Re: [python-committers] Save the date: Core developer sprints

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 18.03.2018 03:16, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
> 
> On 03/07/2018 09:25 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
>> So far, I have locked in dates and a building. Assuming no disasters,
>> we will have Microsoft Building 20
>> 
>> for our (almost) exclusive use from *September 10^th until the 14^th
>> *. This is a set aside building for guests, which should mean no NDAs
>> are required, and we’ll have a large space to use with a small kitchen
>> and a few conference rooms.
> 
> FWIW this butts up against PyCon UK 2018, which starts Saturday
> September 15th and runs for five days.  I suppose it's getting harder
> and harder to throw a dart at a wall calendar and land on a date which
> *doesn't* have a PyCon running.  But still, I can think of one person
> who might have otherwise planned on attending both.*
You can use the Python event calendar to improve your dart skills :-)

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar#Available_Calendars

(or is this cheating ?)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 18 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

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D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
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Re: [python-committers] Save the date: Core developer sprints

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 18.03.2018 17:44, Steve Dower wrote:
> If PyCon UK was in the calendar, then it would be cheating, but since
> September 2018 appears totally open... :)

Hmm, looks like the UK folks forgot to submit this. I've added it
now.
> Larry – hopefully being close to home (#1) means you can join for the
> first few days. You won’t force someone else to miss out completely,
> we'll have room.
> 
>  
> 
> Top-posted from my Windows phone
> 
>  
> 
> *From: *M.-A. Lemburg <mailto:m...@egenix.com>
> *Sent: *Sunday, March 18, 2018 5:50
> *To: *Larry Hastings <mailto:la...@hastings.org>;
> python-committers@python.org <mailto:python-committers@python.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [python-committers] Save the date: Core developer sprints
> 
>  
> 
> On 18.03.2018 03:16, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
>>
> 
>>
> 
>> On 03/07/2018 09:25 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
> 
>>> So far, I have locked in dates and a building. Assuming no disasters,
> 
>>> we will have Microsoft Building 20
> 
>>>
> <https://www.bing.com/maps/?pc=W8AP=MAPXSH=47.643699,-122.131305=3709+157th+Ave+NE%2C+Redmond%2C+WA+98052=1>
> 
>>> for our (almost) exclusive use from *September 10^th until the 14^th
> 
>>> *. This is a set aside building for guests, which should mean no NDAs
> 
>>> are required, and we’ll have a large space to use with a small kitchen
> 
>>> and a few conference rooms.
> 
>>
> 
>> FWIW this butts up against PyCon UK 2018, which starts Saturday
> 
>> September 15th and runs for five days.  I suppose it's getting harder
> 
>> and harder to throw a dart at a wall calendar and land on a date which
> 
>> *doesn't* have a PyCon running.  But still, I can think of one person
> 
>> who might have otherwise planned on attending both.*
> 
> You can use the Python event calendar to improve your dart skills :-)
> 
>  
> 
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar#Available_Calendars
> 
>  
> 
> (or is this cheating ?)
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> 
> eGenix.com
> 
>  
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 18 2018)
> 
>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> 
>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> 
>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
> 
>  
> 
>    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> 
>     D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
> 
>    Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
> 
>    http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
> 
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
> 
>  
> 
> ___
> 
> python-committers mailing list
> 
> python-committers@python.org
> 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> 
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
>  
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 18 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] Timeline to vote for a governance PEP

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 15.11.2018 19:55, Brett Cannon wrote:
> 
> It seems like we're completely skipping the review phase of the
> regular PEP process and going straight from PEP writing to
> a vote:
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/#id38
> 
> which is odd given the importance of this decision and also
> odd compared to normal democratic procedures where laws are
> first crafted, then put through parliament for discussion and
> then decided upon after everyone has had a reasonable chance
> for review. 
> 
>  
> I don't know if it's really fair to say the review phase is being
> skipped. It's not like anyone *must* vote tomorrow and so there really
> isn't any time to think things over. You still have the rest of the
> month to review the PEPs and place your vote. It's no different than
> someone following a PEP closely, forming their opinion along the way,
> and then when the final version lands replying with an opinion
> immediately even if the PEP delegate isn't making a final decision for
> another two weeks.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. With "review" I meant debating the PEPs
among everyone, not just the few people interested in working
on them in the crafting stages.

You normally start debating a proposal when the proposal itself
is fleshed out to the point where the people behind the proposal
feel comfortable with presenting it.

The two weeks voting period is not two weeks because people need
time for debate; it's two weeks to enable people to participate
in the vote and deliberately longer to make sure they
have a reasonable chance to vote - even when they are on vacation,
a business trip or have other appointments during those two weeks
which keep them from going to a vote.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 15 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] Timeline to vote for a governance PEP

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 15.11.2018 19:39, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Based on my suggestion on Discourse, I propose that the period between 
> tomorrow and November 30th be an official PEP review period, with voting 
> postponed to December 1 - 16 AOE 2018.
> 
> https://github.com/python/peps/pull/841
> 
> I am personally going to start reviewing these PEPs after the flood of 
> trypophan is unleashed into my bloodstream following the USA Thanksgiving 
> meal.

+1

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 15 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] Timeline to vote for a governance PEP

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I find it rather unusual that we are pushed to vote on PEPs
which will just have been finished in writing tonight.

Shouldn't people who were not involved in the individual creation
processes at least get two weeks to review the final work
to make up their mind before entering a voting period ?

It seems like we're completely skipping the review phase of the
regular PEP process and going straight from PEP writing to
a vote:

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/#id38

which is odd given the importance of this decision and also
odd compared to normal democratic procedures where laws are
first crafted, then put through parliament for discussion and
then decided upon after everyone has had a reasonable chance
for review.

For the people who have been heavily involved in the PEP creations
this may seem unnecessary, but this is just small subset of the
core developers.


BTW: Thank you for writing up the comparison. I hope you have
updated to the resp. final versions of the PEPs as well :-)


On 15.11.2018 13:08, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 03:37, Victor Stinner  a écrit :
>> According to the PEP 8001: "The vote will happen in a 2-week-long
>> window from November 16 2018 to November 30 (Anywhere-on-Earth)." It's
>> now in less than two weeks.
> 
> It seems like the vote is going to start tomorrow, but see discussions at:
> 
> - 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/does-the-nov-16-nov-30-voting-timeframe-still-work/434
> - 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-801x-authors-are-you-on-track-for-the-vote-between-nov-16-nov-30/432
> 
> For the 3 core developers (on 95) who didn't fill their email address
> in the voters repository, please do so! (I sent you an email :-))
> 
> => https://github.com/python/voters/issues/1
> 
> Note: This repository is private and will remain private, only
> accessible to core developers (to not leak your email addresses).
> 
> 
>> I see that the PEP 8001 is still being updated (voting method). Should
>> we still expect new changes before the vote starts? Can we set a
>> deadline, like November 15 (Anywhere-on-Earth)?
>> (...)
>> What is the deadline to submit new governance PEP and to update
>> governance PEPs? November 15 (Anywhere-on-Earth)?
> 
> It seems like today is last day to update the 80xx PEPs (8 PEPs: 8001
> and 8010..8016). Hurry up if you want to push a last minute change :-)
> (Obvious, it's ok if your PEP doesn't need changes anymore ;-))
> 
> --
> 
> Again, I share the link to my comparison of the 7 governance PEPs:
> 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/comparison-of-the-7-governance-peps/392
> 
> Please update it (any core dev can modify the first message, it's a
> wiki!) if my comparison is inaccurate/out of date. Or add a comment if
> you are not sure.
> 
> Obviously, only PEPs should be used to take your decision (vote). My
> comparison only exists to have a quick overview, but I expect that you
> all will ready all PEPs, right? :-D
> 
> Victor
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> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 15 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

[M.-A. Lemburg]

FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
(only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
I subscribed).

Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/


On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
> 
> Victor
> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>>
>> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>>>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>>>> core developers?
>>>
>>> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
>>> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
>>> core developers and non-core developers?
>>
>> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
>> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
>> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
>> forum.
>>
>> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
>> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>>
>> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
>> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
>> these just to keep up with everything.
>>
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 09.10.2018 05:33, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 9 Oct 2018, at 03:29, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
>> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
>> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
>> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
>> I subscribed).
>>
>> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
> 
> I turned on mailing list mode and appear to get mail for new topics as well. 

I have this turned on as well, but don't get those emails.

Perhaps there's some other setting I'm missing.

Thanks.

>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>>
>> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>>>>>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>>>>>> core developers?
>>>>>
>>>>> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
>>>>> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
>>>>> core developers and non-core developers?
>>>>
>>>> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
>>>> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
>>>> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
>>>> forum.
>>>>
>>>> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
>>>> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>>>>
>>>> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
>>>> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
>>>> these just to keep up with everything.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>> eGenix.com
>>>>
>>>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>>>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>>>
>>>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> python-committers mailing list
>>>> python-committers@python.org
>>>&

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 09.10.2018 08:24, Donald Stufft wrote:
> On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level 
> for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either 
> “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or 
> “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* 
> the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after 
> that.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

>> On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
>> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
>> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
>> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
>> I subscribed).
>>
>> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>>
>> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>>>>>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>>>>>> core developers?
>>>>>
>>>>> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
>>>>> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
>>>>> core developers and non-core developers?
>>>>
>>>> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
>>>> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
>>>> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
>>>> forum.
>>>>
>>>> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
>>>> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>>>>
>>>> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
>>>> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
>>>> these just to keep up with everything.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>> eGenix.com
>>>>
>>>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>>>>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>>>
>>>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>&

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
> 
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for 
> anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core 
> developers and non-core developers?

I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
forum.

I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?

If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
these just to keep up with everything.

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 29.09.2018 11:40, Łukasz Langa wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>>
>> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily 
>> impact the future of python-dev.
> 
> Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us 
> decide to move fast on this.
> 
> Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate 
> moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite 
> thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees 
> of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
> 
> Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL 
> stepping down.

Hold on. The group of core developers is rather limited in size.
I would understand such a move for e.g. python-ideas, but much less
so for the committers list.

I'm not opposed to trying Discourse, but don't think the timing is
good to fork off discussions to yet another medium. This creates
more noise than necessary and diverts discussions away from what
we should really be concerned about, namely our model of decision
making for PEP discussions which don't come out with a clear
direction and a model of how to steer the overarching direction of
where Python will go in the coming decades.

>> arbitrary decision making
> ...
>> insufficiently representative group
> ...
>> without involving most of the people affected
> ...
> 
> Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 
> 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on 
> the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing 
> lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was 
> sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.

Ouch. So those 20 core devs got to decide for whoever else considers
themselves a core developer and at the same time fixed the very
definition of who is allowed to vote and who is not without asking
the complete set of core developers ?

The reality is that we're a remote working group, so while in person
meetings are nice and can seed new ideas, we do have to take into
account that people not present at those meetings do have a stake
in Python as core developers as well.

> I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, 
> some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But 
> if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was 
> feasible regardless of the forum.

I don't think we're discussing unanimity here, but democratic
basics, i.e. who has a stake in Python, who will be heard in
discussions and who has voting rights.

On the
https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55
posting, you summarize a discussion we've
had here on the ML, but leave out parts such as the emeritus
discussion (which AFAIR concluded in making this based on whether
a core dev wants to switch to that role rather than making this
based on PRs and Github activity), it also makes it look like
we agreed on just giving "active" core devs voting rights in the
governance discussions, which is not the case.

This is a typical situation you run into with forum postings.
The top posting often receives more attention and is seen as
summary of the whole discussion. Unless the top poster updates
the posting to reflect the outcome of the discussion below,
this can easily to misinterpretations.

In email discussions, such summaries are created after the
discussions (eg. as PEP), which avoids such misinterpretations.

To avoid the same on Discourse, we'd need to have a common
understanding to keep the top posting updated to where the
discussion is going.

Regarding the topic of voting rights: Since we have never
really had to vote on anything, the only democratic approach
is to give everyone listed as core developer voting rights.

Limiting this to an arbitrary definition of "active" is not
democratic, since the definition of "active" represents a
way to introduce representations, which we can, of course,
have, but only after having elected those representatives.

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Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 21.09.2018 14:59, Paul Moore wrote:
> Balance, forgiveness, and a mature level of empathy are what's
> *really* needed ("among the things that are needed...":-)). Not
> policies. Policies should be weapons of last resort.

Agreed.

I guess we'll also have to learn that flamebait as we had it in the
old days is now often launched as cocbait.

It'll take some time to get used to this, but we'll have to try
not to fall for it.

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Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Could the authors of those PEPs please at least publish a rough
outline of what their model is all about ?

It doesn't help if we set a deadline only to find that we should
have written up a competing PEP shortly before the deadline
passes.

The only text we have at this point is PEP 8013:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/



On 26.09.2018 10:16, Carol Willing wrote:
> I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's 
> important for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter 
> 2019 with a governance plan.
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
>>> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
>>> Governance PEPs.
>>>
>>> Some still relevant links:
>>>
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
>>> Proposal Overview
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
>>>
>>> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
>>>
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
>>> (I'm claiming this PEP)
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
>>> Governance Model
>>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
>>>
>>> I have some questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
>>> governance PEPs?
>>
>> As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] [PEP 8013] The External Council Governance Model

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Thanks, Steve, for writing this up:

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/

A couple of comments:

I like the council model, but don't understand why the core developers
should be stripped from any decision powers.

External people will not have the institutional knowledge core
developers have, know why past decisions were reached and thus
cannot use this knowledge to base the new decisions on.

To give you an example:

As much as I admire people such as Larry Wall for designing popular
programming languages, I would not want to see Python take a Perl'ish
approach to language design.

Additionally, we'd have to transfer knowledge of how work is done
on the council for every new member. I've seen how long this takes
on the PSF and EPS boards. It effectively causes the council to
not be fully operable for a couple of months at least.

This will not happen with core developers as council members.

Could you give a reason why the council members should be
external ?

Another point I don't understand is why we should drop the BDFL-
Delegate system. This has proven to work well.

Perhaps PEP 8011 is a better approach, but it's not available
yet, so I'm focusing on your PEP for now.

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Re: [python-committers] Council / board (Was: 1 week to Oct 1)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 25.09.2018 16:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> My proposal is taking into consideration The PSF's mission and diversity
> statement. I will not remove the diversity clause from PEP 8011.

I cannot comment on what you actually have in PEP 8011 as
diversity clause, since the page is just a placeholder at the
moment, but please take into consideration that we're *not* debating a
council which is to represent the Python community or other group of
people.

The council is intended to be a technical body for steering language
design and needs experts as members who we all trust and respect
to make good decisions - regardless of any other criteria and,
of course, open to all core developers, regardless of background
(which is what the PSF diversity statement is all about).

> To save us all trouble of discussing this particular issue, for those of
> you who disagree completely, and have other ideas about how you'd like
> Python to be governed and who should be in it, you can do one or more of
> the following:
> 
> - not vote on my PEP
> - vote on the other PEPs
> - write their own PEP

I think we're grown up enough to work on these PEPs together and
in the usual spirit of coming up with good solutions. We owe
this to the Python community at large who will be affected by
whatever we decide. Personal agendas should put be aside for
the time being.

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Re: [python-committers] Votes on new core dev candidates

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 25.03.2019 23:58, Steve Dower wrote:
> On 25Mar2019 1503, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> On 25.03.2019 16:20, Steve Dower wrote:
>>> To be clear, my pushback (on Discourse, since I can only send email from
>>> an actual laptop these days but can participate over there from my
>>> phone) has been against vague nominations, not the individuals
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> I'm *very* concerned about the perception of commit rights being
>>> "awarded" rather than being a added responsibility specific to CPython.
>>
>> I'm not sure where you got that perception from. The two candidates
>> both want to actively contribute to Python.
>>
>> It's possible that the nominations did not emphasize this enough, but
>> that's an issue with the nomination text, not with the person being
>> nominated.
> 
> That's literally what I said.

Great, so we're on the same page.

>> Yet, the public perception of the discussion is that the persons are
>> not qualified enough and that's definitely not going to have a
>> productive effect on getting more people helping.
> 
> I don't know where you got *this* from. I haven't seen any criticism of
> the candidates themselves - just questions that ought to have been
> answered very easily in the nomination (and were answered almost
> immediately upon request).

I'm reading both this list and discourse (in mailing list mode).
Perhaps those comments were mostly on the ML.

>>> Isn't this what's been happening? It certainly has been on Discourse.
>>
>> Not really. I'm not talking about some moderator having to step
>> in to take action. I'm talking about the nominators actively
>> supporting the discussion by fixing mistakes in the nomination,
>> proxying and adding more information (since the candidates cannot
>> speak for themselves) and helping to clarify misconceptions.
> 
> Um, that's exactly what happened? I don't understand why you're saying
> it didn't (unless someone's edited the history over there between me
> reading it and you reading it).

The post for Stéphane on discourse still reads the same as the original
posting on discourse and this ML. The last edit was on March 22.

>> Asking people who have voted -1 or +1 to publicly tell the world why
>> they did so is not helpful in this respect, since it just creates bias.
>> What people, who are unsure how to vote, really need, is more
>> information, not bias.
> 
> This is illogical. Knowing how and why certain people voted is useful
> information when you know that person (and it's also why we generally
> use options like -1, -0, +0, +1, and sometimes +/-100 ;) ). Without this
> added information, the *only* thing we have is bias, and I don't think
> we have a big enough group to average out individual bias in such
> important decisions as this.

I guess we have a different understanding of bias, then :-)

I prefer to base my votes and opinions on available information
much more than other people's votes and opinions. Using their
votes to cover up for lack of information does not make me
feel comfortable, so I try to get more information or abstain.

In the current case, I do know both candidates well enough
to give them my vote.

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Re: [python-committers] Vote to promote Stéphane Wirtel as a core dev

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 26.03.2019 05:20, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> 
>> On Mar 22, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>
>> Julien Palard and me (Victor) propose to promote Stéphane Wirtel as
>> core developer. We open a vote until March 31 (~one week). "[A
>> promotion] is granted by receiving at least two-thirds positive votes
>> in a core team vote and no veto by the steering council."
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/#the-core-team
> 
> For some reason, I can't vote on discourse. The message is "you can vote 
> because you can't post in this topic."  So please add this post to the tally.
> 
> On the plus side, I've enjoyed working with Stéphane Wirtel and think he is a 
> great person and Python enthusiast. That said, I think we should wait.  The 
> contributions thus far have been very light weight. Also, I've not seen 
> active, critical decision making on the bug tracker that would demonstrate an 
> understanding of what to approve and what not to approve.

Doesn't a good core dev have to have two main characteristics:
1. be passionate about Python and 2. be knowledgeable in a
field of expertise ?

Decision making is something you grow into with experience and
you first have to get a feel for the group you're making decisions
for. I don't believe we should make this a number one criterion
for voting someone in.

> Nominating someone too early puts us all in an awkward position. It's no fun 
> to vote with a -1.  If the nomination has been allowed to mature, this could 
> be a more positive experience for everyone.  We shouldn't have just one 
> person spewing out nominations and doing it prematurely (imo). We had that 
> situation happen in the PSF and it quickly degraded as people started 
> nominating their friends some of whom had only light associations with 
> Python. In the end, that situation necessitated a reorg to where the new 
> standard was zero.  We already have a number of core-devs who are core devs 
> in name only, having never made a commit or actively participated in 
> developing the core.

Sorry, Raymond, but the above comment on the PSF isn't quite accurate.
At the time when the PSF was invite only, we tried very hard to grow
the organization and luckily reached a point where we no longer had
the much too comfortable situation of everyone knowing everyone else.

It's just natural that people then had to start voting in people
based on nomination text only knowledge. While I know that there were
many discussions around this at the time (much like we have now
on this list), the reorg did not come out of frustration about
the way we dealt with the nominations, but instead out of the
desire to be an open organization, rather than an elite club.

Now, the situation with the core devs is a bit different, since
we are actively working together on a project and people put a lot
of trust into us. The bar definitely is higher and we cannot
simply allow anyone to join.

I agree with your point about letting nominations mature, but
I'm also concerned about the lack of active core devs and the
push back the two nominations are getting. Here we have two
very candidates who are very passionate about Python and would
like to help, yet we have nothing better to do than to criticize
their readiness.

We do have to make up our minds: either we do want this group to
grow or we don't. If we do, we should probably come up with more
structure for nomination texts to make existing group members
feel more comfortable about voting someone in based on those,
instead of relying on other group members votes and only
amplifying them.

> Socially, there are two other concerns. One concern is unevenness -- the bar 
> was very high for some people and very low for others. It really seems to 
> matter who nominated you and who your friends are.  The other concern is 
> formation of cliques of friends who approve each other's proposals, but 
> falling into groupthink because of light experience and low diversity of 
> ideas.

Yes, there is a risk and yes, some core devs got in easier than
others (think of the need for speed sprint participants), but
I think all this is manageable.

I don't think that vote amplification is the right way, though,
for much the same reasons you state above, hence my push back
against that strategy.

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Re: [python-committers] Votes on new core dev candidates

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I must say, I'm a bit surprised by the discussion around the voting
process and the candidates.

First, we've been complaining about lack of core devs for a long
time. Now we have two great candidates with proven track record of
contributing to Python and people complain again. As a small group,
we need to attract more capable people and such push back
is not a very productive way of doing so.

Second, as in any vote, no one should feel pushed to comment or
even argue for his or her opinion on a candidate. People nominating
a candidate are the ones who need to write this up, but not the
other group members. A vote to accept someone to a group is a
personal opinion and should be respected as such.

If people feel they need more guidance, they should ask the ones
who nominated the candidates - in public or in private. Because the
candidates themselves cannot comment (at least not on this list;
don't know about discourse), such discussions have to be
moderated by the nominating parties with care.

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Re: [python-committers] Vote to promote Stéphane Wirtel as a core dev

[M.-A. Lemburg]

+1 (not exactly sure how the vote would work, so at this point just
an indication of support)

On 22.03.2019 16:40, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Oh. I forgot to mention that I offer to mentor Stéphane once he would
> become a core dev for 1 month for help him to deal with his new
> responsibilities. I would require him to ask me before merging any PR
> during the mentoring.
> 
> Victor
> 
> Le ven. 22 mars 2019 à 16:34, Victor Stinner  a écrit :
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Julien Palard and me (Victor) propose to promote Stéphane Wirtel as
>> core developer. We open a vote until March 31 (~one week). "[A
>> promotion] is granted by receiving at least two-thirds positive votes
>> in a core team vote and no veto by the steering council."
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/#the-core-team
>>
>> Some of you already met him at Pycon US or EuroPython.
>>
>> Stéphane is contributing to Python since 2014. He fixed bugs in
>> various parts of the code, but also implemented some nice
>> features:
>>
>> * -d option of "python3 -m http.server -d DIRECTORY"
>>to serve a specific directory using Python builtin HTTP Server
>> * --fast and --best options on gzip CLI: "python3 -m gzip [options] file"
>>
>> (Julien told me that he frequently uses "python3 -m http.server -d
>> DIRECTORY" to read the Python documentation :-))
>>
>> In my experience, Stéphane *likes* getting review and is fine to make
>> any change on his code. It's not an issue to work with him, it's more
>> the opposite :-) For example, it doesn't get mad if one of his PR is
>> rejected ;-) (I'm saying that because *I* sometimes get mad about
>> that, sorry for being emotional :-))
>>
>> He got 57 commits merged into the master branch of Python: authored 46
>> commits + co-authored 1 commit + 10 commits before Git ("Patch written
>> by Stéphane Wirtel").
>>
>> He organized a Python conference at FOSDEM 5 times in a row (between
>> 80 and 800 persons per year) and got a PSF Community Service Awards in
>> June 2016 for that: "Stéphane Wirtel for his work organizing a Python
>> User Group in Belgium, for his continued work creating marketing
>> material for the PSF, for his continued outreach efforts with
>> spreading the PSF's mission."
>> https://www.python.org/community/awards/psf-awards/#june-2016
>>
>> He is also helping to organize EuroPython, by working on the website
>> or being a volunteer on-site.
>>
>> He gave a lot of Python talks all around the world at many Pycon
>> (France, EuroPython, Canda, Italy, Ireland, UK, San Sebastiàn,
>> Slovakia, Ukraine) and at FOSDEM (Belgium). For example, he gave talks
>> about Python internals (bytecode, parser), and on Python development
>> workflow and Pull Requests.
>>
>> He is always volunteer to help the Python project, not only the code.
>> For example, he is a committer on the developer guide (devguide).
>>
>> He is helping other contributors get their bugs fixed or to get their
>> changes merged. He participated to not less than 218 PR: ping the
>> right core dev who can review/help, test manually to validate and
>> provide good feedback, propose enhancements, etc. Sometimes, he just
>> says "Thank you for your contribution" which is IMHO a good practice
>> for a healthy community :-) (we don't do that often enough!)
>>
>> Stéphane is involved in Python for 5 years. To be honest, he should
>> have been promoted earlier, but I (Victor) wasn't sure to promote him
>> myself because I know him too well, and so I wasn't objective about
>> his work. But well, now it's time, and Julien is supporting his
>> promotion as well ;-)
>>
>> Links:
>>
>> * https://wirtel.be/
>> * https://twitter.com/matrixise
>>
>> Julien and Victor
> 
> 
> 

-- 
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[python-committers] Fwd: EPS: Announcing the Guido van Rossum Core Developer Grant

[M.-A. Lemburg]

FYI... perhaps you now understand why I was keen to get the committers
listed somewhere :-)


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: EPS: Announcing the Guido van Rossum Core Developer Grant
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 10:25:52 +0100
From: M.-A. Lemburg 
Organization: EuroPython Society (EPS)
To: EuroPython Announcement List 

At the last General Assembly of the EuroPython Society (EPS) at
EuroPython 2018 in Edinburgh, we voted on a new grant program we want
to put in place for future EuroPython conferences.

We all love Python and this is one of the main reasons we are putting
on EuroPython year after year, serving the "cast of thousands" which
support Python. But we also believe it is important to give something
back to the main team of developers who have contributed lots of their
time and energy to make Python happen: the Python Core Developers.

This group is small, works countless hours, often in their free time
and often close to burnout due to not enough new core developers
joining the team.

Free Tickets for Python Core Developers
---

To help with growing the team, putting it more into the spotlight and
give them a place to meet, demonstrate their work and a stage to
invite new developers, we decided to give Python Core Developers free
entry to future EuroPython conferences, starting with EuroPython 2019
in Basel, Switzerland

In recognition of Guido’s almost 20 years of leading this team, and
with his permission, we have named the grant “Guido van Rossum Core
Developer Grant”.

Details of the grant program are available on our core grant page:

https://www.europython-society.org/core-grant

PS: If you are a core developer and want to organize a workshop,
language summit or similar event at EuroPython 2019, please get in
touch with our program workgroup (prog...@europython.eu) soon, so that
we can arrange rooms, slots, etc.

PPS: If you want to become a core developer, please have a look at the
Python Dev Guide:

https://devguide.python.org/coredev/



Help spread the word


Please help us spread this message by sharing it on your social
networks as widely as possible. Thank you !

Link to the blog post:

https://www.europython-society.org/post/182445627020/announcing-the-guido-van-rossum-core-developer

Tweet:

https://twitter.com/europythons/status/1090901995635073024


Enjoy,
--
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https://ep2019.europython.eu/
https://www.europython-society.org/
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Re: [python-committers] Fwd: EPS: Announcing the Guido van Rossum Core Developer Grant

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Happy to see that you like the idea. Our hope is that more conferences
will pick it up as well.


On 31.01.2019 18:41, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2019, at 2:15 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> To help with growing the team, putting it more into the spotlight and
>> give them a place to meet, demonstrate their work and a stage to
>> invite new developers, we decided to give Python Core Developers free
>> entry to future EuroPython conferences, starting with EuroPython 2019
>> in Basel, Switzerland
> 
> Thank for this.
> 
> The cumulative cost of attending conferences has been high.

-- 
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http://www.europython-society.org/
http://www.malemburg.com/
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[python-committers] Learning from PostgreSQL community: How to address the review bottleneck

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I've attended FOSDEM over the weekend, where Jon Conway (one of the
PostgreSQL committers) gave a talk about, among other things, the
PG community and how it is structured:

https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/postgresql11/
(the community part starts at around 8 min into the video)

What struck me as interesting is that they have seen and addressed
the review bottleneck problem we're having in Python development
years ago.

They have a core team, which pretty much resembles the steering
committee we've just voted on, with 5 members, and a group of
28 committers. Things are much less formalized than in Python
land, but they are making great progress.

Here's their approach to solve the review bottleneck:

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_8.4_Development_Plan
(they started this in 2008)

with what they call "commit fests". This is a process where people
submit patches using timed slots, each author is requested to do
at least one review of another patch of similar complexity and
the authors can fix their patches as part of the review process
to get them to a level where a core dev can than take a look.
Other people can sign up as reviewers as well.

That way the initial load of making sure the patch quality is
appropriate is scaled up a lot and their core devs only have to
deal with patches which already have passed reviews by a few
people.

The process is described in more detail in this blog post:

https://blog.2ndquadrant.com/managing-a-postgresql-commitfest/
(with the experience after doing this for 8 years)

To help them with the commit fests, they have a system in place
to manage the patches:

https://commitfest.postgresql.org/

See e.g. https://commitfest.postgresql.org/22/ for the next
upcoming commit fest.

Commit fests are done for one month each, and then leave one
month for things to settle in, get core dev responses. Patches
can be pushed back to the next commit fest in case a core dev
finds them lacking or the author doesn't respond in time.

I also talked to Magnus Hagander, one of the PG core team members,
about their core team.  They have had this since the early 2000s
and interestingly, they are mostly dealing with non-developer
questions. Their approach to decisions such as the PEP process
we have is mostly based on consensus and trust among the committers,
not formalized and thus the core team does not play into this
a lot.

https://www.postgresql.eu/events/pgdayparis2018/schedule/speaker/1-magnus-hagander/

Now, all that said, while there are many similarities between
PostgreSQL and Python in how the communities work, PG does take
a more conservative approach to things - most committers and
core team members have had that status for at least 10 years,
it typically takes several years to gain committer status and
they rarely take on new people.

Still, I think there's a lot we can learn from them and their
experience with solving the review problem.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Feb 04 2019)
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Re: [python-committers] Promote Mark Sapiro and Abhilash Raj as core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I think Mark and Abhilash would be the perfect choice to (help) maintain
the email package.

They have done a great job on making sure Mailman
works for us and know from real world experience what the issues
are you face nowadays with email (such as having to deal with the
wonderful technology called DMARC...).

On 14.05.2019 09:46, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Le 14/05/2019 à 01:19, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
>>
>> I think these two make sense as email module maintainers from a
>> demonstrated domain expertise point of view.
>>
>> But you'll probably have an easier time convincing others who want to
>> see some PRs first if you just go ahead and have them do some work on
>> the email module in the form of PRs to start with.  ie: Don't let being
>> dubbed core developers or not yet block you from starting to mentor them
>> on initial email module maintenance.
> 
> Right, that sounds like the best course of action.  Barry, if you trust
> Mark's and Abhilash's competence, it should probably be easy for you to
> merge their first PRs (and guide them along the way).

-- 
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eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, May 14 2019)
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Re: [python-committers] [Python-Dev] Farewell, Python 3.4

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Thank you for having been 3.4 release manager, Larry !

On 08.05.2019 17:36, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
> It's with a note of sadness that I announce the final retirement of
> Python 3.4.  The final release was back in March, but I didn't get
> around to actually closing and deleting the 3.4 branch until this morning.
> 
> Python 3.4 introduced many features we all enjoy in modern Python--the
> asyncio, ensurepip, and enum packages, just to name three.  It's a
> release I hope we all remember fondly.
> 
> My eternal thanks to all the members of the release team that worked on
> Python 3.4:
> 
> Georg Brandl
> 
> Julien Palard
> 
> Martin von Löwis
> 
> Ned Deily
> 
> Steve Dower
> 
> Terry Reedy
> 
> and all the engineers of the Python infrastructure team.
> 
> Special thanks to Benjamin Peterson and Ned Deily, who frequently
> scurried around behind the scenes cleaning up the messes I cluelessly
> left in my wake.
> 
> Having closed 3.4, I am now retired as Python 3.4 Release Manager.  I
> regret to inform all of you that you're still stuck with me as Python
> 3.5 Release Manager until sometime next year.
> 
> 
> My very best wishes,
> 
> 
> //arry/
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 

-- 
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eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, May 08 2019)
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[python-committers] Re: proposed canonical list of Python core team members

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Note that details about commits predating opening up the
repository for external commits which happened sometime in
2000 IIRC are not necessarily correct.

Before opening up the repo, patches were submitted to the repo
via the team around Guido. This Misc/ACKS file was used in those
times to give credit.

Also: While the number of changes may be an indicator for
how active someone is in terms of using the VCS, it's not a good
indicator of the quality of the work being checked in.


On 12.07.2019 21:19, Brett Cannon wrote:
> Since the thread on potential criteria to be kept on the canonical list
> of core developers has seemingly stopped and no one explicitly objected
> to the proposed criteria, I gathered together the proposed list of
> Python core team members (as well as the people who would be left off an
> why). Please note that since I am working from the git log on the
> cpython repository and the developer log the data is best-effort, thus
> if you have information to add, please let all of us know! Also remember
> this is for the _canonical_ list, not the _active_ list (I plan to start
> working on that list after all of this is settled).
> 
> In the text below, "change" means "committed or authored" in git parlance.
> 
> Details in the form of e.g. "1990-08-09 to 2019-06-11 (11,210)"
> represent the date of the person's first change, the date of their last
> change, and the total number of changes made by that person.
> 
> I have written this to format appropriate in Markdown, so if you view it
> on Hyperkitty/Mailman3 then it will render appropriately (the link
> should be in the email footer Mailman adds).
> 
> 
> # Proposed people to drop from the historical list of Python core team
> members
> 
> Be aware that some people show up on multiple lists justifying removal.
> I thought it was more informative to keep the people in all lists they
> are in for a more informed decision.
> 
> The lists are also not in any particular order. The enumeration is there
> just to point out the total count.
> 
> Also note that I preemptively pulled people out of lists where I made a
> judgmental call that their participation was high enough to not warrant
> potentially be left out of the core team. Obviously if people disagree
> then please speak up.
> 
> And as a reminder, the developer log as to why someone was given
> privileges (if it was written down) is at
> https://devguide.python.org/developers/.
> 
> ## People who are in the developer log but have never made a change
> 
> 1. Santoso Wijaya: 2014-10-29 for Jython
> 2. Stefan Richthofer: 2014-10-27 for Jython
> 3. Darjus Loktevic: 2014-07-26 for Jython
> 4. Chris Angelico: 2014-12-01 for PEP editing
> 5. Maciej Szulik: 2016-12-23 for bugs.python.org 
> 6. Jeff Allen: 2012-06-13 for Jython
> 7. Carl Friedrich Bolz: 2011-03-21 for PyPy compatibility
> 8. Elson Rodriguez: 2011-03-16 for packaging module
> 9. Kelsey Hightower: 2011-03-16 for packaging module
> 10. Michael Mulich: 2011-03-16 for packaging module
> 11. Walker Hale: 2011-03-16 for packaging module
> 12. Jeff Hardy: 2011-03-14 for IronPython compatibility
> 13. Maciej Fijalkowski: 2011-03-13 for PyPy compatibility
> 14. George Boutsioukis: 2010-08-10 for 2to3
> 15. Paul Kippes: PyCon 2009 for 3to2
> 16. Ron Duplain: PyCon 2009 for 3to2
> 17. Allison Randal: 2009 for Parrot compatibility
> 18. Jim Baker: 2009 for Jython compatibility
> 19. Gregor Lingl: 2008-06-10 for turtle module
> 20. Rodrigo Bernardo Pimentel: 2008-04-29 for GSoC
> 21. Heiko Weinen: 2008-04-29 for GSoC
> 22. Thomas Lee: 2008-04-21 for AST/optimizer-related branches
> 23. Jeff Rush: 2008-03-18 for distutils module
> 24. Chris Monson: 2007-10-20 for editing PEPs
> 25. Pete Shinners: 2007-03-04 for PEP 3101 in a sandbox
> 26. Pat Maupin: 2007-02-28 for PEP 3101 work in a sandbox
> 27. Jackilyn Hoxworth: 2006-05-25 for GSoC
> 28. Mateusz Rukowicz: 2006-05-30 for GSoC
> 29. John Benediktsson: 2006-05-17 for Need for Speed sprint
> 30. Richard Emslie: 2006-05-17 for Need for Speed sprint, relinquished
> 2008-08-04
> 31. Runar Petursson: 2006-05-17 for Need for Speed sprint
> 32. Richard M. Tew: 2006-05-17 for Need for Speed sprint
> 33. Talin: 2006-04-27 for PEP updates
> 34. Gregory K. Johnson: 2005-07-08 for GSoC, relinquished 2005-10-16
> 35. Floris Bruynooghe: 2005-07-08 for GSoC, relinqguished 2005-07-14
> 36. Eric Price: 2003-05-02 for decimal module, relinquished 2005-04-10
> 37. Roy Smith: Relinquished 2008-08-04
> 38. Irmen de Jong: Relinquished 2005-04-10
> 
> ## GSoC students
> 
> If you are aware of someone who should be on this list, please speak up.
> This was pulled from the developer log and my own knowledge.
> 
> 1. Robert Schuppenies: 2008-06-01 to 2009-05-17 (22)
> 2. Rodrigo Bernardo Pimentel: no commits
> 3. Heiko Weinen: no commits
> 4. Matt Fleming: 2006-07-28 to 2006-07-29 (2)
> 5. Jackilyn Hoxworth: no commits
> 6. Mateusz Rukowicz: no commits
> 7. Gregory K Johnson: no commits
> 8. 

[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 10.12.2019 23:57, Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
>> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
>> flag, not depend on commits to the repo.
> 
> All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November,
> before the ballot period started:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/EXT5XHEHPGJQS3LW5UG7SK63C2GJDJ2P/
> 
> The relevant section in PEP 13 is this one:
> 
> ==
> There's no time limit on core team membership. However, in order to
> provide the general public with a reasonable idea of how many people
> maintain Python, core team members who have stopped contributing are
> encouraged to declare themselves as "inactive". Those who haven't made
> any non-trivial contribution in two years may be asked to move
> themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't respond. To
> record and honor their contributions, inactive team members will
> continue to be listed alongside active core team members; and, if they
> later resume contributing, they can switch back to active status at
> will. While someone is in inactive status, though, they lose their
> active privileges like voting or nominating for the steering council,
> and commit access.
> ==
> 
> So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this
> election, but it wasn't explicitly emphasised to the folks that were
> otherwise going to being marked as inactive that this was happening
> (as it had to be inferred from the absence of your name, rather than
> being called out as a list of voters that had been flagged as
> potentially inactive since the last voter roll was generated).

I'm sorry, but I had not expected to be delisted and thus did not
check the voters list.

The email also did not make it clear that there was a change which
could result in such an action. I read it to mean to check the
email address, which in my case, I knew was correct.

I do believe that asking a person to have his or status changed to
inactive requires a bit more personal approach than this.

The PR mentions that the script removed 18 core devs from the list
of active ones. It would certainly have been possible to contact
these directly and asking them if they are ok with that plan
of action:

https://github.com/python/voters/pull/10

Thanks,
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 11.12.2019 20:19, Brett Cannon wrote:
> As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time to 
> email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could vote 
> but didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do note 
> that me lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon 
> themselves to reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking) 
> falling off in this vote or in future votes as all of this information and 
> code is accessible to all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of 
> managing the vote no one is in a place of privilege, just in a place of 
> putting the time in. I personally have already sank days into making this 
> vote work starting months ago via pulling together the historical record and 
> spending all of my precious coding time at the core dev sprints this year 
> writing the code to generate the voter roll, and so sinking even more by 
> managing a personal email to everyone is just too much for me to dedicate on 
> top of everything else.
I can help with that. I use mail merge frequently as part of running
EuroPython. All I need is a CSV file with the names and emails (or
some other format).

As for recording who responded and how, I'd suggest to add flags
to the core dev database, which I can then update and Ernest can
use for the voters roll script.

Thanks,
-- 
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eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 11.12.2019 00:58, Brett Cannon wrote:
> We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with 
> making an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be 
> added to the voter roll even though voting has already started.

Thanks.

> In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing 
> PEP 13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for 
> qualifying to vote.

Rather than editing PEP 13, I'd suggest to reconsider the process
and send out emails asking people directly.

It's easy enough to do using mail merge and avoids situations like
these.

In addition, it gives the process back the human touch, which I
sometimes miss with all these policies in place.

Thanks,
-- 
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eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I had been waiting for the ballot email, but have not received any.

I then checked the voters list and came across this section in the
readme:

"""
According to PEP 13, active membership is defined as "any non-trivial
contribution in two years". As such, the coredev active command will
create a pickle file containing the list of coredev.common.CoreDev
instances of people who have authored or committed to the CPython repo
in the past two years.
"""

as well as

"""
The coredev voters command will take an active membership pickle and
generate a CSV file to act as a voter roll.
"""

Looking at https://github.com/python/voters/blob/master/coredev/active.py
it seems the implementation is not working with a status flag for
each voter, but literally converts core members to inactive
based on just the commit history.

That's not in line with PEP 13 (even though this is quoted in the
readme), which says:

"""
Those who haven't made any non-trivial contribution in two years may be
asked to move themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't
respond.
"""

The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
flag, not depend on commits to the repo.

Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that
core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in
quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed.

Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a
significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their
contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python.

As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.

Thanks,
-- 
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eGenix.com

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On 10.12.2019 20:52, Ewa Jodlowska wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> *This is a reminder that voting will end December 16, 2019 12:00 UTC.*
> 
> If you have not yet voted, please do so soon. Momentarily, Ernest will
> resend all the ballots to those that have not voted yet. If you cannot
> find your ballot, try searching spam for sys...@heliosvoting.org
> .
> 
> If you run into any issues, please email myself (e...@python.org
> ) and Ernest (ern...@python.org
> ).
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Ewa
> 
> 
> 
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[python-committers] Re: PEP 13 and approval voting.

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Hi Thomas,

to get more votes, it may help to start a new thread specifically
for voting and prefixing the subject with "ACTION NEEDED: Please
vote - ".

We're using this approach in several PSF WGs and it's working
better than voting emails deep inside discussion threads.

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Oct 20 2019)
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On 20.10.2019 13:05, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, 16:49 Thomas Wouters,  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 4:45 PM Thomas Wouters  > wrote:
> 
> 
> For those who don't check discourse regularly, I've posted a
> suggested change to PEP 13, switching it to approval
> voting:  
> https://discuss.python.org/t/amendment-to-pep-13-to-allow-approval-voting/2428.
> Discussion should preferably happen on discourse, but I'll
> happily take feedback directly, as well.
> 
> I'll add an official vote to the discourse topic in a few days,
> and it'll run for two weeks, as required by PEP 13.
> 
> 
> I've now added the poll for the official vote. Please
> vote: 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/amendment-to-pep-13-to-allow-approval-voting/2428/12
> 
> 
> 
> Friendly reminder that this vote closes in four days. If you
> haven't already done so, please consider voting. 
> 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/amendment-to-pep-13-to-allow-approval-voting/2428/13
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thomas Wouters mailto:tho...@python.org>>
> 
> Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to
> help me spread!
> 
> 
> 
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[python-committers] Re: Language Summit

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Thanks for sending those references.

On 4/16/2020 2:04 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> Here are the slides for our talk about the new PEG parser:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1N_GaMjrLt1HUicbSwqC6QWGB751qj2RqtEqo_lGI0js/edit?usp=drivesdk
> 
> Pablo
> 
> On Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 12:44 Victor Stinner,  > wrote:
> 
> Antonio Cuni's slides:
> "HPy: a future-proof way of extending Python?"
> 
> https://speakerdeck.com/antocuni/hpy-a-future-proof-way-of-extending-python
> 
> Guido, Pablo: are your slides public? (Guido sent a link but I didn't
> know if it can be shared in public, moreover I lost the link :-))
> 
> Victor
> 
> Le mer. 15 avr. 2020 à 23:33, Gregory P. Smith  > a écrit :
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 6:53 AM Brett Cannon  > wrote:
> >>
> >> joannah nanjekye wrote:
> >> > Hey all,
> >> > Unfortunately this year am too busy and cant even attend the
> language
> >> > summit mostly.
> >>
> >> :( Sorry to hear that.
> >>
> >> > However if I knew the schedule, I could sign up for a session
> or two online.
> >>
> >> Schedule can be found at
> https://us.pycon.org/2020/events/languagesummit/.
> >>
> >> > Are we going to have recordings of the sessions this year given
> its a zoom?
> >>
> >> I personally don't know, but my guess is no for privacy reasons.
> But Jesse will be attending to write up a blog post about what occurs.
> >>
> >> -Brett
> >
> >
> > FWIW, I found it surprising to learn that there even was an online
> language summit happening (yesterday).  I hadn't heard about that
> being planned at all.
> >
> > Just because I said "no" to attending the physical one sometime in
> ~January doesn't mean I would've had the same response to joining an
> online one.
> >
> > But I decided to dismiss this as "whatever" rather than a diss.  I
> realize coordinating these things takes work and limiting attendance
> only to those who signed up for the physical one was probably
> easiest to transition the existing plans to.
> >
> > I am reliant on summaries and anyone attending posting details. 
> Everyone please share your slides if you have any that are
> meaningful without a talk to go with them. At least to this
> committers list or discourse forum.  I expect I feel just like all
> of our non-travel-enabled colleagues who feel left out on a
> recurring basis.  =)
> >
> > Happy summiting!
> > -gps
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > A chance to catch up later.
> >> > Best,
> >> > Joannah Nanjekye
> >> > "You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can
> write, even
> >> > more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."
> Alan J. Perlis
> >> ___
> >> python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
> 
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to
> python-committers-le...@python.org
> 
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
> >> Message archived at
> 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/TQ67ZFA6FCQNXZMRZDY27PYYDMQJRD3Q/
> >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 14.10.2020 16:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le 14/10/2020 à 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado a écrit :
>> Hi!
>>
>> I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and now
>> they include 3.9. There are
>> some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some benchmarks
>> are substantially slower, pointing
>> at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In
>> particular some tests like "unpack sequence" are
>> almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, is
>> not fair to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
>> this is something we should look into in my opinion.
>>
>> You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
>>
>> * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
>> * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo
>> latest in branch '3.8'"
>> * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a "Normalization"
>> to the 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>>    and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
> Those numbers tell me that it's a wash.  I wouldn't worry about a small
> regression on a micro- or mini-benchmark while the overall picture is
> stable.

Well, there's a trend here:



Those two benchmarks were somewhat faster in Py3.7 and got slower in 3.8 and
then again in 3.9, so this is more than just an artifact.

-- 
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eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 15.10.2020 15:50, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Le mer. 14 oct. 2020 à 17:59, Antoine Pitrou  a écrit :
>> unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark. (...)
> 
> I suggest removing it.
> 
> I removed other similar micro-benchmarks from pyperformance in the
> past, since they can easily be misunderstood and misleading. For
> curious people, I'm keeping a collection of Python micro-benchmarks
> at:
> https://github.com/vstinner/pymicrobench

As mentioned, those micro benchmark are more helpful in identifying
performance regressions than macro benchmarks, esp. when you find that
a macro benchmark is showing issues.

When you find that a macro benchmark isn't performing well anymore,
it's very difficult understanding the cause and micro benchmarks
help identify the reasons.

So instead of removing them, I'd suggest to add them back to
the suite or have them run in a separate suite, specifically
called "micro benchmarks" to address you concern about people
misinterpreting them.

-- 
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[python-committers] Re: Resignation from Stefan Krah

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 08.10.2020 00:26, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 10/7/20 2:47 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
>> Apparently, Stefan Krah (core developer and author of the C _decimal
>> module) was silently banned or moderated from posting to python.org
>> mailing-lists.
> 
> This seems odd -- does the Steering Council care to comment?

Is it possible that the Mailman 3 or some mail server spam protection
setup has caused this ? In that case, it's better to ask the
postmasters.

-- 
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[python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Hi Pablo,

thanks for pointing this out.

Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?

Going to the timeline, it seems that the system only has data
for Oct 14 (today):

https://speed.python.org/timeline/#/?exe=12=regex_dna=1=1000=off=on=on=none

In addition to unpack_sequence, the regex_dna test has slowed
down a lot compared to Py3.8.

https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_unpack_sequence.py
https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_regex_dna.py

Thanks.

On 14.10.2020 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and now they
> include 3.9. There are
> some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some benchmarks are
> substantially slower, pointing
> at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In particular 
> some
> tests like "unpack sequence" are
> almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, is not 
> fair
> to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
> this is something we should look into in my opinion.
> 
> You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
> 
> * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
> * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo latest
> in branch '3.8'"
> * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a "Normalization" to 
> the
> 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>    and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
> 
> These benchmarks are very stable: I have executed them several times over the
> weekend yielding the same results and,
> more importantly, they are being executed on a server specially prepared to
> running reproducible benchmarks: CPU affinity,
> CPU isolation, CPU pinning for NUMA nodes, CPU frequency is fixed, CPU 
> governor
> set to performance mode, IRQ affinity is
> disabled for the benchmarking CPU nodes...etc so you can trust these numbers.
> 
> I kindly suggest for everyone interested in trying to improve the 3.9 (and
> master) performance, to review these benchmarks
> and try to identify the problems and fix them or to find what changes 
> introduced
> the regressions in the first place. All benchmarks
> are the ones being executed by the pyperformance suite
> (https://github.com/python/pyperformance) so you can execute them
> locally if you need to.
> 
> ---
> 
> On a related note, I am also working on the speed.python.org
>  server to provide more automation and
> ideally some integrations with GitHub to detect performance regressions. For
> now, I have done the following:
> 
> * Recompute benchmarks for all branches using the same version of
> pyperformance (except master) so they can
>    be compared with each other. This can only be seen in the "Comparison"
> tab: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
> * I am setting daily builds of the master branch so we can detect performance
> regressions with daily granularity. These
>    daily builds will be located in the "Changes" and "Timeline" tabs
> (https://speed.python.org/timeline/).
> * Once the daily builds are working as expected, I plan to work on trying to
> automatically comment or PRs or on bpo if
> we detect that a commit has introduced some notable performance regression.
> 
> Regards from sunny London,
> Pablo Galindo Salgado.
> 
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-- 
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Code of 

[python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 14.10.2020 16:00, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>> Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
> it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
> 
> Unfortunately no. The reasons are that that data was misleading because
> different points were computed with a different version of pyperformance and
> therefore with different packages (and therefore different code). So the 
> points
> could not be compared among themselves.
> 
> Also, past data didn't include 3.9 commits because the data gathering was not
> automated and it didn't run in a long time :(

Make sense.

Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
(e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
introduced the change ?

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 14:57, M.-A. Lemburg  <mailto:m...@egenix.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Pablo,
> 
> thanks for pointing this out.
> 
> Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
> it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
> 
> Going to the timeline, it seems that the system only has data
> for Oct 14 (today):
> 
> 
> https://speed.python.org/timeline/#/?exe=12=regex_dna=1=1000=off=on=on=none
> 
> In addition to unpack_sequence, the regex_dna test has slowed
> down a lot compared to Py3.8.
> 
> 
> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_unpack_sequence.py
> 
> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_regex_dna.py
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> On 14.10.2020 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and 
> now they
> > include 3.9. There are
> > some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some benchmarks 
> are
> > substantially slower, pointing
> > at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In 
> particular
> some
> > tests like "unpack sequence" are
> > almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, is
> not fair
> > to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
> > this is something we should look into in my opinion.
> >
> > You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
> >
> > * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
> > * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo 
> latest
> > in branch '3.8'"
> > * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a "Normalization"
> to the
> > 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
> >    and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
> >
> > These benchmarks are very stable: I have executed them several times 
> over the
> > weekend yielding the same results and,
> > more importantly, they are being executed on a server specially 
> prepared to
> > running reproducible benchmarks: CPU affinity,
> > CPU isolation, CPU pinning for NUMA nodes, CPU frequency is fixed, CPU
> governor
> > set to performance mode, IRQ affinity is
> > disabled for the benchmarking CPU nodes...etc so you can trust these 
> numbers.
> >
> > I kindly suggest for everyone interested in trying to improve the 3.9 
> (and
> > master) performance, to review these benchmarks
> > and try to identify the problems and fix them or to find what changes
> introduced
> > the regressions in the first place. All benchmarks
> > are the ones being executed by the pyperformance suite
> > (https://github.com/python/pyperformance) so you can execute them
> > locally if you need to.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > On a related note, I am also working on the speed.python.org
> <http://speed.python.org>
> > <http://speed.python.org> server to provide more automation and
> > ideally some integrations with GitHub to detect performance 
> regressions. For
> > now, I have done the following:
> >
> > * Recompute benchmarks for all branches using the same version of
> > pyperformance (except master) so they can
> >    be compared with each other. This can only be seen in the 
> "Comparison"
> > tab: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
> > * I am setting daily builds of the master branch so we can detect 
> performance
> > regressions with dai

[python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 14.10.2020 17:59, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Le 14/10/2020 à 17:25, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
>>
>> Well, there's a trend here:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Those two benchmarks were somewhat faster in Py3.7 and got slower in 3.8
>> and then again in 3.9, so this is more than just an artifact.
> 
> unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark.  It's useful if you want to
> investigate the cause of a regression witnessed elsewhere (or if you're
> changing things in precisely that part of the interpreter), but it's not
> relevant in itself to measure Python performance.

Since unpacking is done a lot in Python applications, this particular
micro benchmark does have an effect on overall performance and there
was some recent discussion about exactly this part of the code slowing
down (even though the effects were related to macOS only AFAIR).

As with most micro benchmarks, you typically don't see the effect
of one slowdown or speedup in applications. Only if several such
changes come together, you notice a change.

That said, it's still good practice to keep an eye on such performance
regressions and also to improve upon micro benchmarks.

The latter was my main motiviation for writing pybench back in 1997,
which focuses on such micro benchmarks, rather than higher level
benchmarks, where it's much harder to find out why performance
changed.

> regex-dna is a "mini"-benchmark. I suppose someone could look if there
> were any potentially relevant changes done in the regex engine, that
> would explain the changes.

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[python-committers] Re: Farewell, Python 3.5

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Thank you, Larry and the whole release team, for putting so much
work into this !

On 01.10.2020 19:49, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
> At last!  Python 3.5 has now officially reached its end-of-life.  Since there
> have been no checkins or PRs since I tagged 3.5.10, 3.5.10 will stand as the
> final release in the 3.5 series.
> 
> As with a similar announcement I wrote about eighteen months ago, I know we 
> can
> all look back fondly on Python 3.5.  3.5 added many new asynchronous I/O
> programming features, the "typing" module, and even a new operator ("@").  
> Plus
> many and varied quality-of-life improvements for the Python programmer, in 
> both
> the language, the library, the core implementation, and even the installers. 
> Python 3.5.0 was the best version of the best language at the time, and since
> then it's gotten even better!
> 
> My thanks to all the members of the Python 3.5 release team.  In alphabetical 
> order:
> 
> Georg Brandl
> 
> Julian Palard
> 
> Ned Deily
> 
> Steve Dower
> 
> Terry Reedy
> 
> My thanks also to the Python infrastructure team.
> 
> 
> The end of Python 3.5 support also ends my tenure as a Python Release 
> Manager. 
> Congratulations, you survived me and my frequent mistakes!  (Special shouts 
> out
> to Ned and Benjamin for running around behind the scenes quietly cleaning up 
> my
> messes--and not even telling me most of the time.)  Rest assured that I leave
> you in /much/ better hands with the current crop of RMs: Ned, Łukasz, and 
> Pablo.
> 
> One amusing note.  During my tenure as a Python release manager, I had to deal
> with /three/ different revision control systems.  Although we'd switched 
> CPython
> itself to Mercurial  by the time 3.4 alpha 0 was released, there were still 
> many
> supporting repositories still on Subversion.  (I remember having to do
> Subversion branch merges as part of my 3.4 release work... what a pain.)  And 
> of
> course these days we're on Git (-hub).  This straddling of three different
> workflows certainly complicated the lives of us Release Managers.  So, my
> friends, please... make up your minds!  ;-)
> 
> 
> It's been my honor to serve you,
> 
> 
> //arry/
> 
> p.s. As of today, every supported version of Python supports f-strings.  The
> only remaining excuse for "we can't use f-strings" is no longer viable!
> 
> 
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[python-committers] Guido van Rossum Core Developer Grant & EuroPython

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Dear follow core developers,

I would like to invite you to attend this year's EuroPython conference:

https://ep2020.europython.eu/

The conference will be held online from July 23-26 and we took special
care to add slots which can easily be followed from pretty all around
the world.

The first two days are conference days, with over 110 sessions.
We'll announce the schedule preview in the coming days.

We'll also have sprints on the weekend of July 25-26 where teams
can get together in Jitsi or Zoom rooms and use our Discord server
to chat:

https://ep2020.europython.eu/events/sprints/

This would make a great platform for a CPython sprint or
for a specific CPython project. Joining sprints is free and we already
have quite a few signups, so this would be a great way to find
more potential core developers.

Since you are core developers, joining the conference will be
particularly easy as well. In 2018, the EuroPython Society (EPS)
decided to put up a Guido van Rossum Core Developer Grant, which allows
core developers to get free tickets to all future EuroPython
conferences:

https://www.europython-society.org/core-grant

Would be great to meet some of you at the event.

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Making it easier to track who is currently considered "active" for voting

[M.-A. Lemburg]

FYI: There's a ticket open to address the remaining missing parts of the
process that is defined in PEP 13 vs. the what the voting script
implements:

https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16

I've implemented some extra logic to enable tracking the inactivity
status as per PER 13 and creating a file which can be used for the
notification emails, which are needed to convert a core dev's status
to inactive:

https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25

I'd like to get this merged before the next vote and can also volunteer
to take care of sending out the notification emails, unless the SC
or the voting managers want to do this.

As part of implementing the change, I noticed that even considering
the new "left" field Brett added, we are missing quite a few status
checks from core developers. The next vote should remedy this by
adding the missing fields with the notification status and get us
back on track with respect to PEP 13.

With the extra tooling in place, it would also be worthwhile to consider
defining the notification process for how to use the tool and
documenting it in the README.md.

The above tickets already have some ideas.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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On 20.10.2020 21:16, Brett Cannon wrote:
> With the next SC election fast approaching, I did the final tweaks I wanted to
> make to the voters repo to address visibility issues we had in the last 
> election.
> 
> First, there is now a monthly cron job that will run at
> https://github.com/python/voters/actions?query=workflow%3A%22Projected+Voter+Roll%22
> which will project a Dec 01 vote and then calculate who would fall off the 
> voter
> roll based solely on activity, who would be added, and then the full list of
> voters. What that means is the two year of activity is calculated back from 
> the
> next Dec 01, so you can check to see if you haven't committed or authored code
> in that timeframe to automatically be put on the voter roll.
> 
> Second, I created
> https://github.com/python/voters/actions?query=workflow%3A%22Generate+Voter+Roll%22
> for manually creating the voter roll. This means people can manually trigger 
> the
> same code used to create the initial voter roll and see who would (not) be
> automatically placed on it. I expect this to mostly be used by the folks 
> running
> the election. And I do advise specifying the full date as the input instead of
> using the MM-DD shortcut if you choose today as it will most likely wrap 
> around
> to projecting a vote next year.
> 
> Finally, I updated the data to include when someone left the core team (and if
> someone was ejected, which is a term from PEP 13). For those that never 
> entered
> a GitHub username, I implicitly put them as having left the team the day the
> first PR was merged on GitHub since they stopped being able to participate
> actively from that day forward with an appropriate note as to why 
> (2017-02-10).
> This is now shown in the developer log at 
> https://devguide.python.org/developers/.
> 
> Hopefully this is enough to easily check if one should try to get a quick PR
> committed and/or authored before an election. We can all also try to remember 
> to
> include it in the vote announcement email going forward if anyone forgets.
> 
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[python-committers] Re: MSDN Subscription renewals

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 13.08.2020 21:18, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 11:04 AM Zachary Ware  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 12:29 PM Steve Dower  wrote:
>>> While most of the tooling necessary for working on CPython is freely
>>> available (as Visual Studio Community), this will also include OS images
>>> and Azure credits.
>>
>> For reference, the Azure credit has been enough to me to run a Windows
>> 8.1 buildbot for the past several years at no cost to me.
> 
> Yeah, it's pretty substantial ($150/mo). The subscription also comes
> with multiple free licenses for every version of Windows, which is
> incredibly useful if you have a Mac or Linux system but need to spin
> up a Windows dev VM.

Definitely seconded. I've been running several Windows VMs for testing
using these licenses for several years now.

Many thanks to MS for providing these for free. Now, I only wish
Apple would have something similar for macOS... :-)

Cheers,
-- 
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eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I have now closed the call and added "no response" entries for
these core devs:

 Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
 Armin Ronacher
 Eli Bendersky
 Jack Diederich
 Jeremy Hylton
 Lars Gustäbel
 Martin Panter
 Meador Inge
 PJ Eby
 Philip Jenvey
 Trent Nelson

This is the current output of the voters roll command:

Last voter roll is 
voter-files/2019-12-01-2020-python-steering-council-election.csv

3 people are slated to NOT vote this time (compared to the last vote):
 Skip Montanaro
 Stefan Krah
 Xavier de Gaye

12 people are NEW voters:
 Batuhan Taskaya
 Brandt Bucher
 Chris Jerdonek
 Dong-hee Na
 Georg Brandl
 Hynek Schlawack
 Jack Jansen
 Karthikeyan Singaravelan
 Kyle Stanley
 Lysandros Nikolaou
 Mark Hammond
 Sandro Tosi

0 people will be notified of their pending inactive status:


The vote.csv file lists 91 core devs.

This completes the "Those who haven't made any non-trivial contribution in two
years may be asked to move themselves to this category, and moved there if they
don't respond." part of PEP 13 for this year.

Thanks,
-- 
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On 18.11.2020 16:44, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> I've sent a reminder to these core devs:
> 
>  Alexandre Vassalotti
>  Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>  Armin Ronacher
>  David Wolever
>  Eli Bendersky
>  Jack Diederich
>  Jack Jansen
>  Jeremy Hylton
>  Kurt B. Kaiser
>  Lars Gustäbel
>  Martin Panter
>  Matthias Klose
>  Meador Inge
>  PJ Eby
>  Philip Jenvey
>  Sjoerd Mullender
>  Steven D'Aprano
>  Thomas Heller
>  Trent Nelson
> 
> who have not replied yet.
> 
> The deadline is Nov 25 AoE, when I'll merge the PR with the updates:
> https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> On 11.11.2020 22:00, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
>> these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
>> Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
>> a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
>> voter roll script yet:
>>
>>  Alex Martelli
>>  Alexandre Vassalotti
>>  Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>>  Armin Ronacher
>>  Christian Tismer
>>  David Malcolm
>>  David Wolever
>>  Doug Hellmann
>>  Eli Bendersky
>>  Fred Drake
>>  Georg Brandl
>>  Hynek Schlawack
>>  Jack Diederich
>>  Jack Jansen
>>  Jeremy Hylton
>>  Kurt B. Kaiser
>>  Lars Gustäbel
>>  Marc-André Lemburg
>>  Mark Hammond
>>  Martin Panter
>>  Matthias Klose
>>  Meador Inge
>>  PJ Eby
>>  Petri Lehtinen
>>  Philip Jenvey
>>  Sandro Tosi
>>  Sjoerd Mullender
>>  Steven D'Aprano
>>  Thomas Heller
>>  Tim Golden
>>  Trent Nelson
>>
>> For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
>> https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
>> PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25
>>
>> I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
>> will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
>> in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
>> This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
>> for the election.
>>
>> PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
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>>
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[python-committers] Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
voter roll script yet:

 Alex Martelli
 Alexandre Vassalotti
 Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
 Armin Ronacher
 Christian Tismer
 David Malcolm
 David Wolever
 Doug Hellmann
 Eli Bendersky
 Fred Drake
 Georg Brandl
 Hynek Schlawack
 Jack Diederich
 Jack Jansen
 Jeremy Hylton
 Kurt B. Kaiser
 Lars Gustäbel
 Marc-André Lemburg
 Mark Hammond
 Martin Panter
 Matthias Klose
 Meador Inge
 PJ Eby
 Petri Lehtinen
 Philip Jenvey
 Sandro Tosi
 Sjoerd Mullender
 Steven D'Aprano
 Thomas Heller
 Tim Golden
 Trent Nelson

For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25

I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
for the election.

PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.

Cheers,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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--- Begin Message ---
Dear {{FullName}},

we are about to have the yearly vote on the Python Steering Council
and as part of PEP 13, we have to define the voter roll based on
the active core developers:

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/

PEP 13 suggests that core developers who have not been active in the
last two years may be asked to declare themselves as "inactive".

The script which is used to build the voter roll for the election
uses Github commits to determine whether a core developer was active
or not. You can find the details and code in this private repo:

https://github.com/python/voters

You are receiving this email, because the script has determined
that you have not issued a commit to the CPython repo in the last
two years.

Since we know that this approach is not perfect and there are
other ways a core developer can contribute, we're sending this
email to ask you whether you want to declare yourself inactive
or not.

Updating your status


There are three ways to respond in case you want to not be
declared inactive and lose voting rights.

1. You edit the file python-core.toml in the repo
(https://github.com/python/voters/blob/master/python-core.toml)
and include a line

inactive_reply = "stay active" # last updated 2020-11-xx
or
inactive_reply = "make inactive" # last updated 2020-11-xx

in your [[core-dev]] section, depending on what you'd like to
set as your status.

2. You reply to this email and ask to update the above file to
the desired setting.

3. You don't do anything, which we will then interpret as meaning
that you'd like to be declared inactive.

We will wait two weeks, until Nov 25, to decide how to proceed.
If you don't respond, we will add an entry to the above file
listing the missing reply.

Core developers who declare themselves inactive or don't reply
will not receive a ballot for the upcoming election.

Note that the status can be changed again for future
elections, so things are not set in stone.

Election timeline
-

As a reminder, here's the timeline for this year's election:

* The nomination period will begin Nov 1, 2020
* Nomination period will end Nov 15, 2020
* Voting will begin Dec 1, 2020
* Voting will end Dec 15, 2020

Nominations are collected via https://discuss.python.org/.


Many thanks.

Best Regards,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
http://www.malemburg.com/
--- End Message ---
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[python-committers] Re: Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 11.11.2020 22:04, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I wonder what Marc-André Lemburg is going to respond... :-)

I already did :-)

People who replied with "stay active" will receive an email
as well and the list below is proof that it works as
indented ;-)

> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 1:00 PM M.-A. Lemburg  <mailto:m...@egenix.com>> wrote:
> 
> FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
> these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
> Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
> a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
> voter roll script yet:
> 
>      Alex Martelli
>      Alexandre Vassalotti
>      Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>      Armin Ronacher
>      Christian Tismer
>      David Malcolm
>      David Wolever
>      Doug Hellmann
>      Eli Bendersky
>      Fred Drake
>      Georg Brandl
>      Hynek Schlawack
>      Jack Diederich
>      Jack Jansen
>      Jeremy Hylton
>      Kurt B. Kaiser
>      Lars Gustäbel
>      Marc-André Lemburg
>      Mark Hammond
>      Martin Panter
>      Matthias Klose
>      Meador Inge
>      PJ Eby
>      Petri Lehtinen
>      Philip Jenvey
>      Sandro Tosi
>      Sjoerd Mullender
>      Steven D'Aprano
>      Thomas Heller
>      Tim Golden
>      Trent Nelson
> 
> For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
> https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
> PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25
> 
> I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
> will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
> in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
> This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
> for the election.
> 
> PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 11 2020)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...    https://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Product Development ...        https://consulting.egenix.com/
> 
> 
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
> 
>    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>     D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>            Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>                https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>                      https://www.malemburg.com/
> 
> ___
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> 
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido <http://python.org/~guido>)
> /Pronouns: he/him //(why is my pronoun here?)/
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 11 2020)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
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 https://www.malemburg.com/
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[python-committers] Re: Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 18.11.2020 19:11, Alexandre Vassalotti wrote:
> Hi Marc-Andre,
> 
> I updated my status in the github file directly. Why am I still being listed 
> here?

Probably by mistake. I forgot to merge master into my branch before
running the tool. Sorry.

> -- Alexandre
> 
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 7:44 AM M.-A. Lemburg  <mailto:m...@egenix.com>> wrote:
> 
> I've sent a reminder to these core devs:
> 
>      Alexandre Vassalotti
>      Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>      Armin Ronacher
>      David Wolever
>      Eli Bendersky
>      Jack Diederich
>      Jack Jansen
>      Jeremy Hylton
>      Kurt B. Kaiser
>      Lars Gustäbel
>      Martin Panter
>      Matthias Klose
>      Meador Inge
>      PJ Eby
>      Philip Jenvey
>      Sjoerd Mullender
>      Steven D'Aprano
>      Thomas Heller
>      Trent Nelson
> 
> who have not replied yet.
> 
> The deadline is Nov 25 AoE, when I'll merge the PR with the updates:
> https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> On 11.11.2020 22:00, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> > FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
> > these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
> > Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
> > a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
> > voter roll script yet:
> >
> >      Alex Martelli
> >      Alexandre Vassalotti
> >      Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
> >      Armin Ronacher
> >      Christian Tismer
> >      David Malcolm
> >      David Wolever
> >      Doug Hellmann
> >      Eli Bendersky
> >      Fred Drake
> >      Georg Brandl
> >      Hynek Schlawack
> >      Jack Diederich
> >      Jack Jansen
> >      Jeremy Hylton
> >      Kurt B. Kaiser
> >      Lars Gustäbel
> >      Marc-André Lemburg
> >      Mark Hammond
> >      Martin Panter
> >      Matthias Klose
> >      Meador Inge
> >      PJ Eby
> >      Petri Lehtinen
> >      Philip Jenvey
> >      Sandro Tosi
> >      Sjoerd Mullender
> >      Steven D'Aprano
> >      Thomas Heller
> >      Tim Golden
> >      Trent Nelson
> >
> > For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
> > https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
> > PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25
> >
> > I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
> > will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
> > in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
> > This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
> > for the election.
> >
> > PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > ___
> > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
> <mailto:python-committers@python.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org
> <mailto:python-committers-le...@python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
> > Message archived at
> 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/O3CC7U2ERJLUCJRE7UOE7GIXME5VK3LL/
> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >
> 
> -- 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 18 2020)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...    https://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Product Development ...        https://consulting.egenix.com/
> 
> 
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
> 
>    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>     D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>            Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>                https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>                      https://www.malemburg.com/
> ___
> python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@py

[python-committers] Re: Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

I've sent a reminder to these core devs:

 Alexandre Vassalotti
 Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
 Armin Ronacher
 David Wolever
 Eli Bendersky
 Jack Diederich
 Jack Jansen
 Jeremy Hylton
 Kurt B. Kaiser
 Lars Gustäbel
 Martin Panter
 Matthias Klose
 Meador Inge
 PJ Eby
 Philip Jenvey
 Sjoerd Mullender
 Steven D'Aprano
 Thomas Heller
 Trent Nelson

who have not replied yet.

The deadline is Nov 25 AoE, when I'll merge the PR with the updates:
https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30

Thanks.

On 11.11.2020 22:00, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
> these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
> Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
> a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
> voter roll script yet:
> 
>  Alex Martelli
>  Alexandre Vassalotti
>  Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>  Armin Ronacher
>  Christian Tismer
>  David Malcolm
>  David Wolever
>  Doug Hellmann
>  Eli Bendersky
>  Fred Drake
>  Georg Brandl
>  Hynek Schlawack
>  Jack Diederich
>  Jack Jansen
>  Jeremy Hylton
>  Kurt B. Kaiser
>  Lars Gustäbel
>  Marc-André Lemburg
>  Mark Hammond
>  Martin Panter
>  Matthias Klose
>  Meador Inge
>  PJ Eby
>  Petri Lehtinen
>  Philip Jenvey
>  Sandro Tosi
>  Sjoerd Mullender
>  Steven D'Aprano
>  Thomas Heller
>  Tim Golden
>  Trent Nelson
> 
> For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
> https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
> PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25
> 
> I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
> will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
> in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
> This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
> for the election.
> 
> PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> ___
> python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
> Message archived at 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/O3CC7U2ERJLUCJRE7UOE7GIXME5VK3LL/
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 18 2020)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/
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[python-committers] Re: Python Core Developer Status Inquiry

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 18.11.2020 16:52, Paul Moore wrote:
> I'm pretty sure I saw an email from Steven D'Aprano on this list recently.

Yes, this was a mistake on my part. I forgot to merge master
into my branch before running the script. Sorry.

> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 15:44, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> I've sent a reminder to these core devs:
>>
>>  Alexandre Vassalotti
>>  Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>>  Armin Ronacher
>>  David Wolever
>>  Eli Bendersky
>>  Jack Diederich
>>  Jack Jansen
>>  Jeremy Hylton
>>  Kurt B. Kaiser
>>  Lars Gustäbel
>>  Martin Panter
>>  Matthias Klose
>>  Meador Inge
>>  PJ Eby
>>  Philip Jenvey
>>  Sjoerd Mullender
>>  Steven D'Aprano
>>  Thomas Heller
>>  Trent Nelson
>>
>> who have not replied yet.
>>
>> The deadline is Nov 25 AoE, when I'll merge the PR with the updates:
>> https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On 11.11.2020 22:00, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>> FYI: I have sent out the Python Code Developer status inquiries to
>>> these core developers, which have not committed to the CPython
>>> Github repo in the last two years and for which we don't have
>>> a status answer using the new inactivity reply feature in the
>>> voter roll script yet:
>>>
>>>  Alex Martelli
>>>  Alexandre Vassalotti
>>>  Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
>>>  Armin Ronacher
>>>  Christian Tismer
>>>  David Malcolm
>>>  David Wolever
>>>  Doug Hellmann
>>>  Eli Bendersky
>>>  Fred Drake
>>>  Georg Brandl
>>>  Hynek Schlawack
>>>  Jack Diederich
>>>  Jack Jansen
>>>  Jeremy Hylton
>>>  Kurt B. Kaiser
>>>  Lars Gustäbel
>>>  Marc-André Lemburg
>>>  Mark Hammond
>>>  Martin Panter
>>>  Matthias Klose
>>>  Meador Inge
>>>  PJ Eby
>>>  Petri Lehtinen
>>>  Philip Jenvey
>>>  Sandro Tosi
>>>  Sjoerd Mullender
>>>  Steven D'Aprano
>>>  Thomas Heller
>>>  Tim Golden
>>>  Trent Nelson
>>>
>>> For some more background, please have a look at the ticket
>>> https://github.com/python/voters/issues/16 and the associated
>>> PR https://github.com/python/voters/pull/25
>>>
>>> I used the email addresses from the python-core.toml file and
>>> will collect replies in the next two weeks and collect them
>>> in this PR: https://github.com/python/voters/pull/30
>>> This can then be merged before creating the final voter roll
>>> for the election.
>>>
>>> PS: I attached the mail merge template I used for the emails below.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
>>> Message archived at 
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/O3CC7U2ERJLUCJRE7UOE7GIXME5VK3LL/
>>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Nov 18 2020)
>>>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  https://www.malemburg.com/
>> ___
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>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
>> Message ar

[python-committers] Re: CI tests are broken

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 31.03.2021 16:29, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 3/31/21 6:59 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> 
>> It seems that some of the doc tests are missing imports of
>> e.g. Flag from enum.
> 
> My understanding of doctest is that the global execution environment is
> cumulative.  For example. the three previous tests, which all pass, are also 
> not
> reimporting Flag.

Looking at the doctest.py source code, there appear to be plenty of
ways managing the globals:

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Lib/doctest.py#L872

The globals for each DocTest is formed by combining `globs`
and `extraglobs` (bindings in `extraglobs` override bindings
in `globs`).  A new copy of the globals dictionary is created
for each DocTest.  If `globs` is not specified, then it
defaults to the module's `__dict__`, if specified, or {}
otherwise.  If `extraglobs` is not specified, then it defaults
to {}.

> Also note that the tests pass fine locally, suggesting that this is a CI
> problem. [1]

Perhaps CI is running the tests in a different way than the local
Makefile. E.g. CI could be using the "per DocText glob copy",
while the Makefile uses the module namespace.

I'm only guessing here... never used doctest.

> [1] https://bugs.python.org/issue43681
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 31 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/

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[python-committers] Re: CI tests are broken

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 31.03.2021 15:54, Ethan Furman wrote:
> Because I could not find any error in the documentation that would cause the
> problem (the first three cases succeeded, using the same construct).
> 
>> Why is that even allowed?
> 
> Because the tests are not perfect.
> 
> I did post a message to python-dev to see if anybody had any idea on why that
> particular test was failing, but there were no replies.

It seems that some of the doc tests are missing imports of
e.g. Flag from enum.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 31 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
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   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
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 https://www.malemburg.com/

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[python-committers] Re: Publish better than md5sums of Python builds?

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 17.03.2021 18:53, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021, at 09:29, Victor Stinner wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 9:16 PM Gregory P. Smith  wrote:
>>> The benefit of listing the sha256 for files is that it prevents this 
>>> question coming up again and again because md5 is old and rightfully on the 
>>> "never use" list for many people. Even if there are situations where it is 
>>> fine as an effective improvement over a CRC.
>>
>> Would it be possible to provide multiple hashes, like MD5 *and* SHA256
>> (and maybe also SHA512)? Or is there a practical problem to list
>> multiple hashes on a web page?
> 
> How about zero hashes?

IMO, it would be better to put SHA256SUM files into the download
folder of each release (these could be cron generated to not make
the release process more difficult), e.g.

https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.9.2/

These files would then contain all hashes for all files in a
directory and together with the sha256sum command provide a
nice interface for checking any downloads.

https://linux.die.net/man/1/sha256sum

That said, most of the file formats used for release files
already include checks against file corruption. On the plus
side, you don't have to run e.g. an .exe to find out.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Mar 17 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
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[python-committers] Re: PEP 563 and Python 3.10.

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 21.04.2021 13:14, Paul Moore wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 12:05, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps we should reconsider making deprecation warnings only
>> visible by explicitly enabling them and instead make them visible
>> by default.
>>
>> This would create more noise for users, but for the better, since
>> planned changes then become more visible and can be addressed
>> either by silencing the warning (and opening a ticket to get
>> the change addressed) or by fixing the code in a new release.
> 
> We've tried this in the past, and the problem is that it hits the
> wrong people. Users typically can't do anything directly about the
> warnings, other than report them to the offending packages. So the
> person hit by the warning then has an indefinite wait while the
> upstream package fixes the issue (either fully, or just by temporarily
> suppressing the warning) and releases a new version (which depending
> on the project release cycles and processes, may not be a
> straightforward replacement for the previous version).

Isn't that an educational problem ? Adjusting reporting of
warnings isn't all that hard:

https://docs.python.org/3/library/warnings.html#the-warnings-filter

Perhaps it's just a usability issue. We could have venvs help
us a bit with this by e.g. making such settings "global" per
venv, without the user having to configure PYTHONWARNINGS
or writing a sitecustomize.py for this purpose.

>> If package authors were to get into the habit of doing the
>> silencing for their users after opening a ticket, that would
>> probably make the whole process more streamlined and effective.
> 
> If that was what actually happened, then maybe this would work. But
> unfortunately this is open source, and many projects haven't got the
> resources to make emergency releases to silence a warning for their
> users.

True, but at the same time, we often find that deprecations are
not visible enough by these projects, which then causes a problem
further down the road when the deprecation then gets turned into
a breaking change.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Apr 21 2021)
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[python-committers] Re: PEP 563 and Python 3.10.

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 21.04.2021 12:16, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> The idea that we should warn before significant changes to behaviour --
> documented behaviour, like function annotations being evaluated at definition
> time, or behaviour commonly depended on, like 'with' being allowed as an
> identifier because it wasn't explicitly listed as a keyword -- is not new. 
> It's
> covered by PEP 387: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0387/

Perhaps we should reconsider making deprecation warnings only
visible by explicitly enabling them and instead make them visible
by default.

This would create more noise for users, but for the better, since
planned changes then become more visible and can be addressed
either by silencing the warning (and opening a ticket to get
the change addressed) or by fixing the code in a new release.

If package authors were to get into the habit of doing the
silencing for their users after opening a ticket, that would
probably make the whole process more streamlined and effective.

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eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: PEP 563 and Python 3.10.

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 21.04.2021 13:35, Paul Moore wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 12:24, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that an educational problem ? Adjusting reporting of
>> warnings isn't all that hard:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/library/warnings.html#the-warnings-filter
>>
>> Perhaps it's just a usability issue. We could have venvs help
>> us a bit with this by e.g. making such settings "global" per
>> venv, without the user having to configure PYTHONWARNINGS
>> or writing a sitecustomize.py for this purpose.
> 
> Maybe. In my own personal experience, I hit this sort of thing when
> using tools. Consider for example black - if that triggered a warning,
> I'd report it, but then what would I do? Edit my copy of black
> (possibly in multiple environments) to suppress the warning? Block the
> warning globally which means I then don't see it for other projects
> and hence don't report it to them? Work out the precise incantation to
> suppress it just for black?
> 
> In practice, I just moan a lot about the warning, and vote to suppress
> warnings by default next time the question comes up :-)
> 
> So yes, maybe it's an education/usability issue, but if so it's one
> that's hard to fix. If we can work out a way for users (who may well
> have limited programming knowledge) to just "push a button" to say "I
> reported that issue to black, now stop bothering me about it for this
> version of black (at least on this PC)"  then that would be great. But
> at the moment I don't believe it's that simple.

I wouldn't give up so fast :-)

If we'd make warning message more instructive and point people to
a simple command they could run to suppress the warning that
should take away a lot of the pain.

Sketching here:

"""
DeprecationWarning: The package x.y.z is using a deprecated feature
tadada at module.py:34. If you get a change, please report this to the
maintainers. In order to suppress warnings for this package, please run:
python3 -m warnings.ignore('::DeprecationWarning:package')
"""

The ignore() function would then add a warning filter to pyvenv.cfg,
if available, or output instructions on how to setup the environment
via the a usercustomize.py, sitecustomize.py or PYTHONWARNINGS
env var.

If you want a click-for-help approach, we could also put a URL
into the message, which then points to a page with specific
instructions (rendered to be specific to the warning instance
via a Django view for example).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Consider adding a Tier 3 to tiered platform support

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 09.04.2022 02:13, Brett Cannon wrote:



On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 5:03 AM Marc-Andre Lemburg > wrote:


On 06.04.2022 20:48, Brett Cannon wrote:
 > Last chance on whether my tier 3 proposal make sense! I will take
silence as
 > acceptance and plan to convert any current tier 2 platform with a
single core
 > dev to tier 3 and then ask the SC to approve/reject the list of
platforms. I
 > will also update the PEP about expectations of when things must
be considered
 > stable before b1, else a warning goes out that a platform risks
being dropped in
 > the RC (regardless of tier).
 >
 > I will also be filling out the tiers to include the vendor, but I
will be using
 > `unknown` instead of `*` since I haven't come across the latter
online while I
 > come across the former regularly (e.g.
 > https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support.html).

Could you please post the current proposal somewhere to read in
one complete piece ? It's become hard to figure out what is on
the table at the moment and the PR also doesn't appear to be
up to date:

https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2442/files


The PR is now up-to-date! For ease of reference, here's the critical part:


Thanks, Brett.


Support tiers
=

Platform support is broken down into *tiers*. Each tier comes with
different requirements which lead to different promises being made
about support.

To be promoted to a tier, steering council support is required and is
expected to be driven by team consensus. Demotion to a lower tier
occurs then the requirements of the current tier are no longer met for
a platform for an extended period of time based on the judgment of
the release manager or steering council. For platforms which no longer
meet the requirements of any tier by b1 of a new feature release, an
announcement will be made to warn the community of the pending removal
of support for the platform (e.g. in the b1 announcement). If the
platform is not brought into line for at least one of the tiers by the
first release candidate, it will be listed as unsupported in this PEP.

Tier 1
--

- `CI failures 
`__ 
block releases.
- Changes which would break the ``main`` branch are not allowed to be 
merged;

   any breakage should be fixed or reverted immediately.
- All core developers are responsible to keep ``main``, and thus these
   platforms, working.
- Failures on these platforms **block a release**.

 =
Target Triple            Notes
 =
i686-pc-windows-msvc
x86_64-pc-windows-msvc
x86_64-apple-darwin      BSD libc, clang
x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu glibc, gcc
 =


Tier 2
--

- Must have a reliable buildbot.
- At least **two** core developers are signed up to support the platform.
- Changes which break any of these platforms are to be **fixed or
   reverted within 24 hours**.
- Failures on these platforms **block a release**.

=== == 
== 
Target Triple               Notes                      Buildbot 
                               Contacts
=== == 
== 
aarch64-apple-darwin        clang 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/725 Ned Deily, Ronald 
Oussoren, Dong-he Na
aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu   glibc, gcc 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/125 Petr Viktorin, Victor Stinner


                             glibc, clang 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/234 Victor Stinner, Gregory 
P. Smith
powerpcle-unknown-linux-gnu glibc, gcc 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/90  Petr Viktorin, Victor Stinner
x86_64-unknownlinux-gnu     glibc, clang 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/441 Victor Stinner, Gregory 
P. Smith
=== == 
== 



Tier 3
--

- Must have a reliable buildbot.
- At least **one** core developer is signed up to support the platform.
- No response SLA to failures.
- Failures on these platforms do **not** block a release.

=== == 
== 
Target Triple               Notes                      Buildbot 
                               Contacts
=== == 
== 
aarch64-pc-windows-msvc https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/729 
Steve Dower
powerpcle-unknown-linux-gnu glibc, clang 
https://buildbot.python.org/all/#/builders/435 Victor Stinner
x86_64-unknown-freebsd      BSD libc, clang