Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Senthil Kumaran]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>

Thank you, Guido, for being the BDFL of Python. As the title goes, it is
for Life.  :-)

I wouldn't worry about the governance process now.  We will figure out
something that will work.  You have steered in the right direction with the
right people.
I hope, you will find rest and peace with the break you are taking. I heard
it somewhere that there isn't a concept of retirement for artists. I am
inclined to believe that it might be the same for certain programmers.

Good luck with your happy break :-)

Thank you!
Senthil
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Robert Collins]

On Fri., 13 Jul. 2018, 02:58 Guido van Rossum,  wrote:

> available. But I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being
> BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
>

Thank you for being here, benevolent, for so long . You've been a great
example in our communities and it is much appreciated.

Rob

>
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Larry Hastings]

(separate reply to discuss the "what do we do now" topic)


On 07/12/2018 07:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. [...]

I am not going to appoint a successor.

So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A 
dictatorship? A federation?


Although the timing is a surprise, the idea of Guido retiring isn't.  I 
remember shooting the breeze with Guido about it as far back as the 
Santa Clara PyCons--and I'm sure the topic goes even further back.  So 
we've had quite a while to think about it.  Here's my opinion, which I 
reached years ago and haven't appreciably changed since.


First, there's no single person in the community who can take over as 
BDFL.  It's simply impossible.  The Guido we have today is who he is 
because he's been doing the BDFL job for more than twenty years. The job 
has shaped and taught him as he did it; as Python grew, so did Guido.  
Literally anybody else we might appoint as BDFL would have to start 
fresh and grow into the job--and I don't think we can afford the growing 
pains.


On the other hand, I also think that deciding PEPs by popular vote would 
be folly.  Python is mature enough to be simultaneously robust and 
fragile, and leaving its design up to popular vote seems like a recipe 
for chaos.  In my opinion, the final arbiters of Python's evolution 
should be experts, not the masses.  (Cue "Twitch Plays Pokemon" here.)


I think the happy medium is a Council Of Elders.  Summarizing this approach:

 * The number of Elders on the Council should be an odd number greater
   than two.  It can't be one person, as that'd just be a BDFL.  And we
   want an odd number to prevent tie votes.  My instinct is that three
   would be fine.
 * For most PEPs the Elders should delegate, just as Guido has
   generally done in the last few years.  Although I expect the Elders
   to be seasoned Python core developers, they probably won't have
   domain-specific knowledge necessary to rule on most PEPs.
 * I'm not sure how to appoint the initial round of Elders. Maybe a
   popular vote?
 * However, once appointed, Elders are appointed is "for life". The
   only way to remove one would be for them to voluntarily step
   down--there would be no mechanism to remove one from office.
   (Perhaps this is too strong--perhaps one could be removed by a
   unanimous vote from all other Elders?)  I want the Council to be
   immune to popular opinion, to be empowered to do what they think is
   right without fear of anything beyond negative public opinion.
 * I'm not sure how we'd replace Elders.  Maybe they'd hold an
   internal-only election?  ("Jo has decided to step down, and we have
   elected Sam as Jo's replacement.")

Your reaction to this might be "but running Python's evolution by 
committee will slow it down!"  I suspect that's right.  Not being Guido, 
I think the Council would be more cautious in approving changes to the 
language.  But I think that'd be appropriate anyway. Python's already a 
fine language, and I can live with it evolving more slowly in the future.



Personally I'd nominate the following three Elders.  In alphabetical order:

 * Barry Warsaw (knows where the bodies are buried)
 * Benjamin Peterson (young enough that we'll get many years of service
   out of him)
 * Brett Cannon (the only candidate tall enough to be worth considering
   as BDFL replacement)

I like this union of experience and personality.  My intuition is that 
they'd find the mixture of caution and let's-go-for-it spirit that we 
need to keep Python moving forward without making too many mistakes.  
And we could call them "the B's" for short!



Finally, I agree with Raymond's call for slow deliberation. Python's not 
going anywhere, there are no burning needs for changing the language 
that need to be addressed immediately.  We can all collectively sit and 
stew on this for a while.



//arry

/p.s. I know nobody is suggesting this, but I'll preemptively say it 
anyway: let's not simply appoint all the Release Managers as our initial 
Council Of Elders.  While that'd net us some very fine Elders indeed, 
you'd also wind up with me on the Council--an obvious mistake!

//
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Łukasz Langa]

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger  
> wrote:
> 
> For the time being, I propose that we shift into low gear and defer major 
> language changes for a while

+1

Not only do I think our first major decision should be how we make decisions 
now, but as the release manager of the first versions of Python to ever be 
developed without a dictator at the helm, I feel responsible for them not to be 
viewed by future archeologists as the releases where the project went downhill 
;-)

The fact I'm midway through a 5 week coast-to-coast road trip doesn't help.

Let's not rush anything at this point. This includes the release schedule which 
I think is wise to keep intact through this transition. See PEP 569 for 3.8.

I'm +1 to an Informational PEP around the state of the art in project 
governance.

-- 
Ł
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Thank you so much for creating a language that is much bigger than itself
and for your passion
and commitment along all these years. I hope you enjoy this well-deserved
vacation :)

Paraphrasing [this](
http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2013/10/letter-to-young-programmer.html)
letter of yours:

 Thank you so much for have dreamed so big!

Regards from cloudy London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Ethan Furman]

On 07/12/2018 12:28 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon wrote:



Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be

>> suggesting a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while
>> relying on experts as appropriate to handle finer details.


I like that distinction.


As do I.  My thoughts in more detail:

- the number of stewards should be five to increase stability

. the positions should be filled by majority vote of core-devs

- the terms should be for life, with the acknowledgment that stepping
  down at any time for any reason is perfectly acceptable


The stewards' duties:

- appoint PEP delegates as needed (not every PEP needs a delegate)
- decide PEPs that don't have delegates
- decide on major issues (such as revision control systems, main discussion
  forums, etc.)

As has been said already, there is no rush.

--
~Ethan~
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Davin Potts]

Per Antoine's comment:
> That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido
> would be legitimate as a Python BDFL.  Not even Tim or Barry ;-)

I think all agree that there simply is no replacing Guido, there is only
succeeding Guido and demonstrating that what he has built and cultivated in
this community and those on this mailing list is self-sustaining.


Per Christian's comment, repeated by many:
> How about a form of presbyterian polity in the form of a triumvirate

+1
+1
+1


Per Brett's comment:
> What that means is I think we should either have another BDFL or go
> with Christian's triumvirate suggestion in the name of general
> consistency and guidance

Consistency, I suggest, outweighs many of our other valid concerns raised
so far.  I support the approach of sorting out over time how the
composition of the triumvirate changes and when -- legislating how things
work before we have a good sense of things will quickly become
problematic.  I have faith in the people we are choosing from for the first
triumvirate.



Per Raymond's comment:
> Sorry the PEP process was so painful.  I hope your decision to have a
> permanent vacation will lift a great weight from your shoulders and that
> you will derive more joy from just being a far from ordinary core dev.

+1



Davin

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Eric Snow 
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:29 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow 
> wrote:
> >> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
> >> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
> >> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
> >> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
> >> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.
> >
> > I don't think we need a temporary solution while we digest this and
> figure out how we want to manage ourselves. Short of some horrible CoC
> catastrophe we can just hold off on making any final decisions on PEPs
> until a decision is made in how we want to handle PEPs going forward since
> Python 3.8 isn't hitting beta until May 2019 (and even if it was close we
> don't need to ever rush anything into a release as there's always the next
> release :) .
>
> Agreed.  I was hasty in posting that and don't foresee any issues
> where a temporary BDFL would matter. :)
>
> -eric
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Raymond Hettinger]

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 6:14 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a
> bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria:
> 
> - major project in # of users and contributors
> - non BDFL-governed
> - mostly volunteer-driven
> - with an established decision process for major enhancements
> 
> (*) (e.g. as an informational PEP)

That makes good sense.  We would do well to learn from those who came before us 
:-)

For the time being, I propose that we shift into low gear and defer major 
language changes for a while -- that will give us time to digest the changes 
already in motion and it will give the other implementations more of a chance 
to catch up (we've been out-running them for a while).

For the smaller decisions, I suggest that for the most part we leave the final 
calls to the subject matter experts, original authors, and module maintainers 
when applicable (Yuri for async, Vinay for logging, Nick for functools, Brett 
for imports, Inada/Victor for the eval-loop and opcodes, Bob for JSON, etc.)  
The people who've invested the most time in a subject area are probably the 
best ones to be decision makers for those areas.  But mostly, we should aim for 
consensus and only appeal to a decision maker when there is a major divergence 
about which way to go.

For the bigger decisions (and there aren't many coming up), I have some 
suggestions on ways to improve the discussions so that the interested parties 
can have a more equal say in the outcome and so that the discussions can be 
more time efficient (it takes too much time to keep-up with long-running, 
active threads).

Essentially the idea would be have a wiki/faq editable by all the participants. 
It would include the key examples, arguments for and against, and rebuttals 
which can be collected into a current-state-of-the-conversation.  This would be 
somewhat different than the current PEP process because currently PEP authors 
dominate the conversation and others can get drowned out too easily.  (This 
idea is modeled on the California Legislative Analyst Voters Guide which 
summarizes proposals and has statements and rebuttals from both proponents and 
opponents).

Also, it would be nice to have the decisions made by someone other that the 
principal proponents.  From my own experience with PEPs, I know that the 
psychological effects are powerful -- if you are the one spelling out all the 
details and defending the idea against all the slings and arrows, then it is 
only natural to come to identify with the PEP and come to believe that the only 
righteous outcome is for it to be accepted.


Raymond
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Ethan Furman]

Guido,

Thank you for creating Python.

Thank you for giving me a second chance when I mouthed off to you.

Thank you for trusting us enough to leave this great project in our hands.

Thank you.

--
~Ethan~
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Eric Snow]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:29 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow  wrote:
>> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
>> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
>> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
>> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
>> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.
>
> I don't think we need a temporary solution while we digest this and figure 
> out how we want to manage ourselves. Short of some horrible CoC catastrophe 
> we can just hold off on making any final decisions on PEPs until a decision 
> is made in how we want to handle PEPs going forward since Python 3.8 isn't 
> hitting beta until May 2019 (and even if it was close we don't need to ever 
> rush anything into a release as there's always the next release :) .

Agreed.  I was hasty in posting that and don't foresee any issues
where a temporary BDFL would matter. :)

-eric
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, Guido.  This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped
> > you'd lead Python for a few more years.  On the other hand, Python is
> > in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community
> > around it!
>
> +1
>
> Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the
> language and its community!  We cannot thank you enough.
>
> > As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make
> > any decisions *right now*.  As Victor suggested, core devs can simply
> > count +1/-1 on any language feature and we'll see how it goes.  Or
> > maybe the first such vote should be on the new governing model? :)  I
> > really hope that we won't have an excruciating debate on the mailing
> > list about the governing model though; maybe we can discuss it on the
> > upcoming core dev sprint.
>
> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.
>

I don't think we need a temporary solution while we digest this and figure
out how we want to manage ourselves. Short of some horrible CoC catastrophe
we can just hold off on making any final decisions on PEPs until a decision
is made in how we want to handle PEPs going forward since Python 3.8 isn't
hitting beta until May 2019 (and even if it was close we don't need to ever
rush anything into a release as there's always the next release :) .
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be suggesting 
> a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while relying on experts as 
> appropriate to handle finer details.

I like that distinction.

-Barry




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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:21, Tim Peters  wrote:
> 
> If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would have 
> gotten in ;-)

I would have stuck around just long enough to kill off !=

diamonds-are-a-flufl’s-best-friend-ly y’rs,
-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 12/07/2018 à 21:17, Doug Hellmann a écrit :
> 
> If the primary approach to decision making is to delegate unless
> an arbiter is absolutely necessary, then long-term consistency and
> stability comes less from finding individuals to commit to serving
> for very long terms on the N-virate as it does from everyone having
> a good understanding of the history of discussions and from a
> willingness to keep the status quo in situations where consensus
> isn't reached (note "consensus" rather than "unanimous agreement").
> 
> Building the system to support and encourage turnover, like we do
> with release managers, lowers the level of effort someone is signing
> up for when they agree to serve. Given the *many* discussions of
> burnout in the Python community and open source in general, that
> seems like an important feature.

+1.  Ongoing consistency is achieved through a strong culture.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/

And of course, Uncle Timmy was the original FLUFL, before Guido and Brett did 
their nefarious edits. :)

-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Carol Willing]

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Barry Warsaw  > wrote:
> 
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
>> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
>> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
>> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
> 
> Leaving my emotions out of it for now, and with my heartfelt gratitude for 
> everything you’ve done, I am absolutely certain that the community you’ve 
> built is strong enough to carry on.
> 

Well said, Barry. 

> 
> That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited 
> Delegation Organization).  
> 

We'll likely all be asking ourselves often "What would Guido think/do in 
situation x, y, or z?"

> 
> There’s no rush to decide, and this would make for a fine discussion at the 
> core sprint in September.
> 

Tim's reference to Stroustrup's article and the article's cautions are spot on.

I agree with Barry there's no rush to decide. Taking our time to absorb the 
news and giving Guido the space to recharge and pursue things that rock his 
world (Python and beyond) would be two actions that we can take right now.

Thank you Guido for everything. Wishing you all that you wish for us: 
https://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2016/04/kings-day-speech.html 


Warmly,

Carol




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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Christian Heimes's message of 2018-07-12 20:54:05 +0200:
> On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation.
> > 
> > Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design,
> > and instead about library and infrastructure design.
> > 
> > 
> > Same here. I suspect this will make us much more conservative in
> > accepting language changes compared to e.g. what our deprecation policy
> > should be.
> 
> +1
> 
> - Primary to delegate responsibilities to domain experts
> - Secondary to provide consistency and trust
> - Lastly to have final word in case of controversial bike shedding
> 
> Christian

If the primary approach to decision making is to delegate unless
an arbiter is absolutely necessary, then long-term consistency and
stability comes less from finding individuals to commit to serving
for very long terms on the N-virate as it does from everyone having
a good understanding of the history of discussions and from a
willingness to keep the status quo in situations where consensus
isn't reached (note "consensus" rather than "unanimous agreement").

Building the system to support and encourage turnover, like we do
with release managers, lowers the level of effort someone is signing
up for when they agree to serve. Given the *many* discussions of
burnout in the Python community and open source in general, that
seems like an important feature.

Doug
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:53 Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> >
> > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
> your own.
>
> Leaving my emotions out of it for now, and with my heartfelt gratitude for
> everything you’ve done, I am absolutely certain that the community you’ve
> built is strong enough to carry on.
>
> I’m honored that a some of you think I can fill 1/3 of Guido’s shoes,
> although in all humility I have my doubts.  Aside from that, it’s important
> to recognize that we have so many intelligent and compassionate
> contributors, that much of Python’s ongoing development can essentially
> carry on unchanged.  Yury, for example worried about replacing Guido’s
> extensive knowledge across so much of Python, and there’s the concern that
> Guido’s unique authority as BDFL will be difficult to replicate.  E.g even
> if you still absolutely hate PEP 572 (which I don’t), it is now
> unequivocally part of Python.  It’s up to all of us to accept that, move
> on, and learn to use it tastefully.
>
> I think this change in governance will increase the importance of the
> BDFL-Delegate.  We have trusted experts in many of the sub-topics of
> Python, and I have so much more confidence in letting them make the
> decisions relevant to those sub-topics.  E.g. Nick, and now Paul for
> packaging, Yury et al for async, etc.  I know that experts and
> BDFL-Delegates will make the right choices in these sub-topics, with the
> right intentions, and the best of their abilities.  Even Guido recognizes
> that we’re all just trying to do our best.
>
> Where the BDFL role is most important is in those holistic decisions about
> global features, such as PEP 572.  These things impact everyone and every
> corner of Python, so having a final arbiter(s) that is accepted by the
> community at large is critical.  I’ve long said that if I had to choose a
> single person to fill that role, it would be Brett.  He has the right mix
> of technical and social chops to make thoughtful, intelligent,
> compassionate decisions, and he has the advantage of being likely more than
> a decade away from Guido in hopeful retirement plans, unlike perhaps that
> FLUFL guy. :)
>

Thanks for the vote of confidence! And I haven't hit my mid-life crisis
yet, let alone gotten to worry about choosing when to retire. ;)


>
> That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited
> Delegation Organization).


Nice! "GUIDO decided ..." Totally going to mess with Guido's personal SEO,
though. ;)


>   Mostly, that group would identify and work with Delegates to make the
> final decisions on such PEPs, and most importantly, confidently back them
> up, even if those decisions are unpopular.
>
> For PEP 572-level language decisions, the group would be the final
> arbiters, so it would have to be an odd number.  I agree with Brett that
> voting and rotation could be problematic due to the tyranny of the
> majority.  Imagine that PEP 572 were put in front of this group, and after
> all the kerfuffle, the same decision were made.  Put yourself in that place
> when you think about the governance of Python-the-language over the next 25
> years.  I personally value stability and certainty over popularity for such
> features.  PEP 572 won’t destroy Python, and I predict most of us will
> appreciate it being there once in a while.
>

Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be
suggesting a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while relying on
experts as appropriate to handle finer details.

>
>
> There’s no rush to decide, and this would make for a fine discussion at
> the core sprint in September.
>

Oh, if this isn't settled by September then I expect there will be a lively
discussion at the dev sprints. :)
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote:
> IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation.
> 
> Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design,
> and instead about library and infrastructure design.
> 
> 
> Same here. I suspect this will make us much more conservative in
> accepting language changes compared to e.g. what our deprecation policy
> should be.

+1

- Primary to delegate responsibilities to domain experts
- Secondary to provide consistency and trust
- Lastly to have final word in case of controversial bike shedding

Christian
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> 
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.

Leaving my emotions out of it for now, and with my heartfelt gratitude for 
everything you’ve done, I am absolutely certain that the community you’ve built 
is strong enough to carry on.

I’m honored that a some of you think I can fill 1/3 of Guido’s shoes, although 
in all humility I have my doubts.  Aside from that, it’s important to recognize 
that we have so many intelligent and compassionate contributors, that much of 
Python’s ongoing development can essentially carry on unchanged.  Yury, for 
example worried about replacing Guido’s extensive knowledge across so much of 
Python, and there’s the concern that Guido’s unique authority as BDFL will be 
difficult to replicate.  E.g even if you still absolutely hate PEP 572 (which I 
don’t), it is now unequivocally part of Python.  It’s up to all of us to accept 
that, move on, and learn to use it tastefully.

I think this change in governance will increase the importance of the 
BDFL-Delegate.  We have trusted experts in many of the sub-topics of Python, 
and I have so much more confidence in letting them make the decisions relevant 
to those sub-topics.  E.g. Nick, and now Paul for packaging, Yury et al for 
async, etc.  I know that experts and BDFL-Delegates will make the right choices 
in these sub-topics, with the right intentions, and the best of their 
abilities.  Even Guido recognizes that we’re all just trying to do our best.

Where the BDFL role is most important is in those holistic decisions about 
global features, such as PEP 572.  These things impact everyone and every 
corner of Python, so having a final arbiter(s) that is accepted by the 
community at large is critical.  I’ve long said that if I had to choose a 
single person to fill that role, it would be Brett.  He has the right mix of 
technical and social chops to make thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate 
decisions, and he has the advantage of being likely more than a decade away 
from Guido in hopeful retirement plans, unlike perhaps that FLUFL guy. :)

That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited 
Delegation Organization).  Mostly, that group would identify and work with 
Delegates to make the final decisions on such PEPs, and most importantly, 
confidently back them up, even if those decisions are unpopular.

For PEP 572-level language decisions, the group would be the final arbiters, so 
it would have to be an odd number.  I agree with Brett that voting and rotation 
could be problematic due to the tyranny of the majority.  Imagine that PEP 572 
were put in front of this group, and after all the kerfuffle, the same decision 
were made.  Put yourself in that place when you think about the governance of 
Python-the-language over the next 25 years.  I personally value stability and 
certainty over popularity for such features.  PEP 572 won’t destroy Python, and 
I predict most of us will appreciate it being there once in a while.

There’s no rush to decide, and this would make for a fine discussion at the 
core sprint in September.

Cheers,
-Barry





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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-07-12 20:02, Yury Selivanov wrote:
> Another worry -- Guido knows mostly everything about all aspects of
> Python design in all fields.  To illustrate my point, I'm particularly
> worried about async/await, asyncio/trio/twisted ecosystem -- so far it
> seems that it's only Guido and I who've spent a huge chunk of their
> time maintaining (or caring about) it.  We have many other critical
> fields besides async: general language design, packaging, scientific
> ecosystem, web (partially overlaps with async), performance, etc.
> Essentially we need to build our N-virate to have knowledgable
> representatives (formally known as BDFL-delegates) from all of those
> fields, otherwise the language can stop evolving in some important
> directions.

I understand that you are worried. But you don't have to be member of an
hypothetical N-virate in order to stir asyncio into the future. I
assumme that the trusted and wise members of the N-virate will recognize
you as domain expert for asyncio and listen to your advise. We already
have the concept of BDFL delegate for PEPs and should adapt the idea.

As Brett pointed out in one of his replies, N-virate should guarantee
long-term stability and consistency of the language. It's not the job of
the N-virate to control every little details. I envision the gremium a
bit like SCOTUS. SCOP, Supreme Court of Python, has a nice ring.

Christian


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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:28 Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
> Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit :
> > Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700:
> >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
> >>> everything on Guido's level.  That can be solved if Guido agrees to
> >>> join the permanent N-virate though :)
> >>>
> >>
> >> No one has suggested we haven't been extremely lucky for the past 28
> years.
> >> :) I also don't think we will reach perfection in any solution anyway
> and
> >> this is somewhat of a "least bad" situation.
> >
> > Are we looking for people who are skilled at language design, or who are
> > skilled at building consensus through open decision-making processes?
> > Because those are very different sorts of skills, and if this new body
> > is intended to only be a final arbiter on decisions the former set of
> > skills may be less important than the latter.
>
> IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation.
>
> Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design,
> and instead about library and infrastructure design.
>

Same here. I suspect this will make us much more conservative in accepting
language changes compared to e.g. what our deprecation policy should be.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Éric Araujo]

  Hello,

Le 2018-07-12 à 13:55, Neil Schemenauer a écrit :
> The most important decision is what will we call this entity? ;-P
> I'm sure Barry will have a good idea.  Is a "cabal" the correct
> term?

  I fear the general public may not get the self-mocking humour here.

  A note about triumvirate: it means three men, not three people.

  Cheers
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit :
> Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700:
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
>>> everything on Guido's level.  That can be solved if Guido agrees to
>>> join the permanent N-virate though :)
>>>
>>
>> No one has suggested we haven't been extremely lucky for the past 28 years.
>> :) I also don't think we will reach perfection in any solution anyway and
>> this is somewhat of a "least bad" situation.
> 
> Are we looking for people who are skilled at language design, or who are
> skilled at building consensus through open decision-making processes?
> Because those are very different sorts of skills, and if this new body
> is intended to only be a final arbiter on decisions the former set of
> skills may be less important than the latter.

IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation.

Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design,
and instead about library and infrastructure design.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov  wrote:
> 
> >
> > IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
> > everything on Guido's level.  That can be solved if Guido agrees to
> > join the permanent N-virate though :)
> >
> 
> No one has suggested we haven't been extremely lucky for the past 28 years.
> :) I also don't think we will reach perfection in any solution anyway and
> this is somewhat of a "least bad" situation.

Are we looking for people who are skilled at language design, or who are
skilled at building consensus through open decision-making processes?
Because those are very different sorts of skills, and if this new body
is intended to only be a final arbiter on decisions the former set of
skills may be less important than the latter.

Doug
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim Peters]

[Antoine Pitrou]

> > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido

> > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL.  Not even Tim or Barry ;-)

A majority view is probably an incorrect view anyway.

If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would
have gotten in ;-)

If I had been,

- generators would have been in the language years earlier

- but `async` gimmicks still wouldn't be in

- ternary `if` would not have been added (too little bang for the buck)

- assignment expressions either (yup, I want them!  but I wouldn't have had
the guts to persevere against such intense community opposition)

- etc etc etc

The details don't matter.  The point is that, at heart, Python is what it
is because Guido is who he is.  No matter what we do when he steps down,
Python will change in a fundamental way.

_Now_ is the time to spread FUD via republishing Stroustrup's essay on the
Vasa ;-)
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Steven D'Aprano]

I'm sure I will have more (public) comments later, but for now I'd like 
to limit myself to one thing:

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:41:52AM -0600, Eric Snow wrote:

> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.


https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/


-- 
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Steve Dower]

On 12Jul2018 1102, Yury Selivanov wrote:

IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
everything on Guido's level.


The actual solution is to ensure the members of the group are humble 
enough to admit this, and aware enough of the community to be able to 
identify and nominate the people who are well-versed enough for a 
particular subject.


We should *always* be able to nominate a core committer to be the 
designated expert for a particular area (at least for long enough to 
approve a PEP). If we cannot, the problem is that we don't have anyone 
for that area, not that the triumvirate isn't well-versed enough themselves.


Cheers,
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Steve Dower]

On 12Jul2018 1104, Antoine Pitrou wrote:


Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit :


One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask
Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants
us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not
preclude us to essentially naming him BDFL-delegate in this instance. :)


That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido
would be legitimate as a Python BDFL.  Not even Tim or Barry ;-)


+1. If Guido had designated a successor, I'd be all for it, but I don't 
see any stable future if we try to select one person to fill that role.



Regards

Antoine.

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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:
> [..]
> >> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years.  Essentially,
> >> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years.
> >
> >
> > But that doesn't help deal with inconsistency since that just means we
> have consistency for 2 releases and then we start all over again. If you're
> suggesting someone forcibly rotates out every 5 years then that's different
> since that adds in some consistency thanks to the remaining two members.
>
> My worry is that not everybody can stick to to be with Python for a
> few decades like Guido.  Ideally, there should be a mechanism for both
> leaving the N-virate and being appointed to it.
>

I'm assuming that's what would be the next step if we decide this N-virate
approach is agreed to. Like when you talk about every 5 years, can people
stand back up and just consistently re-join, or is is 5 years and then you
have to rotate out?


>
> Another worry -- Guido knows mostly everything about all aspects of
> Python design in all fields.  To illustrate my point, I'm particularly
> worried about async/await, asyncio/trio/twisted ecosystem -- so far it
> seems that it's only Guido and I who've spent a huge chunk of their
> time maintaining (or caring about) it.  We have many other critical
> fields besides async: general language design, packaging, scientific
> ecosystem, web (partially overlaps with async), performance, etc.
> Essentially we need to build our N-virate to have knowledgable
> representatives (formally known as BDFL-delegates) from all of those
> fields, otherwise the language can stop evolving in some important
> directions.
>

Yes, Guido has a unique skill set. Having said that, one would also hope
that anyone chosen to do this would be up for learning a few new things. ;)
This is also why Guido delegated to folks on occasion and talked to experts
for opinions, something I expect people chosen to do this would


>
> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
> everything on Guido's level.  That can be solved if Guido agrees to
> join the permanent N-virate though :)
>

No one has suggested we haven't been extremely lucky for the past 28 years.
:) I also don't think we will reach perfection in any solution anyway and
this is somewhat of a "least bad" situation.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Alexander Belopolsky]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
> That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido
> would be legitimate as a Python BDFL.
>

+1
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit :
> 
> One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask
> Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants
> us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not
> preclude us to essentially naming him BDFL-delegate in this instance. :)

That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido
would be legitimate as a Python BDFL.  Not even Tim or Barry ;-)

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:13 Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> Guido,
>
> Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break.
>
> I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve
> Python and this community.
>
> My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one successor, we will have
> several people as the new "leaders", perhaps a co-BDFL, or even 3-5 people
> as co-BDFLs/leaders.
> This is based on my experience with organizing meetup and conference
> (although these are not comparable to leading the community like Python).
> The benefit is to lessen the burden and responsibilities of one person,
> and they will have backups when they need to go on a break, vacation, take
> care of personal life.
>
> Another thing that came to my mind is, who is actually able (have the time
> and energy) to take on this role? Most of us in open source are
> volunteering on limited free time available. I'm aware some of you have
> employer support, but most don't. Will this limit the candidacy to certain
> people just because they have the employer support?
>

I think it will limit it to people who feel they are up for it. I'm not
sure what Guido's time commitment was in the end pre-PEP 572, but outside
of major PEP discussions I don't think the time commitment should be huge
(and if you delegate a PEP then even less :) . So I don't think it
necessitates work time, but you might want to check with your family if
they are happy with your current engagement level. ;)


>
> What is the role of the successor(s)? Do we assume "whatever Guido did",
> or is this an opportunity to come up with a new process?
>

That's why Guido is leaving it up to us. :)

For me the key function Guido provided was tone and consistency in design.
So whatever we replace Guido with should be something that will represent
us in a way we are all proud to stand behind. And then from there the
design consistency suggests a first line of yea/nay on PEPs and then
delegation. I don't think we can just have a "delegation committee" which
doesn't make initial rejections since that would then leave the
over-arching design of the language unguided unless the "delegation
chooser" consistently chose the same person, informally choosing a design
dictator anyway. ;)


> One useful resource is Vicky Brasseur's talk: Passing the Baton,
> Succession planning for your project
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhkm2PA_Gf8
> The slides:
> https://ia800809.us.archive.org/2/items/pyconau2017-successionplanning/03-pyconau2017-successionplanning-with_notes.pdf
>
> Some ideas from that talk:
> 1. identify critical roles (e.g. PEP decision making)
> 2. refactor large roles
> 3. mentor the new successor, shadow the previous leader
> 4. document all the things
>
> This might be selfish request, but I hope you can still assume power until
> we have new successor(s).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mariatta
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:58 AM Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>
>> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for
>> a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>>
>> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
>> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
>> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
>> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
>> your own.
>>
>> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
>> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
>> spare you the list of medical issues.)
>>
>> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>>
>> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
>> dictatorship? A federation?
>>
>> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
>> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
>> actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>>
>> The decisions that most matter are probably
>> - How are PEPs decided
>> - How are new core devs inducted
>>
>> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe
>> those PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm
>> going to try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for
>> yourselves.
>>
>> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your
>> only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are
>> issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be
>> banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also
>> covered by the CoC).
>>
>> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although
>> membership is closed (limited to core devs).
>>
>> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out
>> for yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>>
>> --
>> 

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Yury Selivanov]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:
[..]
>> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years.  Essentially,
>> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years.
>
>
> But that doesn't help deal with inconsistency since that just means we have 
> consistency for 2 releases and then we start all over again. If you're 
> suggesting someone forcibly rotates out every 5 years then that's different 
> since that adds in some consistency thanks to the remaining two members.

My worry is that not everybody can stick to to be with Python for a
few decades like Guido.  Ideally, there should be a mechanism for both
leaving the N-virate and being appointed to it.

Another worry -- Guido knows mostly everything about all aspects of
Python design in all fields.  To illustrate my point, I'm particularly
worried about async/await, asyncio/trio/twisted ecosystem -- so far it
seems that it's only Guido and I who've spent a huge chunk of their
time maintaining (or caring about) it.  We have many other critical
fields besides async: general language design, packaging, scientific
ecosystem, web (partially overlaps with async), performance, etc.
Essentially we need to build our N-virate to have knowledgable
representatives (formally known as BDFL-delegates) from all of those
fields, otherwise the language can stop evolving in some important
directions.

IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in
everything on Guido's level.  That can be solved if Guido agrees to
join the permanent N-virate though :)

Yury
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Berker Peksağ]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Snow  wrote:
> Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the
> language and its community!  We cannot thank you enough.

+1

> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.

I was going to recommend the same names :)

--Berker
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Neil Schemenauer]

On 2018-07-12, Yury Selivanov wrote:
> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years.  Essentially,
> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years.

Modeling the body after a supreme court seems like a good idea.
They don't have to make day-to-day decisions, only settle disputes
that cannot be resolved by normal processes.

Having an N-virate entity would diffuse some of the criticism they
will almost certainly receive for their decisions.   Having them
serve for multiple years will provide more consistency of direction.
Having multiple members will allow members to be replaced without
too much disruption.

The most important decision is what will we call this entity? ;-P
I'm sure Barry will have a good idea.  Is a "cabal" the correct
term?

Cheers,

  Neil
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Eric Snow]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:55 AM Brett Cannon  wrote:
> One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido 
> to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to 
> choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not preclude us to 
> essentially naming him BDFL-delegate in this instance. :)

+1

-eric
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, Guido.  This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped
> > you'd lead Python for a few more years.  On the other hand, Python is
> > in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community
> > around it!
>
> +1
>
> Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the
> language and its community!  We cannot thank you enough.
>
> > As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make
> > any decisions *right now*.  As Victor suggested, core devs can simply
> > count +1/-1 on any language feature and we'll see how it goes.  Or
> > maybe the first such vote should be on the new governing model? :)  I
> > really hope that we won't have an excruciating debate on the mailing
> > list about the governing model though; maybe we can discuss it on the
> > upcoming core dev sprint.
>
> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
> allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
> If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.
>

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :)

One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido
to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to
choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not preclude us to
essentially naming him BDFL-delegate in this instance. :)
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Yury Selivanov's message of 2018-07-12 13:29:21 -0400:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue:
> > once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to
> > the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or
> > frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who
> > will feel there's a perpetual category they're locked out of)?  Do you
> > just wait for people to gently step down when required?
> 
> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years.  Essentially,
> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years.
> 
> Yury

We've had good luck in the OpenStack community tying leadership to
release cycles. It causes elections more often (our cycles are 6
months long), but people tend to step up for several cycles in a
row so that hasn't been a cause of excessive turnover. Having
frequent opportunities for folks to step down gracefully when they
need or want to also means no one feels like they are signing up
for an indefinite time commitment.

For a multi-person group, staggered elections where only a portion
of the group is up for election at one time, also provides some
consistency when there is turnover.

Doug
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Eric Snow]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov  wrote:
>
> Thank you, Guido.  This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped
> you'd lead Python for a few more years.  On the other hand, Python is
> in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community
> around it!

+1

Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the
language and its community!  We cannot thank you enough.

> As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make
> any decisions *right now*.  As Victor suggested, core devs can simply
> count +1/-1 on any language feature and we'll see how it goes.  Or
> maybe the first such vote should be on the new governing model? :)  I
> really hope that we won't have an excruciating debate on the mailing
> list about the governing model though; maybe we can discuss it on the
> upcoming core dev sprint.

In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill
in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if
we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by then).  That would
allow us to maintain business-as-usual (and try out a triumvirate).
If we go that route then I'd recommend Brett, Nick, and Barry.

-eric
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Yury Selivanov]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>
>
> I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue:
> once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to
> the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or
> frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who
> will feel there's a perpetual category they're locked out of)?  Do you
> just wait for people to gently step down when required?

One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years.  Essentially,
an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years.

Yury
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Raymond Hettinger]

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:57 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> 
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.

Sorry the PEP process was so painful.  I hope your decision to have a permanent 
vacation will lift a great weight from your shoulders and that you will derive 
more joy from just being a far from ordinary core dev.


Raymond
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Steve Dower]

On 12Jul2018 0958, Antoine Pitrou wrote:


I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue:
once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to
the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or
frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who
will feel there's a perpetual category they're locked out of)?  Do you
just wait for people to gently step down when required?


One of the important things we will have to do is define the scope of 
any long-term appointees. For example, saying "we have an N-virate that 
decides on PEPs" is very different from saying "we have an N-virate that 
decides on the PEP approver (formerly BDFL-delegates)". The latter does 
not necessarily lock anyone out from being a critical part of Python's 
future, but it does avoid endless arguments about selecting who is 
responsible with deciding.


I'm honestly not very sympathetic towards "locking out" new contributors 
from literally leading a project. As you say below, few of us can claim 
as long and as uninterrupted a presence in this project as Guido, but 
many of us can certainly claim more "right" to a say than some random 
person who probably ought to build a few of their own languages before 
deeming themselves worthy to significantly influence a well established one.



One key point about Guido is that not only he's the founder of the
project, but he's been consistently be there all the time, with almost
no interruptions.  I don't think any of us can claim such an
uninterrupted presence, neither in the past, nor in the long future.


This is the main reason for having more than one person be on the 
critical path for significant changes. It is easier to replace 33% of a 
group without losing continuity than to replace 100%.


For me, I would like the release manager to also take on some of the 
responsibility for new features in their releases. Perhaps holding one 
position in an N-virate for the current RM (who continue rotating every 
two releases) is a good way to keep things fresh?


Cheers,
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Guido,

Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break.

I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve Python
and this community.

My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one successor, we will have
several people as the new "leaders", perhaps a co-BDFL, or even 3-5 people
as co-BDFLs/leaders.
This is based on my experience with organizing meetup and conference
(although these are not comparable to leading the community like Python).
The benefit is to lessen the burden and responsibilities of one person, and
they will have backups when they need to go on a break, vacation, take care
of personal life.

Another thing that came to my mind is, who is actually able (have the time
and energy) to take on this role? Most of us in open source are
volunteering on limited free time available. I'm aware some of you have
employer support, but most don't. Will this limit the candidacy to certain
people just because they have the employer support?

What is the role of the successor(s)? Do we assume "whatever Guido did", or
is this an opportunity to come up with a new process?

One useful resource is Vicky Brasseur's talk: Passing the Baton, Succession
planning for your project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhkm2PA_Gf8
The slides:
https://ia800809.us.archive.org/2/items/pyconau2017-successionplanning/03-pyconau2017-successionplanning-with_notes.pdf

Some ideas from that talk:
1. identify critical roles (e.g. PEP decision making)
2. refactor large roles
3. mentor the new successor, shadow the previous leader
4. document all the things

This might be selfish request, but I hope you can still assume power until
we have new successor(s).

Thanks.

Mariatta


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:58 AM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
> your own.
>
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
> spare you the list of medical issues.)
>
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
>
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
> actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
>
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.
>
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your
> only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are
> issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be
> banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also
> covered by the CoC).
>
> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership
> is closed (limited to core devs).
>
> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> ___
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>
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou]

I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue:
once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to
the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or
frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who
will feel there's a perpetual category they're locked out of)?  Do you
just wait for people to gently step down when required?

One key point about Guido is that not only he's the founder of the
project, but he's been consistently be there all the time, with almost
no interruptions.  I don't think any of us can claim such an
uninterrupted presence, neither in the past, nor in the long future.

The suggestion about studying other projects was not to do a "literary
review" but simply to look at what works well for other projects.

Regards

Antoine.


Le 12/07/2018 à 18:48, Brett Cannon a écrit :
> 
> 
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 07:58 Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> 
> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard
> for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
> 
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process.
> I'll still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll
> still be available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But
> I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL,
> and you all will be on your own.
> 
> 
> Like Christian, I was hoping we had a couple more years of your direct
> guidance, but I understand how the PEP 572 situation accelerated things. :(
>  
> 
> 
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's
> still that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting
> younger... (I'll spare you the list of medical issues.)
> 
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
> 
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
> 
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker
> or on GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually
> it's not actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it
> has always been.
> 
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
> 
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe
> those PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch.
> I'm going to try and let you all (the current committers) figure it
> out for yourselves.
> 
> 
> At this point I've seen proposed:
> 
> - Christian's proposal for a triumvirate (and thanks for the vote of
> confidence, Christian, to be on said cabal/committee :)
> - Victor's proposal of voting for every PEP
> - Do essentially a literary review of how other projects handle this
> 
> For me, I think a key asset that Guido has provided for us as a BDFL is
> consistency in design/taste. Design by committee through voting does not
> appeal to me at all as that can too easily lead to shifts in preferences
> and not have the nice cohesion we have with the language's overall
> design, especially considering that there will always be subjective
> choices to make (someone has to eventually choose the colour of the
> shed). People, including me, have also pointed out that by having Guido
> to look up to you we have had a very consistent view of how the
> community should behave and that too has been an asset. IOW I don't like
> Victor's proposal. ;)
> 
> What that means is I think we should either have another BDFL or go with
> Christian's triumvirate suggestion in the name of general consistency
> and guidance (and I personally don't like the four-person suggestion
> simply because you can't break ties).
> 
> There's also no objective way to choose any of this unfortunately, so I
> suspect this is going to be based on gut feel of what we think will work
> for a couple of decades (using the word "experiment" with our design
> governance model scares me since we are not talking about little
> decisions here like whether to backport a fix). If people still want to
> put into the time to research other approaches I can understand that I
> will personally listen with an open mind, but based on my personal
> reflections on this topic over the years in preparation of having to
> eventually deal with this inevitability, my choice is dictator or
> triumvirate.
>  
> 
> 
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document
> your only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps
> there are issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out
> (this could be banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too,
> since those are also covered by the CoC).
> 
> 
> I joined the PSF's CoC committee in hopes of coming up with a proposal
> by the end of the year for fleshing out details of enforcement, etc., so
> my hope 

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Jeff Hardy]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
>
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still that
> bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll spare
> you the list of medical issues.)
>
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
>
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
> actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
>
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.
>
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your only
> option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are issues to
> decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be banning people
> from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also covered by the
> CoC).
>
> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public
> (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership
> is closed (limited to core devs).
>
> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.

Thank you, Guido, for everything that you're done, and enjoy your
well-deserved rest.

- Jeff
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Yury Selivanov]

Thank you, Guido.  This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped
you'd lead Python for a few more years.  On the other hand, Python is
in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community
around it!

As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make
any decisions *right now*.  As Victor suggested, core devs can simply
count +1/-1 on any language feature and we'll see how it goes.  Or
maybe the first such vote should be on the new governing model? :)  I
really hope that we won't have an excruciating debate on the mailing
list about the governing model though; maybe we can discuss it on the
upcoming core dev sprint.

Yury



On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:58 AM Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>
> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a 
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
>
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still that 
> bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll spare you 
> the list of medical issues.)
>
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A dictatorship? 
> A federation?
>
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on 
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not actually 
> important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
>
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those 
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to 
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.
>
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your only 
> option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are issues to 
> decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be banning people 
> from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also covered by the CoC).
>
> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public 
> (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership is 
> closed (limited to core devs).
>
> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for 
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/



-- 
 Yury
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brian Quinlan]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:58 AM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
> your own.
>

Hey Guido,

Thank you so much for creating Python and nurturing it for the last 25+
years. I, and many others on the list, have built our careers around Python
and we own you a huge amount of gratitude.

So thank you very much and I hope that your retirement goes better than it
does for most dictators ;-)

Cheers,
Brian


>
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
> spare you the list of medical issues.)
>
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
>
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
> actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
>
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.
>
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your
> only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are
> issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be
> banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also
> covered by the CoC).
>
> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership
> is closed (limited to core devs).
>
> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
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>
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 07:58 Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
> your own.
>

Like Christian, I was hoping we had a couple more years of your direct
guidance, but I understand how the PEP 572 situation accelerated things. :(


>
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
> spare you the list of medical issues.)
>
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
>
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
> actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
>
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.
>

At this point I've seen proposed:

- Christian's proposal for a triumvirate (and thanks for the vote of
confidence, Christian, to be on said cabal/committee :)
- Victor's proposal of voting for every PEP
- Do essentially a literary review of how other projects handle this

For me, I think a key asset that Guido has provided for us as a BDFL is
consistency in design/taste. Design by committee through voting does not
appeal to me at all as that can too easily lead to shifts in preferences
and not have the nice cohesion we have with the language's overall design,
especially considering that there will always be subjective choices to make
(someone has to eventually choose the colour of the shed). People,
including me, have also pointed out that by having Guido to look up to you
we have had a very consistent view of how the community should behave and
that too has been an asset. IOW I don't like Victor's proposal. ;)

What that means is I think we should either have another BDFL or go with
Christian's triumvirate suggestion in the name of general consistency and
guidance (and I personally don't like the four-person suggestion simply
because you can't break ties).

There's also no objective way to choose any of this unfortunately, so I
suspect this is going to be based on gut feel of what we think will work
for a couple of decades (using the word "experiment" with our design
governance model scares me since we are not talking about little decisions
here like whether to backport a fix). If people still want to put into the
time to research other approaches I can understand that I will personally
listen with an open mind, but based on my personal reflections on this
topic over the years in preparation of having to eventually deal with this
inevitability, my choice is dictator or triumvirate.


>
> Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your
> only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are
> issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be
> banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also
> covered by the CoC).
>

I joined the PSF's CoC committee in hopes of coming up with a proposal by
the end of the year for fleshing out details of enforcement, etc., so my
hope is this will eventually get resolved.

-Brett


>
> Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership
> is closed (limited to core devs).
>
> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Mark Shannon]

On 12/07/18 16:55, Christian Heimes wrote:

On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote:

Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for
a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.

I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be
on your own.

After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
spare you the list of medical issues.)

I am not going to appoint a successor.

So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
dictatorship? A federation?


Thanks for being our beloved BDFL for so many years!

The mail doesn't come to an suprise, although I didn't think it would
hit my inbox this year or next year. I've been pondering about possible
succession for you for a while. In my opinion we need some trusted
entity to have final say. Otherwise we are going to waste^H^H^H^H^H
spend too much time in bike shedding. But I don't see one clear person
to take your place as BDFL.

How about a form of presbyterian polity in the form of a triumvirate or
quintumvirate? (For those with a lucky childhood that didn't involve
Latin and Greek: ruling of elders with three or five powerful
individuals). It would spread the load and responsibilities between
multiple core devs.

I would consider (in alphabetical order) Barry, Brett, Mariatta, Mark,
Nick, or Victor as potential members. Each persons has been a core dev
for a long time and would brings a unique perspective into the
quintumvirate. For example Mark Shannon has an academic background in
language design.


Language *implementation* not design. It is much less controversial :)

Thanks for your vote of confidence, but I think there are plenty of 
others better qualified.


Cheers,
Mark.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Mark Shannon]

On 12/07/18 15:57, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for 
a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.


I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll 
still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be 
available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically 
giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be 
on your own.


Thanks for all your work. You should be very proud of all you have achieved.

I expect I am not alone on this list in saying that Python has changed 
my life, and mostly for the better :)




After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still 
that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll 
spare you the list of medical issues.)


I am not going to appoint a successor.

So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A 
dictatorship? A federation?


I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or 
on GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not 
actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.


The decisions that most matter are probably
- How are PEPs decided
- How are new core devs inducted

We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe 
those PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm 
going to try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for 
yourselves.


Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your 
only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are 
issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be 
banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also 
covered by the CoC).


Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public 
(https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although 
membership is closed (limited to core devs).


I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out 
for yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.


Enjoy your break. You deserve it.

Cheers,
Mark.
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Hynek Schlawack]

Guido,

> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.

Since you only announced it here so far, this also seems the only proper place 
to thank you for 27 years of service…and Python of course. :)

> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A dictatorship? 
> A federation?
> 
> I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on 
> GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not actually 
> important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.
> 
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted
> 
> We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those 
> PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to 
> try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.

I believe none of us is an expert in *this* kind of problems so I’m positive it 
would be beneficial to a) look what others did and process it into a PEP(?), b) 
possibly even involve someone external who *is* an expert like PyCon US did 
with their CoC, and most importantly c) never, ever quote works of ESR.

Enjoy your break!
—h

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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou]

I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a
bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria:

- major project in # of users and contributors
- non BDFL-governed
- mostly volunteer-driven
- with an established decision process for major enhancements

(*) (e.g. as an informational PEP)

Regards

Antoine.


Le 12/07/2018 à 17:55, Christian Heimes a écrit :
> On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for
>> a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
>>
>> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
>> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
>> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
>> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be
>> on your own.
>>
>> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
>> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
>> spare you the list of medical issues.)
>>
>> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>>
>> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
>> dictatorship? A federation?
> 
> Thanks for being our beloved BDFL for so many years!
> 
> The mail doesn't come to an suprise, although I didn't think it would
> hit my inbox this year or next year. I've been pondering about possible
> succession for you for a while. In my opinion we need some trusted
> entity to have final say. Otherwise we are going to waste^H^H^H^H^H
> spend too much time in bike shedding. But I don't see one clear person
> to take your place as BDFL.
> 
> How about a form of presbyterian polity in the form of a triumvirate or
> quintumvirate? (For those with a lucky childhood that didn't involve
> Latin and Greek: ruling of elders with three or five powerful
> individuals). It would spread the load and responsibilities between
> multiple core devs.
> 
> I would consider (in alphabetical order) Barry, Brett, Mariatta, Mark,
> Nick, or Victor as potential members. Each persons has been a core dev
> for a long time and would brings a unique perspective into the
> quintumvirate. For example Mark Shannon has an academic background in
> language design.
> 
> Regards,
> Christian
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

2018-07-12 16:57 GMT+02:00 Guido van Rossum :
> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
> PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.

Thank you for having solved the long standing issue of the PEP 572:
taking a decision was the only way to stop the flood of emails on
mailing lists (python-dev for the latest one)!

I'm sure that it was super hard and painful to take a decision on the
PEP, especially the most unpopular decision... approving it! I'm not
sure how it happened, but I started to like the new syntax :-)

> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still
> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to
> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a
> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.

Wow! That's huge! One day, Larry Hastings told me that Python is your
project ("toy"? I don't recall), but sometimes you let us to play with
it :-) Thank you for having let us to play with it! Thank you for your
25 years of service as a BDFL!

> I am not going to appoint a successor.
>
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?
>
> The decisions that most matter are probably
> - How are PEPs decided
> - How are new core devs inducted

For PEPs, I already told you in private about the PHP process to take
a decision on a RFC: vote where the majority wins. I like that. The
vote is reserved to core developers. I would like to experiment that
in Python. I expect that only some core developers would vote
depending on the PEP, since we are no experts in everything. For
example, I'm not following anything about distutils and I'm happy that
Nick Coghlan and now Paul Moore handle these PEPs!

https://twitter.com/ncoghlan_dev/status/1015420826177265665

Nick Coghlan‏: "End of an era: after ~5 years, I decided that it's
time to hand over the responsibilities of default Python packaging
interoperability PEP approval. Paul Moore has graciously agreed to
take on that task:
https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-...@python.org/thread/QT7SKORCF6OKWO3OVP5KO6XNGU2AR6TU/
"

I'm not sure what to do in case of equal number of votes. Maybe we
need a dictator per PEP. Or at least per area of the code :-) We
already have kind of experts per area.

> I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
> yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.

A well deserved break ;-)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for
> a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.
> 
> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
> still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
> available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
> giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be
> on your own.
> 
> After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
> that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
> spare you the list of medical issues.)
> 
> I am not going to appoint a successor.
> 
> So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
> dictatorship? A federation?

Thanks for being our beloved BDFL for so many years!

The mail doesn't come to an suprise, although I didn't think it would
hit my inbox this year or next year. I've been pondering about possible
succession for you for a while. In my opinion we need some trusted
entity to have final say. Otherwise we are going to waste^H^H^H^H^H
spend too much time in bike shedding. But I don't see one clear person
to take your place as BDFL.

How about a form of presbyterian polity in the form of a triumvirate or
quintumvirate? (For those with a lucky childhood that didn't involve
Latin and Greek: ruling of elders with three or five powerful
individuals). It would spread the load and responsibilities between
multiple core devs.

I would consider (in alphabetical order) Barry, Brett, Mariatta, Mark,
Nick, or Victor as potential members. Each persons has been a core dev
for a long time and would brings a unique perspective into the
quintumvirate. For example Mark Shannon has an academic background in
language design.

Regards,
Christian
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[python-committers] Transfer of power

[Guido van Rossum]

Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a
PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions.

I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll
still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be
available to mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically
giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on
your own.

After all that's eventually going to happen regardless -- there's still
that bus lurking around the corner, and I'm not getting younger... (I'll
spare you the list of medical issues.)

I am not going to appoint a successor.

So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A
dictatorship? A federation?

I'm not worried about the day to day decisions in the issue tracker or on
GitHub. Very rarely I get asked for an opinion, and usually it's not
actually important. So this can just be dealt with as it has always been.

The decisions that most matter are probably
- How are PEPs decided
- How are new core devs inducted

We may be able to write up processes for these things as PEPs (maybe those
PEPs will form a kind of constitution). But here's the catch. I'm going to
try and let you all (the current committers) figure it out for yourselves.

Note that there's still the CoC -- if you don't like that document your
only option might be to leave this group voluntarily. Perhaps there are
issues to decide like when should someone be kicked out (this could be
banning people from python-dev or python-ideas too, since those are also
covered by the CoC).

Finally. A reminder that the archives of this list are public (
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/) although membership
is closed (limited to core devs).

I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for
yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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