Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
> On Sep 21, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > Le 21/09/2018 à 12:55, Christian Heimes a écrit : >> On 21/09/2018 12.46, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> >>> Le 21/09/2018 à 02:06, Nathaniel Smith a écrit : Now sure, that taboo is an American thing, and I wouldn't support automatically banning someone who used it in genuine ignorance, was repentant when they realized what they'd done, etc. >>> >>> So why are American taboos specifically forbidden, and not other taboos? >>> Is there anything special about Americans that deserves this? Does it >>> mean that Python is a community for Americans foremost, and others are >>> just second-class participants? The more this is going on, the more it >>> is the impression I get, and things have become distinctly *worse* recently. >> >> I don't understand why you are drawing the reverse conclusion here. Can >> you give me one concrete example, in which a French, German, or any >> other non-US American taboo was violated and not counteracted with swift >> reaction? > > I don't know of specifically French linguistic taboos, so I'm unable to > answer this. French culture generally doesn't ban words wholesale, even > when used in quotes. The very idea that you can't *quote* something > despicable is foreign here. > > But, were it to exist, I have a hard time imagining it would face > immediate permanent banning on python-XXX. And I would be against such > immediate permanent banning, because that's inappropriately strong and > definitive. > Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words. IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept and trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python language. From the original post: Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she can count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult wont reduce you to tears, right ? > Regards > > Antoine. > ___ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:38, Carol Willing wrote: > Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words. > > IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept and > trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python language. > > From the original post: > > Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a > sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she can > count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to > beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult > wont reduce you to tears, right ? I agree - *but* there's a whole lot more I wish I could say, about context, and looking at how the conversation reached that point. But I won't, because frankly I'm scared to do so. I don't trust myself to explain my feelings without doing so in a way that people find offensive, and suffering a backlash that I didn't intend to trigger, and which won't help the discussion. I'm not sure that "I'm too scared to participate in this discussion" is where we want to be, though... Paul ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
Hi Paul, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Fear of speaking or fear of reading - both are not ideal. The balance of respectful discourse likely falls somewhere between the two. Context is important. I wonder though if the author's intent was constructive comment... On Fri, Sep 21, 2018, 8:01 AM Paul Moore wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:38, Carol Willing wrote: > > > Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words. > > > > IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept > and trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python > language. > > > > From the original post: > > > > Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a > > sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she > can > > count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to > > beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult > > wont reduce you to tears, right ? > > I agree - *but* there's a whole lot more I wish I could say, about > context, and looking at how the conversation reached that point. > > But I won't, because frankly I'm scared to do so. I don't trust myself > to explain my feelings without doing so in a way that people find > offensive, and suffering a backlash that I didn't intend to trigger, > and which won't help the discussion. > > I'm not sure that "I'm too scared to participate in this discussion" > is where we want to be, though... > Paul > ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
> On Sep 21, 2018, at 8:01 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:38, Carol Willing wrote: > >> Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words. >> >> IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept and >> trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python language. >> >> From the original post: >> >> Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a >> sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she can >> count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to >> beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult >> wont reduce you to tears, right ? > > I agree - *but* there's a whole lot more I wish I could say, about > context, and looking at how the conversation reached that point. > > But I won't, because frankly I'm scared to do so. I don't trust myself > to explain my feelings without doing so in a way that people find > offensive, and suffering a backlash that I didn't intend to trigger, > and which won't help the discussion. > > I'm not sure that "I'm too scared to participate in this discussion" > is where we want to be, though… I think that this is being framed somewhat poorly. The idea that the problem is that someone might be “offended” is I think the wrong take away. People can choose all manner of things to be offended by and just because someone might take offense to a statement, doesn’t mean that the statement is inherently something that cannot be uttered here. For instance, someone might take offense if you say that you think it’s easier to write clean code in Python than Brainfuck (or perhaps that pip is the best or worst package installer ;) ), but that doesn’t mean that you can’t express that opinion. What I think the real problem is, things that attack people, particularly for some inherent thing they are or something that has happened to them outside of their control or the like. Sometimes that can come across as “well someone might take offense to the use of this word”, and it’s important I think to remember why that word has that particular connotation. If you spent a lifetime having someone shout “Python!” and then a bucket of cold water dumped on you, you would likely start to get a bit afraid anytime you heard someone say “Python”, when you’d look for that next bucket. That’s a really silly example, but there are groups of people who *to this day* are attacked in one form of another simply for who they are, and there are a lot of things associated with those attacks, be it words, or images, or what have you, and the mere use of those words, images, or whatever can make those groups of people feel like the space they’re in is one that is likely to attack them too. That’s not just about the specific word used in the original post, but also things like making joke of assault and similar as well. It’s particularly troublesome in a society that doesn’t entirely believe that those things are wrong. So part of being and open and welcoming community, is knowing and understanding that words, images, etc like that can make people feel like we’re either a group that will directly engage in those attacks that have been associated with them in the past, or at least won’t come to their aid if someone does initiate those kinds of attack. This is a bit different than say the use of Master/slave. Those words might make some people feel uncomfortable for sure, but they don’t have the same connotations. Because they make people feel uncomfortable, it’s generally a good idea to avoid using them (particularly when there are better, more descriptive terms available) but that you’re not going to be cast out into the wilderness if you happened to use them. Overall, I think people are generally reasonable, and if you say something “bad”, but you weren’t aware or didn’t mean it that way, people generally accept an apology and then will move on [1]. They might be a bit less unsure of you after that, but if you don’t continue to repeat it, then most people will forget about it and look at it as an isolated incidence. Obviously if you keep doing it, and apologizing each time, at some point people are going to just assume the apology isn’t in earnest. [1] I know this, because I’ve done it. I grew up in let’s say, a very rural setting, and I had expressions that were disparaging to groups of people, that I didn’t really intend to be, it was just something I had always said because it was a common idiom where I grew up. I got called out on it, apologized, and everyone went on their way. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 13:26, Carol Willing wrote: > Context is important. I wonder though if the author's intent was constructive > comment... I'm sure it wasn't. But in context, it was a statement made in a thread that had long previously become nothing more than non-constructive invective. Calling one person out (even though his comments were significantly more extreme than others') strikes me as looking for a culprit, rather than addressing the situation. It's not likely to be a practical option on a mailing list, but in primary school (which the whole conversation felt like) a likely response would have been to put *everyone* involved in a time-out for a period of cooling off, to think about how their behaviour was unacceptable. Think for example of a group of kids taunting each other until one of them snaps and hits someone. Paul ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 13:30, Donald Stufft wrote:
> So part of being and open and welcoming community, is knowing and
> understanding that words, images, etc like that can make people feel like
> we’re either a group that will directly engage in those attacks that have
> been associated with them in the past, or at least won’t come to their aid if
> someone does initiate those kinds of attack.
I'm going to take this one comment and respond to it out of context.
But generally, I agree with everything you said.
My biggest concern is that we're starting to build a community where
people feel exposed to attack for "CoC violation" accusations over
simple misunderstandings, or careless wordings. Or, for that matter,
using terminology that they weren't aware was unacceptable. Not "being
called out (by the offended party), apologising and moving on", but
going straight to policy complaints by people (maybe even people not
directly upset) assuming offense could be claimed. That's clearly
nothing like the sort of problems people with real reason for
sensitivity have to live under, but nevertheless it's not a
comfortable place for people to learn how to interact.
Balance, forgiveness, and a mature level of empathy are what's
*really* needed ("among the things that are needed...":-)). Not
policies. Policies should be weapons of last resort.
Paul
___
python-committers mailing list
python-committers@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
> On Sep 21, 2018, at 8:59 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 13:30, Donald Stufft wrote:
>> So part of being and open and welcoming community, is knowing and
>> understanding that words, images, etc like that can make people feel like
>> we’re either a group that will directly engage in those attacks that have
>> been associated with them in the past, or at least won’t come to their aid
>> if someone does initiate those kinds of attack.
>
> I'm going to take this one comment and respond to it out of context.
> But generally, I agree with everything you said.
>
> My biggest concern is that we're starting to build a community where
> people feel exposed to attack for "CoC violation" accusations over
> simple misunderstandings, or careless wordings. Or, for that matter,
> using terminology that they weren't aware was unacceptable. Not "being
> called out (by the offended party), apologising and moving on", but
> going straight to policy complaints by people (maybe even people not
> directly upset) assuming offense could be claimed. That's clearly
> nothing like the sort of problems people with real reason for
> sensitivity have to live under, but nevertheless it's not a
> comfortable place for people to learn how to interact.
>
> Balance, forgiveness, and a mature level of empathy are what's
> *really* needed ("among the things that are needed...":-)). Not
> policies. Policies should be weapons of last resort.
>
> Paul
So I don’t think that being called out by the aggrieved party is the right
response generally for these sorts of things. I mean, ultimately it depends on
the specific instance, but often times having the person who is feeling
attacked call out the other person, what’s going to happen is that person is
going to feel compelled to respond back in kind and “defend” themselves. Having
a neutral third party there to mediate and calm the situation down is immensely
helpful.
I mean, if you personally did something that made me feel uncomfortable, I’d
probably personally handle it, because we have a rapport already, but if
someone else did there’s a chance I wouldn’t (either because there might be
history there where a specific instance finally spilled over, or because I’m
angry/hurt/whatever and I don’t trust myself to respond).
This also falls into the feeling exposed to attack bit. Generally what the CoC
does should be private, though it’s tough to balance that out with being
transparent too. For instance, we don’t really want to turn CoC enforcement
into it’s own sort of shame. If you were to report me, ideally the way it would
play out is some member of the moderation team / CoC team / whatever would
privately contact me, and tell me to knock it off or whatever. Generally other
people shouldn’t know (unless one of the two sides of the issues chooses to
divulge it) that it happened (although it’s good to publish anonymized reports
too). There should not be some sort of record that the dastardly Paul said
something bad once and had to get reprimanded.
Where it gets harder is when more drastic measures are to be taken. If someone
gets banned for a day in a sort of timeout, should that be public? Probably not
since we want them to come back and ideally be positive contributors from that
point out, and feeling like they’ve been put up on display is probably not
conducive towards that, and being gone for a day is not likely to be something
where other people notice the absence and start to question it. What about a
week? A month? Permanent?
Personally I think that publicizing that a particular person had some action
taken against them is probably the wrong path to take in all severity levels,
and that the CoC team should probably publish some sort of anonymized reports.
These reports basically serve to show people who are worried about feeling
safe/welcome in the community, that if they have a problem they’re likely to be
heard and helped, without putting particular people “on blast”.
Unfortunately our tooling and process isn’t really “here” yet, for instance in
the specific case we’re talking about, if that person was jsut silently banned
than it can feel a bit kafkaesque and since the record of his statement is
permanent and can’t be hidden or something, people looking in from the outside
don’t know that it wasn’t acceptable since they don’t see any action to have
taken place. The ideal situation is probably that the original post ends up
edited, marked, or hidden in some fashion (but doesn’t just disappear) to say
that it was inappropriate in some way (think what GitHub does here with hidden
posts) but that doesn’t otherwise create some sort of notification.
I however, think policies are great! Particularly in a diverse community where
the cultural norms may vary widely amongst all of the participants. It helps
document what the community expects from people, tells you what the process to
take is for remediation of a bad si
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
Le 21/09/2018 à 14:45, Paul Moore a écrit : > > It's not likely to be a practical option on a mailing list, but in > primary school (which the whole conversation felt like) a likely > response would have been to put *everyone* involved in a time-out for > a period of cooling off, to think about how their behaviour was > unacceptable. Think for example of a group of kids taunting each other > until one of them snaps and hits someone. With a forum system, the thread would just have been locked. However, you may not physically lock a mailing-list thread, but you can post a moderator's announcement asking everyone to stop posting to that thread, and warning that failing to comply would get the offender e.g. a 7-day ban (regardless of the contents of their post). Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
> On Sep 21, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > Le 21/09/2018 à 14:45, Paul Moore a écrit : >> >> It's not likely to be a practical option on a mailing list, but in >> primary school (which the whole conversation felt like) a likely >> response would have been to put *everyone* involved in a time-out for >> a period of cooling off, to think about how their behaviour was >> unacceptable. Think for example of a group of kids taunting each other >> until one of them snaps and hits someone. > > With a forum system, the thread would just have been locked. > > However, you may not physically lock a mailing-list thread, but you can > post a moderator's announcement asking everyone to stop posting to that > thread, and warning that failing to comply would get the offender e.g. a > 7-day ban (regardless of the contents of their post). > This seems like a very reasonable stop gap until we have better moderation tools. > Regards > > Antoine. > ___ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
On 09/21/2018 07:51 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le 21/09/2018 à 14:45, Paul Moore a écrit : It's not likely to be a practical option on a mailing list, but in primary school (which the whole conversation felt like) a likely response would have been to put *everyone* involved in a time-out for a period of cooling off, to think about how their behaviour was unacceptable. Think for example of a group of kids taunting each other until one of them snaps and hits someone. With a forum system, the thread would just have been locked. It is certainly not as convenient, but with the current system we can set a spam filter on subject lines and stop threads that way. It is still a pretty rough tool (whole thread, not sub-thread) and a bit awkward to use, but doable. Of course, we still have the problem of speed -- some threads blow up in a matter of hours. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
On 21.09.2018 14:59, Paul Moore wrote:
> Balance, forgiveness, and a mature level of empathy are what's
> *really* needed ("among the things that are needed...":-)). Not
> policies. Policies should be weapons of last resort.
Agreed.
I guess we'll also have to learn that flamebait as we had it in the
old days is now often launched as cocbait.
It'll take some time to get used to this, but we'll have to try
not to fall for it.
--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 25 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
http://www.malemburg.com/
___
python-committers mailing list
python-committers@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
