one DAW is taking its readings pre fader and the other is taking it post fader and you used the tracks fader to bring the volume down then that could explain the vast differences you are experiencing. > On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > wrote: > > So, I'm then confused what the point is of the track fader? > --- > Christopher Gilland > Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries > > http://www.gshministry.org <http://www.gshministry.org/> > (980) 500-9575 >> - Original Message - >> From: TheOreoMonster <mailto:monkeypushe...@gmail.com> >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com <mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM >> Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring >> >> The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? >> Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, >> Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of >> the audio file it self not the track fader. >>> On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland >>> mailto:clgillan...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we >>> can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the >>> most responses. >>> >>> Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite >>> frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in >>> fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told >>> me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not >>> what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. >>> >>> Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine >>> start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend >>> I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. >>> LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! >>> >>> Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. >>> >>> One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain >>> staging. >>> >>> What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too >>> hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, >>> leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master >>> fader. He gets this concept entirely. >>> >>> What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the >>> stems. >>> >>> First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most >>> familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems >>> which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. >>> >>> Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. >>> >>> In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his >>> vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the >>> long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing >>> Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! >>> >>> In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output >>> volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools >>> set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. >>> >>> On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at >>> -1DB. So, he's rea
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Sends generally wouldn’t affect a tracks meter reading. As its sending a duplicate copy of the audio off to a completely different track so to speak. You would have to check the meter on the send itself to see how loud that send is. Effects on the track however could affect the meter reading . > On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > wrote: > > Also, I believe the track would have been post fader, but there were no sends > on it. > --- > Christopher Gilland > Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries > > http://www.gshministry.org <http://www.gshministry.org/> > (980) 500-9575 >> - Original Message - >> From: TheOreoMonster <mailto:monkeypushe...@gmail.com> >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com <mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM >> Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring >> >> The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? >> Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, >> Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of >> the audio file it self not the track fader. >>> On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland >>> mailto:clgillan...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we >>> can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the >>> most responses. >>> >>> Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite >>> frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in >>> fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told >>> me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not >>> what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. >>> >>> Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine >>> start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend >>> I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. >>> LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! >>> >>> Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. >>> >>> One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain >>> staging. >>> >>> What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too >>> hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, >>> leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master >>> fader. He gets this concept entirely. >>> >>> What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the >>> stems. >>> >>> First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most >>> familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems >>> which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. >>> >>> Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. >>> >>> In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his >>> vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the >>> long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing >>> Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! >>> >>> In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output >>> volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools >>> set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. >>> >>> On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at >>> -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And >>> trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it >>> sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but >>> here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! >>> >>> I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, >>> originally, back into Reaper. >>> >>> I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with >>> CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second >>> track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Chris, Your friend must have something in the signal chain. I just generated a sine wave with 0.5 amplitude on Audacity and exported to a wave file. I imported into Pro Tools, and it correctly reads -6db. I imported the same file to Reaper, and it also reads -6db. I imported to Logic, and it reads -6db. Audacity, Pro Tools, Logic, Reaper all read exactly at -6db. If your curious why -6db, the math is 20*log10(0.5). It's approximately -6.02... There should be no difference between different DAWs as far as peak meter goes. Chi On 7/27/2017 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, originally, back into Reaper. I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value anyway. Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in the mix. This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened at all. Oh, we could hear the clipping all right! Oh baby could we ever! It sounded disgusting! But, the watcher yielded nothing! Finally, In Reaper, I told him, Ronald, try something for me. I told him with the watcher set, hit W to go to the beginning of the song. Note that his vocal track only contained 1 item. We then hit space bar to play. As soon as his vocal started, I let it run for about 20 seconds, then, without pausing, I had him hit Alt+F9 to query the peek meter on first track. Note that actually, the vocal was the second track in the project, and his karaoke music was the first, but he was focused on the second reaper track as being selected with his arrow keys up and down. I had him try alt+
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Actually, the level is staying the same on the audio track regardless if I move the volume fader up or down. Now obviously, the meter changes accordingly on my master fader, but not on the actual audio track itself when playing it back. --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: TheOreoMonster To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:31 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring Track fader brings down the volume of the track yes but this is post processing. So for example if you use the track fader to bring down the volume of a loud file, and take a post fader meter reading it may reflect that the level has been lowered. However if you take a pre fader reading you will see that the track is still at the previously loud volume. This means that the file will hit any processing put o that track hot and will probably have to compensate by turning down the input/output gain in all the plug ins placed on that track. If you use Trin/Item Volume/Region Gain to bring the level down to a reasonable place first it will hit the plug ins at a reasonable level and you probably won’t end up having to play with the plug ins input and output gains as much. And as it relates to your current Delia If one DAW is taking its readings pre fader and the other is taking it post fader and you used the tracks fader to bring the volume down then that could explain the vast differences you are experiencing. On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: So, I'm then confused what the point is of the track fader? --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: TheOreoMonster To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the level of the audio file it self not the track fader. On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Then those track meter readings are pre fader. > On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > wrote: > > Actually, the level is staying the same on the audio track regardless if I > move the volume fader up or down. Now obviously, the meter changes > accordingly on my master fader, but not on the actual audio track itself when > playing it back. > --- > Christopher Gilland > Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries > > http://www.gshministry.org <http://www.gshministry.org/> > (980) 500-9575 >> - Original Message - >> From: TheOreoMonster <mailto:monkeypushe...@gmail.com> >> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com <mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:31 PM >> Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring >> >> Track fader brings down the volume of the track yes but this is post >> processing. So for example if you use the track fader to bring down the >> volume of a loud file, and take a post fader meter reading it may reflect >> that the level has been lowered. However if you take a pre fader reading you >> will see that the track is still at the previously loud volume. This means >> that the file will hit any processing put o that track hot and will >> probably have to compensate by turning down the input/output gain in all the >> plug ins placed on that track. If you use Trin/Item Volume/Region Gain to >> bring the level down to a reasonable place first it will hit the plug ins at >> a reasonable level and you probably won’t end up having to play with the >> plug ins input and output gains as much. >> >> And as it relates to your current Delia If one DAW is taking its readings >> pre fader and the other is taking it post fader and you used the tracks >> fader to bring the volume down then that could explain the vast differences >> you are experiencing. >>> On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland >>> mailto:clgillan...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> So, I'm then confused what the point is of the track fader? >>> --- >>> Christopher Gilland >>> Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries >>> >>> http://www.gshministry.org <http://www.gshministry.org/> >>> (980) 500-9575 >>>> - Original Message - >>>> From: TheOreoMonster <mailto:monkeypushe...@gmail.com> >>>> To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com <mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:20 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring >>>> >>>> The first question I’d ask is where are the meter reading being taken >>>> from? Pre fader, post fader etc. Also you will want to use Trim in Pro >>>> tools, Item volume in reaper, and region gain in logic to bring down the >>>> level of the audio file it self not the track fader. >>>>> On Jul 27, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland >>>>> mailto:clgillan...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so >>>>> we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting >>>>> me the most responses. >>>>> >>>>> Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite >>>>> frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, >>>>> in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, >>>>> told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. >>>>> that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank >>>>> answers here. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of >>>>> mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the >>>>> friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally >>>>> different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. >>>>> >>>>> One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal >>>>> gain staging. >>>>> >>>>> What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too >>>>> hot, you'll start clipping, and even if
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
There is absolutely nothing in the signal chain. I looked about 20 times, literally! No inserts on the track, no sends, and it's outputting straight to the audio interface, not to a bus, or another track, or anything of sort. --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: Chi Kim To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring Chris, Your friend must have something in the signal chain. I just generated a sine wave with 0.5 amplitude on Audacity and exported to a wave file. I imported into Pro Tools, and it correctly reads -6db. I imported the same file to Reaper, and it also reads -6db. I imported to Logic, and it reads -6db. Audacity, Pro Tools, Logic, Reaper all read exactly at -6db. If your curious why -6db, the math is 20*log10(0.5). It's approximately -6.02... There should be no difference between different DAWs as far as peak meter goes. Chi On 7/27/2017 12:27 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Sorry for the crosspost, but I'm wanting to also put this on PTAccess so we can approach this from both DAW angles, and to help leverage getting me the most responses. Guys, I asked this question on list about 2 or 3 months ago, and quite frankly, I never ever got a very direct answer. Everyone who did answer, in fact, some of which you'd never imagine saying this on the RWP list, told me, who cares, just use your ears, and let them be your guide. that's not what I'm seeking here. I really want some true and frank answers here. Here's the situation. I am trying to help an incredibly dear friend of mine start up learning audio production, and by the way, no, it's not the friend I said who cannot do audio worth a damn. This is someone totally different. LOL! This guy actually is very very very open to suggestions! Anyway, he hasn't done anything at all when it comes to pro grade audio. One of the things that we now are working on is microphone lead vocal gain staging. What I'm trying to get him to see is that if you record into your DAW too hot, you'll start clipping, and even if you don't! clip the vocal track, leave not enough headroom, and in the long run, you'll clip your master fader. He gets this concept entirely. What we did is, he sent me a recording he did in Reaper. He sent me the stems. First, I loaded it up actually in ProTools as it's the DAW I'm most familiar with. But, the point is, he sent me the unprocessed raw stems which included his vocal that he initially recorded in Reaper. Here's where things went absolutely awri kurfunkity wacko jacko. In ProTools, I interacted with the track channel strip that contains his vocals. Note that right now, I don't have Flowtools installed. Yes, in the long run, this message is ProTools related even though I'm discussing Reaper right now. Please please I beg you, stick with me on this! In this track strip, I navigated one VO+right arrow passed the output volume fader for that track, and landed on the peek meter. I have ProTools set where the peek meters hold infinent until reset. On the loudest peek of his vocal, ProTools indicates that he's peeking at -1DB. So, he's really really really hot! Really no headroom at all. And trust me. I can hear it too! It sounds God aweful! Even he! agrees it sounds terrible. How to fix this is another issue in and of itself, but here is the strange thing that I just! can't! fathom! I imported these exact same stem wav files that were created in Reaper, originally, back into Reaper. I then had him, using Osara, go into the peek meter watcher settings with CTRL+Shift+W. Essentially, we set both combo boxes for first and second track to follow current. We checked both boxes to watch the tracks. I set it to hold the meter until reset, which I think was the default radio button value anyway. Finally, when level reaches, I had him set this to minus 12. My reason of thinking was, if he can come into the DAW from his interface at around negative 12DB, that gives plenty of headroom, and we then could use a compressor, or other means later in the mixing phase to get that vocal up in the mix. This is how I was tought to do it with ProTools, or really with any DAW, for that mind. Record in low, then later adjust and compensate for the gain loss. - Don't try starting out by going in at a really hot level. So, anyway, I then after setting up the meter watcher in Reaper had 'em play the recording. Because in ProTools, he was peeking at -1DB, I was hoping! that the peek watcher in Reaper would pick up on this, and would automatically without him doing anything let him know. Well, nothing happened
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
You might not have anything in the signal chain on your end, but whoever recorded said track must have had something in their signal chain and printed it in the track. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pro Tools Accessibility" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Asking once again about Meterring
Gotcha. --- Christopher Gilland Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries http://www.gshministry.org (980) 500-9575 - Original Message - From: Kevin Reeves To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Asking once again about Meterring You might not have anything in the signal chain on your end, but whoever recorded said track must have had something in their signal chain and printed it in the track. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pro Tools Accessibility" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Pro Tools Accessibility" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.