[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Martin v. Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

This is now fixed in r66460 and r66462; the text that gets included is
in Tools/msi/crtlicense.txt.

--
keywords:  -easy
resolution:  -> fixed
status: open -> closed

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Barry A. Warsaw]

Changes by Barry A. Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


--
priority: normal -> release blocker

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Van Lindberg]

Van Lindberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Neil, you are right. I was thinking about linking to the binary dll
(which some people think might impose licensing restrictions under some
circumstances), but the text does refer to the source code.

As Python does not distribute any source code from Microsoft, it is
better to remove the last restriction identified by Neil from the
recommended text (and fix the grammar accordingly).

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Neil Hodgson]

Neil Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

The recommended addition includes the 'excluded license' section which 
appears unnecessary as Python does not distribute any source code 
redistributables, only the .DLL file which is a binary executable. 
Including this is likely to confuse those who wish to use the GPL when 
distributing projects which include Python since the license is trying 
to limit their redistributing something they will not be able to find 
and so remove from Python.

--
nosy: +nyamatongwe

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Martin v. Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Van, your recommendation is much appreciated. I'll add your text to the
LICENSE file of the next release candidates.

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Van Lindberg]

Van Lindberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

The important part is that we point out the Microsoft redistributables
are subject to Microsoft's restrictions; we don't need to point to a
specific EULA URL. People installing Python will agree to the license
terms as they apply to the different pieces of the binary, and thus
satisfy the PSF's obligation.

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Thank you, Van, for this comprehensive analysis.

By including your text we'll also bypass the issues with finding the
EULA file in the Visual Studio installation.

The text should be easy to add as extra file and we can then reference
this file in the MSI installer builder (much like we do for all other
3rd party licenses. I can't help with that in the next few days, though,
since I'm on vacation the next week.

One nit I found with the text, but that may not be legally relevant: The
MS website does not appear to list the EULA texts anywhere.

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Van Lindberg]

Van Lindberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Sorry for the long comment. There are two parts to this comment. First,
my recommendation, and second, the somewhat tedious analysis of the
Microsoft EULAs. The second part is the verbiage to justify the first.

Recommendation
==

To comply with Microsoft's EULA, the PSF should include text like the
following in the Windows binary installer license text:



"This program is linked with and uses Microsoft Distributable Code,
copyrighted by Microsoft Corporation. The Microsoft Distributable Code
includes the following files:

[...]

If you further distribute programs that include the Microsoft
Distributable Code, you must comply with the restrictions on
distribution specified by Microsoft. In particular, you must require
distributors and external end users to agree to terms that protect the
Microsoft Distributable Code at least as much as Microsoft's own
requirements for the Distributable Code. See Microsoft's documentation
(included in its developer tools and on its website at microsoft.com)
for specific details.

Redistribution of the Windows binary build of the Python interpreter
complies with this agreement, provided that you do not:

- alter any copyright, trademark or patent notice in Microsoft's
Distributable Code;

- use Microsoft’s trademarks in your programs’ names or in a way that
suggests your programs come from or are endorsed by Microsoft;

- distribute Microsoft's Distributable Code to run on a platform other
than Microsoft operating systems, run-time technologies or application
platforms;

- include Microsoft Distributable Code in malicious, deceptive or
unlawful programs; or

- modify or distribute the source code of any Microsoft Distributable
Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded License.  An
Excluded License is one that requires, as a condition of use,
modification or distribution, that the code be disclosed or distributed
in source code form; or others have the right to modify it.

These restrictions apply only to the Microsoft Distributable Code as
defined above, not to Python itself or any programs running on the
Python interpreter. The redistribution of the Python interpreter and
libraries is governed by the Python Software License included with this
file, or by other licenses as marked.



Commentary on the distribution requirements
===

VS 2008 (labels added for clarity)
--


"ii.Distribution Requirements.  For any Distributable Code you
distribute, you must

(A) add significant primary functionality to it in your programs;"

This term is satisfied by the addition of the Python interpreter.


(B) "for any Distributable Code having a filename extension of .lib,
distribute only the results of running such Distributable Code through a
linker with your program;"

This prohibits distributing libraries in .lib form. Based on what I see
in the MSI, we do not do this. We do include _msi.lib, but that is not
Microsoft's _msi.lib, but the ready-for linking version of MvL's msilib.


(C) "distribute Distributable Code included in a setup program only as
part of that setup program without modification;"

Python does not include any Distributable Code included in a setup program.


(D) "require distributors and external end users to agree to terms that
protect it at least as much as this agreement;"

This term specifies that any Distributable Code that we distribute must
itself have some sort of agreement that protects Microsoft's rights in
"it" (the code) "at least as much as this agreement."

The important term here is "it." The antecedent here is "Distributable
Code you distribute," (Microsoft's code, in this case the msvcrt.dll),
not "your programs" (Python). 


(E) "display your valid copyright notice on your programs; and"

Python complies with this requirement, as we display our own license
agreement and include sys.copyright.


(F) "indemnify, defend, and hold harmless Microsoft from any claims,
including attorneys’ fees, related to the distribution or use of your
programs."

Under this provision, we agree not to sue Microsoft for distributing Python.


"iii. Distribution Restrictions.  You may not

(G) alter any copyright, trademark or patent notice in the Distributable
Code;"

Python complies with this requirement, as the Microsoft Distributable
Code is distributed unaltered.


(H) "use Microsoft’s trademarks in your programs’ names or in a way that
suggests your programs come from or are endorsed by Microsoft;"

Python complies with this requirement, as we do use Microsoft's
trademarks in the program name and we don't suggest that Python comes
from or is endorsed by Microsoft.


(I) "distribute Distributable Code to run on a platform other than
Microsoft operating systems, run-time technologies or application
platforms;"

While Python could technically run on non-Microsoft platforms (e.g.
Wine), the Windows binar

[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Travis N. Vaught]

Changes by Travis N. Vaught <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


--
nosy: +tvaught

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

On 2008-09-10 00:15, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:
> 
>> We've had the same issue with the OpenSSL license and the other
>> 3rd party packages which come with the Python Windows installer.
> 
> No, the issue was completely different. Those licenses literally
> say "include a copy of the license text" (e.g. for OpenSSL
> "Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
>  notice, this list of conditions [...]")
> 
> That's a requirement that I can understand. For the MS EULA,
> I don't understand what it says, and I don't know whether
> including it will make compliance with the license better or
> worse. I need a lawyer to tell me what to do comply with the
> license, then I can decide whether I like to do that, and the
> lawyer can also tell me what the consequences might be if I
> did something different.
>
>> Do you really think that simply ignoring the fact that we are
>> violating copyrights
> 
> I don't believe we are violating copyrights by not including the
> license (and I don't believe you when you say we do). I would
> believe a lawyer telling me so (although according to my experience
> with lawyers, the lawyer may not actually say that, but only tell
> me what to do).

This part sparked the original discussion:

"""
For any Distributable Code you distribute, you must ...
require distributors and external end users to agree to terms
that protect it at least as much as this agreement;
"""

The PSF license doesn't provide the same level of protection
as the MS EULA, so the only way to maintain the protection is
to either add special terms that fulfill this requirement to the
license covering the DLLs, or to simply include the MS EULA and
tell the user that the DLLs are covered by that license.

I proposed to do the latter, since it's the easiest way
to avoid any issues.

>> I'd love to, but haven't found a way to determine the path to the
>> eula.txt file in a reliable way.
> 
> So I propose to defer this until a) we have a reliable confirmation
> that it is the right thing to do, and b) there is also a proposal
> for an implementation strategy. Blocking the release for this
> issue is really counter-productive.

It's not ideal, but if all it takes is including the EULA
(and the PSF lawyer should be able to get back to us on this
within the time frame of the release schedule), then it's easy to
resolve.

--
title: Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer 
-> Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the   Windows 
installer

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Here's a patch that adds the MS EULA to the MSI installer.

I couldn't test this, since I don't have a Python build environment on
Windows, but it should be more or less working.

--
keywords: +patch
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file11449/msi-msvs-eula.patch

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Martin v. Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

> We've had the same issue with the OpenSSL license and the other
> 3rd party packages which come with the Python Windows installer.

No, the issue was completely different. Those licenses literally
say "include a copy of the license text" (e.g. for OpenSSL
"Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 notice, this list of conditions [...]")

That's a requirement that I can understand. For the MS EULA,
I don't understand what it says, and I don't know whether
including it will make compliance with the license better or
worse. I need a lawyer to tell me what to do comply with the
license, then I can decide whether I like to do that, and the
lawyer can also tell me what the consequences might be if I
did something different.

> Do you really think that simply ignoring the fact that we are
> violating copyrights

I don't believe we are violating copyrights by not including the
license (and I don't believe you when you say we do). I would
believe a lawyer telling me so (although according to my experience
with lawyers, the lawyer may not actually say that, but only tell
me what to do).

> I'd love to, but haven't found a way to determine the path to the
> eula.txt file in a reliable way.

So I propose to defer this until a) we have a reliable confirmation
that it is the right thing to do, and b) there is also a proposal
for an implementation strategy. Blocking the release for this
issue is really counter-productive.

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

On 2008-09-09 23:09, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:
> 
>> Rather than arguing about the necessity of including the license
>> of a 3rd party file that we intend to include in a wide-spread
>> software release, wouldn't it be easier to just add the file
>> and be done with it, like I suggested at the very beginning of
>> this discussion ?
> 
> It's certainly easier to defer the decision than to take action,
> especially when we don't *need* to take action (Python works fine
> whether or not the file is included). 

We've had the same issue with the OpenSSL license and the other
3rd party packages which come with the Python Windows installer.

Do you really think that simply ignoring the fact that we are
violating copyrights "because Python works without them" is the
right way to move forward, esp. considering that the PSF itself
is all about protecting copyrights ?

> There are so many more important things to do.

True.

> OTOH, contributions are welcome.

I'd love to, but haven't found a way to determine the path to the
eula.txt file in a reliable way.

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Martin v. Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

> Rather than arguing about the necessity of including the license
> of a 3rd party file that we intend to include in a wide-spread
> software release, wouldn't it be easier to just add the file
> and be done with it, like I suggested at the very beginning of
> this discussion ?

It's certainly easier to defer the decision than to take action,
especially when we don't *need* to take action (Python works fine
whether or not the file is included). There are so many more important
things to do.

OTOH, contributions are welcome.

--
title: Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the   Windows 
installer -> Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows 
installer

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

On 2008-09-09 17:54, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:
> 
> I don't think this needs to be resolved before 2.6, not without a
> pronouncement from a lawyer advising the PSF. Layman's analyses of legal
> issues are void.
> 
> Thus lowering the priority.

That's an interesting argument :-) What makes you think that a
layman's judgment over a layman's analysis is not void as well ?

Rather than arguing about the necessity of including the license
of a 3rd party file that we intend to include in a wide-spread
software release, wouldn't it be easier to just add the file
and be done with it, like I suggested at the very beginning of
this discussion ?

--
title: Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer 
-> Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the   Windows 
installer

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Martin v. Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

I don't think this needs to be resolved before 2.6, not without a
pronouncement from a lawyer advising the PSF. Layman's analyses of legal
issues are void.

Thus lowering the priority.

--
nosy: +loewis
priority: release blocker -> normal

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Barry A. Warsaw]

Changes by Barry A. Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


--
priority: deferred blocker -> release blocker

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Barry A. Warsaw]

Barry A. Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

This should definitely block the final release, but not rc1.

--
nosy: +barry
priority: release blocker -> deferred blocker

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Raising priority since this needs to be resolved prior to the final
release of Python 2.6/3.0.

Regarding finding the eula.txt in the VS2008 installation, there doesn't
appear to be a generic way. The eula.txt is stored in a folder named
after the installed version of VS2008. Finding the installation folder
is easy (use VS90COMNTOOLS env setting), but determining the product
name doesn't look as easy.

Perhaps there's some registry trick we could pull off ?!

--
priority: critical -> release blocker

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Adding the EULA should be easy... the MSI installer code already adds
the other licenses for OpenSSL, etc. to the license text in
Tools/msi/msi.py (took me a while to find that file, since I would have
expected this to live under PCbuild/).

The only "problem" is finding the path to the EULA text file, since that
depends on the where VS is installed (and perhaps the edition as well).

--
components: +Windows
keywords: +easy

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Mark Hammond wrote:
> MAL:
>> Note that I'm not suggesting to dive into all this. We 
>> should simply put the EULA into the installer package 
>> and be done with it :-)
> 
> I can't argue with that - including the relevant EULA certainly would be
> prudent (I wonder what the license on the EULA itself is - it doesn't
> seem to be covered as 'Distributable Code' under the terms of its own
> license ;)  What the hell though - at the risk of being sued, I've
> attached it ;)

Thanks. I'll have a look at the new EULA as well... I was under the
assumption that EULAs tend to grow more restrictive rather then
open up possibilities ;-)

I've added the VC7.1 EULA as well.

--
title: Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the   Windows 
installer -> Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows 
installer

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Attaching the VS7.1 EULA. This is only relevant for Python 2.5... should
we do another patch level release.

--
versions: +Python 2.5
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file11188/eula.txt

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Mark Hammond]

Mark Hammond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

MAL:
> This was already discussed on the PSF members mailing list.

Yeah, but not specifically about VS2008 which this bug seemed to be
specifically targetting.  FWIW, this appears like *less* of a problem
for 2.6 than for 2.4 and 2.5 as it doesn't appear to have as draconian
clauses as the ones you quote.

> Note that I'm not suggesting to dive into all this. We 
> should simply put the EULA into the installer package 
> and be done with it :-)

I can't argue with that - including the relevant EULA certainly would be
prudent (I wonder what the license on the EULA itself is - it doesn't
seem to be covered as 'Distributable Code' under the terms of its own
license ;)  What the hell though - at the risk of being sued, I've
attached it ;)

Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file11187/msvs2008_prof_edition_eula.txt

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Mark Hammond wrote:
> Mark Hammond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:
> 
> Obviously IANAL, but my reading of eula.txt included with VS9 seems less
> restrictive than the 2003 one.  It has 2 clauses that seem relevant:
> 
> * [you must] require distributors and external end users to agree to
> terms that protect it at least as much as this agreement;
> 
> * [you must not] modify or distribute the source code of any
> Distributable Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded
> License.  An Excluded License is [description of GPL]
> 
> I do see how the first could be considered an issue (otoh, I'd try to
> argue we aren't doing anything to imply any worse terms :), but I don't
> see how the second is, even for GPLd programs that simply used the compiler.
> 
> Maybe it would be helpful if you referenced the specific clauses you
> think are of concern?

This was already discussed on the PSF members mailing list.

I don't have the VC9 EULA available, but these are the clauses of concern
from VC7.1:

"""
3.  DISTRIBUTION REQUIREMENTS AND OTHER LICENSE RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.  If 
you choose to exercise
your rights under Section 2, any redistribution by you is subject to your 
compliance with Section
3.1; some of the Redistributable Code has additional limited use rights 
described in Section 3.2.

   3.1  General Distribution Requirements.

 (a)If you choose to redistribute Sample Code, or 
Redistributable Code (collectively,
the “Redistributables”) as described in Section 2, you agree:

  (i) except as otherwise noted in Section 2.1 (Sample Code), 
to distribute the
Redistributables only in object code form and in conjunction with and as a part 
of a software
application product developed by you that adds significant and primary 
functionality to the
Redistributables (“Licensee Software”);

  (ii) that the Redistributables only operate in conjunction 
with Microsoft Windows
platforms;

  (iii) that if the Licensee Software is distributed beyond 
Licensee’s premises or
externally from Licensee’s organization, to distribute the Licensee Software 
containing the
Redistributables pursuant to an end user license agreement (which may be 
“break-the-seal”,
“click-wrap” or signed), with terms no less protective than those contained in 
this EULA;

  (iv) not to use Microsoft’s name, logo, or trademarks to 
market the Licensee
Software;

  (v) to display your own valid copyright notice which shall be 
sufficient to
protect Microsoft’s copyright in the Software;

  (vi) not to remove or obscure any copyright, trademark or 
patent notices that
appear on the Software as delivered to you;

  (vii) to indemnify, hold harmless, and defend Microsoft from 
and against any
claims or lawsuits, including attorney’s fees, that arise or result from the 
use or distribution of
the Licensee Software;

  (viii) to otherwise comply with the terms of this EULA; and 
(ix) agree that
Microsoft reserves all rights not expressly granted.

 You also agree not to permit further distribution of the 
Redistributables by your end
users except you may permit further redistribution of the Redistributables by 
your distributors to
your end-user customers if your distributors only distribute the 
Redistributables in conjunction
with, and as part of, the Licensee Software, you comply with all other terms of 
this EULA, and your
distributors comply with all restrictions of this EULA that are applicable to 
you.

 (b)If you use the Redistributables, then in addition to 
your compliance with the
applicable distribution requirements described for the Redistributables, the 
following also applies.
 Your license rights to the Redistributables are conditioned upon your not

  (i) creating derivative works of the Redistributables in any 
manner that would
cause the Redistributables in whole or in part to become subject to any of the 
terms of an Excluded
License; or

  (ii) distributing the Redistributables (or derivative works 
thereof) in any manner
that would cause the Redistributables to become subject to any of the terms of 
an Excluded License.
 An “Excluded License” is any license that requires as a condition of use, 
modification and/or
distribution of software subject to the Excluded License, that such software or 
other software
combined and/or distributed with such software be (x) disclosed or distributed 
in source code form;
(y) licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (z) redistributable 
at no charge.
"""

Specifically:
-

3.1 (a) (iii) ... pursuant to an end user license agreement (which may be 
“break-the-seal”,
“click-wrap” or signed), with terms no less protective than those contained in 
this EULA ...

The PSF licen

[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Mark Hammond]

Mark Hammond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Obviously IANAL, but my reading of eula.txt included with VS9 seems less
restrictive than the 2003 one.  It has 2 clauses that seem relevant:

* [you must] require distributors and external end users to agree to
terms that protect it at least as much as this agreement;

* [you must not] modify or distribute the source code of any
Distributable Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded
License.  An Excluded License is [description of GPL]

I do see how the first could be considered an issue (otoh, I'd try to
argue we aren't doing anything to imply any worse terms :), but I don't
see how the second is, even for GPLd programs that simply used the compiler.

Maybe it would be helpful if you referenced the specific clauses you
think are of concern?

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Mark Hammond]

Changes by Mark Hammond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


--
nosy: +mhammond

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Thomas Heller]

Changes by Thomas Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


--
nosy: +theller

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> added the comment:

Note that there are a few gotchas in the MS EULA, such as disallowing to
ship the DLLs with GPLed Python products or requiring that the PSF
prevents further redistribution of the DLLs unless used in conjunction
with Python.

--
priority:  -> critical

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[issue3617] Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

New submission from Marc-Andre Lemburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Since we are shipping the msvcr90.dll (+ assemblies) together with the
Python installer for Windows, we need to include the MS EULA for VS2008
in the third-party licenses section as this is the license that covers
the VS DLLs.

--
messages: 71527
nosy: lemburg
severity: normal
status: open
title: Add MS EULA to the list of third-party licenses in the Windows installer
versions: Python 2.6, Python 3.0

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