Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Hi,
 
It is interesting to note that g++ 2.95 had signatures (http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-2.95.3/gcc_5.html#SEC112) which were very much like Go interfaces (http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Interface_types). But the g++ signature disapeared in version 3.0.4 without a mention. It was removed due to lack of interest. Apparently it can not compete with full featured templates.
 
Lenard Lindstrom
 
On Nov 5, 2011, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:> On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 AM, Greg Ewing wrote:>>> Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?>>> http://golang.org/>> I looked at it. My first impression was "this is ugly". I'm pretty>> sure it's not the language I was talking about.> No, that is indeed the google Go thing.Ah, sorry - misread that earlier :p (you said 'I' whereas I thought you referred to someone else talking about google's cool new lang, and you thinking that something so ugly as what's behind that link wouldn't be that one .. was tired)I haven't realliy studied it, but also am not too convinced. Dunno, perhaps should look more though if need compiled stuff.~Toni> Which they support on the app engine to have something faster than py, but nicer than c. But is somewhat close to c I guess. > > The fibonacci example is:> > package main> > // fib returns a function that returns> // successive Fibonacci numbers.> func fib() func() int {> 	a, b := 0, 1> 	return func() int {> 		a, b = b, a+b> 		return b> 	}> }> > func main() {> 	f := fib()> 	// Function calls are evaluated left-to-right.> 	println(f(), f(), f(), f(), f())> }> >> Greg> > > ~Toni> 

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Mac Ryan]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:45:58 -0600
Ian Mallett  wrote:

> Good C++ is always faster than Java code.
>  However, crappy C++ is slower than crappy Java code.

The flaw here is that the underlying assumption is that execution time
is THE criteria for evaluating code quality. 

Contrarily, there are often instances where one might prefer slower
performing code if more readable / better structured / easier to
maintain.

It might be true that the C++ implementation of any algorithm is
faster than its Java counterpart, though. As well as it is true that
one could write an optimised-for-speed java implementation of something
that outperform a non optimised C++ version.

Both scenarios have nothing to do with "crappiness" of a given
implementation though. :o

/mac

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Kevin Secretan]

I don't see why anyone would start a new project in C++ these days. There
are just so many better alternatives. Perhaps you could look at a Lisp;
Common Lisp can compile to machine code, and Clojure's really nice and runs
on the JVM and can run on Android. Haskell's cool too but a bit hard. ;)

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Toni Alatalo  wrote:

> On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 AM, Greg Ewing wrote:
> >>> Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?
> >>> http://golang.org/
> >> I looked at it. My first impression was "this is ugly". I'm pretty
> >> sure it's not the language I was talking about.
> > No, that is indeed the google Go thing.
>
> Ah, sorry - misread that earlier :p (you said 'I' whereas I thought you
> referred to someone else talking about google's cool new lang, and you
> thinking that something so ugly as what's behind that link wouldn't be that
> one .. was tired)
>
> I haven't realliy studied it, but also am not too convinced. Dunno,
> perhaps should look more though if need compiled stuff.
>
> ~Toni
>
> > Which they support on the app engine to have something faster than py,
> but nicer than c. But is somewhat close to c I guess.
> >
> > The fibonacci example is:
> >
> > package main
> >
> > // fib returns a function that returns
> > // successive Fibonacci numbers.
> > func fib() func() int {
> >   a, b := 0, 1
> >   return func() int {
> >   a, b = b, a+b
> >   return b
> >   }
> > }
> >
> > func main() {
> >   f := fib()
> >   // Function calls are evaluated left-to-right.
> >   println(f(), f(), f(), f(), f())
> > }
> >
> >> Greg
> >
> >
> >  ~Toni
> >
>
>


-- 
"NORMAL is a setting on a washing-machine." -- Nikolai Kingsley

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 AM, Greg Ewing wrote:
>>> Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?
>>> http://golang.org/
>> I looked at it. My first impression was "this is ugly". I'm pretty
>> sure it's not the language I was talking about.
> No, that is indeed the google Go thing.

Ah, sorry - misread that earlier :p (you said 'I' whereas I thought you 
referred to someone else talking about google's cool new lang, and you thinking 
that something so ugly as what's behind that link wouldn't be that one .. was 
tired)

I haven't realliy studied it, but also am not too convinced. Dunno, perhaps 
should look more though if need compiled stuff.

~Toni

> Which they support on the app engine to have something faster than py, but 
> nicer than c. But is somewhat close to c I guess. 
> 
> The fibonacci example is:
> 
> package main
> 
> // fib returns a function that returns
> // successive Fibonacci numbers.
> func fib() func() int {
>   a, b := 0, 1
>   return func() int {
>   a, b = b, a+b
>   return b
>   }
> }
> 
> func main() {
>   f := fib()
>   // Function calls are evaluated left-to-right.
>   println(f(), f(), f(), f(), f())
> }
> 
>> Greg
> 
> 
> ~Toni
> 

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 AM, Greg Ewing wrote:
>> Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?
>> http://golang.org/
> I looked at it. My first impression was "this is ugly". I'm pretty
> sure it's not the language I was talking about.

No, that is indeed the google Go thing.

Which they support on the app engine to have something faster than py, but 
nicer than c. But is somewhat close to c I guess. 

The fibonacci example is:

package main

// fib returns a function that returns
// successive Fibonacci numbers.
func fib() func() int {
a, b := 0, 1
return func() int {
a, b = b, a+b
return b
}
}

func main() {
f := fib()
// Function calls are evaluated left-to-right.
println(f(), f(), f(), f(), f())
}

> Greg


~Toni

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Greg Ewing]

Mac Ryan wrote:


Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?

http://golang.org/


I looked at it. My first impression was "this is ugly". I'm pretty
sure it's not the language I was talking about.

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Greg Ewing]

Russell Jones wrote:
Well, there is jython . It's a version of Python 
that runs under the JVM with, roughly, Python 2.5 syntax.


Unfortunately it appears that Android uses a different Java VM
bytecode from everyone else, and Jython would have to be reworked
to generate code for it.

There was a Google Code project along those lines, but it's
now marked as dead:

http://code.google.com/p/jythonroid/

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Ian Mallett]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:27 AM, R. Alan Monroe wrote:

> > (though I understand Java is capable of as good or better
> > performance than C/C++)
>
> In  execution  speed,  yes.  In RAM usage and startup time, definitely
> not.

Also, not in execution speed.  Good C++ is always faster than Java code.
 However, crappy C++ is slower than crappy Java code.  Because most
programmers are crappy, nearly everything on the internet says that Java is
faster.  From practical experience with C++ and with Java 7 (Oracle's
latest and greatest), with only moderate optimization on identical
programs, I know C++ to be *at least* twice as fast.

The only place Java has an advantage is memory allocation--and even that's
not really fair; the JVM preallocates everything, so "allocating" and
"deallocating" are almost no-ops.  If you want to do that, there are JIT
compilers for C++ . . .

Ian

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[R. Alan Monroe]

> (though I understand Java is capable of as good or better
> performance than C/C++)

In  execution  speed,  yes.  In RAM usage and startup time, definitely
not.

Alan

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Russell Jones]

This is going way off topic, but I think Java is intended for situations
where you have a small core team of highly competent programmers and a
large pool of semi- and incompetent ones, with no easy means of
distinguishing the latter two categories. It allows you to create an
environment where certain tasks are easier to do and can be delegated
without the results being too disastrous. This is fine when performance
often doesn't matter (though I understand Java is capable of as good or
better performance than C/C++). The security model in Java was a key
feature for a long time, though similar mechanisms seem to be more widely
available now such as AppArmor.

A lot of phone games have been written in Java, during the period before
the iPhone. Further, C/C++ and DirectX are used extensively for games to
some extent because of precedent, which suggests it's not the only way of
doing things, just the way people know how to do them.

Russell

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Ian Mallett]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:16 AM, James Paige wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 01:11:08PM -0300, Sean Wolfe wrote:
> > really excited just from a religious standpoint... I mean how many
> > cool games have been made with Java? ...none?
>
> Minecraft.
>
> But that is the only one I can think of!
>
> Also, I understand that the Android port of Minecraft is NOT the Java
> version, it is mostly re-written in C, so I guess this is the exception
> that proves the rule :)

I might argue that part of the reason for the fact that there are few is
that Java encourages lazy programming--which is one reason why it has
become so popular.  You *don't need* to think about pointers and array
lengths and memory allocation like you do in C, and you don't need to think
about dynamic types and efficiency and elegance like you do in Python.

The plain fact is that Java makes it easy to (start) doing whatever you
want.  On the one hand, good--but on the other, you get a massive amount of
garbage code from people who don't know what they're doing.  Even if you do
know what you're doing, it's easy to get lazy--and it takes actual effort
to avoid code bloat.  When I am forced to use Java, I often find myself
doing the easy thing instead of the right thing, despite myself.

Java's "revolutionary" JavaDoc is actually necessary because Java code
tends to get so messy that its incomprehensible to everyone--even the
original authors.  The reason there are no big games written in Java is
because it takes a huge team of people to get any big project even
*working*in Java.  Furthermore, making successful games requires
effort and
thought--and those who prefer using Java tend to prefer being lazy.

Game companies hire competent, successful programmers who can't afford to
sacrifice code readability for effort.  It follows that Java is unpopular.
 Minecraft (in its initial incarnation) was falling-down simple, and it
took an experienced programmer to make it.  The game is getting more
sophisticated, but then, there have been a number of people working in it
for years.  Think about it: a character walks around with some tools, and
removes and places little cubes.  Fun, maybe, but sophisticated?  Not so
much.

Ian

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[James Paige]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 01:11:08PM -0300, Sean Wolfe wrote:
> really excited just from a religious standpoint... I mean how many
> cool games have been made with Java? ...none?

Minecraft.

But that is the only one I can think of!

Also, I understand that the Android port of Minecraft is NOT the Java 
version, it is mostly re-written in C, so I guess this is the exception 
that proves the rule :)

---
James Paige

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Sean Wolfe]

BTW I just picked up Pro Android Games, where the author takes C code
from wolfenstein and uses the Android native libary + only a little
bit of java... I am stoked about this approach.

It's based on Android 1.5, so a little out of date now, but I'm still
really excited just from a religious standpoint... I mean how many
cool games have been made with Java? ...none? And how many with C/cpp?
Like most of them? So we can use a little bit of java and a lot of cpp
and be at peace with the gaming gods of old.

@ Mac Ryan, definitely going to check out golang as well... heard
about that one.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Mac Ryan  wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:19:28 +1300
> Greg Ewing  wrote:
>
>> I've yet to decide whether there's a place for a language
>> that combines Python's flexibility and get-out-of-your-way
>> nature with static type checking and efficient code generation.
>> If there is, I don't think that language exists yet.
>
> Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?
>
> http://golang.org/
>
> It's used by folks at Google, and since they are probably the biggest
> sponsor of python there are good chances they used some python-wisdom
> in crafting it...
>
> /mac
>



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Mac Ryan]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:19:28 +1300
Greg Ewing  wrote:

> I've yet to decide whether there's a place for a language
> that combines Python's flexibility and get-out-of-your-way
> nature with static type checking and efficient code generation.
> If there is, I don't think that language exists yet.

Absolutely not sure it fits the bill... but have you had a look at go?

http://golang.org/

It's used by folks at Google, and since they are probably the biggest
sponsor of python there are good chances they used some python-wisdom
in crafting it...

/mac

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Russell Jones]

Well, there is jython . It's a version of Python
that runs under the JVM with, roughly, Python 2.5 syntax. I think you can
use Java objects from it, so you'd need to use  Java APIs for graphics. I'm
all but certain that pygame wouldn't be available.

Russell

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Ian Mallett]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Greg Ewing wrote:

> On 03/11/11 04:31, Ian Mallett wrote:
>
>> C++ is a pain to learn, but it's definitely worth it.  In my
>> opinion it's the best compiled language.
>>
>
> I'm afraid I can't share your opinion of C++. I liked it myself
> at first, but after 10 years or so of experience I came to
> the conclusion that it goes to extreme lengths to solve a
> problem you shouldn't be having in the first place.
>
> My opinion now is that if what you're doing is too big to do
> easily in plain C, you should be using a language that provides
> you with properly isolated high-level abstractions -- such
> as Python, for example. :-)
>
Oh definitely.  I just think that if you're going to go with a compiled
language, a good general purpose one is C++.  If I want to hack something
up quickly, I'll use Python.  I contend that good design is definitely
possible with C++ (in a way that it often isn't with C), but that yes, it
can take a while to get right.

However, I often tell students that, although having an elegant, structured
design is desirable--being so simple as to require only a basic one is
better.  For projects of most practical scopes (like a simple game or
utility), you don't need anything too involved.

Ian

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Greg Ewing]

On 03/11/11 04:31, Ian Mallett wrote:

C++ is a pain to learn, but it's definitely worth it.  In my
opinion it's the best compiled language.


I'm afraid I can't share your opinion of C++. I liked it myself
at first, but after 10 years or so of experience I came to
the conclusion that it goes to extreme lengths to solve a
problem you shouldn't be having in the first place.

My opinion now is that if what you're doing is too big to do
easily in plain C, you should be using a language that provides
you with properly isolated high-level abstractions -- such
as Python, for example. :-)

I've yet to decide whether there's a place for a language
that combines Python's flexibility and get-out-of-your-way
nature with static type checking and efficient code generation.
If there is, I don't think that language exists yet.

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Greg Ewing]

On 03/11/11 04:28, Sean Wolfe wrote:

I have been thinking that since I want to
eventually port my game to iphone, I'll have to learn obj-c, so why
not java first... how hard can it be? haha.


Can't see how that would help -- ObjC is nothing at all
like Java. Learning Smalltalk would actually be better
preparation for ObjC (and would be a lot more enjoyable
besides!)

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Greg Ewing]

On 03/11/11 03:45, Sean Wolfe wrote:

I'm getting into the wonderful world of Android which means Java. Dear
lord I remember now why I hate this language. I love the pythonic
philosophy that there should be an obvious way to get things done.


There's at least one project afoot to enable pygame programming
on Android:

http://pygame.renpy.org/

And there are some encouraging words concerning Python in
general on Android here:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10940

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Sean Wolfe]

Yeah I'm an Android and C noob, but I've been a bit excited reading
about NDK and being able to use C instead of Java maybe. But from what
I've read it's not designed to replace java but rather provide
potential performance benefits in certain parts of an android app.

I mean to a certain extent I'm thinking, as far as learning Java for
android, if you can't beat em join em. And I dig the Android platform
more as far as the tablets themselves. And since I have to (and should
do, if I want to be a well rounded programmer) learn some compiled
languages, hell why not start with fortran. I mean Java.

I mean, it's all a learning adventure. It's just that coming from a
Python world where you can play around, take risks and have fune, the
heavyweight syntax is just an enthusiasm crusher. If I try anything
different Eclipse freakin explodes with complaints, then its off to
Java or Android documentation which scares the crap out of me, whereas
I find python.org pretty good reading actually.

Of course over time I will know more and there will be less crushing going on.

Preaching to the choir here I know but... I guess I'm in a ranting
mood. Thanks for listening.



On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Stuart Axon  wrote:
> I guess for android it must be possible to do stuff with the NDK and C++ ...
> and if that works shedskin might be a possibility ..
>
> On 2 November 2011 15:31, Ian Mallett  wrote:
>>
>> Curiously enough, I've recently been ruing Java's existence myself.  In
>> summary--it has syntax as bad as C, but is slower and more convoluted--not
>> to mention not as capable (pointer arithmetic, anyone?).  C# is basically
>> Java, except it's garbage collector sucks (Java's is actually very good),
>> and it's unportable.  C++ is a pain to learn, but it's definitely worth it.
>>  In my opinion it's the best compiled language.
>



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Stuart Axon]

I guess for android it must be possible to do stuff with the NDK and C++
... and if that works shedskin might be a possibility ..

On 2 November 2011 15:31, Ian Mallett  wrote:

> Curiously enough, I've recently been ruing Java's existence myself.  In
> summary--it has syntax as bad as C, but is slower and more convoluted--not
> to mention not as capable (pointer arithmetic, anyone?).  C# is basically
> Java, except it's garbage collector sucks (Java's is actually very good),
> and it's unportable.  C++ is a pain to learn, but it's definitely worth it.
>  In my opinion it's the best compiled language.

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Ian Mallett]

Curiously enough, I've recently been ruing Java's existence myself.  In
summary--it has syntax as bad as C, but is slower and more convoluted--not
to mention not as capable (pointer arithmetic, anyone?).  C# is basically
Java, except it's garbage collector sucks (Java's is actually very good),
and it's unportable.  C++ is a pain to learn, but it's definitely worth it.
 In my opinion it's the best compiled language.

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Stuart Axon]

Cool ...

I quite like the idea of phonegap and javascript, not sure about
performance though .. the last android I did, the parts of the app that
were inside a webview were so much easier and quick to do than the
traditional parts that it might be worth considering that way too
(especially for avoiding objectiveC + java).

On 2 November 2011 15:28, Sean Wolfe  wrote:

> Yeah, I saw that and poked around a bit and it's great. I should mess
> around some with it. I have been thinking that since I want to
> eventually port my game to iphone, I'll have to learn obj-c, so why
> not java first... how hard can it be? haha.
>
> I actually found a great android game tutorial just now... it's almost
> pygame ish, even uses words like Rect and Surface. go figure!
>
> http://mobile.dzone.com/articles/beginning-android-game
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Stuart Axon 
> wrote:
> > Hey, I'm sure being on this mailinglist you've seen this:
> > http://pygame.renpy.org/
> >
> > Apart from that there seem to be a lot of potential ways of using python
> or
> > python like languages but nothing that is nicely packaged up and easy
> >
> > (For instance a quick google finds this for cython
> > http://gitorious.org/nava#more
> > ).
> >
> > I'm obviously aware of the android scripting environment, but that
> doesn't
> > seem like a good solution for distributing apps.
> >
> > On 2 November 2011 14:45, Sean Wolfe  wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm getting into the wonderful world of Android which means Java. Dear
> >> lord I remember now why I hate this language. I love the pythonic
> >> philosophy that there should be an obvious way to get things done. It
> >> means I get to experiment and more often than not, my first experiment
> >> actually works!
> >>
> >> It seems like just as Python is great at taking out syntax and
> >> overhead to let you get to actually working on your ideas, to the same
> >> or greater extent, Java gets in the way. I mean in the Python world I
> >> don't really need an IDE, maybe a souped up text editor is all. But
> >> now I see why IDEs are so much more helpful in the java world... cause
> >> there is so much more overhead to manage.
> >>
> >> That being said, being a mostly Python programmer up to this point,
> >> I'm sure C++ and C# are just as horrible. So it's not specific to
> >> Java.
> >>
> >> Anyhow, back to work. But please somebody tell me the joy of game
> >> programming will come back cause right now I'm just slogging through
> >> muck.
> >>
> >>
> >> *sniff* thanks for letting me cry...
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> >> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> >> - Abraham Maslow
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow
>

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Sean Wolfe]

Yeah, I saw that and poked around a bit and it's great. I should mess
around some with it. I have been thinking that since I want to
eventually port my game to iphone, I'll have to learn obj-c, so why
not java first... how hard can it be? haha.

I actually found a great android game tutorial just now... it's almost
pygame ish, even uses words like Rect and Surface. go figure!

http://mobile.dzone.com/articles/beginning-android-game




On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Stuart Axon  wrote:
> Hey, I'm sure being on this mailinglist you've seen this:
> http://pygame.renpy.org/
>
> Apart from that there seem to be a lot of potential ways of using python or
> python like languages but nothing that is nicely packaged up and easy
>
> (For instance a quick google finds this for cython
> http://gitorious.org/nava#more
> ).
>
> I'm obviously aware of the android scripting environment, but that doesn't
> seem like a good solution for distributing apps.
>
> On 2 November 2011 14:45, Sean Wolfe  wrote:
>>
>> I'm getting into the wonderful world of Android which means Java. Dear
>> lord I remember now why I hate this language. I love the pythonic
>> philosophy that there should be an obvious way to get things done. It
>> means I get to experiment and more often than not, my first experiment
>> actually works!
>>
>> It seems like just as Python is great at taking out syntax and
>> overhead to let you get to actually working on your ideas, to the same
>> or greater extent, Java gets in the way. I mean in the Python world I
>> don't really need an IDE, maybe a souped up text editor is all. But
>> now I see why IDEs are so much more helpful in the java world... cause
>> there is so much more overhead to manage.
>>
>> That being said, being a mostly Python programmer up to this point,
>> I'm sure C++ and C# are just as horrible. So it's not specific to
>> Java.
>>
>> Anyhow, back to work. But please somebody tell me the joy of game
>> programming will come back cause right now I'm just slogging through
>> muck.
>>
>>
>> *sniff* thanks for letting me cry...
>>
>>
>> --
>> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
>> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
>> - Abraham Maslow
>
>



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

Re: [pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Stuart Axon]

Hey, I'm sure being on this mailinglist you've seen this:
http://pygame.renpy.org/

Apart from that there seem to be a lot of potential ways of using python or
python like languages but nothing that is nicely packaged up and easy

(For instance a quick google finds this for cython
http://gitorious.org/nava#more
).

I'm obviously aware of the android scripting environment, but that doesn't
seem like a good solution for distributing apps.

On 2 November 2011 14:45, Sean Wolfe  wrote:

> I'm getting into the wonderful world of Android which means Java. Dear
> lord I remember now why I hate this language. I love the pythonic
> philosophy that there should be an obvious way to get things done. It
> means I get to experiment and more often than not, my first experiment
> actually works!
>
> It seems like just as Python is great at taking out syntax and
> overhead to let you get to actually working on your ideas, to the same
> or greater extent, Java gets in the way. I mean in the Python world I
> don't really need an IDE, maybe a souped up text editor is all. But
> now I see why IDEs are so much more helpful in the java world... cause
> there is so much more overhead to manage.
>
> That being said, being a mostly Python programmer up to this point,
> I'm sure C++ and C# are just as horrible. So it's not specific to
> Java.
>
> Anyhow, back to work. But please somebody tell me the joy of game
> programming will come back cause right now I'm just slogging through
> muck.
>
>
> *sniff* thanks for letting me cry...
>
>
> --
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow
>

[pygame] man oh man Java is painful

[Sean Wolfe]

I'm getting into the wonderful world of Android which means Java. Dear
lord I remember now why I hate this language. I love the pythonic
philosophy that there should be an obvious way to get things done. It
means I get to experiment and more often than not, my first experiment
actually works!

It seems like just as Python is great at taking out syntax and
overhead to let you get to actually working on your ideas, to the same
or greater extent, Java gets in the way. I mean in the Python world I
don't really need an IDE, maybe a souped up text editor is all. But
now I see why IDEs are so much more helpful in the java world... cause
there is so much more overhead to manage.

That being said, being a mostly Python programmer up to this point,
I'm sure C++ and C# are just as horrible. So it's not specific to
Java.

Anyhow, back to work. But please somebody tell me the joy of game
programming will come back cause right now I'm just slogging through
muck.


*sniff* thanks for letting me cry...


-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow