Re: Hi All - Newby
Ask [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm simply using the IDLE editor to hand code, then compiling and running. That doesn't help. wxPython, Tkinter, and pyQt are just a few of the packages that can be used to put windows on the screen from Python. Python has no built-in user interface stuff, so whatever you are using to place a window is something you downloaded, or something that was installed with your Python. That's what we need to find out. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:28:46 +0200, Peter T. Breuer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I'm a bit curious about this. If I were a business person, I would simply have created two busineses (two accounts, etc.). One business sells only machines with MS on and pays the MS tax on all its machines. One business sells only machines without MS on and pays the MS tax on none of its machines. What's up with that? Try the same thing to deal with a Mafia extortion racket. We are not talking about legal agreements. We are talking junior Mafia style enforcement. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : The Microsoft agreement is also up front. It's not imposed in any sense except that it's one of the conditions for buying Windows wholesale. No it was not . It was never on paper. It was not imposed until I had been in business for at least 5 years. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : There is no different to Microsoft beween a bare computer and one preloaded with Linux or FreeBSD. One can quickly be converted to other with minimal cost of effort. In the market, bare PCs really do compete with Windows PCs. You think it is OK to force someone into a choice of committing a criminal act with the alternative of losing their established business and having to put 8 employees out of work. What religion do you belong to? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: strange problems with urllib2
jdonnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I run this code on windows it runs quickly (about a second per image) but when I run it on linux it runs very very slowly (10+ seconds per image). Is this a bug or am I missing something? On windows I tried 2.4.2 and 2.4.1 on linux i'm running 2.4.1 That kind of thing is often caused by DNS problems. Are you running named on your Linux machine? Have you double-checked that the named configuration and /etc/resolv.conf is correct? How long does it take for you to do this: wget http://site.heavenlytreasures.com/images/e6115.jpg -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: assignment to reference
Bruno Desthuilliers enlightened us with: for obj in (a, b, c): if obj == 'cabbage': obj = 'coconut' Doesn't work on my Python: Python 2.4.2 (#2, Sep 30 2005, 21:19:01) [GCC 4.0.2 20050808 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 4.0.1-4ubuntu8)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. a = 'apple' b = 'banana' c = 'cabbage' for obj in (a, b, c): ...if obj == 'cabbage': ... obj = 'coconut' ... c 'cabbage' Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: creating/altering the OpenOffice spredsheet docs
Andy Leszczynski leszczynscyATnospam.yahoo.com.nospam wrote: Any idea how to do that the way ActiveX would be used on M$? A. http://udk.openoffice.org/python/python-bridge.html -- Dale Strickland-Clark Riverhall Systems - www.riverhall.co.uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
loop help
Hello. I am using Python 2.3.5 with IDLE 1.0.5 on a Windows98 PC. I have some programming experience but mostly I am still learning. I am having some trouble understanding the behaviour of a piece of code I have written. It plots points using PIL. Here is my loop: triangle = [(320,27),(172,323),(468,323)] currentpoint = (randint(0,640),randint(0,350)) t = 0 while t 10: ct = choice(triangle) mp = (currentpoint[0] + ct[0])/2, (currentpoint[1] + ct[1])/2 draw.point(mp,(0,0,0)) currentpoint = mp t = t + 1 This works fine. But, if I try to divide by a floating point number in the calculation of mp, instead of mp being overwritten each time thru the loop, it starts accumulating, leading to overflow errors for large values of t. Why is this? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: DrPython - auto complete
On 26 Oct 2005 07:31:00 -0700, jas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I just started to use DrPython and I have installed the CodeCompletion plugin. I am using DrPython 161 (on windows) with wxPython 2.6.1. Anyhow, when I try something like x = [] x. ...it pops up x.filename, x.prepend and x.word. Shouldn't it show x.append, x.pop, etc? Just curious if anyone else uses this and has this problem. Or maybe the code completion doesn't work like I expect. Hi, definitively a bug, I have forwarded it into DrPython Bug Tracker. -- Franz Steinhaeusler -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: more than 100 capturing groups in a regex
It's a conflict between python's syntax for regex back references and octal number literals. Probably wasn't noticed until way too late, and now it will never change. So reasonable choice is not a really good description of the phenomenon. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How to processing multi redirect?
Tons of thanks for your help! Now I can fetching the page success. Thansk again. -- Gonnasi -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:28:46 +0200, Peter T. Breuer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I'm a bit curious about this. If I were a business person, I would simply have created two busineses (two accounts, etc.). One business sells only machines with MS on and pays the MS tax on all its machines. One business sells only machines without MS on and pays the MS tax on none of its machines. What's up with that? Try the same thing to deal with a Mafia extortion racket. This is precisely my point. Your premise is that a gun is no different from a persuasive argument. You need this principle to justify responding to arguments you don't like with guns. I reject this premise at its roots. We are not talking about legal agreements. We are talking junior Mafia style enforcement. Can you cite any evidence of Microsoft actually using or threatening force? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : The Microsoft agreement is also up front. It's not imposed in any sense except that it's one of the conditions for buying Windows wholesale. No it was not . It was never on paper. It was not imposed until I had been in business for at least 5 years. I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:07 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : There is no different to Microsoft beween a bare computer and one preloaded with Linux or FreeBSD. One can quickly be converted to other with minimal cost of effort. In the market, bare PCs really do compete with Windows PCs. You think it is OK to force someone into a choice of committing a criminal act with the alternative of losing their established business and having to put 8 employees out of work. What religion do you belong to? You often say things that just seem to have come out of the blue with no connection whatsoever to anything else. What criminal act was someone forced into committing? What are you talking about? If you have a business that sells PCs only because those PCs come preloaded with Windows, and without Windows to offer, there would be no market, then you have a business that exists at Microsoft's pleasure. The same thing would be the case with any piece of software by any manufacturer. Now, not all manufacturers would use their leverage, of course. But don't you think it would be pretty stupid of them not to? Why shouldn't they get from you, and why aren't they entitled to, as much as the ability to sell Windows is worth? Since, by your own admission, it's what made it possible for you to be in business? You say you couldn't stay in business without the ability to sell Windows wholesale. That means that every customer you get, in some part you owe to Microsoft. Why shouldn't you pay them their fair share of that? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:48:25 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : We are not talking about legal agreements. We are talking junior Mafia style enforcement. Can you cite any evidence of Microsoft actually using or threatening force? YES . Have you not read a word I said. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:49:27 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? This was all under the table. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:58:42 GMT, Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? This was all under the table. The other thing to understand is almost no one buys straight from Microsoft. One wholesale side there are levels of distributors. The threat is if you don't comply and they catch you, they will see to it none of your wholesalers will sell to you. No contracts involved anywhere. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: xml.dom.minidom - parseString - How to avoid ExpatError?
Have a look on: http://xml.com/pub/a/98/10/guide0.html?page=4#WELLFORMED Explains it better then I can. J Gregory Piñero wrote: What do you mean by well-formed? What is required to make XML well formed? -Greg On 10/26/05, *John Abel* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try this page: http://docs.python.org/lib/module-xml.sax.saxutils.html I've just tried the code, taking out the nbsp, and adding in the belo, as the XML is not well formed, otherwise. ?xml version=1.0 encoding=ISO-8859-15? The code then works. HTH J Gregory Piñero wrote: Should I try some sort of XML group instead? I'm still stuck on this. -Greg On 10/25/05, *Gregory Piñero* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, I was hoping some XML expert could help me make this code work. Below is sample code with sample XML similar to what I'm dealing with. How can I make the weird characters in the XML not break the parser? I'll do anything to make this work! (Note: the nbsp; broke my parser yesterday but doesn't seem to in this sample code) But really I'm looking for solutions that will handles lots of unusual characters. Much thanks, Greg code from xml.dom.minidom import parseString data= blog post This is sample problem text. nbsp; £500.00 /post /blog myDOM=parseString(data) /code error Traceback (most recent call last): File C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\pythonwin\pywin\framework\scriptutils.py, line 307, in RunScript debugger.run(codeObject, __main__.__dict__, start_stepping=0) File C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\pythonwin\pywin\debugger\__init__.py, line 60, in run _GetCurrentDebugger().run(cmd, globals,locals, start_stepping) File C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\pythonwin\pywin\debugger\debugger.py, line 631, in run exec cmd in globals, locals File C:\Documents and Settings\Gregory\My Documents\Python\xml help\xmlproc.py, line 9, in ? myDOM=parseString(data) File C:\Python23\lib\xml\dom\minidom.py, line 1929, in parseString return expatbuilder.parseString (string) File C:\Python23\lib\xml\dom\expatbuilder.py, line 940, in parseString return builder.parseString(string) File C:\Python23\lib\xml\dom\expatbuilder.py, line 223, in parseString parser.Parse(string, True) ExpatError: undefined entity: line 4, column 29 /error -- Gregory Piñero Chief Innovation Officer Blended Technologies (www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com) -- Gregory Piñero Chief Innovation Officer Blended Technologies (www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Gregory Piñero Chief Innovation Officer Blended Technologies (www.blendedtechnologies.com http://www.blendedtechnologies.com) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Web presentation layer/framework for python - recommendations?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am a python newbie and need some advice. I have been charged with redeveloping a web application with a front end written in python that has a backend of XML files. Currently it doesn't adequately separate out the presentation code from the content code. Frankly it’s a mess (think bowl of spagetti). Does anyone have any recommendations for python toolkits or templating systems that would simplify the cleanup and make the code more maintainable in the future? I am a newbie, but not afraid to have a go. I also haven't done any real application programming for a while - bit of perl and java stuff a few years back. Just do perl/python/shell scripting these days. All comments welcome :-) Regards Anthony. Mr Anthony Hornby Library Systems and Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University (CRICOS 300K) Phone: +61 8 8946 6011 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove the .no-spam) I've personally been pretty fond of TurboGears lately. It encourages a really clean MVC with SQLObject as the default model layer. I haven't checked, but I don't think SQLObject supports XML as a data source, but you could definitely write your own XML data access layer and use TurboGears. - jmj -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But there is no law against that type of conduct, *unless* you are a monopolist. So your conclusion hinges on the determination that Microsoft had a monopoly, and that hinges on the definition of the market. That's a different can of worms for a different part of this thread. The trial court determined and two different appeals courts upheld that MS had an illegal monopoly. I think they have more experience and knowledge of these things than you do. MS's illegal monopoly is an established legal fact regardless of your irrelevant opinion. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Would there be support for a more general cmp/__cmp__
Op 2005-10-26, Ron Adam schreef [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Antoon Pardon wrote: Op 2005-10-25, Steven D'Aprano schreef [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can somebody remind me, what is the problem Antoon is trying to solve here? Well there are two issues. One about correct behaviour and one about practicallity. The first problem is cmp. This is what the documentation states: cmp(x, y) Compare the two objects x and y and return an integer according to the outcome. The return value is negative if x y, zero if x == y and strictly positive if x y. The problem is, that if someone implements a partial ordered class, with the rich comparisons, cmp doesn't behave correct. It can't behave correct because it will always give an number as a result and such a number implies one of three relations between two elements, but with partial ordered classes, it is possible none of these relations exist between those two elements. So IMO cmp should be changed to reflect this. This can be done either by cmp returning None or UnequalValues. or by cmp raising UnequalValues in such a case. Instead of changing cmp, why not just have several common versions to choose from instead of trying to make one tool do it all? That would be an option. Lets call such an alternative comp. Would that mean also have a __comp__ method for customization. The second part is one of practicallity. Once you have accepted cmp, should reflect this possibility, it makes sense that the __cmp__ method should get the same possibilities, so that where it is more pratical to do so, the programmer can implement his partial order through one __cmp__ method instead of having to write six. In my opinion such a change would break no existing code. This is because there are two possibilities. 1) The user is using cmp on objects that form a total order. In such circumstances the behaviour of cmp doesn't change. 2) The user is using cmp on objects that don't form a total order. In such circumstances cmp doesn't give consistent results, so the code is already broken. Adding complexity to cmp may not break code, but it could probably slow down sorting in general. The evidence suggests that cmp is not used in sorting. If you have a list of sets, sort will happily try to sort it, while calling cmp with a set as an argument throws an exception. I have a feeling that adding comp (and its brother __comp__) would have a detrimental effect on sorting, because using '' would then mean one extra method to look for that could be used in determining if a b or not. So I would think what ever improvements or alternatives needs to be careful not to slow down existing sorting cases. I have done some tests and have come to the conclusion that other factors will have a greater influence on sorting times. I have written the following program to estimate effects: from random import shuffle from time import time class UnequalValues(Exception): pass class cla: def __init__(self, i): self.value = int(i) def __cmp__(self, other): return self.value - other.value class clb: def __init__(self, i): self.value = int(i) def __lt__(self, other): return self.value other.value class clc: def __init__(self, i): self.value = int(i) def __comp__(self, other): return self.value - other.value def __lt__(self, other): try: return self.__comp__(other) 0 except UnequalValues: return False def test(lng, rep): for cl in cla, clb, clc: total = 0.0 for _ in xrange(rep): lst = [cl(i) for i in xrange(lng)] shuffle(lst) start = time() lst.sort() stop = time() total += stop - start print %s: %d repeats, %d long, %9.6f secs % (cl, rep, lng, total) test(1000,1000) This is the result I get: __main__.cla: 1000 repeats, 1000 long, 31.986618 secs __main__.clb: 1000 repeats, 1000 long, 8.963896 secs __main__.clc: 1000 repeats, 1000 long, 16.893321 secs I find it very odd that clc sorts about twice as fast as cla. That means that every class that has a __cmp__ method can be speeded up with sorting by writing a similar __lt__ method as in clc. I do wonder what is causing this. -- Antoon Pardon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Would there be support for a more general cmp/__cmp__
Op 2005-10-26, Christopher Subich schreef [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Antoon Pardon wrote: Op 2005-10-25, Christopher Subich schreef [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My biggest complaint here is about returning None or IncomparableValue; if that happens, then all code that relies on cmp returning a numeric result will have to be rewritten. I don't know. There are two possibilities. 1) The user is working with a total order. In that case the None or IncomparableValues won't be returned anyway so nothing about his code has to change. 2) The user is working with a partial order. In that case cmp doesn't provide consistent results so the use of cmp in this case was a bug anyway. Case 3) The user is working with an unknown class, using duck typing, and expects a total order. If cmp suddenly returned Incomparable or None, the code would break in Unexpected Ways, with Undefined Behavior. This is case 2. Under the current circumstances working with cmp with a partial order will give inconsistent behaviour. So your code is already broken for relying on cmp to give consistent results in circumstances it can't. This is a classic exception versus error code argument; in this case, returning None would be the error flag. It's almost always better to just throw the exception, because then this allows error-checking at a more natural level. If you prefer a raised exception, I could live with that. As for saying that cmp should return some times and raise an exception other times, I just find it squicky. But cmp already behaves this way. The only difference would be that the decision would be made based on the values of the objects instead of only their class. Admittedly, this is entirely up to the class designer, and your proposed guideline wouldn't change cmp's behavior for clases that /are/ totally ordered. Then again, sets excepted, your guideline doesn't seem very applicable in standard library code. Well AFAIAC this isn't specific about library code. A change that cmp return a 4th possible value (None or Incomparable) is a fundamental language change. Because this would break large amounts of existing code, it's a bad idea. I have always included the option that cmp would raise an exception instead of returning a fourth value. -- Antoon Pardon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: loop help
What do you mean by 'it starts accumulating' in this context? Are you talking about the fact that numbers gain decimal places? Or the fact that using a number between 0 and 1 will make your values diverge to infinity? Either way, it's just mathematics for you, I'm afraid, and there's little Python can do about it. ;) Which part of the code issues the overflow error? I'm guessing it's the draw.point() call since that's the only bit I can't test. -- Ben Sizer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Sorting with only a partial order definition
I have a list of items and a rule for ordering them. Unfortunately, the rule is not complete so it won't define the correct order for any two items in that list. In other words, if I pick two random items from the list I may or may not have a rule that dictates the order of those two items. The rule could be implicit in that I got rules for other items, for instance: [a, b, c, d] a b b c If I now pick a and c out of the list I would not know wether a or c comes first, unless I grab the rules for ab and bc and imply that ac from those two. As such, there could be potentially many correct results from ordering such a list. (d is unspecified above so any position for d is actually legal) Is there anything in Python that will help me sort a list with something like this ? For instance, given the following list of items: items = [a, b, c, d] and the following two rules: a comes before d d comes before b then the following is a list of correct results (could be more though): [a, d, b, c] [a, c, d, b] [a, d, c, b] ... Note that this is an arbitrary example. The real list is a list of lists containing database rows, ie. something like this: [[10, Column 2, Column 3], [15, Column 2, Column 3], ...] If there isn't anything built in, does anyone have an idea about how to go about creating such an ordering function ? Tweaking a cmp-like function to return 0 for undefined didn't seem to work so there must be a slightly more intelligent solution than that. Perhaps the rules would have to be checked in a specific order. Doing a combinatorial solution and checking the rules aren't really an option as on last count there was close to 20K rows. There's also a lot of rules (also coming from a database). I was thinking I could do a sort based on one of the rules and use a stable sort for the following rules but doing that sometimes rearranged the list so that it was now incorrect going by the previous rules. Here's my initial test for doing a cmp-like solution: order = set([(a, d), (d, b)]) def my_cmp(a, b): if (a, b) in order: print a, , b return -1 elif (b, a) in order: print a, , b return +1 else: print a, ?, b return 0 items = [c, b, a, d] items.sort(cmp=my_cmp) print items This prints out: b ? c a ? b d a ['c', 'b', 'a', 'd'] Which is obviously incorrect. Any help or pointers would be most welcome. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: I have a list of items and a rule for ordering them. Unfortunately, the rule is not complete so it won't define the correct order for any two items in that list. This is called a partial ordering. [...] If there isn't anything built in, does anyone have an idea about how to go about creating such an ordering function ? Tweaking a cmp-like function to return 0 for undefined didn't seem to work so there must be a slightly more intelligent solution than that. Perhaps the rules would have to be checked in a specific order. The usual tools to deal with partial orderings are directed acyclic graphs, and topological sorting. Try Googling the terms along with Python. -- --Bryan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a list of items and a rule for ordering them. Unfortunately, the rule is not complete so it won't define the correct order for any two items in that list. In other words, if I pick two random items from the list I may or may not have a rule that dictates the order of those two items. The rule could be implicit in that I got rules for other items, for instance: That's called topological sorting and any reference on graph algorithms will describe how to do it. I don't know of Python code offhand but it's easy to write. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_sorting gives a straightforward linear-time algorithm. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:49:27 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? They were demanding I sell a copy of windows with every machine I constructed, whether the customer wanted or not, even if the customer had us install some other OS. The threat was that I did not comply, they would put me out of business by arranging that my wholesalers would stop selling any MS product to me, with veiled threat of even worse strangulation. What I don't think you understand this threat would was just as effective in putting he out of business as threatening to sending in goons every week to smash my shop to pieces. I could at least have a chance of legal recourse with the vandals. It will be very hard to prosecute MS for their crimes because they commit them much the way the Mafia does. No one has any paper. Everyone was terrified of MS and would never dream of going public. I have talked about this publicly many times because it always looked as if I were going to die in a few years anyway. To put this in perspective, IBM's salespeople made much nastier threats in their heyday. Dick Toewes, head of Inland Natural Gas, was in charge of a tender for a new mainframe to do billing. I was working on the Univac bid at the time. He said that the IBM salesman said to him, We know you have an eight year old little girl. We know she walks along X street every day on her way to school. It would be a terrible thing if somebody hurt her. I wrote a tender for about $1 million in computer equipment for BC Hydro gas. There were many bidders hoping to get a foothold in a solidly IBM shop. IBM sent a weird chap to see me, dressed as a gangster, talking in a gangster accent, with a strange tic like Dustin Hoffman's Ratso Rizzo in midnight cowboy. He made no specific threats, but his act was straight out of Hollywood,you knows what I means warning me about the consequences of picking anything but IBM, how I might get the reputation as unreliable... There were the standard tactics on $1 million contracts. Imagine the dirty tricks for the big ones. Mind you, back then $1 million was serious money, especially when you considered the no-bid followons over the years. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:13:39 GMT, Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : To put this in perspective, IBM's salespeople made much nastier threats in their heyday. Dick Toewes, head of Inland Natural Gas, was in charge of a tender for a new mainframe to do billing. I was working on the Univac bid at the time. He said that the IBM salesman said to him, We know you have an eight year old little girl. We know she walks along X street every day on her way to school. It would be a terrible thing if somebody hurt her. The tactic Univac/Burroughs/Prime used, at least for big sales, was for example invite the potential customer to view some installation to talk to a satisfied client about how they were using their gear. There might be a convenient client in say ... Las Vegas. The game then became to get the client to get drunk and laid and do crazy things to help very uptight people cut loose. On one of these trips, we ran through fields chasing fireflies. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
SOAPpy module
Hello fellow pythonista's! I would like to ask if there's any good people who had experience in using the SOAPpy module. I'm currently rewriting a SOAP client that is written in PERL which uses the SOAP::Lite module. I managed to fetch the XML response from the server but I'm getting XML parser errors. I turned on the SOAP debug mode so that I could check the Incoming SOAP message and it was ok. :o Has anyone experienced this? I'm googling like crazy these past few weeks just to find a solution to this predicament. Thank you in advance! :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: a Haskell a Day
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Xah Lee wrote: I hope you will join me in learning Haskell. I think the folks here are more interested in Perl. There's a reason why this newsgroup is called lc(comp.lang.PERL.misc). Or python, or c, or java, or unix programming. There is a reason why this is called cross posting. /Niklas Norrthon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Paul Rubin wrote: Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a list of items and a rule for ordering them. Unfortunately, the rule is not complete so it won't define the correct order for any two items in that list. In other words, if I pick two random items from the list I may or may not have a rule that dictates the order of those two items. The rule could be implicit in that I got rules for other items, for instance: That's called topological sorting and any reference on graph algorithms will describe how to do it. I don't know of Python code offhand but it's easy to write. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_sorting gives a straightforward linear-time algorithm. Thank you both. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Missing modules '_ssl', 'ext.IsDOMString', 'ext.SplitQName'
Hi,,thanks for the tip. I'*m still stuck, but that link got me past the problem with the unknow encoding. I now get this traceback: Traceback (most recent call last): File App1.py, line 23, in ? File App1.py, line 19, in main File wx\_core.pyc, line 5691, in __init__ File wx\_core.pyc, line 5343, in _BootstrapApp File App1.py, line 13, in OnInit File Frame1.pyc, line 25, in create File Frame1.pyc, line 170, in __init__ File brain.pyc, line 15, in __init__ File points.pyc, line 16, in __init__ File xml\dom\ext\reader\Sax2.pyc, line 385, in FromXmlStream File xml\dom\ext\reader\Sax2.pyc, line 346, in __init__ File xml\sax\saxexts.pyc, line 77, in make_parser xml.sax._exceptions.SAXReaderNotAvailable: No parsers found I checked out what Ron suggested, but I've no files where the names could clash with python modules. Thanks, Martin. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Bryan Olson wrote: The usual tools to deal with partial orderings are directed acyclic graphs, and topological sorting. Try Googling the terms along with Python. here's a rather powerful timbot implementation: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-July/006625.html /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: assignment to reference
Thank you all for your replies. They have helped me understand that immutable means just that! Blame my c heritage where a pointer allows you to scribble over anything. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Setting a Limit to the Maximum Size of an Upload
Yes, I see that now. I tried your method and it seemed to work fine until I tried printing the filesize out. def checkfilesize(thefile): # Check the Size of the File global filesize thefile.seek(0,2) filesize = thefile.tell() thefile.seek(0) print filesize print conf[upmax] if filesize = conf[upmax]: print File Size Okay. noupload = False else: print File is too Large. noupload = True Basically conf[upmax] is a number that I extract from a configuration file that is the maximum size of an upload. I had tried setting conf[upmax] to 1 and it should have technically disallowed a 28 byte file to pass through. But it did, so I added two lines to print the file size and the conf[upmax] variable. The file size turned out to be 0! thefile still is just params[upfile].file, by the way. Any suggestions? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Missing modules '_ssl', 'ext.IsDOMString', 'ext.SplitQName'
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: xml.sax._exceptions.SAXReaderNotAvailable: No parsers found http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/Py2exeAndPyXML I checked out what Ron suggested, but I've no files where the names could clash with python modules. next time you get stuck, make sure to check this page http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/Py2Exe /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: 1 Million users.. I can't Scale!!
How are you actually sending messages to the SMSC? If you are directly connected - IE using SMPP or UCP then I would imagine that there is a bottle neck at the SMSC. Large SMSC systems in the US typically deliver upto 1000 sm/s with larger systems delivering 2000+ sm/s - From the throughput you require I can see this could be a problem. I can imagine the carrier would not be happy for your application to dominate the SMSC and may impose throttling on your application. What have you agreed with the carrier ragarding your connection. With a high volume application it is important to verify the network bandwidth available and round trip delays. Also, verify the the windowing parameters for the SMPP/UCP connection and the maximum number of connections you are allowed to make. Are you connecting to a multi-node SMSC? Then make separate connections to each node. Peter. phil wrote: Quite true and this lack of clarity was a mistake on my part. Requests from users do not really become a significant part of this equation because, as described above, once a user subscribes the onus is upon us to generate messages throughout a given period determined by the number of updates a user has subscribed to receive. So you are trying to SEND a million times several packets every 5 minutes? No way Python is the bottleneck in that volume. I have a POS app in Python that handles 10,000 packets per SECOND including a MySQL lookup. You have a bottleneck, but its not Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: Paul Rubin wrote: Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a list of items and a rule for ordering them. snip Ok, managed to implement the algorithm. Might not be the optimal solution (memory and speed-wise) but it worked and doesn't take too long to run either so I'm going to stick with it. I have a different question though, along the same lines, but one that doesn't need a solution, just want to know if something like it exists. A while back I had an application that had a lot of items that it needed to order. The problem, however, was that the rules was not defined at all. Instead it was opted for a visual solution where the user would be presented with images and had to rearrange them in the order that was necessary. The application was one I helped build for a friend which combined images from several cameras and allowed him to sort them according to the contents so that he could get a timeline formed. The date/time stamps on the cameras was not directly usable for various reasons so the visual ordering was what we ended up on. For instance, two of the cameras was not digital ones so they had no timestamp except for the one provided by the scanning software. In that application we talked about presenting the user with two and two images and he just had to click on the image that came first. The problem with this was to try to present the right images to the user so that he had to minimize the number of clicks. In other words, try to pick nodes in the graph and ask the user to provide the direction of the edge, and the picking algorithm would work in such a way that the number of edges would be minimized. Not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. The solution we ended up with was to present the user with all the images in one big timeline and just let him drag them around. This worked. What I was wondering about is if there is an algorithm that would do what I want? Ie. help me pick the nodes so as to minimize the number of edges. Obviously the answer to the first pair of nodes will influence which nodes will be subsequently picked, so each answer would stear the algorithm in a way, not just go into the final problem. If anyone got the name of such an algorithm or something I would like to look at it at least. Application is built and deployed so I'm not looking for a solution to implement. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In that application we talked about presenting the user with two and two images and he just had to click on the image that came first. The problem with this was to try to present the right images to the user so that he had to minimize the number of clicks. If you're trying to sort those pictures chronologically, there is a total ordering and the best you can do in general is a standard O(N log N) sorting algorithm. If you've got good timestamps on some of the pics, so you want to minimize comparisons involving pics with no timestamps, hmm, maybe some optimizations are possible. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Hi All - Newby
Hi TIm, Ahh I see.. (Told you I was a newby!) ;-) Tkinter is what I'm using as that was loaded by default with the installation of Python I am using. Thanks Regards Pauly Tim Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Ask [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm simply using the IDLE editor to hand code, then compiling and running. That doesn't help. wxPython, Tkinter, and pyQt are just a few of the packages that can be used to put windows on the screen from Python. Python has no built-in user interface stuff, so whatever you are using to place a window is something you downloaded, or something that was installed with your Python. That's what we need to find out. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sorting with only a partial order definition
On Thursday 27 October 2005 11:08, Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: What I was wondering about is if there is an algorithm that would do what I want? Ie. help me pick the nodes so as to minimize the number of edges. To rephrase your question, you want a sorting algorithm that minimises the number of comparisons (because a comparison involves asking a human), and which takes advantage of any pre-existing rough ordering. You need timsort - the algorithm behind python lists sort() method. -- Toby Dickenson -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz schrieb: When you are not in the majority, you are going to face inconveniences. You'd face the same inconvenience if you wanted to buy a new car without seats. Most people wants cars with seats, so that's the way they're packaged. What a stupid comparison! A computer without Windows is a computer with another operating system. It isn't even comparable to a car with specially expensive non standard seats. -- Dr. Sibylle Koczian Universitaetsbibliothek, Abt. Naturwiss. D-86135 Augsburg e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
In [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul Rubin: [Snip...] The trial court determined and two different appeals courts upheld that MS had an illegal monopoly. And M$ is still intransigent about that LEGAL FACT, much to the dismay of the federal judge overseeing the latest (toothless) consent decree: In a rare display of indignation, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly demanded an explanation from Microsoft's lawyers and told them, This should not be happening. Legal and industry experts said Microsoft's demands probably would have violated a landmark antitrust settlement the same judge approved in 2002 between the company and the Bush administration. The government and Microsoft disclosed details of the dispute in a court document last week. More at: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051026/microsoft_antitrust.html?.v=3 Just to really get her riled, the M$ snakes pulled another stunt: This needs to get done, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly said of a project designed to help put potential rivals on a more equal competitive footing with Microsoft. If there's an issue of resources, then put them in, said Kollar-Kotelly, who endorsed the settlement with the U.S. government and state attorneys general in November 2002. More at (line wrapped): http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh193 85_2005-10-26_23-14-09_n26509630_newsml Any M$ apologists saying M$ isn't an illegal monopoly are just as much a part of that pack of liars and thieves as M$ itself. They need to discuss it with Judge Colleen, and STignorantFU about it. -- Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS * Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots. Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT. Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:31:41 GMT, Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to pay full retail for the OSes. Through intimidation, MS managed to control the entire retail computer market in Vancouver BC to the extent you could not buy even the most stripped down computer without having to buy a copy of Windows with it, whether you wanted it or not. You might not want it because you bought OS/2. You might not want it because you already owned Windows from your older machine you were upgrading. You might not want it because somebody stole your machine and they did not steal all your software masters. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Paul Rubin wrote: David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But there is no law against that type of conduct, *unless* you are a monopolist. So your conclusion hinges on the determination that Microsoft had a monopoly, and that hinges on the definition of the market. That's a different can of worms for a different part of this thread. The trial court determined and two different appeals courts upheld that MS had an illegal monopoly. I think they have more experience and knowledge of these things than you do. MS's illegal monopoly is an established legal fact regardless of your irrelevant opinion. The appeals courts upheld that the trial court did not abuse its discretion. However, both a finding of yes, Microsoft had a monopoly and a finding of no, Microsoft did not have a monopoly would both have been within the trial court's discretion. They could just as easily have found that Linux, OSX, FreeBSD, and other operating systems competed with Windows. To call it an established legal fact is to grossly distort the circumstances under which it was determined and upheld. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:49:27 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Microsoft demanded you pay them per machine you sold under the table in the absence of a written contract that said that? Or are you simply saying that they changed the terms of your agreement when it came up for renewal? They were demanding I sell a copy of windows with every machine I constructed, whether the customer wanted or not, even if the customer had us install some other OS. Right I understand that. You could have complied simply by only selling computers with Windows preinstalled. In other words, you could have treated this the same as a demand for franchise or exclusivity if you had wanted to. The threat was that I did not comply, they would put me out of business by arranging that my wholesalers would stop selling any MS product to me, with veiled threat of even worse strangulation. Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with you if you broke your agreements with them. What I don't think you understand this threat would was just as effective in putting he out of business as threatening to sending in goons every week to smash my shop to pieces. I understand that it is just as effective, but that's not the issue. If I'm hungry, a person who refuses to give me a loaf of bread for free may be just as effective at killing me as a person who shoots me. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no obligation to feed a person and there is an obligation not to shoot them. I could at least have a chance of legal recourse with the vandals. Only because their actions are unreasonable and Microsoft's are not. It will be very hard to prosecute MS for their crimes because they commit them much the way the Mafia does. Right, they send gun-wielding thugs to use force against people. That's a lot like refusing to do business with people who won't uphold their contractual obligations. No one has any paper. Everyone was terrified of MS and would never dream of going public. I have talked about this publicly many times because it always looked as if I were going to die in a few years anyway. I think you're starting to go off the deep end. To put this in perspective, IBM's salespeople made much nastier threats in their heyday. Dick Toewes, head of Inland Natural Gas, was in charge of a tender for a new mainframe to do billing. I was working on the Univac bid at the time. He said that the IBM salesman said to him, We know you have an eight year old little girl. We know she walks along X street every day on her way to school. It would be a terrible thing if somebody hurt her. Yep, way off the deep end. I wrote a tender for about $1 million in computer equipment for BC Hydro gas. There were many bidders hoping to get a foothold in a solidly IBM shop. IBM sent a weird chap to see me, dressed as a gangster, talking in a gangster accent, with a strange tic like Dustin Hoffman's Ratso Rizzo in midnight cowboy. He made no specific threats, but his act was straight out of Hollywood,you knows what I means warning me about the consequences of picking anything but IBM, how I might get the reputation as unreliable... There were the standard tactics on $1 million contracts. Imagine the dirty tricks for the big ones. Mind you, back then $1 million was serious money, especially when you considered the no-bid followons over the years. If that kind of thing ever happened (which I seriously doubt), it's absolutely reprehensible. I find it almost possible to believe that individuals on commission might do this kind of thing with no knowledge of their corporate higher ups, or perhaps even that people one level up or so might do it if they are also on commission. But I find it almost impossible to believe that any major corporation could do this as a policy. Of course, the individuals who use actual force or threats of fraud (and blacklisting because they didn't buy from you is fraud), deserve to be prosecuted and imprisoned. Do you have any documentation or evidence to support these claims? Or am I supposed to take your word for it? (Honestly, it seems like you're just trying to mess with me.) DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: The tactic Univac/Burroughs/Prime used, at least for big sales, was for example invite the potential customer to view some installation to talk to a satisfied client about how they were using their gear. There might be a convenient client in say ... Las Vegas. Yep, that's a classic. Notice that no force, fraud, or threats are involved. The game then became to get the client to get drunk and laid and do crazy things to help very uptight people cut loose. On one of these trips, we ran through fields chasing fireflies. That is a bit questionable, I admit. It is questionable because the intent is pretty obviously to get the individuals more interested in being nice to you than looking out for the interests of their employers when they make their purchasing decisions. On the other hand, it's a far cry from force, fraud, blacklisting, threats of false accusations, and so on. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Sibylle Koczian wrote: David Schwartz schrieb: When you are not in the majority, you are going to face inconveniences. You'd face the same inconvenience if you wanted to buy a new car without seats. Most people wants cars with seats, so that's the way they're packaged. What a stupid comparison! A computer without Windows is a computer with another operating system. It isn't even comparable to a car with specially expensive non standard seats. It is comparable in the only sense in which I used a comparison. More people want a computer with Windows preinstalled than want it any other way. Similarly, more people want a car with standard seats preinstalled than want it any other way. Who said anything about 'specially expensive'? Are you pretending I said that just so you can refute it? It kind of reminds me of a scene from Futurama, which went roughly like this: Leela: We need to get some money. Fry: Well how are we going to do that? A daring daylight robbery of Fort Knox on elephant back? That's the dumbest idea I ever heard! DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: select.select() on windows
yes, i missed, sorry Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:29:17 +0300, Maksim Kasimov [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: you have to use non-block readining. http://docs.python.org/lib/module-select.html: A time-out value of zero specifies a poll and never blocks. Did you miss the subject line... ... on windows? select() only works with sockets on windows, not on regular file streams. -- Best regards, Maksim Kasimov mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
In comp.os.linux.misc David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, both a finding of yes, Microsoft had a monopoly and a finding of no, Microsoft did not have a monopoly would both have been within the trial court's discretion. Well, of course, and they said YES (as a finding of fact). They could just as easily have found that Linux, OSX, FreeBSD, and other operating systems competed with Windows. It would have been irrelevant. To call it an established legal fact is to grossly distort the circumstances under which it was determined and upheld. Uh, it's an established legal fact. So I think your logic is off there. Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:31:41 GMT, Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to pay full retail for the OSes. Through intimidation, MS managed to control the entire retail computer market in Vancouver BC to the extent you could not buy even the most stripped down computer without having to buy a copy of Windows with it, whether you wanted it or not. You might not want it because you bought OS/2. You might not want it because you already owned Windows from your older machine you were upgrading. You might not want it because somebody stole your machine and they did not steal all your software masters. Tell me, can you buy a new car without seats? Guess what, you have to buy those seats whether you want them or not. Try to start a business selling competing seats for a new car. Your seats may be cheaper, better, but how can you possibly compete when people have to pay for factory car seats whether they want them or not? The real reason PCs were not available without Windows was because not enough people wanted them that way to justify setting up a business to provide them that way, and Microsoft was not going to let a business parasitically use Windows to build a business that touted the advantages of competing products. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
In comp.os.linux.misc David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft was not going to let a business parasitically use Windows to build a business that touted the advantages of competing products. Well, it should have, because that's what manufacturers of operating systems, washing machines, and so on, are supposed to do. And so says the legal system. Attempting to subvert market economics like that is illegal. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) They're not obliged to. There is no comparison. Not even the same kind of business in the abstract. Try :- Cow Meat Inc. will see that no supplier will ever sell you cow meat again if you also sell vegetables in your totally independent restaurant. Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Roedy Green wrote: snip competing products. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) Rather odd comparison don't you think ? A better comparison would be if Burger King purchases the fries from a factory that says that Burger King has to give out a pack of fries with all meals, regardless of the type of meal, or they are going to raise the price. In other words, you'll be forced to take a pack of fries with your ice cream, salad or what not. Considering that McDonalds have been selling meals with potato-boats (don't know the correct english term for it, carved potato pieces fried), they'd have to give you a pack of fries with your meal regardless, even if you want to replace the fries with potato-boats. Also, in this case Burger King won't sell you is not the same as can't sell you, which seems to be the case with this whole Microsoft discussion. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to easily buy a computer from Microsoft with OS/2 installed or vice versa either and I'm not sure they would be obliged to do so either. However, controlling what an independant outlet is doing, that's different. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The appeals courts upheld that the trial court did not abuse its discretion. However, both a finding of yes, Microsoft had a monopoly and a finding of no, Microsoft did not have a monopoly would both have been within the trial court's discretion. No, that finding would have been contradictory to the facts at hand. They could just as easily have found that Linux, OSX, FreeBSD, and other operating systems competed with Windows. Nice try, but those other OS's did not have enough market share to prevent the finding of monopoly under the law. To call it an established legal fact is to grossly distort the circumstances under which it was determined and upheld. Who is paying you to post such nonsense? If the trial court determines a fact and it's upheld on appeal, it's an established legal fact regardless of whether you or Microsoft likes it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Missing modules '_ssl', 'ext.IsDOMString', 'ext.SplitQName'
Hi, thanks for the tip. That did it! Though I have one funny: i've got Active State Python 2.4 installed and so the line has to read --packages _xmlplus.sax.drivers,_xmlplus.sax.drivers2 Thanks again, Martin. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:07:50 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : That is a bit questionable, I admit. It is questionable because the intent is pretty obviously to get the individuals more interested in being nice to you than looking out for the interests of their employers when they make their purchasing decisions. I don't think this was as reprehensible as what MS did. For a start, everyone could refuse the trip if they wanted without dire consequences. They could also refuse to go out partying each night with the salesmen. They could refrain from alcohol (as I did). Even though I don't think in most cases the salesmen went so far as to purchase hookers or lap dancers, they did after the evening's revelry know something about the client that potentially could be very embarrasing if it were revealed to a spouse, without the tiniest hint of a threat to do so. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Right, they send gun-wielding thugs to use force against people. That's a lot like refusing to do business with people who won't uphold their contractual obligations. You stupid fuck! How many times do I have to tell you. There was NO contract. Just a THREAT to make me do what they wanted, to go along with their extortion racket. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:35:33 -0500, Andy Leszczynski wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Every line = more labour for the developer = more cost and time. Every line = more places for bugs to exist = more cost and time. The place I work at the creation rate is not a problem - we could crank out in the team 1000s lines a week. Good on you. I assume those thousands of lines are good ones, and not just churning out quantity instead of quality. In any case, no matter how fast you are, you will be faster if you have fewer lines to write. Most time we spend is on maintanance . This is where Pyton shines over Java/C++/Perl. It is easy to read thus maintane. Yes. Now imagine how much less maintenance you'd have to do with fewer lines. Of course, it is easy to take this to extremes. One thing which is a red rag to me is when folks have written perfectly good, efficient, fast, readable code in four lines, and then obsess how can I write this as a one-liner?. That way to the Dark Side goes: unreadable, cryptic, unmaintainable, buggy code. In any case, lines of code is a very poor metric for measuring programmer productivity. I'm not even so sure it is better than nothing -- in some cases, it is *worse* than nothing. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with you if you broke your agreements with them. You could have a more productive debate with a talking coke machine than you. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Peter T. Breuer wrote: In comp.os.linux.misc David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft was not going to let a business parasitically use Windows to build a business that touted the advantages of competing products. Well, it should have, because that's what manufacturers of operating systems, washing machines, and so on, are supposed to do. And so says the legal system. Attempting to subvert market economics like that is illegal. Actually, there are washing machines that are only available in particular stores. I believe Kenmore washing machines, for example, are only available wholesale as part of a franchise deal. I don't know why you think that's an attempt to subvert market economics, it's actually just a normal part of the way the market works. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) They're not obliged to. There is no comparison. Not even the same kind of business in the abstract. Try :- Cow Meat Inc. will see that no supplier will ever sell you cow meat again if you also sell vegetables in your totally independent restaurant. So you are saying Microsoft wouldn't sell Windows wholesale to business A if totally independent business B wouldn't pay them a per-system-sold royalty? That makes no sense. The comparison is perfect. Microsoft made Windows available wholesale for resale only as part of a franchise-style agreement. This is a completely typical thing to do. (Though I don't think it's typical for operating systems, I'd be very surprised if it hadn't been done with an operating system before. Sun seems to have similar restrictions now, in fact.) DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: loop help
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:00:34 +, Gorlon the Impossible wrote: Hello. I am using Python 2.3.5 with IDLE 1.0.5 on a Windows98 PC. I have some programming experience but mostly I am still learning. I am having some trouble understanding the behaviour of a piece of code I have written. It plots points using PIL. Here is my loop: triangle = [(320,27),(172,323),(468,323)] currentpoint = (randint(0,640),randint(0,350)) t = 0 while t 10: Let me guess... you're a C programmer, right? This is bad practice. The preferred idiom is to do something like this: for t in range(10): # loop Why manage your own loop variable, inefficiently duplicating code that already exists in Python? ct = choice(triangle) mp = (currentpoint[0] + ct[0])/2, (currentpoint[1] + ct[1])/2 draw.point(mp,(0,0,0)) currentpoint = mp t = t + 1 This works fine. But, if I try to divide by a floating point number in the calculation of mp, instead of mp being overwritten each time thru the loop, it starts accumulating, leading to overflow errors for large values of t. Why is this? Please explain your problem first. In particular, show us the code that you use that it (what?) starts accumulating. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: David Schwartz wrote: Roedy Green wrote: snip competing products. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) Rather odd comparison don't you think ? No, it's dead on. A better comparison would be if Burger King purchases the fries from a factory that says that Burger King has to give out a pack of fries with all meals, regardless of the type of meal, or they are going to raise the price. In other words, you'll be forced to take a pack of fries with your ice cream, salad or what not. Considering that McDonalds have been selling meals with potato-boats (don't know the correct english term for it, carved potato pieces fried), they'd have to give you a pack of fries with your meal regardless, even if you want to replace the fries with potato-boats. The reason this is a much worse comparison is that the fries don't determine the nature, to the consumer, of the meal. On the other hand, there is a sense in which all PCs running, say Windows 98, are alike to the consumer. That is, what Microsoft provided is what put the product in its class to the consumer, and to the typical consumer, the meal is a unit. Also, in this case Burger King won't sell you is not the same as can't sell you, which seems to be the case with this whole Microsoft discussion. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to easily buy a computer from Microsoft with OS/2 installed or vice versa either and I'm not sure they would be obliged to do so either. However, controlling what an independant outlet is doing, that's different. I'm talking about Burger King corporate, the wholesale distributor and franchise licensor. They control what any entity that wants to sell their branded products can do, and do so very strictly. The term independent outlet is hiding the entire point. Microsoft has no more obligation to sell Windows through independent outlets than Burger Kind corporate has an obligation to sell Whoppers through indepedent outlets, which is none at all. Microsoft elected only to allow Windows to be purchased wholesale through a franchisee like arrangement, so you were no longer a fully independent outlet. I think the history shows that Microsoft opted for a franchisee-type arrangement for much the same reason Burger King does. They want their company name to have value and bring in customers. To do this, they have to prevent their company name from being associated with products that don't provide the experience they want associated with their name and they have to prevent companies that draw based on the popularity of Windows but then switch people to other products. Because Burger King corporate doesn't want a person to see the golden arches, walk in, and get a crappy burger or be told that a competing burger is cheaper and better, they only allow their branded products to be sold at any business that can draw using their name and products. Microsoft, for much the same reasons, resticted people's ability to modify Windows or sell both Windows and competing products. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Paul Rubin wrote: David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The appeals courts upheld that the trial court did not abuse its discretion. However, both a finding of yes, Microsoft had a monopoly and a finding of no, Microsoft did not have a monopoly would both have been within the trial court's discretion. No, that finding would have been contradictory to the facts at hand. How would it have been contradictory to the facts at hand to find that OSX competes with Windows? They could just as easily have found that Linux, OSX, FreeBSD, and other operating systems competed with Windows. Nice try, but those other OS's did not have enough market share to prevent the finding of monopoly under the law. That's not what happened. With OSX, for example, the court decided that OSX didn't compete with Windows and therefore the market share of OSX was not even relevent. OSX could have sold twice as many units as Windows and under the court's reasoning, Microsoft would still have been a monopoly. To call it an established legal fact is to grossly distort the circumstances under which it was determined and upheld. Who is paying you to post such nonsense? That's basically slander. If the trial court determines a fact and it's upheld on appeal, it's an established legal fact regardless of whether you or Microsoft likes it. Suppose hypothetically an issue of fact in a case is razor thin, as close as it can possibly be. The trial court judge says, This is as close as something can possibly be. A decision of X is basically just as well supported as Y. Nevertheless, I will find X. (Assume the court must find X or Y and they are contradictory.) The appeals court says that either X or Y would be a reasonable finding for the trial court to make since they were essentially equally supported, so the decision is upheld. Does this make X an established legal fact in your mind? The trial court had several possible decisions about what the scope of the market was to be for purposes of determining what share of the market Microsoft had. Obviously, software was too large a scope and would result in the conclusion that Microsoft has some miniscule percentage of the market. Operating systems that can run WIN32 software natively was too small a scope, and would result in the conclusion that Microsoft had basically 100% of the market. However, the choice of the place in-between was critical. In fact, by the court's definition of the market, Apple is a monopolist with OSX. And what are Apple's rules for obtaining OSX wholesale? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with you if you broke your agreements with them. I am going to summarise this then drop out. My blood pressure is at a boil. I was a computer retailer. We built custom computers. I had 8 people working for me. This was in the time prior to Win95 when IBM had a clearly technically superior solution with OS/2 to MS's Windows 3.1 I had no contract of any kind with MS. I never bought anything from them directly. I was far too small a fish. I bought the components including software through dozens of wholesale suppliers. MS threatened to put any retailer out of business who would not co-operate with them in extorting money from people who had no use for MS Windows who explicitly for various reasons did not want to buy MS windows. To me that is no different from a popsicle manufacturer demanding I sell $200 popsicles with every machine I sold. The machines needed MS Windows no more than they needed a popsicle. The particular way MS threatened to put me out of business was by threatening to arm twist all wholesalers to refuse to sell MS product to me, which any retailer needed to survive in those days. It was obviously quasi legal or the threats would have had paper to back them up so I could go to court now to sue the fuckers. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
In comp.os.linux.misc David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter T. Breuer wrote: In comp.os.linux.misc David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft was not going to let a business parasitically use Windows to build a business that touted the advantages of competing products. Well, it should have, because that's what manufacturers of operating systems, washing machines, and so on, are supposed to do. And so says the legal system. Attempting to subvert market economics like that is illegal. Actually, there are washing machines that are only available in particular stores. I believe Kenmore washing machines, for example, are only available wholesale as part of a franchise deal. Good for them - I guess nobody else would want them (I certainly wouldn't want something which hadn't been subjected to the test of a competetive market)! In case you hadn't noticed, there are also JAMs and TINNED CUCUMBERs which are only available in certain stores! It's called an own brand, and they are normally cheaper than branded equivalents, not having paid for the advertising or in some cases actually using cheaper and generic products. That's UP TO THE FRIGGING STORE (in contrast to the MS situation). The store doesn't have to tell its supplier to make its product also availabel to other stores (but it probably will, under a differnt label - all these things come from the same canneries). It's not forced on them sellerby the manufacturer. And attempts by manufacturers (notably sports shoe brands) to dictate which shops may sell their brands (in order that they may control the pricing) have been rebuffed by the courts as well. I don't know why you think that's an attempt to subvert market economics, Because it is. it's actually just a normal part of the way the market works. No it isn't. I think I'll just plonk you. Absurd and outlandish statements like that put you beyond the pale. The law has spoken on the matter - the courts have judged, and that is illegal and that is a monopoly and that is an illegal trade practice are its judgments. Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Right, they send gun-wielding thugs to use force against people. That's a lot like refusing to do business with people who won't uphold their contractual obligations. You stupid fuck! How many times do I have to tell you. There was NO contract. Just a THREAT to make me do what they wanted, to go along with their extortion racket. Getting information from you is like pulling teeth. This threat was to do what they wanted or else .. WHAT? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Well shit, how surprising that they wouldn't want to do business with you if you broke your agreements with them. I am going to summarise this then drop out. My blood pressure is at a boil. I was a computer retailer. We built custom computers. I had 8 people working for me. This was in the time prior to Win95 when IBM had a clearly technically superior solution with OS/2 to MS's Windows 3.1 I had no contract of any kind with MS. I never bought anything from them directly. I was far too small a fish. I bought the components including software through dozens of wholesale suppliers. MS threatened to put any retailer out of business who would not co-operate with them in extorting money from people who had no use for MS Windows who explicitly for various reasons did not want to buy MS windows. No, MS decided only to sell Windows to essentially Windows-only shops. To me that is no different from a popsicle manufacturer demanding I sell $200 popsicles with every machine I sold. The machines needed MS Windows no more than they needed a popsicle. You could have complied with their requests by selling computers only with Windows installed. That is, by only selling Windows PCs. All Microsoft was saying was sell only our products or don't sell our products. This is a perfectly, normal typical franchise arrangement. You can't sell Whoppers and also sell any competing burgers that aren't Burger King branded. The particular way MS threatened to put me out of business was by threatening to arm twist all wholesalers to refuse to sell MS product to me, which any retailer needed to survive in those days. Right, I get that. You owed your entire business to Microsoft. Without their products, you would have had nothing, by your own admission. The way you repay them is by trying to screw them -- attract people who come in only because you offer Windows and then say here's an OS that's better and cheaper. It was obviously quasi legal or the threats would have had paper to back them up so I could go to court now to sue the fuckers. It's perfectly legal and normal (for non-monopoly products). What do you have to agree to in order to purchase OSX wholesale? What do you have to agree to in order to purchase Solaris wholesale? Honestly, I don't understand why you're so worked up and ballistic about a perfectly typical franchisee/authorized reseller agreement. Microsoft could have refused to sell you Windows wholesale completely. That would have meant no business for you at all. In exchange for making your business possible, all they ask is you don't steer the customers you have only because of them to their competitors. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Roedy Green wrote: On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:31:41 GMT, Roedy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : I used to be a retailer of custom computers. MS used a dirty trick to compete with IBM's OS/2. They said to me as a retailer. You must buy a copy of our OS for EVERY machine you sell. The alternative is to pay full retail for the OSes. Through intimidation, MS managed to control the entire retail computer market in Vancouver BC to the extent you could not buy even the most stripped down computer without having to buy a copy of Windows with it, whether you wanted it or not. You might not want it because you bought OS/2. You might not want it because you already owned Windows from your older machine you were upgrading. You might not want it because somebody stole your machine and they did not steal all your software masters. Tell me, can you buy a new car without seats? Guess what, you have to buy those seats whether you want them or not. Try to start a business selling competing seats for a new car. Your seats may be cheaper, better, but how can you possibly compete when people have to pay for factory car seats whether they want them or not? The real reason PCs were not available without Windows was because not enough people wanted them that way to justify setting up a business to provide them that way, and Microsoft was not going to let a business parasitically use Windows to build a business that touted the advantages of competing products. (Just as Burger King corporate will not you sell Big Macs in the same store in which you sell Whoppers.) DS Don't you see how your metaphor doesn't work? It would only be fitting if Microsoft OWNED the outlet. Places which sell Whoppers are Burger King franchises, so of course they aren't going to sell Big Mac's. PC hardware stores do not belong to microsoft. There just isn't any correlation. Iain -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Peter T. Breuer wrote: That's UP TO THE FRIGGING STORE (in contrast to the MS situation). No, it's not up to the store. In all the cases I mentioned, it's the manufacturer of the product that imposes the restrictions and the manufacturer of the product is not the store owner. I don't know why you think that's an attempt to subvert market economics, Because it is. Then every franchise on the planet and every company that sells wholesale only to authorized resellers and has non-compete in their authorization terms, is subverting the market. it's actually just a normal part of the way the market works. No it isn't. Yes, it is. I think I'll just plonk you. Absurd and outlandish statements like that put you beyond the pale. The law has spoken on the matter - the courts have judged, and that is illegal and that is a monopoly and that is an illegal trade practice are its judgments. I defy you to find any court that has ruled this practice illegal for a company that does not have a monopoly. Because if they did, I'm going after Doctor's Associates and Kenmore. What do you have to agree to in order to get OSX wholesale for resale? What about Solaris? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Iain King wrote: Don't you see how your metaphor doesn't work? No. It would only be fitting if Microsoft OWNED the outlet. Huh? Places which sell Whoppers are Burger King franchises, so of course they aren't going to sell Big Mac's. Right. The Burger King corporate franchising agent only sells Whoppers wholesale to franchisees, and to be a franchisee you must agree not to sell competing products. PC hardware stores do not belong to microsoft. 91% of Burger King restaurants are independently owned and operated. Burger King doesn't own the stores either. There just isn't any correlation. Huh? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Roedy Green wrote: The particular way MS threatened to put me out of business was by threatening to arm twist all wholesalers to refuse to sell MS product to me, which any retailer needed to survive in those days. Right, I get that. You owed your entire business to Microsoft. Without their products, you would have had nothing, by your own admission. The way you repay them is by trying to screw them -- attract people who come in only because you offer Windows and then say here's an OS that's better and cheaper. Oh right. You're actually just a troll. Oh well. *plonk* Iain -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Iain King wrote: David Schwartz wrote: Roedy Green wrote: The particular way MS threatened to put me out of business was by threatening to arm twist all wholesalers to refuse to sell MS product to me, which any retailer needed to survive in those days. Right, I get that. You owed your entire business to Microsoft. Without their products, you would have had nothing, by your own admission. The way you repay them is by trying to screw them -- attract people who come in only because you offer Windows and then say here's an OS that's better and cheaper. Oh right. You're actually just a troll. Oh well. *plonk* I see, he presents the strongest possible anti-Microsoft argument (including analogizing Microsoft to people who *KILL* people) and that's fine with you. I present the strongest possible pro-Microsoft argument, and I must be a troll. Right ... If you think I'm a troll, why don't you try googling for all my posts on USENET. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Right I understand that. You could have complied simply by only selling computers with Windows preinstalled. In other words, you could have treated this the same as a demand for franchise or exclusivity if you had wanted to. It is obvious to everyone WHY MS did this, to maintain monopoly. But ignore motive for a while and see what they actually did and exactly how they intended to carry out he threat of destroying my business. What they did is clearly criminal. The hard part is proving it. Like any smart criminal who makes a threat, MS left no paper trail.. 1. it was a threat to destroy a business -- e.g vandalise tens of thousands of dollars of property. For all practical purpose they threatened to steal my business. It would be roughly the same dollar value as threatening to burn down a large house. 2. it was a threat to force me to commit a criminal act -- namely extract money from people and hand it to Microsoft and give those people nothing of value in return. That in principle is no different from demanding I go out an night and rob people and give MS the proceeds. The selected victims were those who expressed a contempt for MS products by refusing to buy or even have any need for them. 3. What MS did was theft, namely taking money from people and giving them nothing of value in return against their will. What if MS had simply made the threat without being specific about how they were going to carry it off? Would you consider MS so innocent then? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: 1. it was a threat to destroy a business -- e.g vandalise tens of thousands of dollars of property. For all practical purpose they threatened to steal my business. It would be roughly the same dollar value as threatening to burn down a large house. No, it was a threat to stop providing you with a business by allowing you to resell their products. 2. it was a threat to force me to commit a criminal act -- namely extract money from people and hand it to Microsoft and give those people nothing of value in return. That in principle is no different from demanding I go out an night and rob people and give MS the proceeds. The selected victims were those who expressed a contempt for MS products by refusing to buy or even have any need for them. If you didn't think Windows was worth paying for, don't sell it. An wholesale agreement that prohibits you from selling competing products is not at all unusual. 3. What MS did was theft, namely taking money from people and giving them nothing of value in return against their will. Then don't agree to it. All you had to do was say no. All you would have lost was the ability to do business *with* *Microsoft*. What if MS had simply made the threat without being specific about how they were going to carry it off? Would you consider MS so innocent then? If it could have been in any way taken as a threat to use force, lie to others about your company, file a lawsuit knowing it had no merit, or anything of the like, then I would not consider MS innocent at all. To my mind, that is where the line is drawn. But in this case, all it seems that Microsoft threatened to do was to prohibit you from doing business with them. And all they wanted in exchange was more of what being able to sell their products was actually worth to you. The point here is that Microsoft was offering you something of tremendous value to you. And they, in return, asked for a lot of money from you. It's really this simple -- is the money they want from you more or less than the value? If yes, you have no right to complain. If no, why ever did you agree? DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Iain King wrote: Don't you see how your metaphor doesn't work? No. It would only be fitting if Microsoft OWNED the outlet. Huh? I would think that if I set up a shop and wanted to have the word Microsoft as part of the shop name, there would be some rules dictating what products I could and could not sell, yes. Wether those rules are set forth in a law somewhere or Microsoft set them forth themselves, I would find it hard to believe that the law would prohibit them from doing so. Otherwise I could set up a shop, call it Microsoft Porsgrunn and sell machines with only Linux installed. I think Microsoft would be allowed to say No, you can't do that. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: forum
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... Forum commuication is easier, and I've just started a new forum and would like to invite all of you to sign up and post there. I'm still I don't agree. USENET is easier because you can search and post on groups.google.com. You don't have to register, you can use your favourite NNTP reader etc. -- Svenn -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Paul Rubin wrote: If the trial court determines a fact and it's upheld on appeal, it's an established legal fact regardless of whether you or Microsoft likes it. I just found this article: http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=88 I don't agree with all of it, and it contains a few minor technical errors. But it does sum up most of my view on this particular aspect of the topic. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Roedy Green wrote: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:06:16 -0700, David Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : Right I understand that. You could have complied simply by only selling computers with Windows preinstalled. In other words, you could have treated this the same as a demand for franchise or exclusivity if you had wanted to. It is obvious to everyone WHY MS did this, to maintain monopoly. But ignore motive for a while and see what they actually did and exactly how they intended to carry out he threat of destroying my business. What they did is clearly criminal. The hard part is proving it. Like any smart criminal who makes a threat, MS left no paper trail.. snip 2. it was a threat to force me to commit a criminal act -- namely extract money from people and hand it to Microsoft and give those What, specifically, is the criminal act of which you speak? -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: I would think that if I set up a shop and wanted to have the word Microsoft as part of the shop name, there would be some rules dictating what products I could and could not sell, yes. Wether those rules are set forth in a law somewhere or Microsoft set them forth themselves, I would find it hard to believe that the law would prohibit them from doing so. Otherwise I could set up a shop, call it Microsoft Porsgrunn and sell machines with only Linux installed. I think Microsoft would be allowed to say No, you can't do that. Burger King won't let you sell Whoppers or buy their burger patties wholesale no matter what you want to call your store unless you take the whole franchise deal. It's an all-or-nothing package. With very few limits, companies do get to choose how their products are branded, marketed, and sold. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
David Schwartz wrote: Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: I would think that if I set up a shop and wanted to have the word Microsoft as part of the shop name, there would be some rules dictating what products I could and could not sell, yes. Wether those rules are set forth in a law somewhere or Microsoft set them forth themselves, I would find it hard to believe that the law would prohibit them from doing so. Otherwise I could set up a shop, call it Microsoft Porsgrunn and sell machines with only Linux installed. I think Microsoft would be allowed to say No, you can't do that. Burger King won't let you sell Whoppers or buy their burger patties wholesale no matter what you want to call your store unless you take the whole franchise deal. It's an all-or-nothing package. With very few limits, companies do get to choose how their products are branded, marketed, and sold. Yes, and that's not what Microsoft has ever done. There have always been lots of shops selling Microsoft merchandise without being a Microsoft franchise in the sense Burger King shops are. That's why I still say your comparison is a bad one. -- Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen http://usinglvkblog.blogspot.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP KeyID: 0x2A42A1C2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: [python-win32] simulate DoEvents by python/wxpython
Thanks a lot!
-Original Message-
From: Mark Hammond [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 7:16 PM
To: James Hu; Python-win32@python.org; python-list@python.org
Subject: RE: [python-win32] simulate DoEvents by python/wxpython
Build 205 of win32gui does have PeekMessage etc so you can now write the
message loop in Python should the need arise - however, the various
PumpMessages and PumpWaitingMessages functions do the same thing,
but
are implemented in C. There are versions of these functions in win32gui
and
win32ui. win32ui is the MFC wrapper, and its version does do it the
MFC
way, as opposed to the vanilla Windows way that win32gui exposes. Your
code below looks like it is MFC based, so the win32ui versions may work
better for you (eg, work correctly with the MFC idle processing). If
you do
truly only need VB DoEvents style processing (which is not MFC aware),
win32gui.Pump(Waiting)Messages should be fine though.
Mark
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of James Hu
Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2005 4:10 AM
To: Python-win32@python.org; python-list@python.org
Subject: [python-win32] simulate DoEvents by python/wxpython
Hi, all gurus,
I need to simulate DoEvents in VB by python/wxPython,
My application needs to capture live image in a loop until one specific
button pressed
Multi-thread is also not very good solution, for there are big number of
data to exchange between the two threads.
Win32gui doesn't have PeekMessage.
Or translate the folllowinf codes to python?
DoEvents()
{
MSG msg;
while ( ::PeekMessage( msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_NOREMOVE ) )
{
if ( !PumpMessage( ) )
{
::PostQuitMessage( 1 );
return FALSE;
}
}
// let MFC do its idle processing
LONG lIdle = 0;
while ( OnIdle(lIdle++ ) )
;
return TRUE;
}
}
Thanks in advance,
James
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen wrote: David Schwartz wrote: Burger King won't let you sell Whoppers or buy their burger patties wholesale no matter what you want to call your store unless you take the whole franchise deal. It's an all-or-nothing package. With very few limits, companies do get to choose how their products are branded, marketed, and sold. Yes, and that's not what Microsoft has ever done. There have always been lots of shops selling Microsoft merchandise without being a Microsoft franchise in the sense Burger King shops are. Right, Microsoft imposed a lesser restriction. They allowed you to sell competing products, but charged you a fee. That's why I still say your comparison is a bad one. It shows that Microsoft's purportedly draconian restrictions are much less than restrictions that people don't even bat an eye at. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ANN: SPE 0.7.5.d released!
I'm currently packaging the new SPE. The release is a matter of minutes. Next releases (0.8.*) will focus on the Mac in honour of the fund raising for the purchase of a Mac. Read more on the homepage. New features: * UML export to bitmap (bmp, gif, jpg, pcx, png, pnm, tif, xbm, xpm), to vector drawing (eps) or to printer (pdf). * Dialog box for passing arguments and options to debugger. * Unicode support (specify encoding in source file) You can read more on the SPE news blog. It would be nice if some (experienced) Mac users would subscribe to the developers mailing list to speed up the Mac port for SPE. I expect my new Mac any moment. Stani -- http://pythonide.stani.be http://pythonide.stani.be/manual/html/manual.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
PyCon: suggestions for tutorial speakers wanted
A planned new addition to PyCon 2006 is a day of tutorials before the conference; tutorials will cost extra and give attendees a chance to take a 3-hour introduction to Python (or some other topic) before they leap into conference-going. A Call for Tutorials will be posted soon. It'll go to comp.lang.python.announce as usual, but we'll also send it directly to various people who do Python training professionally. Which leads to my request... Have you taken a Python-related course from a professional who turned out to be really good? We'd like to know about such people so that we can send them a copy of the Call for Tutorials. Please let me know, either here or in private e-mail. If you're interested in giving a tutorial, you can also express an interest in order to receive the CFT; just drop me a line and I'll save your e-mail. You should plan for a 3-hour session, interrupted by a break halfway through. Further details and requirements will be in the CFT when it appears; I'm hoping it'll go out next week. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Question: New editions of Python books?
Hi, Are any new editions in the works for either Python Essential Reference or Python in a Nutshell? I'm holding off buying one or the other existing editions, although my library overdue fines for them would have paid for them by now! Thanks, Rob -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python vs Ruby
Il 2005-10-27, Andy Leszczynski leszczynscyATnospam.yahoo.com.nospam ha scritto: How Ruby solves the problem of global interpreter lock? AFAIK Ruby does not have those kind of problems, it does not have real threads but it emulates them via software -- Lawrence http://www.oluyede.org/blog -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SOAPpy module
Il 2005-10-27, Alvin A. Delagon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: Has anyone experienced this? I'm googling like crazy these past few weeks just to find a solution to this predicament. Thank you in advance! :-) Don't know very much about it, but... did you ask on the mailing list? -- Lawrence http://www.oluyede.org/blog -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: strange problems with urllib2
When I run this code on windows it runs quickly (about a second per image) but when I run it on linux it runs very very slowly (10+ seconds per image). jdonnell I'm running a 1999 vintage 250 MHz Compaq with Debian Gnu/Linux Python 2.3.5 The following version of your code worked very well here # --- #!/usr/bin/env python ''' NewsGroup comp.lang.python Date . 2005-10-26 Posted_By jdonnell Edited_By Stanley C. Kitching ''' import sys import time import urllib2 this_module = sys.argv[ 0 ] beg = time.time() f = urllib2.urlopen( 'http://site.heavenlytreasures.com/images/e6115.jpg' ) outfile = open( 'e6115.jpg' , 'wb' ) outfile.write( f.read() ) outfile.close() f.close() end = time.time() dt = end - beg print print '%s' % this_module print print 'Image saved %.4f Seconds ' % dt print # --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] : ~/python $ ./urllib2_image_get.py ./urllib2_image_get.py Image saved 0.3973 Seconds -- Stanley C. Kitching Human Being Phoenix, Arizona == Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News== http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups = East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption = -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
time conversion
Is there an easy to convert following hour notation hh:mm to decimals? For instance 2 hours and 30 minutes as 2:30 to 2,50 I don't really know where to search for this kind of conversion. Thanks, Benedict -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Help: Quick way to test if value lies within a list of lists of ranges?
Scenario: = Using PyGame in particular, I am trying to write an application that will run a scripted timeline of events, eg at 5.5 seconds, play xxx.mp3 and put the image of a ball on screen, at 7.8 seconds move the ball up and down. At this point, I hear you say 'Oh, like Flash'. Yes, well... Like Flash, but I don't want to take this app in the same direction as Macromedia took Flash, nor do I (ever) want the two to be compatible. One particular need is for the timeline to be quickly traversable. If I want to go to time=239.4 seconds, I'd like it to go there pretty much painlessly and hopefully with one call. (Same with play, reverse and pause really) I also want it to play for a long duration, with lots of different items (images, audio, etc.) Let me be a little more specific: sprite(a) - (onscreen during) 2 - 10 secs, 20 - 50 secs sprite(b) - (onscreen during) 15 - 30 secs sprite(c) - (onscreen during) 42 - 50 secs I need a quick way to rattle off a list of sprites that should be on screen at a given time. Needless to say the number of sprites will be variable, and might even change unpredictably in game. E.G. onscreen(time = 8.8 secs): return [sprite(a)] onscreen(time = 44.134 secs): return [sprite(a), sprite(c)] onscreen(time = 28 secs): return [sprite(a), sprite(b)] (NB Anything from 10 - 200 sprites would be normal intended usage, each set -up with a list of start,stop times.) Any suggestions on a clever way to do this? I don't like the idea of looping through 100+ sprites and test them each an arbitary number of times every update. Is this just something unavoidable which should be written in C for speed and included with SWIG or something similar? Ben (Anti-Zealotry ward) :0: * ^Subject:.*Re: Microsoft Hatred FAQ | gzip junk-archive.gz IMO, We all have our personal experience or beliefs as to how MS operates. Petitioning MEP's/Senators will accomplish more than arguing on a Python mailing list. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: xml.dom.minidom - parseString - How to avoid ExpatError?
Thanks, John. That was all very helpful. It looks like one option for me would be to put cdata[ around my text with all the weird characters. Otherwise running it through on of the SAX utilities before parsing might work. I wonder if the sax utilities would give me a performance hit. I have 6000 xml files to parse at 100KB each. -Greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: syntax question - if 1:print 'a';else:print 'b'
So much for writing my whole program on one line :-( j/k -GregOn 10/26/05, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gregory Piñero wrote: Any idea why I can't say: if 1:print 'a';else:print 'b' all in one line like that?because ; can only be used to separate simple statements, not the different parts in a compound statement.see the grammar for details:http://docs.python.org/ref/grammar.txt(look for compound_stmt, suite, statement, etc) /F--http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list-- Gregory PiñeroChief Innovation OfficerBlended Technologies(www.blendedtechnologies.com) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
sys.exit call from pythonw.exe gives error
I wrote a python GUI with tkInter and installed it on a windows machine with the .pyw extension, so it will be executed from pythonw.exe instead of python.exe, since I didn't want the console window to appear. My application exits with a call to sys.exit. However, when this call is executed under pythonw.exe I get an error popup window with the following messeage: start quote Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library Runtime Error! Program: C:\Python24\pythonw.exe This application has requested the Runtime to terminate in an unusual way. Please contact the application support team for more information end quote What am I doint wrong here? Jo -- Dr Joachim Schambach The University of Texas at Austin Department of Physics 1 University Station C1600 Austin, Texas 78712-0264, USA Phone: (512) 471-1303; FAX: (814) 295-5111 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: syntax question - if 1:print 'a';else:print 'b'
Gregory Piñero wrote: So much for writing my whole program on one line :-( Why bother with one liners? The number of meaningful lines and pages a writer produces is a measure for his writer-ship -- my old Literature professor -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: handling ExpatError exception raised from ElementTree.XML() method
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: NameError: name 'ExpatError' is not defined I'm guessing that I need to define/describe the ExpatError exception class and then refer to that defined exception class after the keyword 'except' and before the ':', but I cannot figure out how to do that. You just need to know how to reference ExpatError yourself. Doing a grep on the site-packages directory revealed that the most likely location of the ExpatError class is xml.parsers.expat. So, first you need to import that package: import xml.parsers.expat Then, you can refer to the class as an attribute of that package. Alternatively... from xml.parsers.expat import ExpatError ...lets you use the name directly. I think that it can be useful when making a library to make common exception classes attributes of certain principal classes/objects, in order to simplify this kind of situation and to avoid the need to find the originating module of some exception or other. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: time conversion
flupke wrote: Is there an easy to convert following hour notation hh:mm to decimals? For instance 2 hours and 30 minutes as 2:30 to 2,50 I don't really know where to search for this kind of conversion. Thanks, Benedict I found a way. Not sure if it's the best: time = 2:3 factor = 100.0/60.0 time_parts = time.split(:) minutes = int(float(time_parts[1]) * factor) if ( len(str(minutes)) == 1 ): minutes *= 10 # to get 50 instead of 5 time_new = %s,%.02s % (time_parts[0],minutes) print %s - %s % (time,time_new) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: syntax question - if 1:print 'a';else:print 'b'
On 27/10/05, Gregory Piñero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So much for writing my whole program on one line :-( http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/pyone/ But you didn't hear it from me, OK? ;-) -- Cheers, Simon B, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help: Quick way to test if value lies within a list of lists of ranges?
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:48:53 +0100 (BST), Ben O'Steen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scenario: = Using PyGame in particular, I am trying to write an application that will run a scripted timeline of events, eg at 5.5 seconds, play xxx.mp3 and put the image of a ball on screen, at 7.8 seconds move the ball up and down. At this point, I hear you say 'Oh, like Flash'. [snip - how do I make it go fast?] I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions for fast algorithms to solve this problem, but before you do, let me suggest that this is actually a premature optimization. I bet there are much more interesting problems to be solved in this project, ones that you could work on and test, even while doing something as unbelievable slow as looping over 100 or so objects. ;) You can always optimize later, after you've identified that this operation is actually a bottleneck. Jean-Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: time conversion
flupke wrote: Is there an easy to convert following hour notation hh:mm to decimals? For instance 2 hours and 30 minutes as 2:30 to 2,50 I don't really know where to search for this kind of conversion. you mean like timestamp = 2:30 hour, minute = timestamp.split(:) print int(hour) + int(minute) / 60.0 2.5 ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
OpenSSL in Python
Hi to all, What do I have to install to get the following code work (Win XP, Python 2.4.2) from OpenSSL import SSL import config KEY_FILE = config.SSL_KEY_FILE CERT_FILE = config.SSL_CERT_FILE -- I've been looking for OpenSSL for python. I found pyOpenSSL, but it requires the OpenSSL library, which I only found on http://www.openssl.org/, but don't know how to install. Other thing is the config module... I'm lost. Someone knows? :-S My main purpose is to enable xml-rpc server over an SSL connection. Thanks Daniel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
