Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
I have opened an issue (http://bugs.python.org/issue18529) for patches. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
19.07.13 22:32, Ben Finney написав(ла): Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: I'm asking only about this case, when the dash is used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements. That's two separate cases: * denote a break in a sentence * set off parenthetical statements In Wikipedia they considered as one case. In my experience, an em dash is commonly used for the former, and en dashes commonly used for the latter. Using the same dash for both is unusual (and IMO needlessly ambiguous to the reader). This is definitely should be described in the official guide. I never heard about this. Currently Python documentation uses fourth variants: All your examples are only for parenthetical statements. Can you find examples of the former, where a break (not parenthetical) in the sentence is intended? (2) and (4) are from Wikipedia (which consider it as one case). Here are real random examples from Python documentation: 1. Common installation tools such as ``Distribute`` and ``pip`` work as expected with venvs - i.e. when a venv is active, they install Python packages into the venv without needing to be told to do so explicitly. 2. Enter *string* in the table of interned strings and return the interned string which is *string* itself or a copy. 3. The :class:`set` type is mutable --- the contents can be changed using methods like :meth:`add` and :meth:`remove`. 4. Three locking mechanisms are used---dot locking and, if available, the :c:func:`flock` and :c:func:`lockf` system calls. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (–) or the em dash (—)? They have different purposes; use whichever is appropriate for the context. This isn't an official Python developer position. But all of ‘-’, ‘–’, ‘—’, ‘−’, etc. have distinct and common meanings in English text. So it's a mistaken idea to think of “which dash is preferable” since they are *all* preferable for their distinct uses. -- \“Science doesn't work by vote and it doesn't work by | `\authority.” —Richard Dawkins, _Big Mistake_ (The Guardian, | _o__) 2006-12-27) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
On 19 July 2013 17:25, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (-) or the em dash (--)? They have different purposes; use whichever is appropriate for the context. This isn't an official Python developer position. But all of '-', '-', '--', '-', etc. have distinct and common meanings in English text. So it's a mistaken idea to think of which dash is preferable since they are *all* preferable for their distinct uses. I don't know about common. I had no idea there were 3 dash types until a couple of weeks ago. I thought there were only two (short/hyphen/minus-sign and long/em-dash). I still don't really know what the difference is between the two long ones (en-dash vs em-dash). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
Le Fri, 19 Jul 2013 18:38:05 +1000, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com a écrit : On 19 July 2013 17:25, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (-) or the em dash (--)? They have different purposes; use whichever is appropriate for the context. This isn't an official Python developer position. But all of '-', '-', '--', '-', etc. have distinct and common meanings in English text. So it's a mistaken idea to think of which dash is preferable since they are *all* preferable for their distinct uses. I don't know about common. I had no idea there were 3 dash types until a couple of weeks ago. I thought there were only two (short/hyphen/minus-sign and long/em-dash). I still don't really know what the difference is between the two long ones (en-dash vs em-dash). But there aren't 3 dash types. There are at least 5 of them! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Common_dashes (not to mention that Twisted has/had its own dash, IIRC) cheers Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
On 19/07/13 18:38, Nick Coghlan wrote: I don't know about common. I had no idea there were 3 dash types *Way* more than three. hyphen minus sign (not the same as a hyphen!) en-dash em-dash two-em-dash three-em-dash figure dash horizontal bar swung dash plus another half-dozen or so non-English hyphens, all of which have different typographic (and sometimes grammatical) purposes. Wikipedia has a good description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash but a brief summary is: – hyphen - is the smallest and is used for compound words like out-tray; – minus sign − is normally raised compared to the others; – en-dash – should be the width of n and is used for ranges, like Mon–Fri; – em-dash — should be the width of m and is used for a break stronger than a comma but weaker than a full stop; – horizontal bar ― should be longer than the em-dash and is used for quotations in some European languages; – swung dash ⁓ is normally found in dictionaries (paper, not Python) to stand in for the word being defined. But of course different fonts follow these rules to a greater or lesser degree. -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
18.07.13 21:54, Brian Curtin написав(ла): Besides visual consistency in a couple of places, is there a reason to care enough to make a wholesale change? Single hyphen instead of a dash just looks too ugly to me. Trying to fix this I noticed that the documentation is inconsistent regarding the dash. Sometimes en and em dashes meet in the same line and in the same sentence. I.e.: The :mod:`weakref` module also allows creating proxy objects which behave like weak references --- an object referenced only by proxy objects is deallocated -- but instead of requiring an explicit call to retrieve the object, the proxy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
18.07.13 21:55, Guido van Rossum написав(ла): On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: Or we should replace a half-dozen of em-dashes found in Python documentation to en-dashes? If my theory is right that makes sense. Especially if it's only a half-dozen. I'm sorry, I were wrong. Actually em-dash used much more then en-dash in Python documentation. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
19.07.13 00:49, Ezio Melotti написав(ла): On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (–) or the em dash (—)? Both should be used where appropriate [0]. Of course I looked in Wikipedia before asking on this list. And I were surprised that en-dash allowed in same places as em-dashes: Either version may be used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements, although writers are generally cautioned to use a single form consistently within their work. In this function, en dashes are used with spaces and em dashes are used without them:[1] [Em dash:] In matters of grave importance, style—not sincerity—is the vital thing. [En dash:] In matters of grave importance, style – not sincerity – is the vital thing. I'm asking only about this case, when the dash is used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements. Currently Python documentation uses fourth variants: 1. A single hyphen - surrounded with spaces. In matters of grave importance, style - not sincerity - is the vital thing. I think this case should be converted to one of followed, but to what of them? 2. A double hyphen -- (converted to en-dash) surrounded with spaces. In matters of grave importance, style -- not sincerity -- is the vital thing. 3. A triple hyphen --- (converted to em-dash) surrounded with spaces. In matters of grave importance, style --- not sincerity --- is the vital thing. 4. A triple hyphen --- (converted to em-dash) which isn't surrounded with spaces. In matters of grave importance, style---not sincerity---is the vital thing. The em dash is more common, however -- (commonly used to indicate the em dash in e.g. emails) gets converted to an en dash by Sphinx [1]. I noticed this a while ago, and I started using --- in the documentation whenever I wanted an em dash. This is common in TeX. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
19.07.13 07:51, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
Optimistically, I think it would probably be safe[1] to replace --
or --- in text with \N{THIN SPACE}\N{EM DASH}\N{THIN SPACE} (or
\N{HAIR SPACE} if you prefer) without human review, but for any other
changes, I wouldn't even try to automate it.
No, it is not safe. -- used in code examples in which it doesn't
converted to en-dash. Also we should correct tables and underlines in
titles.
I have a manually written and multiple times checked patch (modifies
about 640 lines) which safely replaces -- with --- but I doubt
what actually should be a preferable dash.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: 19.07.13 10:25, Ben Finney написав(ла): Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (–) or the em dash (—)? They have different purposes; use whichever is appropriate for the context. I mean only a context where a dash is used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements. Yes, and both of those are used for different purposes, so “what type is preferable (for all the purposes you mention)” is a poor way of looking at it, IMO. Local style guides have rules about when and how to use the different dashes for specific contexts. (For myself, I prefer parenthetic dashes to be en dashes ‘–’, and a break in a sentence to be marked by an em dash ‘—’. But I also prefer to surround the dash with space for the latter purpose, so my preference isn't universal.) Wikipedia's article (already referred) discusses the matter fairly well URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashes. Currently Python documentation uses four different variants (see my answer to Ezio). I'd recommend that the Python documentation BDFL should choose and dictate an existing well-groomed style guide for Python documentation, preferably one which explicitly talks about when to use each of the commonly-used dashes. -- \“If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you | `\ have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither | _o__) on your side, pound the table.” —anonymous | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: I'm sorry, I were wrong. Actually em-dash used much more then en-dash in Python documentation. But, as you've also discovered, many authors will type two hyphens “--” when they want an em dash “—”, yet this is rendered to an en dash “–”. So the prevalence of the latter in the documentation probably does not reflect the preferences of the authors. -- \ “Nature hath given men one tongue but two ears, that we may | `\ hear from others twice as much as we speak.” —Epictetus, | _o__) _Fragments_ | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com writes: I'm asking only about this case, when the dash is used to denote a break in a sentence or to set off parenthetical statements. That's two separate cases: * denote a break in a sentence * set off parenthetical statements In my experience, an em dash is commonly used for the former, and en dashes commonly used for the latter. Using the same dash for both is unusual (and IMO needlessly ambiguous to the reader). Currently Python documentation uses fourth variants: All your examples are only for parenthetical statements. Can you find examples of the former, where a break (not parenthetical) in the sentence is intended? -- \ “When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. | `\Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole | _o__) one and asked Him to forgive me.” —Emo Philips | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Dash
What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (–) or the em dash (—)? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
I believe there are only a few places where en-dashes should be used, for most things you should use either em-dash or hyphen. Consult your trusted typography source (for US English, please, punctuation preferences vary by locale). E.g. Google for em dash en dash. On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: What type of dash is preferable in the documentation? The en dash (–) or the em dash (—)? -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
18.07.13 20:48, Guido van Rossum написав(ла): I believe there are only a few places where en-dashes should be used, for most things you should use either em-dash or hyphen. Consult your trusted typography source (for US English, please, punctuation preferences vary by locale). E.g. Google for em dash en dash. Currently Python documentation in most cases uses en-dashes. Should we replace them to em-dashes? Should we remove spaces around dashes? Or we should replace a half-dozen of em-dashes found in Python documentation to en-dashes? I believe all hypens used in place of dash should be replaced to dash (but to en- or em- dash?) in any case. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: 18.07.13 20:48, Guido van Rossum написав(ла): I believe there are only a few places where en-dashes should be used, for most things you should use either em-dash or hyphen. Consult your trusted typography source (for US English, please, punctuation preferences vary by locale). E.g. Google for em dash en dash. Currently Python documentation in most cases uses en-dashes. Should we replace them to em-dashes? Should we remove spaces around dashes? This may well be a relic from times when in typewritten text there were really only two types of dashes: a short one, typed as a hyphen, used for both hyphen and en-dash (and minus sign), and a long one, typed as two hyphens, used for em-dash. I suspect at some point the conversion to HTML or typeset text changed so that two hyphens mean en-dash and three mean em-dash, and few people noticed (and nobody really wants to type three hyphens except for a handful of typographical nuts). Or we should replace a half-dozen of em-dashes found in Python documentation to en-dashes? If my theory is right that makes sense. Especially if it's only a half-dozen. I believe all hypens used in place of dash should be replaced to dash (but to en- or em- dash?) in any case. But I wouldn't go change hundreds of hyphens -- chances are that you get bored reviewing the scripted automation you're using and break a few places. I'd say there are more important things to fix in the docs (like writing better overviews for many modules and classes). If we have a writing guide for the Python docs it would be useful to add something about dash types though. And if we don't have a writing guide, perhaps it makes sense to start one? -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
On 18/07/2013 7:55pm, Guido van Rossum wrote: This may well be a relic from times when in typewritten text there were really only two types of dashes: a short one, typed as a hyphen, used for both hyphen and en-dash (and minus sign), and a long one, typed as two hyphens, used for em-dash. I suspect at some point the conversion to HTML or typeset text changed so that two hyphens mean en-dash and three mean em-dash, and few people noticed (and nobody really wants to type three hyphens except for a handful of typographical nuts). Weren't the docs originally done LaTeX? In LaTeX -- is also an en-dash and --- is an em-dash. -- Richard ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Dash
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Richard Oudkerk shibt...@gmail.com wrote: On 18/07/2013 7:55pm, Guido van Rossum wrote: This may well be a relic from times when in typewritten text there were really only two types of dashes: a short one, typed as a hyphen, used for both hyphen and en-dash (and minus sign), and a long one, typed as two hyphens, used for em-dash. I suspect at some point the conversion to HTML or typeset text changed so that two hyphens mean en-dash and three mean em-dash, and few people noticed (and nobody really wants to type three hyphens except for a handful of typographical nuts). Weren't the docs originally done LaTeX? In LaTeX -- is also an en-dash and --- is an em-dash. Right -- but I've been typing two hyphens to mean an em-dash all my life. :-) -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
