Re: I thought I'd 'got' globals but...
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:41:36 -0400, Luis M. González <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: . . > OK, so I should include the global only if I plan to modify it. > Otherwise, I don't need to include it. Am I right? > Correct. Globals are always available to read from. You need to declare them if you want to modify them in another scope. Like nate, I also tend to declare them all the time if I am going to use them, just for clarity. M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Eclipse IDE question
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:21:32 -0400, seerhut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > kilnhead wrote: >> I am trying to use eclipse for python development. Is it possible to >> run a python script without having to name/setup a configuration? Can >> eclipse be set up so that "run" loads the code into the interpreter and >> goes? I don't want to create a new run config every time I want to run >> a script. >> > try pydev , a plugin for eclipse I'm fairly certain the OP is already doing that... As far as I know (I haven't used pydev in awhile) you need a launch configuration for each script. I do know you can run a script easily and have the launch created for you just by right-clicking the file and saying Run As > Python (I think). Here is what the FAQ says: How do I run a module from within eclipse using PyDev (either Python or Jython)? To do that, the easiest way is going to the Run menu (Run->Run As->Python or Jython). If it is not available in your current eclipse perspective, you can enable it by going to window->customize perspective->commands and checking the "Lauch" item (in this way, you can go only with the keyboard). Another way to run a module is right clicking the module in the navigator and choosing python->run (when a .py file is selected). Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: how do you pronounce 'tuple'?
John Salerno wrote: > Yes, silly question, but it keeps me up at night. :) > > I know it comes from the suffix -tuple, which makes me think it's > pronounced as 'toople', but I've seen (at m-w.com) that the first > pronunciation option is 'tuhple', so I wasn't sure. Maybe it's both, but > which is most prevalent? > > Thanks! Now time to go back to reading the chapter on tuples... I'm not sure, but I think it is pronounced "ménage à trois". M. ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: > Markus Wankus wrote: > >> Well I happen to agree whole-heartedly with Tim on that one. I can't >> stand trying to navigate some of these Wiki-trying-to-be-website pages. >> It is impossible to find anything on most of them (notice I didn't say >> all..there are exceptions). It seems like they cater to people who: > > Nobody's expecting the *user* to navigate wiki pages. It's a tool for the > content > providers. And they don't have to navigate anything either; an "edit" link > (or sym- > bol) in a convenient location on each page is all you need. > > Ooops. I misread the thread there. Sorry 'bout that. I can't comment on using a Wiki as a CMS for collaborative web development as I have never tried to use it as such. M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
If you build it, they will come. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: > Tim Parkin wrote: > >> How about designing a website and showing us what you think would be a >> good idea? Or suggesting some way of managing all of the content and >> building the system. > > I think I just did that: > > the easiest way to get there would be to use a MoinMoin instance to main- > tain the content, and a separate renderer to generate static pages for the > main site (possibly using Cheetah or Kid as template languages). > > to which you responded > > A wiki is not a website and to try to shoehorn a wiki into a content > manage- > ment system is not a good final goal. > > which is an interesting thing to say at a time when "wikipedia" has > joined "google" and "blog" as the internet things that everyone has > heard about... > Well I happen to agree whole-heartedly with Tim on that one. I can't stand trying to navigate some of these Wiki-trying-to-be-website pages. It is impossible to find anything on most of them (notice I didn't say all..there are exceptions). It seems like they cater to people who: a) Get some sort of sick pleasure out of searching webpages by manually constructing regular expressions. b) Love the fact that every other word is a link and end up in a 3 hour link-clinking session until they have visited every link. Navigating a Wiki to me feels more like trying to find the proverbial needle in a haystack, or perhaps it is more like painting a wall by flinging paint at it with a spoon. But maybe that's just me. I sometimes have a compulsion for methodically checking everything in a sane order. That's probably just my code review skills, or dungeon-crawling instincts kicking in. ;o) M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Python.org website ?
Well I think the new site is definitely a step in the right direction. The old site is definitely "utilitarian" and is quite functional, but not "sexy". And I think the whole point is to (hopefully) have a good first impression of the language and community by "impressing" (if you will) new users with a cool website. So, while I agree that the beta site does have a definite "nineties corporate" feel to it, I think it is better than the old site and would like to throw some kudos to whoever spent the time on it. I'm sure it wasn't a small job. At any rate, opinions will always differ. You are always going to get the people who want a cool flash-based animated site with 3D stereo surround sound, and the other end of the spectrum where you will be flamed if you do anything more than hand-code the html, on Unix machines only, using Vim or Emacs, ensuring it has a gray or neutral beige background, *and* uses the default font giving that classic 1981 "university professor who refuses to use anything except Netscape Navigator" feel. I use Eclipse a lot in my day-job and there are debates like this all the time whenever a change is made in the UI, but usually sanity (and quite nice-looking software, BTW) are the result. FWIW - they have just re-done the L&F of their website as well. I must admit I like it (eclipse.org), but others do not - I'm sure we'll hear from them shortly - ;-). To each his own. I think it would definitely be cool to use a Python-based web app for the site. Plone is alright, but has a definite Plone approach that can be hard to shoe-horn your stuff into (although I think these guys have done an *awesome* job on their site: http://www.schooltool.org/). Zope is flexible but a beast to learn. And, well...there are just so many others. ;o) I'm still looking, myself... Markus. Tim Parkin wrote: > Leeuw van der, Tim wrote: > >> I think that in general, I don't like the fact that links to >> high-profile users are featured so prominently. That row of pictures >> there looks good to me 'as such' but linking there to 'success stories' >> feels, dunno, perhaps a bit cheesy to me. (That might be just my dutch >> upbringing) >> I would certainly want to see such links somewhere on the front page, >> just not so prominently. >> >> > Possibly so... however in my experience, selling python to people is > made a lot easier by being able to say 'look these guys are using it'. > This may not help sell it to programmers, but as a businessman trying to > sell my programming services, it's exceptionally important. > >>> btw do you have a problem with using nasa or astrazeneca as example >>> >>> >> high >> >> >>> profile users? >>> >>> >> As I said, I don't like them. We're not a commercial company trying to >> promote itself to potential buyers. But that's too a large degree a >> matter of taste. >> >> > Well I'd have to disagree with yout on one point.. 'We' may not > be a commercial company (when you talk about python as a singular unit) > but as python developers, we should be in the process of trying to > 'sell' python wherever we can. Because we aren't a commercial company, > our only 'sales' channels are the website and the developers/consultants > that use python. (I'm talking about selling in the terms of 'promoting' > or trying to persuade someone that using python is a good thing). > >> I do actually think, though, that if the Python website *is* going to >> feature such big names with such prominence, some sort of approval from >> these organizations should be requested? That they don't mind being used >> a a Python reference story? >> >> > The approval is already there (see pythonology success stories). > >> About what could be there... Link to the even calender, or >> recent/upcoming event.. That is one to stay, I think. >> I think it would be good to have a link there too development >> environments that can be used for Python: editors, debuggers, IDEs / IDE >> extenstions, etc >> >> >> > It's difficult to summarise this in a single image. The XP image was > intended as a 'catch all' for the development environment. A different > image and title would probably achieve better results but coming up with > one or two words to sumarise that list is quite difficult. > >> A third item could perhaps be a link to the Python Package Index -- >> another thing that Python developers are likely to need. >> >> >> > The home page isn't intended to target existing python users.. and the > home page photos are mostly targetted at the sort of people that respond > well to photos. It's a dilemma that the home page has to serve two > masters, however if we have a 'developer home page' which can be > dedicated to development issues, news, planetpython links, package > libraries etc, we would have a single page that developers could bookmark. > > The only alternative was to create a separate 'marketing python' website > but it would just get ignored, esp
Re: Zope3 Examples?
Gerhard Häring wrote: > Markus Wankus wrote: >> [...] Thanks for the reply - maybe I'll give it another shot. I'm >> currently demoing Snakelets. Quite a turn in the opposite direction, >> but small and super-easy to get going with. [...] > > I also found Snakelets a pleasure to use and chose it for implementing a > clan homepage in early 2005. > > I'm still very interested in the Python/Web/RDBMS field and tried to > follow the developments since then. I didn't actually build anything > real, only played a little bit with CherryPy and the megaframeworks > built upon, Subway and TurboGears. > > If I had to choose again, I'd use TurboGears, despite the fact that it's > very young and still developing. > > -- Gerhard > Good to know. I have watched the screencast for Turbogears but haven't tried it yet. There seemed to be a lot of "magic" methods going on there, and you could tell the guy doing the screencast had done that more than once. ;o) I guess once you run through the manual it would all make sense. I figure I'll give Snakelets a good go first. Is your Snakelets-based page up and accessible somewhere? Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Zope3 Examples?
Jean-François Doyon wrote: > Markus, > > Zope 3 is mature as a framework, but does not provide much "out of the > box". It's a basis upon which to build applications like Plone ... If > you are looking for something that provides Plone-like features on top > of Zope 3, it doesn't exist (yet). > > Personally, I'm waiting for this: http://www.z3lab.org/ > But it'll be a while yet! > Yes - I was watching the screencasts (well, animations) on this and it looks incredible! I can't wait to play with something like this. > Zope 3 is brilliant, but complex, and quite the departure from Zope 2, > so it'll take a while for the take up to occur. > > What might work better for you is to use Zope 2 + the CMF, without > Plone. Plone can be fairly heavy and rigid, the CMF alone might give > you the tools you need. I use Zope 2 with success and good performance > on a hig traffic website, I wouldn't discount it just because of your > first impression ... There are many tweaks available that will > considerably improve performance for production systems. > > Cheers, > J.F. > Thanks for the reply - maybe I'll give it another shot. I'm currently demoing Snakelets. Quite a turn in the opposite direction, but small and super-easy to get going with. I think once this project gets a few good webapps under its belt (and maybe I can contribute there!) this could be a nice solution for many people. At least a good starting point for someone like me who knows a good deal about Python and nothing about web frameworks. Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Zope3 Examples?
bruno modulix wrote: > Markus Wankus wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone know of any good Zope3 examples? > > Ask the Zope mailing-list. Zope is a world by itself, and is usually not > discussed here. > > BTW, Zope3 is a really really new thing, so you won't find much existing > apps. When it's said that it offers 'the best from Plone', (s/plone/cmf/ > IMHO), it's about framework/system architecture, not OOTB application. > Will do - thanks for the info. Yeah - I was wondering if that's what 'the best from Plone' meant after I installed it - however there seem to be a lot of Plone people with their backs up over Zope3 moving in on their territory. If it doesn't do all the cool GUI stuff (yet) I would think it could only be good for Plone to move to Zope3 as well. It would only make it faster and more lightweight. Ah well - off to the Zope mailing list. FWIW - I shuddered at all the different Python web frameworks out there and I didn't want to get into "coding" a site right away. However - it looked like I didn't have much choice so I figured if I was going to do it I may as well go whole hog and jump into the uber-framework that is Zope. Perhaps I should give my head a shake and try out a nice, simple alternative first. I have a feeling I'll be trying out Snakelets. I really like the idea of a self-contained webserver that is super-lightweight. Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Zope3 Examples?
Hi All, Does anyone know of any good Zope3 examples? I'm new to Zope and I just want to start with a simple website, and later move on to a more complex site with interactive calendar, obligatory blog/wiki/buzzword-of-the-day-thingy, etc. I started by installing Zope2 and Plone but it was very slow, and quite frankly I didn't want to end up looking like "another Plone site". I did a bunch of surfing and found some suggestions along the lines that Zope3 was basically ready for primetime, and would combine the best of Plone and Zope2.. and be faster. So, naturally, I removed Zope2 and Plone and quickly installed Zope3! ;o) Well, it is definitely faster. The problem is, it doesn't look like there are any applications (if I may use that term) for it yet. I'm starting in on the docs now, and I'll probably break down and pay through the nose for the book, but I was just wondering if I perhaps made a bad choice and should go back to Zope2/Plone - or will it all be worth the effort? I found the very cool SchoolBell project, and I hope to delve into the source for that as a learning experience, but I must admit I was hoping for a more Plone-type experience with Zope3 out of the box. It looks to me like that sort of thing just isn't there yet. That's fine if that's the case - I can wait (I have a lot of reading and learning to do anyway). I guess I'm just wondering if there are any other resources out there I haven't found in my Googling yet. I also found this nice-looking TODO sample (which looks like the best place to start, frankly) which I plan on using as a starting point as well (http://toulouse.amber.org/archives/simple_todo_application/index.html). Thanks, Markus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Thoughts on Guido's ITC audio interview
Markus Wankus wrote: > > My opinion - If you aren't willing to try something new, or have an > aversion to it in the first place, nothing we can say will change your > mind. Correction... *There are some people, who* if they aren't willing to try something new, or have an aversion to it in the first place, nothing we can say will change their mind. M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Thoughts on Guido's ITC audio interview
Stephen Toledo-Brown wrote: > Tony Meyer wrote: > >>> Everyone complaining about Eclipse in this thread needs to go try >>> 3.1. The interface is much much much more responsive. >> >> >> >> The problem with Eclipse, IMO, is Java. I've tried 3.1 on a WinXP >> machine >> and, like just about any Java program, it's incredibly slow and a real >> pain >> to use. On a (similarly spec'd) Mac OS X Tiger machine, it runs nice and >> smoothly and is reasonably nice to use. I'd happily recommend that Mac >> users try Eclipse, but never a Windows (Python) programmer. > > > I've not tried Mac, but under both Windows and Linux on x86, I find > Eclipse (3.0) is slow with less than 1.25 GB of RAM, reasonably fast > with 1.5GB or more. Processor speed and disk speed don't seem to be > anywhere near as important. I guess we all have different views on "slow". I have been using it to develop a full IDE in Eclipse for over 2 years (since 2.1), and I can't understand where you guys are coming from. I self-host (run a development Eclipse SDK, plus a Runtime - that's 2 Eclipse's running...sometimes 3) all day every day and it does admittedly get "slow", but only down when I am doing serious debugging (Eclipse debugging the internals of Eclipse). I only have 512MB RAM, and a wimpy 1.3 GHz Athlon on Windows. And BTW - if you used Eclipse seriously, you would know that Mac and Linux are inherently slower than Windows due to the SWT GUI library lagging performance-wise on those platforms (especially GTK on Linux), so I have no idea how you can resonably say that you would *never* recommend a Windows programmer to try Eclipse. Those types of performance claims are simply not true (beyond a 10 minute evaluation), and it's just plain silly to say Eclipse is not usable on Windows. My opinion - If you aren't willing to try something new, or have an aversion to it in the first place, nothing we can say will change your mind. As for me - I'll continue to enjoy the benefits of Eclipse's tools - especially with PyDev coming along the way it is. The ultimate would be for something like Jython or JPype to come to fruition so Eclipse plugins could be written in Python. Now *that* would be something. Actually, the *ultimate* would be to implement the equivalent of Eclipse in Python, but that is a pipe dream... ;o) Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Thoughts on Guido's ITC audio interview
Stephen Kellett wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Markus Wankus > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >> Have you ever tried anything that provides real, usable refactoring >> like Eclipse does with Java? I guarantee if you used it more than a >> few times your view would most likely change. > > > I was forced to use Eclipse recently. Dreadful. I really disliked it. I > never got as far as wanting to refactor things. I couldn't wait to stop > using it. > >> The fact is, code evolves. You simply cannot write high-quality >> software in one pass. > > > Total agreement. My point is that productivity gains from refactoring > tools are the least of your worries. Hiring good staff that know how to > write, test and debug software is very much more important than the > amount of time a refactoring tool will save. > > Stephen Well, I have been using it for 2 years now, and while I still prefer Python "big-time" to Java, I have really grown to love Eclipse. To each his own I guess. I agree you shouldn't bank on productivity gains from refactoring tools. And I agree they are definitely no kind of replacement for good people. I just think it is silly not to benefit from them. M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Thoughts on Guido's ITC audio interview
Stephen Kellett wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Simon > Brunning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >> Eclipse's refactorings are a great boon, I find. Refectoring is never >> *fully* automatic, of course, but the ability to, for example, select >> a chunk of code and have it extracted into a separate method with all >> needed arguments and the return value worked out for you is very >> helpful. All you have to do is give the new method a name. And this >> sort of thing can certainly improve readability. > > > This is not an attach on you Simon, but if people are relying on that > type of thing for increases in software productivity they are hiring the > wrong people. > > Stephen Have you ever tried anything that provides real, usable refactoring like Eclipse does with Java? I guarantee if you used it more than a few times your view would most likely change. The fact is, code evolves. You simply cannot write high-quality software in one pass. Good refactoring tools save time, and therefore money. I sure wouldn't hire anyone who thought otherwise... Markus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python IDE like NetBeans/Delphi IDE
More specifically, check out the pydev plugin for Eclipse. pydev.sourceforge.net M. Larry Bates wrote: Take a look at ActiveState: http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePythonFamily/?_x=1 or for something more general: http://www.eclipse.org/ Larry Bates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi ! I search for an IDE that working in Windows, and knows these functions: A.) Automatic name searching/showing/extending on classes with keypressing (like Netbeans, or Delphi Ctrl+Space). B.) Debugging: breakpoints, step on lines (code), watch variables. Or A and B both. Please help me. Thanx: ft -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
Nick Vargish wrote: Ilias Lazaridis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Guido is the one, who should care by time about the status of the python-community. That one crashed my parser. Sounds like a new Ministry song - "Guido Crashed my Parser". Could be the sequel to "Jesus Built My Hot Rod". -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
George Sakkis wrote: "Ilias Lazaridis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Nick Vargish wrote: You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments, but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over. [...] The discussion is over. At least the in-topic one. Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not understand writings and all this unproductive garbage. The Essence is this one, as stated before: [huge copy paste of previous post] The Essence is irrelevant. - - - All your thread are belong to us. - - - For great justice! ;o) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Markus Wankus wrote: Google his name - he has been banned from Netbeans and Eclipse (and Hibernate, and others...) for good reason. Can you imagine how much of a Troll you need to be to *actually* get "banned" from the newsgroups of open source projects such as those? have Pythoneers ever "banned" anyone from a public forum? it's not like we haven't seen trolls and crackpots before, you know. I know - which is why it is even more amazing he can get banned from other open source groups similarly tolerant as this one... M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
OH GOD! I cannot believe Ilias has shown up here... Google his name - he has been banned from Netbeans and Eclipse (and Hibernate, and others...) for good reason. Can you imagine how much of a Troll you need to be to *actually* get "banned" from the newsgroups of open source projects such as those? I realize your admirable intentions and the fact that you are simply trying to help (the beauty of this community), but I beg you all now...PLEASE...do not feed this troll. Any responses to his posts will simply snowball into the biggest waste of time and energy this newsgroup has ever seen.I'll let Google fill in the rest of the picture. You can decide whether or not you want to respond to his posts. Markus. Jeremy Bowers wrote: On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:26:08 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: My question is essentially: How many of those constructs are already supported by python (and the surrounding open-source-projects): http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html This post is hard to follow, but I'm going to assume this is the core question, as it is labelled as such. The first thing that leaps to mind is that you need to play with Python for a bit to get a full analysis of it. Due to the nature of Python, some of the things you have in that list don't really apply. The most obvious example of this is "code generation": Assuming you mean what I think you mean, the sort of thing you have in the C++ or Java world where you click a couple of boxes, push "next" a few times, and have several hundred kilobytes of impenetrable source code pop out as your project's "framework", it doesn't generally apply. In Python, you can actually write frameworks that can be made to do useful things in a small handful of lines. For a good example of that, I'd recommend the Twisted tutorial: http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/howto/tutorial/index . In Python, if a framework makes you write reams of boilerplate... it's probably because someone just came from Java and isn't thinking in Python yet. :-) Code generation in Python is generally a non-starter. (Few rare counterexamples, but it's nothing like the Necessary Crutch it is in the C++ world.) Generally, every line in that Twisted tutorial, even in the final program, is *doing something*, not satisfying the framework with necessary boilerplate. As for the rest of your requirements, you have specified your "technology stack" in terms of *goals*, not capabilities, so for quite a lot of them, there is no answer except, "Yes, Python can do that, and generally easier than most anything else". For instance, "Use of metadata within the design (on text level [code file])" can mean a thousand things. For what it's worth, Python tends to make it so easy I do it all the time, but for any given way you mean it, I can't promise there exists a pre-rolled framework for you. So I can only speak generally. Given your list, you may find that Python is weak in the "graphical programming" department; drop-and-drop GUI generation isn't as well-tuned as VB. (I, for one, consider that development methodology toxic and actively dangerous, but I can understand why you miss it.) Skipping down to your evaluation sequence: * Create a class: Well, I'll show you this one: class Something: pass There, a class. * Simple GUI: You may wish to check out Boa Constructor, as the closest thing to the GUI generator you probably want. There are at least 3 major viable GUI toolkits for Python and several other minor (but still capable) ones. * Embedded DBs: I don't know, Google for your embedded DB name + Python. Failing that, there are several ways to wrap your embedded DB such that a Python program can use it. * Web GUI: There are more Python web frameworks than you can shake a stick at, and I don't mean "some guys hacked together templating system" either; there are a lot of very mature systems out there, expressing a lot of different philosophies. Given some of your other requirements, for a web-based application I'd recommend examining Zope. * Deployment: I don't generally have enough problems with this to be worth thinking about. I don't know what the state of the remote debugging is on Python; Google "remote debugging Python". * For your "complex updates", I see two distinct things there; half of the depend on the database, not Python. For the other half, it depends on if you mean "while the program is still running". If so, they are challenging. If not, they are trivial. * I'd recommend adding "testability" to your stack, and refer you to the "unittest" module; others can suggest their preferred testing modules, but I tend to stick with that as the general framework is available in a lot of languages that I use. If by evolutive development you are including the ideas behind "agile software development" (hard to tell if you mean that, or a community open to change*) Based on what I see here, I have two basic comments. First, yes, Python is probably as close as you are going to get in an e
Re: IDLE history, Python IDE, and Interactive Python with Vim
I highly recommend trying pyDev. 0.9 just came out, and I find 0.85 very usable and quite cool. There is nice debug support, and context-sensitive code completion as well as real-time validation of your code. This is an exciting project with a bright future in my opinion. Markus. Ashot wrote: This is sort of both Python and Vim related (which is why I've posted to both newsgroups). Python related: -- I have been frustrated for quite some time with a lack of a history command in IDLE (in fact with IDLE in general). Often I'll develop new code at the command line, testing each line as I go. Currently I have to copy and paste, removing outputs and the ">>>" at each line. Is it perhaps possible to make some kind of hack to do this (dump a command history)? Idle in general isn't that great IMO, so I was wondering also if there are better alternatives out there? What do people use mostly? I've tried something called pyCrust, but this too didn't have history and some other things I was looking for. On a more general note, although the agility and simplicity of Python make programming tools like an IDE less necessary, it still seems that Python is lacking in this departement. The PyDev plug-in for Eclipse seems like good step in this direction, although I haven't tried it yet. Does anyone have any experience with this, or perhaps can point me to other tools. Vim related: -- Ideally, it would be nice to have a command mapped to a keystroke that can append the last executed command to a file. Even better would be a system that would integrate the file editing and interactive command line tool more seamlessly. Something along the lines of a debugger + file editor + command line utility, where file editor = vim. I know that vim has a utility for running python commands from its command prompt, but I have had a hard time getting this to work in windows and haven't explored it. Has anyone seen/tried a system along these lines, perhaps incorporating the python debugger (pdb)? I can see something that will run the file you are editing in vim up to the cursor or a mark with a set_trace at the line you are editing. Any info is appreciated, thanks. -- Ashot Petrosian University of Texas at Austin, Computer Sciences -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
