Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Ben Woodhead]

Well put Patrick,

1 week is a lot of time to doing something amazing. Just got to have 
something amazing to start with.. :) The games I used pygame for was 
something so simple, was 3 ships and frogs jumping off the ships and a canon 
that could shoot frogs based on the 3 possible directions of the cannon. 
Simple right, well they gave me a compass, a gps and a hand help computer so 
thats what I came up with. You turn or move and shoot the damn frogs or turn 
and put out fires.. People had tons of fun playing them, took me like a week 
to develop all 3 games and I had never used pygame before in my life but it 
worked on my hand held and was a 2d engine. :)


Later, Ben



From: "Patrick Mullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: pygame-users@seul.org
To: pygame-users@seul.org
Subject: Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:39:32 -0800

The problem with this, and it has been discussed before, is that those who
have extensive (internal, or even external but not well documented or
supported) libraries start off with a huge advantage over those who come
into it fresh.  There are quite a few pretty extensive libraries that are 
in

fact allowed, and you can use your own library as well if you document it,
release it well in advance of the contest, and get it approved.  I've been
working on a massively multiplayer game for a year and a half.  Now I'm
going to take that, put in some models that fit the theme, and call it a
day.  Not so good...

The idea of the contest is sort of to put everyone on a level playing 
field,

and allow freedom of experimentation.  I don't know about some people, but
when I am limited on time I tend to come up with very unique code design
that I don't often use in my full projects, sometimes I even learn 
something

from it besides just having a good time :)

A week really is enough time to accomplish some great things or at least a
great start to a new project.  More time than that and it's too easy to put
things off or have feature creep really set in, less time is just too
rushed; although that's an experience in itself.


_
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live 
Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Ben Woodhead]

Hello all

For me, and I may have a very different idea on what something like game in 
a day or game in a week is. Game in a week is a nice break. I am a 
professional game developer ( actually one of the games was on a nokia and 
used pygame, so thank you all for building that library. It made my life so 
easy ).


Anyway, back to the point. Starting a game is easy, finishing a game is 
work. PERIOD. I don't care what anybody says about that. Pong is a bitch to 
finish. I personally think of this challange as a chance to take an idea and 
actually finish it. What would you guess the averages are for games started 
vs games finished ( million to 1 would be my guess ).


So for me, I don't care what you do to finish a game in a week. That is the 
accomplishment all on its own. 1 week just defines the size of the project ( 
make it small, really small ). Most people try game in a day or week and 
never finish because they don't know how much it takes to finish a game. 
Second try there idea is much smaller and they may finish. Third try if they 
are still modivated they can actually do it.


First and for most to me is finishing a game by any means is something to be 
prood of. Getting first is something you can work on later. We all know the 
"Finish pong, then start your MMO" saying. This is a chance to do that.


For people worried about game developers having a mass library. We have 
already finished games we do it for a living. Yeah chances are we have a 
prebuilt API and have knowledge and contact with art departments to make a 
game but why ohh why would I go to work for a contest. So I can beat some 
person doing it on there own.. lol. Wow I am so great i am a pro boxer and i 
just powned that amature..


Another thing about contests like, you really need to think outside the box. 
You don't have the time to create World of Warcraft. So you have to think of 
something small and hopefully fun, arts going to suck runtime is going to 
suck but the idea is there. Even with a full studio in 1 week you still only 
have the idea. Damn, were i work if i tried to use my full staff we would 
still be in meeting at the end of the week.


Anyway sorry to ramble hope that makes some sence.
Ben

_
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live 
Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Patrick Mullen]

Richard wrote:

I should nit-pick here. I'm very careful to call it a "challenge" and not
a "competition". There are no prizes, except kudos. I like it that way 'cos
it means I can enter without fear of being charged with cheating to gain
prizes :)

Yeah this is important.  Prizes would probably mess the whole thing up.  I
don't feel so bad if I miss a compo or if I lose, if there were prizes it
would be more frustrating.  Still, we do vote on winners, so there is a
competitive element.  For me, it's this more than the deadline that gives me
inspiration.  Thanks by the way for running this Richard.  I've only
competed once, but it was a blast.  I'm planning on entering this time
though, I think the timing is actually going to work out.

Greg Ewing wrote:

If the PyGame site isn't suitable, are there any other
sites for Python-based games that would be more
appropriate?"


This is a very good point.  Other than pygame.org, I can't think of any
good, standard showcase sites for python games.  Pygame is the most common
library, but there are quite a few others, and more coming down the pike
(pyglet etc).  More than any other kind of project, games are meant to be
shown off.  When I am looking for games to play, pygame is usually the only
place I look, before going to non python places such as happypenguin or
gametunnel.  Perhaps the community should be decentralized a bit from the
libraries.  Although these kinds of developments can often split a community
instead of bringing it together.  Maybe pyweek could be involved?  It
already has a good infrastructure set up, and some good documents covering a
lot of the libraries available.  A standard site for python game development
might not be such a bad idea.

--
If there were to be an exposition type thing, how long would it last?  Same
length of time or more?  Would there be themes as well (but maybe more of a
guideline than a requirement).  Releasing the source would be required of
course.  Maybe instead of running it like a competition, there could be some
sort of awards type thing once a year (pygame oscars!).  They do those game
of the month top ten articles on gametunnel that are always interesting and
help point out independent games that you might not hear about.  Maybe
pygame needs something like that?

Just some ideas to think about.

Can't wait for pyweek to start!

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Greg Ewing]

Patrick Mullen wrote:
A different 
thing, that was an exhibition and allowed you to build off of existing 
code, would be something completely different.


I don't think you'd get nearly as many entrants as you do with pyweek, 
it would be more of people just showing off what they are working on, 
which people can already do anyway (on the pygame.org 
 page, or through various standard channels).


An exhibition event would provide a coordinated time and
place for people to meet and interact. One of the main
reasons that PyWeek interests me is that I know there will
be a bunch of like-minded people there, all at once, making
time to look at each other's work. You don't get the same
experience from just announcing something on a web site
or mailing list.

Also, although not to the same extent as PyWeek, it would
provide an incentive to get something done. If any release
date is as good as another, it's easy to let things slide.

So if anyone wants to set up such an event, I'll be
interested.

By the way, is the PyGame web site only for games based
on the PyGame library, or would other Python-oriented
games be welcome there too? I have a couple of works in
progress that I'll be wanting to show off in due course,
but they don't use PyGame.

If the PyGame site isn't suitable, are there any other
sites for Python-based games that would be more
appropriate?

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Greg Ewing]

Kamilche wrote:
A nice tradeoff would be to let 
them use code they've developed in the past as part of their project.


According to my reading of the rules, they *can* do that
as long as they document and release it at least a month
beforehand, and as long as it's general-purpose and
doesn't implement part of some particular game.

So there's plenty of scope for using very high-level
libraries that let you get a lot done in a week.

--
Greg

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Richard Jones]

On Friday 09 March 2007 09:27, Patrick Mullen wrote:
> Pyweek is a competition, is it not?

I should nit-pick here. I'm very careful to call it a "challenge" and not 
a "competition". There are no prizes, except kudos. I like it that way 'cos 
it means I can enter without fear of being charged with cheating to gain 
prizes :)


Richard

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Patrick Mullen]

Pyweek is a competition, is it not?  An exhibition would be something
entirely different, and allowing more time or loose inclusion of any
libraries would be orthoganal to what pyweek currently is.  A different
thing, that was an exhibition and allowed you to build off of existing code,
would be something completely different.  Which isn't to say that something
like that shouldn't exist :)

I don't think you'd get nearly as many entrants as you do with pyweek, it
would be more of people just showing off what they are working on, which
people can already do anyway (on the pygame.org page, or through various
standard channels).

The competition element of pyweek is part of the creative drive that makes
it work for people, at least for me.  The chance to not worry about
remembring which of my 10,000 functions do what I want, start from scratch,
work on a brand new game with a friend or friends (who i don't have to
teach, except the extreme python basics) is a great opportunity.

I don't look at the from-scratch angle as a burden (oh no, I don't want to
have to code this function AGAIN) but as an opportunity (instead of doing it
like this, since I always do it that way, lets try something different).

And if you have a nice boiler plate library that accomplishes all of the
annoying set up that you don't want to write again, publish it and use it in
the contest :)  Just give others the opportunity to use it as well.

Heh, my online game was a bad example.  It's sort of closed source for the
time being, and not working very well at the moment to boot.  I can
definately see the value in a non-from scratch competition, expo, etc.
Pyweek is so infrequent I would love more opportunities to get ideas and
make cool stuff.  Start something new :)

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Richard Jones]

On Friday 09 March 2007 08:24, Kamilche wrote:
> The limitation of not using pre-existing libraries and artwork is a
> deterrent. You might be able to talk more game creators with advanced
> skills into competing, if those limitations didn't exist.

I think you may need to re-read the rules page. You *can* use any existing 
libraries and artwork as long as:

1. you have license to do so, and
2. all the other entrants have access to those as well.

I'm much more interested in a level playing-field. If you've already got a 
kick-ass game/library and want to show off, why would you think a game 
challenge is a good place to release it? Why can't it stand on its own merit? 
Allowing that sort of submission would only discourage those who started from 
scratch.


Richard

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Kamilche]

Patrick Mullen wrote:

The problem with this, and it has been discussed before, is that those who
have extensive (internal, or even external but not well documented or
supported) libraries start off with a huge advantage over those who come
into it fresh.  There are quite a few pretty extensive libraries that 
are in

fact allowed, and you can use your own library as well if you document it,
release it well in advance of the contest, and get it approved.  I've been
working on a massively multiplayer game for a year and a half.  Now I'm
going to take that, put in some models that fit the theme, and call it a
day.  Not so good...

The idea of the contest is sort of to put everyone on a level playing 
field,

and allow freedom of experimentation.  I don't know about some people, but
when I am limited on time I tend to come up with very unique code design
that I don't often use in my full projects, sometimes I even learn 
something

from it besides just having a good time :)

A week really is enough time to accomplish some great things or at least a
great start to a new project.  More time than that and it's too easy to put
things off or have feature creep really set in, less time is just too
rushed; although that's an experience in itself.



Well, that keeps it a competition instead of an exhibition. I would like 
to see more advanced games than you can get with only 1 week of effort, 
but that's asking too much of people. A nice tradeoff would be to let 
them use code they've developed in the past as part of their project.


Just my 2 cents worth. I'd be happy to see your online game in the 
competition, as long as you included the source code. :-D


--Kamilche

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Patrick Mullen]

The problem with this, and it has been discussed before, is that those who
have extensive (internal, or even external but not well documented or
supported) libraries start off with a huge advantage over those who come
into it fresh.  There are quite a few pretty extensive libraries that are in
fact allowed, and you can use your own library as well if you document it,
release it well in advance of the contest, and get it approved.  I've been
working on a massively multiplayer game for a year and a half.  Now I'm
going to take that, put in some models that fit the theme, and call it a
day.  Not so good...

The idea of the contest is sort of to put everyone on a level playing field,
and allow freedom of experimentation.  I don't know about some people, but
when I am limited on time I tend to come up with very unique code design
that I don't often use in my full projects, sometimes I even learn something
from it besides just having a good time :)

A week really is enough time to accomplish some great things or at least a
great start to a new project.  More time than that and it's too easy to put
things off or have feature creep really set in, less time is just too
rushed; although that's an experience in itself.

Re: [pygame] PyWeek #4 in April!

[Kamilche]

Richard Jones wrote:

PyWeek #4 will run in the first week of April:

 Start: 00:00UTC Sunday 1st April
Finish: 00:00UTC Sunday 8th April
 


REGISTRATION IS OPEN

Visit the PyWeek website for more information: 

  http://pyweek.org/ 



THE PYWEEK CHALLENGE: 

- Invites all Python programmers to write a game in one week from scratch 
  either as an individual or in a team, 
- Is intended to be challenging and fun, 
- Will hopefully increase the public body of python game tools, code and 
  expertise, 
- Will let a lot of people actually finish a game, and 
- May inspire new projects (with ready made teams!) 

Entries must be developed during the challenge, and must incorporate some 
theme decided at the start of the challenge. The rules for the challenge are 
at: 

  http://media.pyweek.org/static/rules.html 



Richard 



The limitation of not using pre-existing libraries and artwork is a 
deterrent. You might be able to talk more game creators with advanced 
skills into competing, if those limitations didn't exist.


I think you should allow pre-existing libraries, but only if they supply 
the source code with the game. To me, this contest is more of a 'watch 
how I code' exhibition more than anything, and I think it would be fun 
to loosen the rules to let more advanced game creators participate.


--Kamilche