Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Andrew Svetlov 
+1

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:47 AM Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 6 December 2017 at 11:00, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for Python
> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560,
> 562),
> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
> > others (557, 563).
> >
> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
> >
> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where
> he is
> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
>
> +1 from me - I found him very receptive to feedback and easy to work
> with when discuss his proposed changes to the runtime typing
> machinery.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
> --
> Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Andrew Svetlov
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Carol Willing 
+1 for nice work on the PEPs

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 4:26 AM, Andrew Svetlov  wrote:
> 
> +1
> 
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:47 AM Nick Coghlan  > wrote:
> On 6 December 2017 at 11:00, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for Python
> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560, 562),
> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
> > others (557, 563).
> >
> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
> >
> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where he is
> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
> 
> +1 from me - I found him very receptive to feedback and easy to work
> with when discuss his proposed changes to the runtime typing
> machinery.
> 
> Cheers,
> Nick.
> 
> --
> Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]    |   
> Brisbane, Australia
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> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Andrew Svetlov
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[python-committers] [RELEASE] Python 3.6.4rc1 and 3.7.0a3 now available for testing

2017-12-06 Thread Ned Deily 
Announcing the immediate availability of Python 3.6.4 release candidate 1
and of Python 3.7.0 alpha 3!

Python 3.6.4rc1 is the first release candidate for Python 3.6.4, the next
maintenance release of Python 3.6.  While 3.6.4rc1 is a preview release and,
thus, not intended for production environments, we encourage you to explore
it and provide feedback via the Python bug tracker (https://bugs.python.org).
3.6.4 is planned for final release on 2017-12-18 with the next maintenance
release expected to follow in about 3 months.  You can find Python 3.6.4rc1
and more information here:
https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-364rc1/

Python 3.7.0a3 is the third of four planned alpha releases of Python 3.7,
the next feature release of Python.  During the alpha phase, Python 3.7
remains under heavy development: additional features will be added
and existing features may be modified or deleted.  Please keep in mind
that this is a preview release and its use is not recommended for
production environments.  The next preview release, 3.7.0a4, is planned
for 2018-01-08. You can find Python 3.7.0a3 and more information here:
https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-370a3/

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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Yury Selivanov 
+1 from me.  I first had an idea to give Ivan commit privileges when I
was merging his PEP 526 implementation, so I think it's long overdue.

Yury

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
> (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for Python
> 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560, 562),
> is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
> others (557, 563).
>
> He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
>
> I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where he is
> a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Guido van Rossum 
OK, let's make it so. It's been a long time since I initiated a new
committer -- what has to happen next? I just flipped his committer bit on
bpo, is there anything else that needs to happen?

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Yury Selivanov 
wrote:

> +1 from me.  I first had an idea to give Ivan commit privileges when I
> was merging his PEP 526 implementation, so I think it's long overdue.
>
> Yury
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for Python
> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560,
> 562),
> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
> > others (557, 563).
> >
> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
> >
> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where
> he is
> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> >
> > ___
> > python-committers mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >
>



-- 
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Guido van Rossum 
I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub.
Anything else?

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> OK, let's make it so. It's been a long time since I initiated a new
> committer -- what has to happen next? I just flipped his committer bit on
> bpo, is there anything else that needs to happen?
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Yury Selivanov 
> wrote:
>
>> +1 from me.  I first had an idea to give Ivan commit privileges when I
>> was merging his PEP 526 implementation, so I think it's long overdue.
>>
>> Yury
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Guido van Rossum 
>> wrote:
>> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
>> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for
>> Python
>> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560,
>> 562),
>> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
>> > others (557, 563).
>> >
>> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
>> >
>> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where
>> he is
>> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
>> >
>> > --
>> > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>> >
>> > ___
>> > python-committers mailing list
>> > [email protected]
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>



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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Alex Gaynor 
Someone needs to invite him to this list :-)

On Dec 6, 2017 11:44 AM, "Guido van Rossum"  wrote:

> I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub.
> Anything else?
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>
>> OK, let's make it so. It's been a long time since I initiated a new
>> committer -- what has to happen next? I just flipped his committer bit on
>> bpo, is there anything else that needs to happen?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Yury Selivanov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 from me.  I first had an idea to give Ivan commit privileges when I
>>> was merging his PEP 526 implementation, so I think it's long overdue.
>>>
>>> Yury
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Guido van Rossum 
>>> wrote:
>>> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
>>> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for
>>> Python
>>> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560,
>>> 562),
>>> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in
>>> yet
>>> > others (557, 563).
>>> >
>>> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
>>> >
>>> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where
>>> he is
>>> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > python-committers mailing list
>>> > [email protected]
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>>> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Mariatta Wijaya 
Please add Ivan to the Developer Log in Dev Guide, and he should subscribe
to python-committers mailing list :)



On Dec 6, 2017 8:44 AM, "Guido van Rossum"  wrote:

I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub.
Anything else?
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Ned Deily 
On Dec 6, 2017, at 11:57, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
> On Dec 6, 2017 8:44 AM, "Guido van Rossum"  wrote:
>> I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub. 
>> Anything else?
> Please add Ivan to the Developer Log in Dev Guide, and he should subscribe to 
> python-committers mailing list :) 

It should all be here in the Devguide:

https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#gaining-commit-privileges

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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi,

Ok, thanks Ezio and David. I completed my list:
https://github.com/vstinner/cpython_core_tutorial/blob/master/core_developer.rst#bug-tracker

My initial question is to know if bug triage permission can be seen as
a first "award" / "badge" to recognize that contributions of someone
are useful. Contributions can only be made of code pull requests, or
another "project" tightly coupled to CPython like the documentation,
the development workflow, etc.

My problem is now that the list of requirements is very long. It's
like you should already practice triage for weeks before being seen as
ready to get the triage power.

So do you think that it's bad idea to use triage as an award? Or is it
just a matter of adjusting requirements?

I have a few people in mind that I would like to give them triage
permission, but I don't know that they contributed much to the bug
tracker. I don't expect them to be active on the bug tracker neither.

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread R. David Murray 
On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 08:43:56 -0800, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub.
> Anything else?

He needs to subscribe to this mailing list, and the developers.rst in
the devguide repo should get an update.

That's all I can think of, since ssh keys are now handled by github,
but if there are other github things that need done I might not know
them ;)

Ah, it's all (or should be) in coredev.rst.  I don't see anything else
that needs done, though he should read that doc.

--David
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread R. David Murray 
On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:11:44 +0100, Victor Stinner  
wrote:
> Ok, thanks Ezio and David. I completed my list:
> https://github.com/vstinner/cpython_core_tutorial/blob/master/core_developer.rst#bug-tracker

s/loose/lose/

I would say your list comprises the skills for the "ideal triager" rather
than "good triager", since I think someone can be a good triager without
being and expert in a *all* of the skills you list in that section.
I would expect a triager to develop facility with all those skills,
but not necessarily to have them before they get granted privileges.
(I'd say the second, fourth, fifth, and last are more or less
the minimum to start with, although I'd drop the "which files should
be updated to fix the issue" for that minimum set.)

> My initial question is to know if bug triage permission can be seen as
> a first "award" / "badge" to recognize that contributions of someone
> are useful. Contributions can only be made of code pull requests, or
> another "project" tightly coupled to CPython like the documentation,
> the development workflow, etc.
> 
> My problem is now that the list of requirements is very long. It's
> like you should already practice triage for weeks before being seen as
> ready to get the triage power.
> 
> So do you think that it's bad idea to use triage as an award? Or is it
> just a matter of adjusting requirements?

Yes I think it is a bad idea to "use it" as an award.  It is not an
award, it is a functional set of privileges.  It *can be* part of the
on-boarding process for a contributor who eventually becomes a core dev,
though, and in that path it functions as an award of sorts.

> I have a few people in mind that I would like to give them triage
> permission, but I don't know that they contributed much to the bug
> tracker. I don't expect them to be active on the bug tracker neither.

It they are not going to be active on the bug tracker, why do you want
to give them triage permissions?  If they haven't been active at least
a little bit on the bug tracker, how do you know they are good candidate
to be a triager?

What do they need the privileges for?  I'm not necessarily saying they
shouldn't get them, I want to explore the why in order to inform this
discussion.  But, if you just want to give it to them as an award and
for no other reason, I'd vote no.  If you want a badge to give them,
maybe we make up a badge ;)

--David
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[python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi,

To recognize the good contributions of Cheryl Sabella, I gave her the
bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave her
the permission.)

In the past, such "promotion" wasn't always advertized on
python-committers, but my intent is to make our process more
transparent and award people who deserve it!

IMHO bug triage is the first step/milestone to become a core developer
in the long term.

FYI She pushed not less than 14 commits into the master branch since
August, 2017.

Congrats Cheryl!

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Ezio Melotti 
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Ok, thanks Ezio and David. I completed my list:
> https://github.com/vstinner/cpython_core_tutorial/blob/master/core_developer.rst#bug-tracker
>
> My initial question is to know if bug triage permission can be seen as
> a first "award" / "badge" to recognize that contributions of someone
> are useful. Contributions can only be made of code pull requests, or
> another "project" tightly coupled to CPython like the documentation,
> the development workflow, etc.
>
> My problem is now that the list of requirements is very long. It's
> like you should already practice triage for weeks before being seen as
> ready to get the triage power.
>
> So do you think that it's bad idea to use triage as an award? Or is it
> just a matter of adjusting requirements?
>

Depends on what you exactly mean with "award".
Contributors might want to be able to edit more fields on the tracker,
and the triage bit allows them to do it.  This is beneficial for both
the contributor and the other triagers, since they have one more
helping hand.  If the contributor knows what they are doing and they
are helpful, we can "award" them with the triager bit, but this award
shouldn't be given for unrelated accomplishments.
Becoming a triager is a step to becoming a committer: we bestow them
with some responsibility and trust, and if they do well, we can give
them even more with the committer bit.

Best Regards,
Ezio Melotti

> I have a few people in mind that I would like to give them triage
> permission, but I don't know that they contributed much to the bug
> tracker. I don't expect them to be active on the bug tracker neither.
>
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Mariatta Wijaya 
Congrats Cheryl!!

Thanks for your continued contributions!


On Dec 6, 2017 9:43 AM, "Victor Stinner"  wrote:

Hi,

To recognize the good contributions of Cheryl Sabella, I gave her the
bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave her
the permission.)

In the past, such "promotion" wasn't always advertized on
python-committers, but my intent is to make our process more
transparent and award people who deserve it!

IMHO bug triage is the first step/milestone to become a core developer
in the long term.

FYI She pushed not less than 14 commits into the master branch since
August, 2017.

Congrats Cheryl!

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Eric Snow 
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Victor Stinner
 wrote:
> To recognize the good contributions of Cheryl Sabella, I gave her the
> bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave her
> the permission.)
>
> In the past, such "promotion" wasn't always advertized on
> python-committers, but my intent is to make our process more
> transparent and award people who deserve it!

+1

> IMHO bug triage is the first step/milestone to become a core developer
> in the long term.

+1

> FYI She pushed not less than 14 commits into the master branch since
> August, 2017.

Nice!

> Congrats Cheryl!

A hearty +1!  Keep up the good work, Cheryl.

-eric
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Brett Cannon 
I just approve Ivan's subscription request to this list.

And I know it's late, but a resounding +1 to this happening!

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 at 09:21 R. David Murray  wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 08:43:56 -0800, Guido van Rossum 
> wrote:
> > I think I figured it out -- I invited him to the python org on GitHub.
> > Anything else?
>
> He needs to subscribe to this mailing list, and the developers.rst in
> the devguide repo should get an update.
>
> That's all I can think of, since ssh keys are now handled by github,
> but if there are other github things that need done I might not know
> them ;)
>
> Ah, it's all (or should be) in coredev.rst.  I don't see anything else
> that needs done, though he should read that doc.
>
> --David
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Mariatta Wijaya 
Welcome to the team, Ivan!

Mariatta Wijaya
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Ethan Furman 

On 12/06/2017 09:43 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:


Congrats Cheryl!


Possibly a dumb question, but is Cheryl on this list?

--
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Ethan Furman 

Ivan,

Welcome!  Glad to have you!

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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Mariatta Wijaya 
Not dumb question.

But I don't think Cheryl is on this list.

not yet ;)

On Dec 6, 2017 10:25 AM, "Ethan Furman"  wrote:

> On 12/06/2017 09:43 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
>
> Congrats Cheryl!
>>
>
> Possibly a dumb question, but is Cheryl on this list?
>
> --
>
>
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Carol Willing 


> On Dec 6, 2017, at 11:43 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> To recognize the good contributions of Cheryl Sabella, I gave her the
> bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave her
> the permission.)

Congrats Cheryl for the great work that you have done so far :D

Also, thanks Ezio and Victor for recognizing the good work too.

Warmly,

Carol

> 
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Ned Deily 
On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:45, Ezio Melotti  wrote:
> Depends on what you exactly mean with "award".
> Contributors might want to be able to edit more fields on the tracker,
> and the triage bit allows them to do it.  This is beneficial for both
> the contributor and the other triagers, since they have one more
> helping hand.  If the contributor knows what they are doing and they
> are helpful, we can "award" them with the triager bit, but this award
> shouldn't be given for unrelated accomplishments.
> Becoming a triager is a step to becoming a committer: we bestow them
> with some responsibility and trust, and if they do well, we can give
> them even more with the committer bit.

In general, I agree with David's and Ezio's comments, in particular the idea 
that "bug triage" should not be an "award" nor a necessary first step towards 
being a committer.  I think the skills necessary to be a good bug triager are 
not the same as being a good core developer.  While the skill sets and 
experience level needed can overlap, I think we should consider the two roles 
as separate "career paths".  In other words, some people would do a fine job as 
triager without wanting to be a core developer or contributing their own code 
patches, and that's fine.

--
  Ned Deily
  [email protected] -- []

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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 12/6/2017 1:45 PM, Ned Deily wrote:

On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:45, Ezio Melotti  wrote:

Depends on what you exactly mean with "award".
Contributors might want to be able to edit more fields on the tracker,
and the triage bit allows them to do it.  This is beneficial for both
the contributor and the other triagers, since they have one more
helping hand.  If the contributor knows what they are doing and they
are helpful, we can "award" them with the triager bit, but this award
shouldn't be given for unrelated accomplishments.
Becoming a triager is a step to becoming a committer: we bestow them
with some responsibility and trust, and if they do well, we can give
them even more with the committer bit.


In general, I agree with David's and Ezio's comments, in particular the idea that "bug triage" 
should not be an "award" nor a necessary first step towards being a committer.  I think the skills 
necessary to be a good bug triager are not the same as being a good core developer.  While the skill sets and 
experience level needed can overlap, I think we should consider the two roles as separate "career 
paths".  In other words, some people would do a fine job as triager without wanting to be a core 
developer or contributing their own code patches, and that's fine.


I agree.  Database maintenance is a separate skill and interest from the 
3 skills of patch writing, reviewing, and merging.  Committers need to 
be able to maintain and ultimately close the issues they work on, but 
need not engage in general tracker gardening.


tjr


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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Ivan Levkivskyi 
Thank you Mariatta, Ethan, Eric, Guido, and everyone!
I am overwhelmed by all the positive comments!

I am so glad to be the part of the team and looking forward to make more
contributions.
(Will start right now form polishing PEP 560 and PEP 562 implementation :-)

--
Ivan


On 6 December 2017 at 19:20, Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> Welcome to the team, Ivan!
>
> Mariatta Wijaya
>
>
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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

2017-12-06 Thread Zachary Ware 
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Ivan Levkivskyi  wrote:
> Thank you Mariatta, Ethan, Eric, Guido, and everyone!
> I am overwhelmed by all the positive comments!
>
> I am so glad to be the part of the team and looking forward to make more
> contributions.
> (Will start right now form polishing PEP 560 and PEP 562 implementation :-)

Welcome to the team, Ivan :)

-- 
Zach
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[python-committers] Sanyam Khurana has been promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi,

To recognize the good contributions of Sanyam Khurana, I gave him the
bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave him
the permission.)

He already commited 9 changes into the master branch since April, 2017.

Congrats Sanyam!

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-12-06 18:41 GMT+01:00 R. David Murray :
> s/loose/lose/

Oops, fixed, thanks.

>> So do you think that it's bad idea to use triage as an award? Or is it
>> just a matter of adjusting requirements?
>
> Yes I think it is a bad idea to "use it" as an award.  It is not an
> award, it is a functional set of privileges.  It *can be* part of the
> on-boarding process for a contributor who eventually becomes a core dev,
> though, and in that path it functions as an award of sorts.

My initial problem is the huge gap between "regular contributor" and
"core developer". Currently, we have a single huge step which is very
hard to climb.

I'm trying to create new smaller steps and describe each step. The
goal is to have a clear path with requirements for each step.

Before becoming a core developer, I see bug triage as a first step.

I already proposed on this step to add a second step before core
developer: getting a mentor.

Newcomer => contributor => bug triage => getting a mentor => core developer

It would help to have sub-steps, but it can be adjusted later ;-)


>> I have a few people in mind that I would like to give them triage
>> permission, but I don't know that they contributed much to the bug
>> tracker. I don't expect them to be active on the bug tracker neither.
>
> It they are not going to be active on the bug tracker, why do you want
> to give them triage permissions?  If they haven't been active at least
> a little bit on the bug tracker, how do you know they are good candidate
> to be a triager?
>
> What do they need the privileges for?  I'm not necessarily saying they
> shouldn't get them, I want to explore the why in order to inform this
> discussion.  But, if you just want to give it to them as an award and
> for no other reason, I'd vote no.  If you want a badge to give them,
> maybe we make up a badge ;)

It's not because you give the commit bit contributors that they will
become very active. My expectation is more than giving more priviledge
would motive them to become move active.

A contributor without the triage priviledge cannot triage bugs...

I'm not sure that "an award" is the best word sorry. Mariatta already
corrected me when I wrote that becoming a core developer gives more
power, she replied that it gives more *responsabilities*. It's the
same here :-)

By the way, my final goal is to get more people aboard to better scale
horizontal for the Python workflow ;-) I suck at many things in
Python, and I'm very happy to see new "faces" helping on areas where
I'm unable to help. For example, Cheryl Sabella is working on the IDLE
application, whereas I don't know much about Tkinter nor IDLE. But
IDLE is a popular application since it's installed with Python, and
used by teachers. He also likes when other people help on the
documentation since it's a big task and we never have enough hands to
work on the doc!

Does it make any sense to you? :-)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-12-06 18:45 GMT+01:00 Ezio Melotti :
> Depends on what you exactly mean with "award".

See my reply to David.


> If the contributor knows what they are doing and they
> are helpful, we can "award" them with the triager bit, but this award
> shouldn't be given for unrelated accomplishments.

My problem is that we don't have a long list of "awards" in Python:
the triage bit and the commit bit...

I had some ideas to create badges, but before I come with something
concrete, I'm trying to build something with what we already have ;-)


> Becoming a triager is a step to becoming a committer: we bestow them
> with some responsibility and trust, and if they do well, we can give
> them even more with the committer bit.

Oh, this is exactly my intent. Sorry if I picked the wrong words :-p

I promoted Cheryl Sabella and Sanyam Khurana to encourage them to
become even more active ;-)

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella was promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-12-06 23:07 GMT+01:00 Cheryl Sabella :
> Wow, this is a shock!

I'm sorry, maybe I had to warn you before? ;-)

> Thank you, Victor, Ezio, and everyone else.  This is
> such an amazing and welcoming community, so thank you for letting me be a
> part of it.

You're welcome.

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Le 06/12/2017 à 23:06, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> 
> My initial problem is the huge gap between "regular contributor" and
> "core developer". Currently, we have a single huge step which is very
> hard to climb.

I wonder: is this the right question to ask?  There are contributors who
will never become core developers.  It's not a failure.  How many of us
actually hoped or expected to become a core developer when they started
contributing?

The real issue is not that the step is hard to climb, but that it is
hard to get people interested in climbing that step (and continue being
active afterwards, even though the step has been climbed).  It is to get
people interested in the tasks and responsibilities (sometimes
annoyances) of being a core developer.

> It's not because you give the commit bit contributors that they will
> become very active. My expectation is more than giving more priviledge
> would motive them to become move active.

I don't think the latter works any better than the former :-)

> A contributor without the triage priviledge cannot triage bugs...

Yes, so it's more a question of giving them the tools necessary to do
what they want to do.  Not of giving them an award or a privilege :-)

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-12-06 23:35 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> The real issue is not that the step is hard to climb, but that it is
> hard to get people interested in climbing that step (and continue being
> active afterwards, even though the step has been climbed).  It is to get
> people interested in the tasks and responsibilities (sometimes
> annoyances) of being a core developer.

What do you propose?

Victor
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[python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi,

I wrote a quick & dirty parser to compute statistics on *new* CPython
core developer per year using the following page as data:
https://devguide.python.org/developers/

2007: 15
2008: 19
2009: 11
2010: 20
2011: 12
2012: 9
2013: 4
2014: 10
2015: 2
2016: 5
2017: 2

Compare these numbers to Stéphane Wirtel's statistics on pull requests:
   https://speakerdeck.com/matrixise/cpython-loves-your-pull-requests

=> Number of active core developerson on GitHub pull requests: 27
(stats from February 2017 to October 2017)
(I'm not sure of the meaning of this number, it's the number of core
developer who authored pull requests, I don't think that it counts
core developers who only made reviews.)

If you look at the size of the source code, it's still growing
constanly since 1990:
https://www.openhub.net/p/python/

2007: around 783k lines
2010: around 683k lines
2013: around 800k lines
2015: around 875k lines
2017: around 973k lines

The number of bugs is also constanly growing. Statistics on bugs since 2011:
https://bugs.python.org/issue?@template=stats

2011: around 2500 open issues
2013: around 4000 open issues
2015: around 5000 open issues
2017: around 6200 open issues

The size of the CPython project is constantly growing as its
complexity (technical debt? what is this? :-)), but the growth of core
developers is slowing down.

I do consider that we need more people to handle the growing number of
issues and pull requests, so the question is now how to find and
"hire" (sorry, promote) them ;-)

Maybe we have a problem with mentoring. Maybe the CPython code base
became too hard to train newcomers? Maybe we are too conservative? I
don't know.

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Sanyam Khurana has been promoted to get bug triage permission

2017-12-06 Thread Senthil Kumaran 
Congratulations, and Welcome Sanyam!.

Thank you, and keep up with your good work.



On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> To recognize the good contributions of Sanyam Khurana, I gave him the
> bug triage permission on bugs.python.org. (In practice, Ezio gave him
> the permission.)
>
> He already commited 9 changes into the master branch since April, 2017.
>
> Congrats Sanyam!
>
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Le 07/12/2017 à 00:00, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> 2017-12-06 23:35 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :
>> The real issue is not that the step is hard to climb, but that it is
>> hard to get people interested in climbing that step (and continue being
>> active afterwards, even though the step has been climbed).  It is to get
>> people interested in the tasks and responsibilities (sometimes
>> annoyances) of being a core developer.
> 
> What do you propose?

I would like to propose the following postulate: given a certain number
of contributors, only a small fraction of them (for example 10%) is
actually interested in becoming a core developer and handling the
responsibilities thereof.  We cannot really increase that fraction as it
is tied to personal factors (time, motivation).

Therefore, we should strive to attract more contributors in the hope
that the number of core developers selected out of those contributors
will also increase.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Le 07/12/2017 à 00:17, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> 
> Maybe we have a problem with mentoring. Maybe the CPython code base
> became too hard to train newcomers? Maybe we are too conservative? I
> don't know.

The language moved at a faster pace back then (especially with Python
3), which made it easier to find ways to contribute without getting into
boring or overly tedious topics.

Also, I think its image is simply changing.  10 years ago, Python still
stood out as something cool and a bit special.  Now it's regarded as
established and mature, and it certainly changes its attractivity among
the kind of people who are keen to do volunteer contributions to free /
open source software.

Can this be reversed? I don't know.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 12:17:04AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:

> If you look at the size of the source code, it's still growing
> constanly since 1990:
> https://www.openhub.net/p/python/
> 
> 2007: around 783k lines
> 2010: around 683k lines

What happened between 2007 and 2010 that the source shrank by nearly 
13%?



-- 
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On Dec 6, 2017, at 18:17, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> I wrote a quick & dirty parser to compute statistics on *new* CPython
> core developer per year using the following page as data:
> https://devguide.python.org/developers/
> 
> 2007: 15
> 2008: 19
> 2009: 11
> 2010: 20
> 2011: 12
> 2012: 9
> 2013: 4
> 2014: 10
> 2015: 2
> 2016: 5
> 2017: 2

Thanks for the analysis.  Let’s do everything we can to get some of these newer 
core devs to the Language Summit in 2018!

-Barry



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[python-committers] Promote Julien Palard as core developer

2017-12-06 Thread Victor Stinner 
Hi,

I propose to promote Julien Palard as a core developer.

Julien Palard is leading the french translation of the Python
documentation since 2 or 3 years. He spent a lot of time to try to get
this translation online. Since he was unlucky on the python-ideas
mailing list, I convinced him to write down a PEP. He wrote it with
Naoki INADA (who is translated the documentation to Japanese) and me.
It wasn't easy to write the PEP and get it approved: it took almost 1
year and a half! The PEP 545 was approved and implemented in Python
3.7!

   https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0545/

Thanks to Julien (and others), translated documentations are now online at:

  https://docs.python.org/fr/ -- French
  https://docs.python.org/ja/ -- Japanese

See also the What's New in Python 3.7 entry:
https://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.7.html#documentation

Julien spent a lot of time to fix a lot of various issues in the
documentation, the docsbuild-scripts project used to build the CPython
documentation, Sphinx, etc. to be able to translate properly the
documentation.

For me, the documentation and the docsbuild-scripts project are
tightly coupled to the CPython project. Last june, I even asked to
give the commit bit to Julien on the
https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/ project on this list,
since I expected that this project was part of CPython (it isn't, it's
another "team" on GitHub, if I understood correctly) :-) In the
meanwhile, Julien became a "core developer" on this project as well.

He also worked closely with the Python infra team to fix a few bugs
when the translated documentation was published at python.org.

To come back to CPython itself, Julien Palard already got 18 commits
merged into the master branch since January 2016: 11 before GitHub
("patch by Julien Palard") + 7 since CPython migrated to GitHub
("Julien Palard" author). Most of his commits are related to the
Python documentation content and tooling to build the documentation.
He fixed "bugs" in the documentation, to clarify some documentation.

Giving him the commit bit would ease his work, since too few people
are looking at these areas of the code. When I reviewed his patches,
they are usually good after one or two iterations, and Julien welcomes
criticism.

I know that Julien doesn't have the typical profile of core
developers, only or mostly contribute to the code: Julien is currently
focused on the doculmentation. But I believe (because he told me so
;-)) that Julien will slowly contribute to other areas of the code,
once he will feel more confortable, and I may guide him in the code if
needed. I think that many of us started to contribute to a project on
its documentation ;-)

I don't think that he needs an official menthor since he already knows
well the CPython workflow, and he knows how to ask questions if needed
;-)

Promoting Julien is part of my global idea/project of trying to
recognize more contributions which are not strictly code, but as
useful or even more useful than code! Python documentation is part of
Python's success. I was told many times that Python has a good
documentation, it's nice to hear that ! IMHO reducing CPython to its C
and Python code is wrong and nor fair, CPython made of much more
"sub-projects".

Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Carol Willing 


> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Therefore, we should strive to attract more contributors in the hope
> that the number of core developers selected out of those contributors
> will also increase.
> 

Some very good discussion and points are being made here.

Bravo to Victor (and Ezio as well as others) for taking the initiative to 
foster contributors and recognizing / thanking them for their contributions. I 
think what Antoine pointed out about having the tools / permissions to be 
effective at contributing in whatever capacity is also very important. 

Having recognition without the tools or tools without recognition isn't 
optimal. Having both leads to the greatest likelihood for future contributions 
from an individual. Feeling valued and being effective are both critical to 
keeping a contributor engaged in the community. 

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Re: [python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 7 December 2017 at 10:19, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 12:17:04AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
>
>> If you look at the size of the source code, it's still growing
>> constanly since 1990:
>> https://www.openhub.net/p/python/
>>
>> 2007: around 783k lines
>> 2010: around 683k lines
>
> What happened between 2007 and 2010 that the source shrank by nearly
> 13%?

My guess would be that it's a consequence of Python 3 becoming the
default branch.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

2017-12-06 Thread Berker Peksağ 
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:06 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> A contributor without the triage priviledge cannot triage bugs...

I don't see this as a big problem. There are many ways to do issue
triaging (you need to follow python-checkins, know how to use tools
like 'git blame' etc.) so I don't think it's possible document every
single step in the devguide. The best way to learn how to triage an
issue is to follow core developers closely. That's what I did when I
was a contributor.

Giving people an 'award' early may risk introducing unnecessary noise
on tracker. I understand that it's not end of the world, but note that
every wrong action needs to be reverted by another volunteer. I'd
prefer having less triagers if we are going to end up with messages
like:

* This issue is open for N years so I think it can be closed (Age of
an issue is not important)
* This issue appears to be fixed. Closing. (They didn't explain why
they think it's fixed. They have to find the commit that fixed the
issue or upload a simple script that shows the issue is fixed or use
an existing script to show that it's fixed)

--Berker
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Re: [python-committers] Statistics: growth of core dev number vs growth of the code size/complexity

2017-12-06 Thread Berker Peksağ 
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wrote a quick & dirty parser to compute statistics on *new* CPython
> core developer per year using the following page as data:
> https://devguide.python.org/developers/
>
> 2007: 15
> 2008: 19
> 2009: 11
> 2010: 20
> 2011: 12
> 2012: 9
> 2013: 4
> 2014: 10
> 2015: 2
> 2016: 5
> 2017: 2
>
> Compare these numbers to Stéphane Wirtel's statistics on pull requests:
>https://speakerdeck.com/matrixise/cpython-loves-your-pull-requests
>
> => Number of active core developerson on GitHub pull requests: 27
> (stats from February 2017 to October 2017)
> (I'm not sure of the meaning of this number, it's the number of core
> developer who authored pull requests, I don't think that it counts
> core developers who only made reviews.)

Is there an easy way to merge the first two stats? It would be
interesting to see a table like this:

Number of active core developers |Year of their first commit

4 |2012
3 |2014
...

--Berker
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