Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[René Dudfield]

Thanks Michael :)

Using recommendations/ratings sounds like a good idea to me. So far we have
ratings in our commenting system and a <3 button on the projects with the
Disquss comment system. So, we could use those for browsing projects. This
of course usually brings a race for people trying to game the system to get
to the top of the results list... but maybe that won't happen if we do it
right.


best,




On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 4:53 AM, Michael Lutinsky <
mich...@callthecomputerdoctor.com> wrote:

> This is all very excellent to hear! Right on!
>
>
>
> > For *exploring projects* in a creative interesting way, does anyone have
>
> > any ideas? One idea was a big tag cloud that morphs around, somehow being
>
> > used to view different parts of the pygame project galaxy. I'm going to
> put
>
>
> Maybe have the rating system determine which projects get pushed to the
> top of a list or tag cloud? Because we have some excellent projects (just
> discovered the Loderunner RPG, wow!) which I otherwise would’ve missed if I
> didn’t keep checking in on the project feed.
>
>
>
> You’re doing great. Ignore the angry comments; there are those like me who
> have nothing but appreciation for what you’re doing!
>
>
>
> ~ Michael
>
>
>

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Michael Lutinsky]

This is all very excellent to hear! Right on!

> For *exploring projects* in a creative interesting way, does anyone have
> any ideas? One idea was a big tag cloud that morphs around, somehow being
> used to view different parts of the pygame project galaxy. I'm going to put



You’re doing great. Ignore the angry comments; there are those like me who have 
nothing but appreciation for what you’re doing!

~ Michael 

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Al Sweigart]

So, what you want for website design is something familiar which follows
normal conventions. "Intuitive" really boils down to "like the stuff I've
seen before". There's a lot of design decisions to the site that you just
don't see anywhere else, and this causes confusion.

(Keep in mind, I do intend these comments to be constructive.)

- The categories have unconventional names. You'd expect
About/Download/Documentation/Contribute/Community/News (much like python.org),
rather than show/learn/make/create/collaborate/awesome. The "show" column
is under Create when you'd think it'd be under Show. Make and Create and
Collaborate seem to all have things that would go under a "Contribute" or
"Development" section.

- There is no clear "Download" link for downloading Pygame. You have to go
to the "create" section, find the "downloads" column (this shouldn't take
up an entire column) and click on "download.shtml" (a link that does not
have a clear name). Confusingly, this goes back to a page in the old site
style.

- There is no clear "Documentation" link. The "learn" section doesn't have
a clear link to the API Reference. The "tutorials", "Cookbook", and
"Resources" columns (aside from not having consistent casing) have
overlapping contents. Sometimes they have links, other times they have text
content (in a hard-to-read column). It's hard to find help.

- The section headings' background color has no margins and inconsistent
capitalization (most are all lowercase, but About is capitalized).

- The column format is hard to read. Sliding the columns is confusing (no
other conventional website does this) and unless I have my browser
maximized it's easy to miss column. The transitions are slow and kind of
nauseous to look at.

- The media player and keyboard arrow keys take up important real estate at
the top of the page, but these aren't important enough to have such a prime
spot.

- The navigation names for the top bar are unconventional and confusing. I
don't know what "show" really means, "learn" is normally called
"Documentation", "make" is normally called "Contribute", and the
create/collaborate/awesome seem to be three forms of miscellaneous.

- The search results page is hard to read, there's no separation between
the results, and it seems to cut off early.

- In general there's way too much descriptive text up front. The front page
should mostly just be links to other pages with more detailed information.

The navigation is the most serious problem, and why I think the entire
design doesn't work. The columns may work on mobile, but on the desktop it
looks squished and the sliding transition is slow and disorientating.
Something more conventional would work a lot better. See python.org (which
recently underwent a redesign) for an idea of what pygame.org should be
more like.

Again, I know this sounds harsh and I do point these out to be
constructive. But a lot of these problems are so obvious and large that I
don't think small adjustments can fix them. It reminds me of the car that
Homer Simpson designed in that one episode of The Simpsons, where he had
several cool ideas for what a car should be, but when put together it was
completely unworkable. The old site design works much better, and I think
any professional web designer would agree.

-Al

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:37 PM, René Dudfield  wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> yes *dog fooding* is a pretty useful motivator!
>
> I'll address each of your good feedback points (plus a few thrown in from
> other people).
>
> Many people are comfortable with 90s website design(including me), and
> there's work in progress to create this too as the lofi version. Very much
> like the existing website (which still functions now).
>
>-
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages
>
>
> *Finding documentation*. Yes, this needs to be improved. If you search
> for "documentation" it's the first result. If you go the the "learn"
> section the Documentation link is there, however a lot of other things are
> taking up space. I think I'll bold the documentation link there. (or
> someone else feel free to change it in the wiki). If you type pygame docs
> in your location bar of your browser you get there. Knowing how many people
> go directly to the documentation of pygame rather than through the website,
> I know for sure this is how people get there.  A "*getting started*"
> section is something I've been thinking about quite a bit, and have designs
> and drawings for.  This contains most of your getting started stuff. Like
> documentation and installation. When thinking on how to do the new
> downloads page 'Downloading' things is not how people should be getting
> started with pygame... mostly. pip install, apt-get install.
>
>-
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152/downloads-for-website-via-a-repository
>- https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/259/downloads-do-not-work
>-
>https://bitbucket.o

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[René Dudfield]

Hi Ian,

yes *dog fooding* is a pretty useful motivator!

I'll address each of your good feedback points (plus a few thrown in from
other people).

Many people are comfortable with 90s website design(including me), and
there's work in progress to create this too as the lofi version. Very much
like the existing website (which still functions now).

   -
   
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages


*Finding documentation*. Yes, this needs to be improved. If you search for
"documentation" it's the first result. If you go the the "learn" section
the Documentation link is there, however a lot of other things are taking
up space. I think I'll bold the documentation link there. (or someone else
feel free to change it in the wiki). If you type pygame docs in your
location bar of your browser you get there. Knowing how many people go
directly to the documentation of pygame rather than through the website, I
know for sure this is how people get there.  A "*getting started*" section
is something I've been thinking about quite a bit, and have designs and
drawings for.  This contains most of your getting started stuff. Like
documentation and installation. When thinking on how to do the new
downloads page 'Downloading' things is not how people should be getting
started with pygame... mostly. pip install, apt-get install.

   -
   
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152/downloads-for-website-via-a-repository
   - https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/259/downloads-do-not-work
   - https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/261/getting-started-section


*Adding a project* is still done through the old mechanism, but I will make
that more clear. Probably by making an "Add your project" link at the top
that just goes to the old new project page until the various new forms are
done. *Sharing via pypi* and listing from pypi is also very important. We
don't want to be a completely different python projects island.

   -
   https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/262/share-work-add-new-project


*Contributions to the website*, can be increased by one of my sprint goals
to open up much of the code (baring a few secret bits like passwords and
unfinished parts). Basically I'll try and *publish all website code on the
pygame bitbucket* but also on pypi and for the JavaScript stuff on jquery
plugins website and bower(like pip for front end javascript stuff). There's
already a couple of bits public. If you know how to do jquery plugins, then
you can contribute new features quite easily. However, this site can be
contributed to in many other ways not possible on other websites. There's
over 500 items of content on there done by other people, with hundreds of
contributors. Not only that, but there are a number of open website issues
in which people can already contribute to the website. I hope the *API of
public pygame.org  data* will also allow people to do
their own projects with pygame website data more easily.

   -
   
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/263/make-pygame-website-codes-public


For *exploring projects* in a creative interesting way, does anyone have
any ideas? One idea was a big tag cloud that morphs around, somehow being
used to view different parts of the pygame project galaxy. I'm going to put
a column section up like http://pygame.org/tags/ where you can browse
through them, and also a page which has tags just like that page, followed
by lists.

   -
   
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages
   -
   
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/264/creative-interactive-project-exploration

Project pages are another area where I really want to concentrate on,
because that will provide a lot more value for people making things. Stuff
like github, and bitbucket integration, and linking to their blogs and
youtube feeds etc. I hope this can help with *collaboration* more. But also
when we can things from the projects like videos, blog posts, commits, etc
and aggregate them for people -- that feeds interesting content into the
main pygame website.

*Finding libraries*, should really go more in a direction of pypi. Part of
this is getting pygame itself installable via pypi (almost there!). But we
should also point out useful libraries and "spotlighted" projects better.
There are already a list of some projects in the "awesome" section.

   - https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/265/finding-libraries




Thanks also to the people who have written bug reports in the issue
tracker. Also, thank you to the people who have written words of
encouragement - very welcome amongst a barrage of criticism (most of it
constructive, useful, and thought out -- but at other times hostile, jerky
or unreasoned).

It's still very much a work in progress, but one where progress is now
happening every day. I want pygame to be a safe place where people who make
things can create stuff with each others sup

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Daniel Foerster]

Agreed. Note my similar analysis: 
https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/260/issues-with-hifi-website

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Patrick Mullen]

I don't know if starting over or reverting is better than movement. At this
point any movement is good. I would rather see us build on something that
people are building on than try and get a project going (which keeps not
seeming to go anywhere). But the new layout is pretty tough to swallow. I
remember commenting as such before when this design was proposed - I
thought it was abandoned. It's appalling on many levels:

Horizontal scrolling is not fun, keeping reading left-right and scrolling
up-down helps us compartmentalize better. Having so many different,
unrelated pieces of content in one screen is distracting and confusing.
While scrolling over you may suddenly, without warning, find yourself on a
different section of the site, and you have to look up at the menu to even
know which section you are on, because they all look the same. The width of
the users browser fundamentally changes how the site feels. At the
fullscreen view that I normally browse in, I see about half of the "about"
module. It's super distracting! When reading through the reddit content, my
eye keeps being pulled over to the about, and then I can't even read it
because it is cut off. And then, when I go over to the "learn" section, the
question and answer module is cut-off. So if I want Q+A, I have to click on
"learn" and then click on the "right arrow". It is unintuitive and clunky
at the same time. If you are going to make it clunky, it might as well be
consistently clunky.

The priority of which content is displayed where doesn't feel right. The
first page should be about helping newcomers figure out what pygame is,
whether they should use it, and where they can get help. Content you want
to see shouldn't be cut off on the sides of the screen forcing you to
scroll around to find it. If you scroll down just a little, you lose all
context of which section you are in, as well as what any of the modules are!

I don't get the music player. It doesn't seem to fit.

General color scheme, fonts, and layout look ugly. Sorry to say.

Some ideas to fix it:

* Rather than squish all "sections" on the same window, keep them separate.
Don't allow scrolling between sections, just update the div with each
section
* Include a table of contents in each section to show which modules are
available. It's painful to have to horizontal scroll several times to even
see what's there.
* I would actually stick with the tried-and-true content column + sidebar
column style. You can have the more important modules in the left column
with more width, and stack them vertically, with less important ones on the
side, also stacked vertically. For example, learn would have on the left:
about + tutorial + cookbook, and then on the right: help and a shorter
length list of q+a (which can be expanded potentially?)
* Ditch music player or have a link to pop one up in a new window if people
want it.

... for a start.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Luke Paireepinart 
wrote:

> Al,
> What sort of mistakes are you talking about and where do you draw the line
> of starting over vs. fixing mistakes?
> --------------
> From: Al Sweigart 
> Sent: ‎8/‎18/‎2015 5:57 PM
> To: pygame-users@seul.org
> Subject: Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend
>
> I highly recommend switching to the old site and abandoning this design.
> There's a lot of things about the new design that don't work from a design
> & usability perspective.
>
> It's clear that a lot of work has gone into the new site, and I don't want
> to disparage these efforts. But the end result is a site that is worse than
> the previous one. Honestly, I don't think the new design can be salvaged.
> It's best to cut losses, go back to the old design for now, and try again.
>
> Again, this criticism sounds blunt and rough, but the new design has
> several large mistakes that any web designer would point out. There were
> issues with the old site, but I think the best course of action is to
> switch back to it and abandon this new design.
>
> -Al
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Jeffrey Danowitz 
> wrote:
>
>> I know that sadly I have not been a big participant in all the amazing
>> things happening lately in PyGame.
>>
>> However, I think that the new site is absolutely amazing and wonderful. I
>> am not an expert in making usable websites. I am just talking from my own
>> personal experience after having my jaws drop at the plethora of material
>> included in the site. I think that those who worked on this and actually
>> did the work should be congratulated. It’s really an awesome experience to
>> come to this new site and see how this project has developed.
>>
>> I would be happy to find out about things that need

RE: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Luke Paireepinart]

Al,
What sort of mistakes are you talking about and where do you draw the line of 
starting over vs. fixing mistakes?

-Original Message-
From: "Al Sweigart" 
Sent: ‎8/‎18/‎2015 5:57 PM
To: "pygame-users@seul.org" 
Subject: Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

I highly recommend switching to the old site and abandoning this design. 
There's a lot of things about the new design that don't work from a design & 
usability perspective.


It's clear that a lot of work has gone into the new site, and I don't want to 
disparage these efforts. But the end result is a site that is worse than the 
previous one. Honestly, I don't think the new design can be salvaged. It's best 
to cut losses, go back to the old design for now, and try again.



Again, this criticism sounds blunt and rough, but the new design has several 
large mistakes that any web designer would point out. There were issues with 
the old site, but I think the best course of action is to switch back to it and 
abandon this new design.



-Al



On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Jeffrey Danowitz  
wrote:

I know that sadly I have not been a big participant in all the amazing things 
happening lately in PyGame.


However, I think that the new site is absolutely amazing and wonderful. I am 
not an expert in making usable websites. I am just talking from my own personal 
experience after having my jaws drop at the plethora of material included in 
the site. I think that those who worked on this and actually did the work 
should be congratulated. It’s really an awesome experience to come to this new 
site and see how this project has developed. 


I would be happy to find out about things that need to be done with this 
project that perhaps I can help out with. Feel free to be in touch with me.


Jeff


On Aug 18, 2015, at 17:53 , Paul Vincent Craven  wrote:


I think the site should be formed around the top use cases. I think the book 
"don't make me think" is a wonderful guide to making websites usable.


1.) Download and install pygame
2.) Quick "what is pygame"
3.) Documentation / Sample code
4.) Share user projects
5.) News


I think the main landing page should probably have links to these and not much 
else. Maybe show top news 'below the fold.'




Paul Vincent Craven



On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Sam Bull  wrote:

On Tue, 2015-08-18 at 15:18 +0200, adam.hasv...@free.fr wrote:
> Sam, I think everything you are asking for is there under the first two 
> headers.

I'm not seeing them...

> Recent news on the front page.

This is fine, front and centre.

> Link to documentation and tutorials.

There are a number of confusingly named headers, of which I have no idea
what I'm looking for. When arriving on the home page, I want to see a
docs link in the header, rather than have to decipher that I need the
'learn' header, and then finding the link somewhere in paragraph of
text.

> Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.

I'm not seeing this anywhere. On the old website, this was also not easy
enough to find, nor was the page well maintained/formatted.

> Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.

Recent releases are shown on the home page. I instinctively expect the
header of that to be a link to the full page where I'll be able to
browse projects. But, it is not a link, and I don't see a place to
browse projects.

> Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
> code etc.)

Again, not finding this. The best I see is recent issues and commits.
Again this is not useful to me, and I expect clicking the header to take
me to the actual source and bug tracker sites, but they don't.

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Al Sweigart]

I highly recommend switching to the old site and abandoning this design.
There's a lot of things about the new design that don't work from a design
& usability perspective.

It's clear that a lot of work has gone into the new site, and I don't want
to disparage these efforts. But the end result is a site that is worse than
the previous one. Honestly, I don't think the new design can be salvaged.
It's best to cut losses, go back to the old design for now, and try again.

Again, this criticism sounds blunt and rough, but the new design has
several large mistakes that any web designer would point out. There were
issues with the old site, but I think the best course of action is to
switch back to it and abandon this new design.

-Al

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Jeffrey Danowitz 
wrote:

> I know that sadly I have not been a big participant in all the amazing
> things happening lately in PyGame.
>
> However, I think that the new site is absolutely amazing and wonderful. I
> am not an expert in making usable websites. I am just talking from my own
> personal experience after having my jaws drop at the plethora of material
> included in the site. I think that those who worked on this and actually
> did the work should be congratulated. It’s really an awesome experience to
> come to this new site and see how this project has developed.
>
> I would be happy to find out about things that need to be done with this
> project that perhaps I can help out with. Feel free to be in touch with me.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Aug 18, 2015, at 17:53 , Paul Vincent Craven 
> wrote:
>
> I think the site should be formed around the top use cases. I think the
> book "don't make me think" is a wonderful guide to making websites usable.
>
> 1.) Download and install pygame
> 2.) Quick "what is pygame"
> 3.) Documentation / Sample code
> 4.) Share user projects
> 5.) News
>
> I think the main landing page should probably have links to these and not
> much else. Maybe show top news 'below the fold.'
>
>
> Paul Vincent Craven
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Sam Bull  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2015-08-18 at 15:18 +0200, adam.hasv...@free.fr wrote:
>> > Sam, I think everything you are asking for is there under the first two
>> headers.
>>
>> I'm not seeing them...
>>
>> > Recent news on the front page.
>>
>> This is fine, front and centre.
>>
>> > Link to documentation and tutorials.
>>
>> There are a number of confusingly named headers, of which I have no idea
>> what I'm looking for. When arriving on the home page, I want to see a
>> docs link in the header, rather than have to decipher that I need the
>> 'learn' header, and then finding the link somewhere in paragraph of
>> text.
>>
>> > Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.
>>
>> I'm not seeing this anywhere. On the old website, this was also not easy
>> enough to find, nor was the page well maintained/formatted.
>>
>> > Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.
>>
>> Recent releases are shown on the home page. I instinctively expect the
>> header of that to be a link to the full page where I'll be able to
>> browse projects. But, it is not a link, and I don't see a place to
>> browse projects.
>>
>> > Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
>> > code etc.)
>>
>> Again, not finding this. The best I see is recent issues and commits.
>> Again this is not useful to me, and I expect clicking the header to take
>> me to the actual source and bug tracker sites, but they don't.
>>
>
>
>

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Jeffrey Danowitz]

I know that sadly I have not been a big participant in all the amazing things 
happening lately in PyGame.

However, I think that the new site is absolutely amazing and wonderful. I am 
not an expert in making usable websites. I am just talking from my own personal 
experience after having my jaws drop at the plethora of material included in 
the site. I think that those who worked on this and actually did the work 
should be congratulated. It’s really an awesome experience to come to this new 
site and see how this project has developed. 

I would be happy to find out about things that need to be done with this 
project that perhaps I can help out with. Feel free to be in touch with me.

Jeff

> On Aug 18, 2015, at 17:53 , Paul Vincent Craven  wrote:
> 
> I think the site should be formed around the top use cases. I think the book 
> "don't make me think" is a wonderful guide to making websites usable.
> 
> 1.) Download and install pygame
> 2.) Quick "what is pygame"
> 3.) Documentation / Sample code
> 4.) Share user projects
> 5.) News
> 
> I think the main landing page should probably have links to these and not 
> much else. Maybe show top news 'below the fold.'
> 
> 
> Paul Vincent Craven
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Sam Bull  > wrote:
> On Tue, 2015-08-18 at 15:18 +0200, adam.hasv...@free.fr 
>  wrote:
> > Sam, I think everything you are asking for is there under the first two 
> > headers.
> 
> I'm not seeing them...
> 
> > Recent news on the front page.
> 
> This is fine, front and centre.
> 
> > Link to documentation and tutorials.
> 
> There are a number of confusingly named headers, of which I have no idea
> what I'm looking for. When arriving on the home page, I want to see a
> docs link in the header, rather than have to decipher that I need the
> 'learn' header, and then finding the link somewhere in paragraph of
> text.
> 
> > Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.
> 
> I'm not seeing this anywhere. On the old website, this was also not easy
> enough to find, nor was the page well maintained/formatted.
> 
> > Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.
> 
> Recent releases are shown on the home page. I instinctively expect the
> header of that to be a link to the full page where I'll be able to
> browse projects. But, it is not a link, and I don't see a place to
> browse projects.
> 
> > Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
> > code etc.)
> 
> Again, not finding this. The best I see is recent issues and commits.
> Again this is not useful to me, and I expect clicking the header to take
> me to the actual source and bug tracker sites, but they don't.
> 

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Paul Vincent Craven]

I think the site should be formed around the top use cases. I think the
book "don't make me think" is a wonderful guide to making websites usable.

1.) Download and install pygame
2.) Quick "what is pygame"
3.) Documentation / Sample code
4.) Share user projects
5.) News

I think the main landing page should probably have links to these and not
much else. Maybe show top news 'below the fold.'


Paul Vincent Craven

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Sam Bull  wrote:

> On Tue, 2015-08-18 at 15:18 +0200, adam.hasv...@free.fr wrote:
> > Sam, I think everything you are asking for is there under the first two
> headers.
>
> I'm not seeing them...
>
> > Recent news on the front page.
>
> This is fine, front and centre.
>
> > Link to documentation and tutorials.
>
> There are a number of confusingly named headers, of which I have no idea
> what I'm looking for. When arriving on the home page, I want to see a
> docs link in the header, rather than have to decipher that I need the
> 'learn' header, and then finding the link somewhere in paragraph of
> text.
>
> > Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.
>
> I'm not seeing this anywhere. On the old website, this was also not easy
> enough to find, nor was the page well maintained/formatted.
>
> > Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.
>
> Recent releases are shown on the home page. I instinctively expect the
> header of that to be a link to the full page where I'll be able to
> browse projects. But, it is not a link, and I don't see a place to
> browse projects.
>
> > Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
> > code etc.)
>
> Again, not finding this. The best I see is recent issues and commits.
> Again this is not useful to me, and I expect clicking the header to take
> me to the actual source and bug tracker sites, but they don't.
>

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Sam Bull]

On Tue, 2015-08-18 at 15:18 +0200, adam.hasv...@free.fr wrote:
> Sam, I think everything you are asking for is there under the first two 
> headers.

I'm not seeing them...

> Recent news on the front page.

This is fine, front and centre.

> Link to documentation and tutorials.

There are a number of confusingly named headers, of which I have no idea
what I'm looking for. When arriving on the home page, I want to see a
docs link in the header, rather than have to decipher that I need the
'learn' header, and then finding the link somewhere in paragraph of
text.

> Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.

I'm not seeing this anywhere. On the old website, this was also not easy
enough to find, nor was the page well maintained/formatted.

> Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.

Recent releases are shown on the home page. I instinctively expect the
header of that to be a link to the full page where I'll be able to
browse projects. But, it is not a link, and I don't see a place to
browse projects.

> Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
> code etc.)

Again, not finding this. The best I see is recent issues and commits.
Again this is not useful to me, and I expect clicking the header to take
me to the actual source and bug tracker sites, but they don't.


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Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[adam . hasvers]

I for one rather enjoy the attempt at doing something different; unless the 
site changed since your mail, Sam, I think everything you are asking for is 
there under the first two headers.

I do agree that there are two main problems:

- a reordering and relabeling of the columns and menu buttons would help a lot, 
right now they are somewhat abstruse (make vs create) and in a weird order 
(hacking before spotlighted projetcs). Documentation is definitely not a subset 
of tutorials.

- giving equal importance to crucial and secondary content. Stuff like tweets, 
commits, issues and project comments, while nice to have, probably do not 
deserve taking as much screen space as projects, and probably should not be "in 
the way" in the sense that you have to scroll over them to get somewhere 
interesting (it's probably fine if they are at the "end" though)
=> Making the more important columns closer to "real" pages (wider, more 
clearly delimited, also accessible by name in addition to guessing which header 
they are supposed to fall under), would probably improve the experience 


Cheers,

Adam


- Mail original -
De: "Sam Bull" 
À: pygame-users@seul.org
Envoyé: Mardi 18 Août 2015 06:12:05
Objet: Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

On Mon, 2015-08-17 at 21:57 -0700, Ian Mallett wrote:
> However . . . the new site needs work. It took me five minutes to find
> the documentation, and I still don't know how to add a project. IMO
> the narrow columns and horizontal scrolling are bletcherous too

I agree with this. The only things I want from the Pygame website is:

Recent news on the front page.
Link to documentation and tutorials.
Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.
Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.
Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
code etc.)

Only 1 of these requirements is currently met. I have zero interest in
everything else on the website. If I want to read tweets, I'll follow
pygame on Twitter (which I do), if I want to look at Reddit I'll go to
Reddit, if I want to look at StackOverflow I'll go to StackOverflow
etc..

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Sam Bull]

On Mon, 2015-08-17 at 21:57 -0700, Ian Mallett wrote:
> However . . . the new site needs work. It took me five minutes to find
> the documentation, and I still don't know how to add a project. IMO
> the narrow columns and horizontal scrolling are bletcherous too

I agree with this. The only things I want from the Pygame website is:

Recent news on the front page.
Link to documentation and tutorials.
Link to suggested libraries and utilities to use with Pygame.
Link to page where I can browse interesting Pygame projects.
Link to support locations (mailing list, bug tracker, source
code etc.)

Only 1 of these requirements is currently met. I have zero interest in
everything else on the website. If I want to read tweets, I'll follow
pygame on Twitter (which I do), if I want to look at Reddit I'll go to
Reddit, if I want to look at StackOverflow I'll go to StackOverflow
etc..


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Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Ian Mallett]

​Hi,

First, I think it's great that there's been some attention on the site
(even if it was a pointer switch). I'm comfortable with early 2000s web
design, but I realize not everyone is. The new feel of PyGame is a lot more
like something, if I were a neophyte, I'd want to tinker with.

Second, I think it's good that the new site has been made default. This
will force dogfooding. We should leave it that way.

However . . . the new site needs work. It took me *five minutes* to find
the documentation, and I still don't know how to add a project. IMO the
narrow columns and horizontal scrolling are bletcherous too, but I won't
knock the prototype too much, because what I really want to say is that:

*I propose that the website model be made more open for everyone to change.*
I haven't been keeping up with the list, so I apologize if it's been
answered, but it doesn't look like https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame is
the location for the site. That is, ordinary users can't submit pull
requests for the site itself. I think this would help us move toward a
better website, faster--and one which, by construction, the community would
value.

Ian

Re: [pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[Michael Lutinsky]

Woohoo!!! We have a new site!!! Thank you, René :)


~ Michael 

[pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[René Dudfield]

Oh. Another thing I need to do...

   - youtube integration broke because google disabled the API it was
   using. So I have to use the new youtube APIs now.

Funny thing... the new pygame website has content on it from hundreds of
contributors (maybe 300). With over 600 links to different bits of content.




On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 9:00 PM, René Dudfield  wrote:

> Hellos,
>
> as announced on the website and twitter... I'm going to do another sprint
> this weekend. To coincide with the Berlin creative coding code jam.
>
>
> Last sprint I,
>
>- spent quite some time updating the website code to work on modern
>ubuntu.
>   - this blocked getting anything new deployed.
>   - started on stack overflow integration
>   - it just does an API search based on the pygame tag and returns
>   the latest.
>   - I'm considering having links to sort based highest question etc.
>   - met with a bunch of people into 'creative coding', many of whom
>use processing but also some of which have used pygame before.
>- reworked the wiki rendering code to ouput into static html files.
>   - there's still a bug where extra attributes are added to 
>   tags which causes the travisci build badge to not display.
>   - Added the 'Hacking' wiki page onto the 'make' part of the hifi
>site.
>   - the make part of the website is all about making pygame.
>   - Did some drawings of how the new downloads section could look.
>   - copied all of the binaries from /ftp/ into a new repo.
>- decided to separate out website JS code into various jquery plugins.
>And python code into a python package hosted on pypi/bitbucket. So other
>people can contribute to website development too.
>
> I got a mac setup at home which will be dedicated to mac builds/tests. I'm
> going to keep that mac on the previous version of OS X and keep my main
> development mac on the latest version of OS X. Once this is setup we will
> have at least iOS, OS X, Windows, and Ubuntu being tested. I could also set
> up a build bot for android on the mac build machine as well. Or maybe
> android can be done on travisci?
>
> Also I started writing a proposal to a couple of people from the PSF who
> have been in contact about supporting pygame. I will share a draft publicly
> when it's further along before I start discussing it with them.
>
>
> This weekend I will concentrate on,
>
>- DONE. hifi website deployed as default index page.
>- DONE. basic stack overflow.
>- build bots up and running.
>   - DONE. travisci build badge.
>   - appveyor, set up pygame account, try to get it building.
>   - consider how to get a launchpad build badge image. (rss or
>   scraping, generate image with pygame maybe?)
>   - schedule in some regular development days.
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:49 PM, René Dudfield  wrote:
>
>> https://www.facebook.com/events/1426411697688474/
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:31 AM, René Dudfield  wrote:
>>
>>> Hellos,
>>>
>>> I'm going to the co.up co-working space in Berlin this weekend to work
>>> on pygame stuff. There's a creative coding jam (
>>> http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/222708141/) there,
>>> and also an Open Tech School sessions running with beginner python
>>> programmers (
>>> http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/223058002/ ).
>>> There's often pygame people at these things, so maybe some people will be
>>> interested in helping.
>>>
>>>
>>> My main goals for the sprint:
>>>
>>>- get build page results aggregation up. (so people can easily see
>>>which platforms are failing). Also fix any broken build bots.
>>>https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/154/set-up-more-build-bots
>>>- make new website default for front end. It currently sits on
>>>http://pygame.org/hifi.html
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/252/new-website-default-front-page
>>>- New downloads page design. Driven by a repo holding the binaries.
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152/downloads-for-website-via-a-repository
>>>- get basic 'lofi' separate static html pages generated. (the non
>>>javascript pages)
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages
>>>- pip install related issues.
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/59/pygame-has-no-pypi-page-and-cant-be
>>>- tend the pull request garden.
>>>
>>> If anyone else wants to join in, it'd be good to know what things you're
>>> going to be working on :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, for those not in Berlin... I'll pay some attention to the pygame
>>> irc.
>>>
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>
>>
>

[pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[René Dudfield]

Hellos,

as announced on the website and twitter... I'm going to do another sprint
this weekend. To coincide with the Berlin creative coding code jam.


Last sprint I,

   - spent quite some time updating the website code to work on modern
   ubuntu.
  - this blocked getting anything new deployed.
  - started on stack overflow integration
  - it just does an API search based on the pygame tag and returns the
  latest.
  - I'm considering having links to sort based highest question etc.
  - met with a bunch of people into 'creative coding', many of whom use
   processing but also some of which have used pygame before.
   - reworked the wiki rendering code to ouput into static html files.
  - there's still a bug where extra attributes are added to  tags
  which causes the travisci build badge to not display.
  - Added the 'Hacking' wiki page onto the 'make' part of the hifi site.
  - the make part of the website is all about making pygame.
  - Did some drawings of how the new downloads section could look.
  - copied all of the binaries from /ftp/ into a new repo.
   - decided to separate out website JS code into various jquery plugins.
   And python code into a python package hosted on pypi/bitbucket. So other
   people can contribute to website development too.

I got a mac setup at home which will be dedicated to mac builds/tests. I'm
going to keep that mac on the previous version of OS X and keep my main
development mac on the latest version of OS X. Once this is setup we will
have at least iOS, OS X, Windows, and Ubuntu being tested. I could also set
up a build bot for android on the mac build machine as well. Or maybe
android can be done on travisci?

Also I started writing a proposal to a couple of people from the PSF who
have been in contact about supporting pygame. I will share a draft publicly
when it's further along before I start discussing it with them.


This weekend I will concentrate on,

   - DONE. hifi website deployed as default index page.
   - DONE. basic stack overflow.
   - build bots up and running.
  - DONE. travisci build badge.
  - appveyor, set up pygame account, try to get it building.
  - consider how to get a launchpad build badge image. (rss or
  scraping, generate image with pygame maybe?)
  - schedule in some regular development days.



best,



On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:49 PM, René Dudfield  wrote:

> https://www.facebook.com/events/1426411697688474/
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:31 AM, René Dudfield  wrote:
>
>> Hellos,
>>
>> I'm going to the co.up co-working space in Berlin this weekend to work on
>> pygame stuff. There's a creative coding jam (
>> http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/222708141/) there,
>> and also an Open Tech School sessions running with beginner python
>> programmers (
>> http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/223058002/ ). There's
>> often pygame people at these things, so maybe some people will be
>> interested in helping.
>>
>>
>> My main goals for the sprint:
>>
>>- get build page results aggregation up. (so people can easily see
>>which platforms are failing). Also fix any broken build bots.
>>https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/154/set-up-more-build-bots
>>- make new website default for front end. It currently sits on
>>http://pygame.org/hifi.html
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/252/new-website-default-front-page
>>- New downloads page design. Driven by a repo holding the binaries.
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152/downloads-for-website-via-a-repository
>>- get basic 'lofi' separate static html pages generated. (the non
>>javascript pages)
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages
>>- pip install related issues.
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/59/pygame-has-no-pypi-page-and-cant-be
>>- tend the pull request garden.
>>
>> If anyone else wants to join in, it'd be good to know what things you're
>> going to be working on :)
>>
>>
>> Also, for those not in Berlin... I'll pay some attention to the pygame
>> irc.
>>
>>
>> best,
>>
>
>

[pygame] Re: sprint this weekend

[René Dudfield]

https://www.facebook.com/events/1426411697688474/

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:31 AM, René Dudfield  wrote:

> Hellos,
>
> I'm going to the co.up co-working space in Berlin this weekend to work on
> pygame stuff. There's a creative coding jam (
> http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/222708141/) there, and
> also an Open Tech School sessions running with beginner python programmers
> ( http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/223058002/ ).
> There's often pygame people at these things, so maybe some people will be
> interested in helping.
>
>
> My main goals for the sprint:
>
>- get build page results aggregation up. (so people can easily see
>which platforms are failing). Also fix any broken build bots.
>https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/154/set-up-more-build-bots
>- make new website default for front end. It currently sits on
>http://pygame.org/hifi.html
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/252/new-website-default-front-page
>- New downloads page design. Driven by a repo holding the binaries.
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152/downloads-for-website-via-a-repository
>- get basic 'lofi' separate static html pages generated. (the non
>javascript pages)
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/253/lofi-non-javascript-static-html-pages
>- pip install related issues.
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/59/pygame-has-no-pypi-page-and-cant-be
>- tend the pull request garden.
>
> If anyone else wants to join in, it'd be good to know what things you're
> going to be working on :)
>
>
> Also, for those not in Berlin... I'll pay some attention to the pygame irc.
>
>
> best,
>