Re: taking python enterprise level?...
On Mar 1, 6:32 am, simn_stv wrote: ... > > > You have to follow some tricks: > > > 1) have the web server serve static pages directly and set the pragma > > cache expire to one month > > 2) cache all pages that do not have forms for at least few minutes > > 3) avoid database joins > > but this would probably be to the detriment of my database design, > which is a no-no as far as im concerned. The way the tables would be > structured requires 'joins' when querying the db; or could you > elaborate a little?? Joins are the bottle neck of most web app that relay on relational databases. That is why non-relational databases such as Google App Engine, CouchDB, MongoDB do not even support Joins. You have to try to minimize joins as much as possible by using tricks such as de- normalization and caching. > > 4) use a server with at least 512KB Ram. > > hmmm...!, still thinking about what you mean by this statement also. I meant 512MB. The point is you need a lot of ram because you want to run multiple python instances, cache in ram as much as possible and also allow the database to buffer in ram as much as possible. You will see Ram usage tends to spike when you have lots of concurrent requests. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: taking python enterprise level?...
100,000 hits a day is not a low. I get that some day on my web server without problem and without one request dropped. Most frameworks web2py, Django, Pylons can handle that kind of load since Python is not the bottle neck. You have to follow some tricks: 1) have the web server serve static pages directly and set the pragma cache expire to one month 2) cache all pages that do not have forms for at least few minutes 3) avoid database joins 4) use a server with at least 512KB Ram. 5) if you pages are large, use gzip compression If you develop your app with the web2py framework, you always have the option to deploy on the Google App Engine. If you can live with their constraints you should have no scalability problems. Massimo On Feb 25, 4:26 am, simn_stv wrote: > hello people, i have been reading posts on this group for quite some > time now and many, if not all (actually not all!), seem quite > interesting. > i plan to build an application, a network based application that i > estimate (and seriously hope) would get as many as 100, 000 hits a day > (hehe,...my dad always told me to 'AIM HIGH' ;0), not some 'facebook' > or anything like it, its mainly for a financial transactions which > gets pretty busy... > so my question is this would anyone have anything that would make > python a little less of a serious candidate (cos it already is) and > the options may be to use some other languages (maybe java, C (oh > God))...i am into a bit of php and building API's in php would not be > the hard part, what i am concerned about is scalability and > efficiency, well, as far as the 'core' is concerned. > > would python be able to manage giving me a solid 'core' and will i be > able to use python provide any API i would like to implement?... > > im sorry if my subject was not as clear as probably should be!. > i guess this should be the best place to ask this sort of thing, hope > im so right. > > Thanks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python xmlrpc client with ssl client certificates and standard modules
If it is a client problem than web2py will be on help.
If your server is written already you may be able to use it with the
ssl cherrypy wsgi server (the one that web2py uses) and you do not
need web2py at all.
Massimo
On Jan 4, 3:38 am, News123 wrote:
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> I'll look at web2py.
>
> However web2py seems to address the xmlrpc server (at least in your
> example). The xmlrpc server application exists alerady and requires a
> client certificate.
>
> The client example doesn't seem to be using a certificate.
>
> So I'll be reading a little into web2py.
>
> bye
>
> N
>
> mdipierro wrote:
> > xmlrpc acts at the application layer and ssl at the transport layer so
> > they can inter operate easily as long as you do not use the
> > certificate to authenticate the client but only validate the server
> > and encrypt data (which you can also do but it is more complicated)
>
> > One option for you is to use web2py which include an xmlrpc server
> > that uses a wsgi ssl enabled web server.
>
> > Here is how:
>
> > 1) Install web2py
> > 2) Visithttp://127.0.0.1:8000/adminand create a new application from
> > the web based IDE
> > 3) create your web service for example, in a controller default.py
>
> > �...@service.xmlrpc
> > def add(a,b): return int(a)+int(b)
>
> > 4) Restart web2py with
>
> > python web2py.py -a ADMIN_PASSWD -c SSL_CERTIFICATE -k
> > SSL_PRIVATE_KEY -i 0.0.0.0 -p 443
>
> > 5) You can now access the service from any Python program:
>
> > >>> import xmlrpclib
> > >>> server_url = 'https://myserver:443/yourapp/default/call/
> > xmlrpc'
> > >>> server = xmlrpclib.Server(server_url)
> > >>> print server.add(3,4)
> > 7
>
> > Hope this helps.
>
> > On Jan 3, 8:12 pm, News123 wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> >> I was googling fot quite some time and was not really succesfull.
>
> >> I found one solution, which I will try soon.
> >> It ishttp://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~danken/xmlrpc-ssl.html
> >> (found
> >> inhttp://hamakor.org.il/pipermail/python-il/2008-February/29.html)
>
> >> This will probably work, but it requires the module M2Crypto.
>
> >> In order to avoid installing M2Crypto an all hosts that want to run the
> >> script I wondered, whether there is no other solution.
>
> >> I can do xmlrpc over ssl WITHOUT certificates with following code:
>
> >> import xmlrpclib
> >> server_url = 'https://myserver'
> >> server = xmlrpclib.Server(server_url);
>
> >> and I can perform a https get request WITH certificates with below snippet:
>
> >> import httplib
> >> conn = httplib.HTTPSConnection(
> >> HOSTNAME,
> >> key_file = KEYFILE,
> >> cert_file = CERTFILE
> >> )
> >> conn.putrequest('GET', '/')
> >> conn.endheaders()
> >> response = conn.getresponse()
> >> print response.read()
>
> >> I'm just lost of how to 'combine' both.
>
> >> Thanks in advance for any suggestions / hints
>
> >> N
>
>
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python xmlrpc client with ssl client certificates and standard modules
xmlrpc acts at the application layer and ssl at the transport layer so
they can inter operate easily as long as you do not use the
certificate to authenticate the client but only validate the server
and encrypt data (which you can also do but it is more complicated)
One option for you is to use web2py which include an xmlrpc server
that uses a wsgi ssl enabled web server.
Here is how:
1) Install web2py
2) Visit http://127.0.0.1:8000/admin and create a new application from
the web based IDE
3) create your web service for example, in a controller default.py
@service.xmlrpc
def add(a,b): return int(a)+int(b)
4) Restart web2py with
python web2py.py -a ADMIN_PASSWD -c SSL_CERTIFICATE -k
SSL_PRIVATE_KEY -i 0.0.0.0 -p 443
5) You can now access the service from any Python program:
>>> import xmlrpclib
>>> server_url = 'https://myserver:443/yourapp/default/call/
xmlrpc'
>>> server = xmlrpclib.Server(server_url)
>>> print server.add(3,4)
7
Hope this helps.
On Jan 3, 8:12 pm, News123 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was googling fot quite some time and was not really succesfull.
>
> I found one solution, which I will try soon.
> It ishttp://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~danken/xmlrpc-ssl.html
> (found inhttp://hamakor.org.il/pipermail/python-il/2008-February/29.html)
>
> This will probably work, but it requires the module M2Crypto.
>
> In order to avoid installing M2Crypto an all hosts that want to run the
> script I wondered, whether there is no other solution.
>
> I can do xmlrpc over ssl WITHOUT certificates with following code:
>
> import xmlrpclib
> server_url = 'https://myserver'
> server = xmlrpclib.Server(server_url);
>
> and I can perform a https get request WITH certificates with below snippet:
>
> import httplib
> conn = httplib.HTTPSConnection(
> HOSTNAME,
> key_file = KEYFILE,
> cert_file = CERTFILE
> )
> conn.putrequest('GET', '/')
> conn.endheaders()
> response = conn.getresponse()
> print response.read()
>
> I'm just lost of how to 'combine' both.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions / hints
>
> N
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What is the best data structure for a very simple spreadsheet?
Perhaps this can be useful: http://www.web2py.com/examples/spreadsheet The code is in a single file with not dependencies and it does not require web2py to run: http://code.google.com/p/web2py/source/browse/gluon/contrib/spreadsheet.py Here is a sample controller that shows you how to embed the spreadsheet in web page: http://code.google.com/p/web2py/source/browse/applications/examples/controllers/spreadsheet.py Massimo On Jan 3, 5:27 am, vsoler wrote: > Hi, > > Not sure this is the best group to post, but I cannot think of any > other. > > My application would contain a limited set of "cells" represented by > the instances of a Cell class: > > class Cell: > ... > > A1=Cell(7) > A2=Cell(2*A1) > A3=Cell(3*A1+A2) > A4=Cell(A3*4) > > Of course, A1 = 7, A2 = 14, A3 = 35 and A4 = 140 > > Now, I somehow want to be able to show a dependency tree > > 1 level dependency trees > A1: None > A2: A1 > A3: A1, A2 > A4: A3 > > All levels dependency trees > > A1: None > A2: A1 > A3: A1, A2 > A4: A3, A2, A1 > > Leaf + values dependency trees: > > A1: 7 > A2: A1=7, 2 > A3: 3, A1=7, 2 > A4: 3, A1=7, 2, 4 > > What I'd like to know is: > > 1) what are, in your opinion, the basic elements of the Cell class? > 2) Do I need a parser to evaluate the formulas like “3*A1+A2”? Can you > recommend one library that already contains one? > 3) Do I need a tree data structure to represent my data? would the > tree be an attribute of the class instance? > > I imagine a lot can be said on these questions. What I am looking for > is some hints that help me get out of where I am now. > > Any help is highly appreciated. > > Vicente Soler -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Recommendation for small, fast, Python based web server
This is a new wsgi web server implemented in a single file. http://code.google.com/p/web2py/source/browse/gluon/sneaky.py I could use some help with testing. Here is a version for Python 3.0 http://code.google.com/p/web2py/source/browse/gluon/sneaky.py Massimo On Dec 25, 12:38 pm, a...@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote: > In article , > Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > >Apparently you have debugged your speed issue so I suppose you don't have > >performance problems anymore. Do note, however, that Python is generally > >not as fast as C -- especially for low-level stuff -- and a Python Web > >server will probably serve around 10x less requests per second than a C > >Web server like Apache (this will still give you hundreds of simple > >requests per second on a modern machine). > > For static pages or dynamic pages? Once you get into dynamic pages, I > sincerely doubt that the smaller Apache overhead makes lots of > difference. > -- > Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > Looking back over the years, after I learned Python I realized that I > never really had enjoyed programming before. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
Some may find useful to compare: - A Crash Course on Django http://articles.sitepoint.com/article/django-crash-course - A Crash Course on Web2py http://www.web2py.com/AlterEgo/default/show/253 They basically describe the same app and the steps to built it. Sorry I had not time to make screenshots. I personally think it is great that we can learn from each other from this kind of comparison and we can both improve. I also think that stressing the similarities and the differences will help prospective users understand the underlying design patterns. Massimo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please Help Publicize PyCon
There is huge difference between what Steve is asking and spam. Spam is "Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups". Steve is asking us help him to identify communities that we may be part of and that we believe may be interested in the PyCon conference and inform them. Not every communication on the internet is spam. Massimo On Dec 21, 11:31 am, John Nagle wrote: > Steve Holden, Chairman, PSF wrote:> Hi,everyone. > > > This year I hope all readers of this list will assist me in crass > > commercial promotion of next year's PyCon. > ... > > One particularly effective way for you prodigious email producers to > > assist is to something to your signature (as you will see I have done). > > ... > > This guy wants people to spam for him to promote his $300 conference. > > Don't support spammers. Boycott PyCon. > > John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
> > On Dec 19, 12:42 am, AppRe Godeck wrote: > >> Just curious if anybody prefers web2py over django, and visa versa. I > >> know it's been discussed on a flame war level a lot. I am looking for a > >> more intellectual reasoning behind using one or the other. > > > Of course I am the most biased person in the world on this topic > > Indeed !-) > > - In web2py models and controllers are not modules. They are not > > imported. They are executed. > > I assume you mean "executed in an environment defined by the framework"... yes > > This means you do not need to import > > basic web2py symbols. They are already defined in the environment that > > executes the models and controllers > > Ok. As far as I'm concerned : show stops here. It is your choice but, why? Exec/eval is only true distinctive feature of an interpreted language vs a compiled language. > >(like in Rails). This also means > > you do not need to restart the web server when you edit your app. > > The dev server that comes with Django do the autorestart thing. And you > *don't* "edit yoour app" directly on the production server, do you ? Unfortunately it has happened. In my experience the distinction between development and production is fiction. > > - You have a web based IDE with editor, > > Why should I care ? I have a way better development environment on my > own box. I only use emacs. I do not use the web based IDE much myself but I found it really helps in learning how to use the framework. > > some conflict resolution, > > Mercurial integration, > > What if use something else than mercurial ? You can use any version control you want, the same way you would in Django. web2py itself is version controlled in both bazaar and mercurial. The only think about mercurial is that, if you have it installed, the web based IDE lets you commit at the click on a . > > ticketing system, > > ...doesn't belong to the framework. FWIW, I already have a ticketing > system that's language/techno agnostic, thanks. Perhaps we are not talking about the same thing. if an error occurs in a web2py application and I want: 1) notify the user, 2) assign the user a ticket number; 3) log the error in the framework; 4) allow administrator to browse past error logs; I think this belongs to the framework else it gets clunky. Web2py tickets are out of the box and always on. > > - The DAL supports transactions. It means it will create and/or ALTER > > tables for you as your model changes. > > Err... how does schema changes relates to transactions ??? Type "migrations" not "transactions" sorry. > Now FWIW, when my schema do change, the create/alter table code is > usually the most trivial part - there are quite a few other things to > do, that no framework will ever be abale to guess. IOW, you *do* have to > write a migration script anyway. No. We do not have migration scripts. It is nothing like Rails. You just edit a model and, voila', database is migrated. Nothing to type. Nothing to click on. (you can disable it) I respect you choosing Django but it looks like you have never tried web2py. > > - The DAL has partial support for some legacy databases that do not > > have an 'id' auto increment primary key. > > Django's ORM has full support for tables that don't use an "auto_id" key. web2py too has support for legacy databases for tables without an auto_id but not yet for all database back-ends. > > Anyway, I think both system are great. Spend 15 minutes (no more) with > > each to make up your mind, and stick with it. > > Once again, while doing a quick dummy test app can give you a first > general "feel" of the tool, it means nothing wrt/ complex real-world > applications. While this may be true as a general statement could you explain which feature you find in Django that is not in web2py and that is is crytical for building large web applications? Could you provide a coding example of such feature? This is an honest question because it can help us make web2py better. I have personally learned a lot from Django and thank the Django developers for their work, I would be happy to learn more. Massimo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
People seem to think that because web2py has a default for almost everything (part of its design) than you must use the default. - There is a web based IDE but you *can* use the shell instead (like you do in Django) - There are migrations but you *can* disable then (and it works like Django that does not do migrations) - There are default views for every action but you *can* make your own - There is a default route to every action but you *can* create your own routes.py, equivalent to Django urls.py - There is a default for form layout but you *can* customize them in multiple ways - There is a default widget for every field but you *can* change it or define your own - There is a default validator for every field but you *can* change it or create your own - It comes with a default layout.html but you can user any other html/ css layout or make your own - It comes with jQuery but you *can* use any other javascript library - It default to email/password login but you *can* use other authentication methods (gmail, twitter, openid, rpx, cas, ldap). - etc. The only things that web2py does not let you customize are things that have security implications (like how sessions and uploads are handled). On Dec 20, 3:09 pm, Baron wrote: > > If all > > web2py offers is default views, then it may be good for proof of concept > > projects, however I can't see in my right mind, proofing an application, > > and then turning around to write it in django because more than the > > defaults is needed. > > You *can* customize web2py views ... > > > Why does web2py have classes that represent HTML? I can't see ever > > needing to write VIEW code in my controller, since thats what views are > > for. > > I use these in my views when a HTML tag has multiple dynamic > properties because it looks more neat. > > I came to web2py a year back after writing applications in many other > frameworks (Turbogears / Symonfy / Rails / Django) and find myself > more productive with web2py. > So as others have said - try both. Write a small application in both > to see which suits you. > > Richard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
The concept of distributed transaction does not make sense on GAE because there is only one datastore. It supports regular transactions on GAE to the extent that GAE supports them but you have to use the GAE run_in_transaction API explictely. It does support distributed transactions with multiple database connection to postgresq, mysql and/or firebird. I think this is related to the topic because it is a distinctive feature of web2py. Massimo On Dec 20, 1:32 pm, Lacrima wrote: > On Dec 20, 1:35 am, mdipierro wrote: > > > Errata. I said "The dal supports transactions" where I meant "the dal > > supports migrations". > > Of course it also supports "transactions" as well as "distributed > > transactions". > > Sorry, if this is not related to this topic. > Does web2py support distributed transactions with Google App Engine > Datastore? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Moving from PHP to Python. Is it Possible
About you point 3). You may want to look into:
http://www.web2py.com/php
It translates a PHP page into a web2py template. It is crude and
primitive and fails in some cases. Moreover a literal translation is
not what you really want since you want to follow a more MVC design.
Moreover it will not always maps PHP functions into valid Python/
web2py ones. Yet it may be a useful as a learning tool. I made it to
convert Drupal templates into web2py layouts.
Massimo
On Dec 11, 4:26 am, Sancar Saran wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> I'm 35 yrs old self learner and who do daily PHP coding for food more than a
> decade.
>
> After ten years of PHP coding I'm getting bored and give try for learning new
> things.
>
> After 3 days of crawling google, diving in python and cursing, now I can show
> something on my linux/apache/mod_wsgi setup.
>
> And i'm struck on something.
>
> I had CMS design. It works with PHP very well. And I want to transfer my
> design in Python.
>
> My design depends on a Global Array. A huge array which store everything about
> requested Web page for a final rendering.
>
> In PHP accessing globals is easy. You may do direct access or use class
> something like ZEND Registry.
>
> I'm looking for similar facility in python world.
>
> Also I have couple of questions.
>
> 1-) Can I create Global (read/write access anywhere from my code) Multi
> dimensional, associative array (or hash) and store any kind of variable type.
>
> 2-) Is there any error trigger for mod_wsgi. When something go bad I god
> Internal Server error. Looking for error log was't nice. Is there any way to
> shows errors in the web page ?
>
> 3-) Any documents books sites about helping moving from php to python
>
> 4-) In php we had someting like
> ob_start(); // start Output buffering
> require('hede.php'); // include phtml similar to psp. mixed language and html
> (to avoiding string replacement (or marker based) html templates)
> $var = ob_get_clean(); // get rendered output and use anywhere
>
> can find a similar abilities in Python ?
>
> 5-) is there any Python documentation based on examples. When I give up about
> to finding php's $_REQUEST or $_SERVER equivalents in python some demo code
> in
> Twisted docs are much helpful than any other words. Me and my kind already
> have problem with English language. Example code much more helpful than full
> academic description.
>
> Thanks for support and patience for this old noob.
>
> Regards...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
> Why does web2py have classes that represent HTML? I can't see ever > needing to write VIEW code in my controller, since thats what views are > for. You do not need to use but if, for example, you want to build a menu recursively, having a server-side presentation of the DOM allows to do it without string manipulation. It is safer and less error prone. Anyway, it is not something you must use. Lots of the features are optional. Like the web based IDE. If you do not like it, you can use the shell like you use Django. > It seems that even though web2py is fast, supports lots of features, the > fact that in the end it gets in the way of doing what you want is it's > downfall. Django, even though requiring more "ground work", this ground > work becomes a solid foundation on which to build your application on. What do you mean by "gets in the way"? Could you provide an example? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
Errata 2. Before people jump on me. I said "copyright" but I meant "trademark". Of course web2py is GPL2 so everybody can copy and modify it. The license has an exception that basically treats the compiled web2py as freeware. The license does not extend to apps that require web2py. They can be distributed under any license you like, included closed source and bundled with the web2py binary. On Dec 19, 5:32 pm, mdipierro wrote: > On Dec 19, 12:42 am, AppRe Godeck wrote: > > > Just curious if anybody prefers web2py over django, and visa versa. I > > know it's been discussed on a flame war level a lot. I am looking for a > > more intellectual reasoning behind using one or the other. > > Of course I am the most biased person in the world on this topic but > perhaps you want to hear my bias. > > A little bit of history... I thought a Django course at DePaul > University and built a CMS for the United Nations in Django. I loved > it. Then I also learned RoR. I found RoR more intuitive and better for > rapid prototyping. I found Django much faster and more solid. I > decided to build a proof of concept system that was somewhat in > between Django and Rails with focus on 3 features: 1) easy to start > with (no installation, no configuration, web based IDE, web based > testing, debugging, and database interface); 2) enforce good practice > (MVC, postbacks); 3) secure (escape all output, talk to database via > DAL to present injections, server-side cookies with uuid session keys, > role based access control with pluggable login methods, regex > validation for all input including URLs). > > Originally it was a proof of concept, mostly suitable for teaching. > Then lots of people helped to make it better and turn it into a > production system. Now he had more than 50 contributors and a more > than 20 companies that provide support. > > There are some distinctive features of web2py vs Django. Some love > them, some hate hate them (mostly people who did not try them): > > - We promise backward compatibility. I do not accept patches that > break it. It has been backward compatible for three years and I will > enforce the copyright, if necessary, in order to ensure it for the > future. > > - In web2py models and controllers are not modules. They are not > imported. They are executed. This means you do not need to import > basic web2py symbols. They are already defined in the environment that > executes the models and controllers (like in Rails). This also means > you do not need to restart the web server when you edit your app. You > can import additional modules and you can define modules if you like. > > - You have a web based IDE with editor, some conflict resolution, > Mercurial integration, ticketing system, web-based testing and > debugging. > > - The Database Abstraction Layer (DAL) is closed to SQL than Dango ORM > is. This means it does less for you (in particular about many 2 many) > but it is more flaxible when it comes to complex joins, aggregates and > nested selects. > > - The DAL supports out of the box SQLite, MySQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, > Oracle, FireBird, FireBase, DB2, Informix, Ingres, and the Google App > Engine (except for joins and multi-entity transactions). We plan > support for Sybase and MongoDB within one month. > > - The DAL supports transactions. It means it will create and/or ALTER > tables for you as your model changes. This can be disabled. > > - The DAL has partial support for some legacy databases that do not > have an 'id' auto increment primary key. > > - It has a plugin and a component systems (here is an old > video:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692the video says "experimental" but this is > now stable in trunk, although not very well documented). > > - both systems have a web based database interface (Django calls it > "admin", web2py calls it "appadmin, not to be confused with web2py > "admin", the IDE). The Django one is more polished, customizable and > designed to be exposed to users. The web2py one is raw and designed > for the administrator. It is not customizable. Because it is designed > for the administrator and requires administrator login it allows > arbitrary DAL code to be executed. It can be disabled. > > Here is the last app I built with it:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 > running on GAE here:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 > > Herehttp://www.vimeo.com/6507384you can see a video in which I > rewrite the Django polls tutorial in web2py. You will get an idea of > some of the differences. > > Anyway, I think both system are great. Spend 15 minutes (no more) with > each to make up your mind, and stick with it. > > Massimo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
Errata. I said "The dal supports transactions" where I meant "the dal supports migrations". Of course it also supports "transactions" as well as "distributed transactions". On Dec 19, 5:32 pm, mdipierro wrote: > On Dec 19, 12:42 am, AppRe Godeck wrote: > > > Just curious if anybody prefers web2py over django, and visa versa. I > > know it's been discussed on a flame war level a lot. I am looking for a > > more intellectual reasoning behind using one or the other. > > Of course I am the most biased person in the world on this topic but > perhaps you want to hear my bias. > > A little bit of history... I thought a Django course at DePaul > University and built a CMS for the United Nations in Django. I loved > it. Then I also learned RoR. I found RoR more intuitive and better for > rapid prototyping. I found Django much faster and more solid. I > decided to build a proof of concept system that was somewhat in > between Django and Rails with focus on 3 features: 1) easy to start > with (no installation, no configuration, web based IDE, web based > testing, debugging, and database interface); 2) enforce good practice > (MVC, postbacks); 3) secure (escape all output, talk to database via > DAL to present injections, server-side cookies with uuid session keys, > role based access control with pluggable login methods, regex > validation for all input including URLs). > > Originally it was a proof of concept, mostly suitable for teaching. > Then lots of people helped to make it better and turn it into a > production system. Now he had more than 50 contributors and a more > than 20 companies that provide support. > > There are some distinctive features of web2py vs Django. Some love > them, some hate hate them (mostly people who did not try them): > > - We promise backward compatibility. I do not accept patches that > break it. It has been backward compatible for three years and I will > enforce the copyright, if necessary, in order to ensure it for the > future. > > - In web2py models and controllers are not modules. They are not > imported. They are executed. This means you do not need to import > basic web2py symbols. They are already defined in the environment that > executes the models and controllers (like in Rails). This also means > you do not need to restart the web server when you edit your app. You > can import additional modules and you can define modules if you like. > > - You have a web based IDE with editor, some conflict resolution, > Mercurial integration, ticketing system, web-based testing and > debugging. > > - The Database Abstraction Layer (DAL) is closed to SQL than Dango ORM > is. This means it does less for you (in particular about many 2 many) > but it is more flaxible when it comes to complex joins, aggregates and > nested selects. > > - The DAL supports out of the box SQLite, MySQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, > Oracle, FireBird, FireBase, DB2, Informix, Ingres, and the Google App > Engine (except for joins and multi-entity transactions). We plan > support for Sybase and MongoDB within one month. > > - The DAL supports transactions. It means it will create and/or ALTER > tables for you as your model changes. This can be disabled. > > - The DAL has partial support for some legacy databases that do not > have an 'id' auto increment primary key. > > - It has a plugin and a component systems (here is an old > video:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692the video says "experimental" but this is > now stable in trunk, although not very well documented). > > - both systems have a web based database interface (Django calls it > "admin", web2py calls it "appadmin, not to be confused with web2py > "admin", the IDE). The Django one is more polished, customizable and > designed to be exposed to users. The web2py one is raw and designed > for the administrator. It is not customizable. Because it is designed > for the administrator and requires administrator login it allows > arbitrary DAL code to be executed. It can be disabled. > > Here is the last app I built with it:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 > running on GAE here:http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 > > Herehttp://www.vimeo.com/6507384you can see a video in which I > rewrite the Django polls tutorial in web2py. You will get an idea of > some of the differences. > > Anyway, I think both system are great. Spend 15 minutes (no more) with > each to make up your mind, and stick with it. > > Massimo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Anybody use web2py?
On Dec 19, 12:42 am, AppRe Godeck wrote: > Just curious if anybody prefers web2py over django, and visa versa. I > know it's been discussed on a flame war level a lot. I am looking for a > more intellectual reasoning behind using one or the other. Of course I am the most biased person in the world on this topic but perhaps you want to hear my bias. A little bit of history... I thought a Django course at DePaul University and built a CMS for the United Nations in Django. I loved it. Then I also learned RoR. I found RoR more intuitive and better for rapid prototyping. I found Django much faster and more solid. I decided to build a proof of concept system that was somewhat in between Django and Rails with focus on 3 features: 1) easy to start with (no installation, no configuration, web based IDE, web based testing, debugging, and database interface); 2) enforce good practice (MVC, postbacks); 3) secure (escape all output, talk to database via DAL to present injections, server-side cookies with uuid session keys, role based access control with pluggable login methods, regex validation for all input including URLs). Originally it was a proof of concept, mostly suitable for teaching. Then lots of people helped to make it better and turn it into a production system. Now he had more than 50 contributors and a more than 20 companies that provide support. There are some distinctive features of web2py vs Django. Some love them, some hate hate them (mostly people who did not try them): - We promise backward compatibility. I do not accept patches that break it. It has been backward compatible for three years and I will enforce the copyright, if necessary, in order to ensure it for the future. - In web2py models and controllers are not modules. They are not imported. They are executed. This means you do not need to import basic web2py symbols. They are already defined in the environment that executes the models and controllers (like in Rails). This also means you do not need to restart the web server when you edit your app. You can import additional modules and you can define modules if you like. - You have a web based IDE with editor, some conflict resolution, Mercurial integration, ticketing system, web-based testing and debugging. - The Database Abstraction Layer (DAL) is closed to SQL than Dango ORM is. This means it does less for you (in particular about many 2 many) but it is more flaxible when it comes to complex joins, aggregates and nested selects. - The DAL supports out of the box SQLite, MySQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, Oracle, FireBird, FireBase, DB2, Informix, Ingres, and the Google App Engine (except for joins and multi-entity transactions). We plan support for Sybase and MongoDB within one month. - The DAL supports transactions. It means it will create and/or ALTER tables for you as your model changes. This can be disabled. - The DAL has partial support for some legacy databases that do not have an 'id' auto increment primary key. - It has a plugin and a component systems (here is an old video: http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 the video says "experimental" but this is now stable in trunk, although not very well documented). - both systems have a web based database interface (Django calls it "admin", web2py calls it "appadmin, not to be confused with web2py "admin", the IDE). The Django one is more polished, customizable and designed to be exposed to users. The web2py one is raw and designed for the administrator. It is not customizable. Because it is designed for the administrator and requires administrator login it allows arbitrary DAL code to be executed. It can be disabled. Here is the last app I built with it: http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 running on GAE here: http://www.vimeo.com/7182692 Here http://www.vimeo.com/6507384 you can see a video in which I rewrite the Django polls tutorial in web2py. You will get an idea of some of the differences. Anyway, I think both system are great. Spend 15 minutes (no more) with each to make up your mind, and stick with it. Massimo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How decoupled are the Python frameworks?
Interesting post. I would like to make some comments about design decisions that went into web2py: - For each app Model/View/Controllers/Language Files/Static Files/ Modules/Cron Tasks are stored in separated folders - You can code only the models (no controllers and no view) and you get a fully functional admin interface - You can develop only controllers (with or without models but no views) and you get a fully working application with workflow - There is a convention for dispatching. You can override it with routes. - There is no metadata in the framework. URLs are mapped into an app (within the web2py instance), into a controller file, and into a function (action) in that controller file. - You can have multiple apps within a web2py instance (they can be installed, uninstalled, packaged, compiled without restarting web2py) - You can have multiple model files, multiple controllers and multiple views. You can override the mapping between controllers and default views. - You can group files (models/controllers/views/static files) functionally into plugins. Plugins can be packaged separately from the app and applied to multiple apps. - Plugins expose components (i.e. reusable objects that can be embedded in a page and talk to their own controllers via ajax). - Plugin components are coded as any other web2py models/controller/ view but the form submission is automatically trapped (transparently to the user) and executed via ajax so that, if the component contains a form only the component is reloaded upon submissions of the form. - web2py supports FORM, SQLFORM, SQLFORM.factory and CRUD for automtical generation of forms (from a model or other structure). All web2py forms execute postbacks and modify themselves to report error messages. A form is comprised of widgets that contain validators. There is a default layout but it can be customized in the view by allocating widgets or individual html tags. - You can put doctests in actions and we provide a web interface for testing the app online. - It completely abstracts the database backend (we support 10 different database backends including Google App Engine) thus make the code very portable. - It authomatically writes sql for queries, for create table and alter table. -Web2py provides a Role Based Access Control mechanism with plugguble login components so that you can authenticate using multiple mechanism including Gmail and Twitter for example. Specifically about you concerns:- better scalability - easy to test => web2py is very easy to test because of the web based interface to doctests - easy to maintain => In web2py "Do not repeat yourself" trumps "explicit if better than implicit". This means code is very compact. - easy to re-use code for different applications => using plugins - easy to migrate/port => because of DAL Massimo On Dec 7, 4:38 pm, shocks wrote: > Hi > > I'm getting back into Python after a long break. I've been developing > large enterprise apps solely with Adobe Flex (ActionScript) for the > past couple years. During that time I've used a number of 'MVC' > frameworks to glue the bits together - among them Cairngorm, a > modified implementation of Cairngorm using the Presentation Model > pattern, PureMVC, Mate (an IOC container but with an MVC > implementation) and Parsley (IOC but you have to roll-you-own MVC). > During that time I've been in large teams (30 Flex + 30 Java) to small > teams (2 Flex + 1 Java). The motivation of these frameworks is the > decouple your concerns, allowing your apps to be more scalable, easier > to test, and supposedly easier to maintain. Some do the decoupling > better job than others, but there is also the question of "how > decoupled is your code from the framework"? It's all well and good > having something clever working behind the scenes wiring and routing > everything together, but I wonder where this leaves the code base if > the framework, which was selected at the beginning of the project, is > replaced with something else months or years later (i.e. the framework > just doesn't scale as expected, the community involvement dies and > it's no longer maintained properly, etc). I've seen it happen and > I've been experienced the pain of detangling massive amounts of code > which is full of framework specific imports, methods and boilerplate > code. And then there's updating the unit tests! > > My question is how good are the current crop of Python frameworks? > I've used Django twice in production and didn't like that much. The > implementation is Django specific for starters. I've picked up Pylons > and I'm trying that out. I'm not sure how well it fares? I do feel a > bit uneasy about the code generation that some of the Python > frameworks do. Pylons creates something like 20 files for a > 'helloworld'. It does do some great things out of the box, but I > wonder where that leaves your own code. After spending 3-6 months on > your Pylons webapp, how easy is it to move to somethin
Re: Frameworks
One more clarification to avoid confusion. Django has "admin" and it
is great. Web2py also has something called "admin" but that is not
apples to apples.
The closest thing to Django "admin" in web2py is called "appadmin" (it
comes with it).
For example consider the following complete program:
db=DAL('sqlite://test.sqlite)
db.define_table('person',Field('name'))
appadmin is a controller that comes with each web2py app and provides
a web based interface to the database, that can be customized at the
app level, and that inherits the layout of the app.
The Django "admin" can be customized more and it is designed for
users. It is very sleek. The web2py "appadmin" is designed for the
administrator not users, and allows you to insert DAL queries
directly.
web2py also has something called "admin" which has nothing to do with
Django "admin". It is instead a web based IDE including web based
tools for installing apps remotely, packaging apps, editing apps,
debugging, running doctests, etc. via the web interface.
Massimo
On Oct 19, 4:54 pm, Emmanuel Surleau
wrote:
> > Django : very strong integration, excellent documentation and support,
> > huge community, really easy to get started with. And possibly a bit more
> > mature and stable...
>
> One strong point in favour of Django: it follows Python's philosophy of
> "batteries included", and features a large array of plugins. There are also
> numerous other add-ons created by the community.
>
> Also, it has a pretty great administration interface.
>
> It still manages to retain flexibility, but you're basically stuck with
> Django's ORM (which is OK for simple things) and templating language (which is
> OK as long as you don't need custom tags).
>
> > Pylons : more loosely coupled (imply: less integration), based on
> > "standard" components - which is both a blessing and a curse, specially
> > wrt/ documentation -, requires a good knowledge of Python and the HTTP
> > protocol to get started with. Very powerful and flexible but this comes
> > with a price...
>
> Haven't used Pylons, but the documentation has improved the last few years
> with the Pylons book (http://pylonsbook.com/en/1.0/), while still not being up
> to par with Django's. It has also a methodology for deployment, which Django
> decidedly lacks.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Emm
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Frameworks
On Oct 19, 9:01 am, flebber wrote:
> In short it seems to me that Django and Web2py include more "magic" in
> assisting oneself to create you web/application, whilst Pylons and
> Werkzueg leave more control in the users hands hopefully leading to
> greater expression and power.
it depends on how one defines "magic". web2py provides a DAL, not an
ORM. DAL expressions translate one-to-one into SQL statements in the
appropriate dialect (or GQL on GAE), no more, without additional
superstructure. The basic API are
db.tablename.insert(filename=value)
db(query).select(...)
db(query).update(...)
db(query).delete()
db(query).count()
an example of query is
query=(db.tablename.fieldname=='value')|(db.tablename.fieldname.like
('A%'))
which translates into
WEHERE tablename.fieldname = 'value' OR tablename.fieldname LIKE 'A
%'
with the appropriate escaping for security or course.
Of course you can more complex expressions for nested selects, joins,
left joins, aggregates, etc. but the general principle stands. Here is
an example:
db().select(db.table1.field1,db.table1.field2.sum
(),groupby=db.table1.field1)
and another (which does a nested select, a join and a left join):
db((db.table1.field1.belongs(db(db.table2.field2.id>0)._select
(db.table2.field3)))&
(db.table1.field4==db.table3.field5)).select
(
db.table1.ALL,db.table2.field6,
left=db.table4.on
(db.table4.field6==db.table1.field7),
orderby=db.table1.field8)
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: New Web2Py framework SLASHES development time...
Hi Paul, yes, the model designer is the one from Ondras. We modified it so that it generates DAL (Database Abstraction Layer) code instead of SQL and it is a work in progress. Technically it is not pat of web2py and in fact it is not distributed with it. It is just one of the many web2py apps. You can find more on http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/appliances Massimo On Sep 22, 5:48 am, Paul Boddie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 22 Sep, 04:49, Steve Shephed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > http://www.web2py.comWeb2Py- Python Framework is the newest > > kid on the block for Python frameworks. > > I'm not going to dwell on the merits of web2py, I'm afraid... > > > It has a lot of features that simply are not there in other > > frameworks. Even Ruby!. You can design database models graphically > > online. > > I had a closer look at the model designer, and the client-side magic > seems to originate from this project: > > http://ondras.zarovi.cz/sql/ > > It looks quite fancy, especially since it all seems to be happening in > the browser. Thanks for indirectly bringing this to our attention! ;-) > > Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Gluon 1.15 is out
Hello everybody,
Gluon 1.15 is out. This is a free open source framework for agile
development of secure database driven web applications, written in
Python, programmable in Python. Stable API and supported since October
1st 2007.
http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu
http://www.vimeo.com/428474 (video tutorial)
http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/appliances (free plugin apps for gluon with
source)
Some features:
no installation (it is a single executable), no configuration
files,
no shell commands, all development, deployment and
maintenance is
done via a web interface
built-in ticketing system; if your app has a bug it is logged, the
user is notified and ticket is issued so that the administrator can
retrieve the event via the administrative interface.
Example of a COMPLETE working gluon app:
-- model: db.py
db=SQLDB('sqlite://file.db')
db.define_table('images',SQLField('file','upload'))
-- controller: default.py -
def index():
form=SQLFORM(db.images)
if form.accepts(request.vars,session): response.flash='image
uploaded'
return dict(form=form)
---
what does it do?
it creates the database, creates the table (if it
does not exists) or
alters the table (if description does not match),
creates a web page
called index with an upload form for the image.
When the visitor
clicks submit, the file is uploaded, renamed in a
safe way, stored in
a file serverside, the name is stored in the
database, and the user is
a notified. It also creates a session and
handles it via a cookie. It also writes a web based administrative
interface for the newly created database.
Merry Christmas.
Massimo
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yet another comparison of Python Web Frameworks
Since you are starting a new project you may want to look into something new and different http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
