Re: Perl's documentation come of age
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:36:47 -0600, rumours say that Mahesh Padmanabhan [EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip lot of drivel While I don't like to feed the trolls, I do find his posts amusing. He is like a spoilt child seeking attention. s/is like/is/ -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Dear Paul, please stop spamming us. The Corinthians -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
request for Google groups enhancement: Report Abuse button should have 4 choices: - Spam - Illegal Content - Xah - other ;-} Christos Georgiou wrote: On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:36:47 -0600, rumours say that Mahesh Padmanabhan [EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip lot of drivel While I don't like to feed the trolls, I do find his posts amusing. He is like a spoilt child seeking attention. s/is like/is/ -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Dear Paul, please stop spamming us. The Corinthians -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip lot of drivel While I don't like to feed the trolls, I do find his posts amusing. He is like a spoilt child seeking attention. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Other Implementations [was: Re: Perl's documentation come of age]
Mike wrote: Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Looks like I'm having a bad week w/these URLs, because now I'm not able to access http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com . I was hoping to get at the archives to see if I can glean more info before I asked too many questions... It's back up... Speaking of other implementations, I am reminded that Jython has been receiving some [PSF-sponsored] attention recently, and wanted to persuade as many as possible to give it a try. It's a couple of months since Brian Zimmer made the release, but I am pretty sure that the developers on Jython would be grateful for more feedback. http://sourceforge.net/projects/jython/ regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike wrote: Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Hugunin's keynote speech at this year's PyCon was accompanied by a projection if his interactive interpreter session, and I know I wasn't alone in finding this a convincing example of Microsoft's (well, Jim's, really) full integration of Python into the .net framework. Steve Holden +44 150 684nin 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org Which .Net integreation technology are you speaking of? BTW, PyCon.org seems to be down (at least not reachable from here at the moment.) thanks I spoke of IronPython, which generates CLR code. I believe pycon.org will shortly re-emerge as a redirect to a subdirectory of the python.org domain, but I'm no longer in charge, so this may not be accurate. RSN ... Glad to see this cool project is still up and running. I downloaded it and ran some examples without incident. Looks like I'm having a bad week w/these URLs, because now I'm not able to access http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com . I was hoping to get at the archives to see if I can glean more info before I asked too many questions... Is there any way at the moment to get all the niceities w.r.t. development w/I.P.? (E.g., code completion, source debugging, etc.) I assume a Visual Studio plug-in would be natural, but I'm not sure it's around yet. thanks, m regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Looks like I'm having a bad week w/these URLs, because now I'm not able to access http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com . I was hoping to get at the archives to see if I can glean more info before I asked too many questions... It's back up... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Mike wrote: Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Hugunin's keynote speech at this year's PyCon was accompanied by a projection if his interactive interpreter session, and I know I wasn't alone in finding this a convincing example of Microsoft's (well, Jim's, really) full integration of Python into the .net framework. Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org Which .Net integreation technology are you speaking of? BTW, PyCon.org seems to be down (at least not reachable from here at the moment.) thanks I spoke of IronPython, which generates CLR code. I believe pycon.org will shortly re-emerge as a redirect to a subdirectory of the python.org domain, but I'm no longer in charge, so this may not be accurate. RSN ... regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Måns Rullgård [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This guy deserves two ascii trolls: ___ /| /| | | ||__|| | Please do | / O O\__ NOT | / \ feed the| / \ \ trolls | / _\ \ __| /|\\ \ || / | | | |\/ || / \|_|_|/ \__|| / / \|| || / | | /|| --| | | |// | --| * _| |_|_|_| | \-/ *-- _--\ _ \ // | / _ \\ _ // |/ * / \_ /- | - | | * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c +---+ .:\:\:/:/:. | PLEASE DO NOT |:.:\:\:/:/:.: | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=: | | '=(\ 9 9 /)=' | Thank you, | ( (_) ) | Management | /`-vvv-'\ +---+ / \ | |@@@ / /|,|\ \ | |@@@ /_// /^\ \\_\ @x@@x@| | |/ WW( ( ) )WW \/| |\| __\,,\ /,,/__ \||/ | | | jgs (__Y__) /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ == And the Original Troll: s sS. S, $Ss, SSs$$SSs, s SSs$$s,Ss. SSs$$$$ss sSSs$$SSS$$sSSS. s sSSSs$$S$$sSSs$s, ss$$SSS$$sSS$$SS, s sSSs$$SSS$$sSSSs$$SSs, sSs$$s$$SSS$$sSS$$s sSSs$$SS$$SS$$sSSs$$SS, s$$$SSS$$sSSS$$SSs, sSs$$Ss$$s SSS$$SSS$$SS, .SSSs$$SSs$$SSS, S$$SS$$S, .Ss$$SSSs$$SSS $SSS$$SSS$$SSS .s$$Ss$$S$' SSs$$SS$$SSS$s s$$S$S$$sS SSs$$SSS$$sSSS `SSSs$$SSS$$sS s$$SSS$$sSSS' `SSs$$SSS$$s Ss$$SSSSS$$sSS' `SSS%,;mnv%%;;;%%vnm;,%SS' `SSS.vnnmmvmmn%%;%%nmmvmmnnv.SS' `S,vnnmmvv' `vmmn%;%nmmv' `vvmmnnv,%%%S' /vmnnnvnnmmmvv, .vnnnv;vnnnv, .vvmmmnnvnnnmv\ ;vm;%%nvnnn%;mmm;%nnnvn%%;mv; `vmm;%nvnnnnv%;mmm;%vnnnnvn%;mmv' `vmmnvnnnvv%;m%%m%%m;%vvnnnvnmmv' \vvvnnnvvv;vnnnv;vvvnnnvvv/ \vvnnn;vvv;v;vvv;nnnvv/ \vvnnnvv;%;%;%;%;%;vvnnnvv/ .,v% \nnnmnnn/%v,. .,vvnnnvv%;%;%;%;%;%;%;%vvnnvv,. .,vvvv,. ,vvnnvv, ,vvnvvnnvvnvv, .vvnn `nn' nnvv. .vvnn' mmmm `nnvv. vmmvnmmvnmmv' ., `vmmnvmmnvmmv `nm%nm%nm%' nn `%mn%mn%mn' nn nn(*)n .vmmmmv, .vnvvnv. .vvnvvvvvvnvv. vvnnnmmmvnnnvv .vvnnn' `vvvnnnvv. vvnnvv vvnvv .vvnnnv vnnvv. vnmnvnmnvnmnvnmnvnm. .mnvnmnvnmnvnmnvnmv vmmm%mmm%mmm%mmm%mmm mmm%mmm%mmm%mmm%mmm -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Hugunin's keynote speech at this year's PyCon was accompanied by a projection if his interactive interpreter session, and I know I wasn't alone in finding this a convincing example of Microsoft's (well, Jim's, really) full integration of Python into the .net framework. Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org Which .Net integreation technology are you speaking of? BTW, PyCon.org seems to be down (at least not reachable from here at the moment.) thanks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Mike wrote: Jim Hugunin's keynote speech at this year's PyCon was accompanied by a projection if his interactive interpreter session, and I know I wasn't alone in finding this a convincing example of Microsoft's (well, Jim's, really) full integration of Python into the .net framework. Which .Net integreation technology are you speaking of? http://workspaces.gotdotnet.com/ironpython /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Perl's documentation come of age
Perl's documentation has come of age: http://perldoc.perl.org/ Python morons really need to learn: • ample example codes. • example codes are linked to the appropriate doc location for each code word in the example. • written in a task-oriented style, or manifest-functionality style. That is, it does not have fucking pretensions of a computer science mode or fucking clean aloofness. It either is oriented towards tasks programers need to do, as in module documentations, or document the language as it manifestly functions. (e.g. input, output, side effects; concrete description of object's methods and variables.) The Python docs (docs.python.org), is organized in some incomprehensible computer sciency structure that is impossible to find anything. And the entire doc go to the extra mile to avoid any task-oriented writing or examples as if those are pests that can lower their fucking status. And when the Python docs tries to document its functions, it doesn't talk straight but instead throwing fucking bunch of abstract objects and models jargons. -- The Perl documentations, at least in its presentation (organization, focus) and technology (DHTML...) aspects, has come of age. However, the Perl doc's content and writing per se, remains the worst garbage possible. (and Python's is in the same ball park) The negative aspects people want to avoid are: • do not tech geek. Both perlers and pythoners do tech geeking. That is, mentioning of extraneous jargons, warnings, implementation details, little style guide here and there, unconscious opportunistic OpenSource propaganda pitch-ins, historic information provisions, insider jokes, author masturbation on language design and comparisons... etc. (with Perl, this may be understandable or irrelevant because it is their nature and design to be juvenile. They revel in it. But with Python, of its people's computer sciency aloofness and cleanness pretensions meanwhile don't really exhibit any ability to think and write better, are one fucking assholes.) • Do think clearly before writing. Both Perl and Python docs's writing quality are extremely bad. What they primarily lack is the ability to think clearly before writing. Perl docs write in the fashion of happy-go-lucky juvenile ramble, and Pythoner's in the fashion of computer sciency confoundedness. Both are incomprehensible. One easy way to test this, is for Pythoners to read Perl docs and vice versa. Pythoners will find that, you really don't know what the fuck the Perlers are talking about. Same with Perler with Python docs. However, you will not get the same feeling on well written docs, such as Java or Mathematica. (assume that the people here have been in the programing industry for several years, and are not familiar with the other languages in question.) What the Perlers Pythoners need to do, is to horn their skills outside of coding. Study philosophy, study economics, history, social sciences, and mathematics. Also, study functional programing or hang out in functional programing communities or hardcore GNU community many also improve vastly your critical thinking and doc writing abilities. More about documentation can be found here: http://www.xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/gubni_papri.html Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
snip• Do think clearly before writing. /snipYou should start thinking before you write something. Do you really think anyone takes you serious the way you talk?I haven't seen anything constructive yet from your side. You always have to comment, why don't you start writing documentation yourself if it bothers you so much. Write it the way you think it should be written and show the rest of the community you are capable of doing anything else but fucking qwasting others peoples time. Rudy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Rudy Schockaert wrote: snip • Do think clearly before writing. /snip You should start thinking before you write something. Do you really think anyone takes you serious the way you talk? I haven't seen anything constructive yet from your side. You always have to comment, why don't you start writing documentation yourself if it bothers you so much. Write it the way you think it should be written and show the rest of the community you are capable of doing anything else but fucking qwasting others peoples time. 1. Do not feed the trolls. 2. I offered $100 for a rewrite of the re documentation if he could persuade 5 regular readers of c.l.py to tell me his version was superior. Emails received: 0. 'Nuff said :-) regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
please feed the trolls. On 9/21/05, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rudy Schockaert wrote: snip • Do think clearly before writing. /snip You should start thinking before you write something. Do you really think anyone takes you serious the way you talk? I haven't seen anything constructive yet from your side. You always have to comment, why don't you start writing documentation yourself if it bothers you so much. Write it the way you think it should be written and show the rest of the community you are capable of doing anything else but fucking qwasting others peoples time.1. Do not feed the trolls.2. I offered $100 for a rewrite of the re documentation if he couldpersuade 5 regular readers of c.l.py to tell me his version wassuperior. Emails received: 0. 'Nuff said :-)regardsSteve--Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255+1 800 494 3119Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.comPyCon TX 2006www.pycon.org--http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- edward hotchkiss -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
On Wednesday 21 September 2005 05:41, Xah Lee wrote: One easy way to test this, is for Pythoners to read Perl docs and vice versa. Pythoners will find that, you really don't know what the fuck the Perlers are talking about. Same with Perler with Python docs. At the risk of feeding the troll here... point defeated. I learned Python before I learned Perl, but consider myself to now be fluent in both. And I find the docs for both to be immensely useful and fairly well-organized (OK, so sometimes I have to hunt a bit longer than I'd like in the Perl docs, but perldoc.perl.org looks promising). And in my early stages of Python from C++, and Perl from Python, shell, and C, I really didn't have any trouble figuring out what was going on. So, Guido, Fred Drake, and everyone else involved in writing Python docs: done well you have. Keep up the good work. Python IMHO has some of the best docs in the open-source world (on a par with Vim). - Michael -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
I'm new to Python, not programming. I agree with the point regarding the interpreter. what is that? who uses that!? Why are most examples like that, rather than executed as .py files? Another problem that I have (which does get annoying after awhile), is not using foo and bar. Spam and Eggs sucks. It's not funny, although Monty Python does rock. Why not use silly+walks instead. ***/me puts on Monty Python and turns the computer off*** -edward -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Ed Hotchkiss wrote: I'm new to Python, not programming. I agree with the point regarding the interpreter. I couldn't (with a quick skimming) find any references to the interpreter in the thread, so I'll guess the original assertion was something like showing new-comers the interpreter is stupid and wastes their time. what is that? who uses that!? As a (more than) full time Python programmer, I can say that I use the interactive interpreter daily, and it contributes significantly to my prototyping of new code and reverse-engineering of existing code. I could imagine that other people might not find it that useful, but the who uses that!? response is hard for me to understand. -- Benji York -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Ed Hotchkiss wrote: I'm new to Python, not programming. I agree with the point regarding the interpreter. what is that? who uses that!? I spend most of my work day at the interpreter. I don't write programs; I write libraries which I control with the interpreter. It's a fantastically useful and productive way to work. Why are most examples like that, rather than executed as .py files? If all of the examples were .py files, then many of them would have to have print statements sprinkled through them and a separate block to show the output. For most of the examples, I'd rather see the input and output interleaved so I know what corrseponds with what. Another problem that I have (which does get annoying after awhile), is not using foo and bar. Spam and Eggs sucks. It's not funny, although Monty Python does rock. Why not use silly+walks instead. Is this really a significant problem for you? -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Ed Hotchkiss wrote: I'm new to Python, not programming. I agree with the point regarding the interpreter. what is that? who uses that!? Why are most examples like that, rather than executed as .py files? I think showing examples at the Python interpreter prompt is *very* helpful and IMHO a preferred method in plenty of cases. If I'm showing someone a piece of code that returns some object the type of which you're not really that familiar with, would you rather be running it in a script, or on a command prompt (or, my preference is to either copy and paste the example to a script an run it with ``python -i`` or paste it to an edit in IPython)? With IPython (or vanilla Python interpreter with parse-and-bind tab completion turned on), you can inspect the object quite easily. Again, IMHO, much easier than from a script. Another problem that I have (which does get annoying after awhile), is not using foo and bar. Spam and Eggs sucks. It's not funny, although Monty Python does rock. Why not use silly+walks instead. Eh. Life's too short for me to get up in a roar about such as this. And Python's too good of a language for me to be overly bothered by example naming conventions. YMMV. ***/me puts on Monty Python and turns the computer off*** -edward -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Jeremy Jones wrote: Ed Hotchkiss wrote: I'm new to Python, not programming. I agree with the point regarding the interpreter. what is that? who uses that!? Why are most examples like that, rather than executed as .py files? I think showing examples at the Python interpreter prompt is *very* helpful and IMHO a preferred method in plenty of cases. If I'm showing someone a piece of code that returns some object the type of which you're not really that familiar with, would you rather be running it in a script, or on a command prompt (or, my preference is to either copy and paste the example to a script an run it with ``python -i`` or paste it to an edit in IPython)? With IPython (or vanilla Python interpreter with parse-and-bind tab completion turned on), you can inspect the object quite easily. Again, IMHO, much easier than from a script. Another problem that I have (which does get annoying after awhile), is not using foo and bar. Spam and Eggs sucks. It's not funny, although Monty Python does rock. Why not use silly+walks instead. Eh. Life's too short for me to get up in a roar about such as this. And Python's too good of a language for me to be overly bothered by example naming conventions. YMMV. Jim Hugunin's keynote speech at this year's PyCon was accompanied by a projection if his interactive interpreter session, and I know I wasn't alone in finding this a convincing example of Microsoft's (well, Jim's, really) full integration of Python into the .net framework. Modules are good, but the interactive interpreter is a brilliant way to show off what modules can do. As for Why not foo and bar rather than spam and eggs?, all I can think of to say is Get over it. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.pycon.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ the usual ] +---+ .:\:\:/:/:. | PLEASE DO NOT |:.:\:\:/:/:.: | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=: | | '=(\ 9 9 /)=' | Thank you, | ( (_) ) | Management | /`-vvv-'\ +---+ / \ | |@@@ / /|,|\ \ | |@@@ /_// /^\ \\_\ @x@@x@| | |/ WW( ( ) )WW \/| |\| __\,,\ /,,/__ \||/ | | | jgs (__Y__) /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ == -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ghoti.net/~kst San Diego Supercomputer Center * http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Perl's documentation come of age
This guy deserves two ascii trolls: ___ /| /| | | ||__|| | Please do | / O O\__ NOT | / \ feed the| / \ \ trolls | / _\ \ __| /|\\ \ || / | | | |\/ || / \|_|_|/ \__|| / / \|| || / | | /|| --| | | |// | --| * _| |_|_|_| | \-/ *-- _--\ _ \ // | / _ \\ _ // |/ * / \_ /- | - | | * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c +---+ .:\:\:/:/:. | PLEASE DO NOT |:.:\:\:/:/:.: | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=: | | '=(\ 9 9 /)=' | Thank you, | ( (_) ) | Management | /`-vvv-'\ +---+ / \ | |@@@ / /|,|\ \ | |@@@ /_// /^\ \\_\ @x@@x@| | |/ WW( ( ) )WW \/| |\| __\,,\ /,,/__ \||/ | | | jgs (__Y__) /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ == -- Måns Rullgård [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
