Re: Boss wants me to program
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:11:43 -0500, rumours say that phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] might have written: I wonder what percentage of the tools you refer to are Eclipse and not Java per se. ?? I don't know. The really big bucks of IBM sent Eclipse through the roof. The project name is pretty offensive too, since it's related to the term Sun and not the term Java. If one has heard of the differences between Sun and IBM about Java, and knowing that Eclipse started as an IBM project, then the reasoning for choosing the name Eclipse becomes more obvious... -- TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best. Dear Paul, please stop spamming us. The Corinthians -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:57:36 -0700, xeys_00 wrote: The other alternative is to install console mode linux on it and hope that the ncurses library can be used by python. Hi, for curses module and linux, I made a library which give you various widgets (combobox, buttons,checkbox,menubar,...). It's hard to find googling so I let you know it here. curses-extra is its name http://www.sideralis.net/index.php?action=4pjid=20 Bye, Riccardo -- Riccardo Galli Sideralis Programs http://www.sideralis.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
I think Python works on fairly antique hardware, whatever OS you use (as long as the OS works ok). You can get a DOS version of Python 2.2 at http://www.caddit.net/ , but I don't have any good suggestions for a UI then. This might work after some tweaking: http://www.effbot.org/zone/console-index.htm If you google for python curses you'll find info on that route, and if you go for a GUI solution on Windows or Linux, there are more routes than Tkinter. I'm not sure what to suggest on really old hardware though. Perhaps pyFLTK or FxPy are lighter than the typical alternatives. See also http://wiki.python.org/moin/GuiProgramming Unless we're talking about several installations, getting at least a Pentium III is obviously much cheaper than to spend several hours getting the program to work. For a dirt cheap system with several users, curses and terminals with a linux server is obviously hard to beat. A slightly more modern approach would be a web based app. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, phil wrote: Wow! How about a sextant? Simple device really. And a great practical demonstration of trigonometry. Excellent idea, even found a few how to sites. We'll do it. Any others? A ballista? For many years when i was a kid, my dad wanted to build a ballista; he collected loads of literature on it. There's a surprising amount of maths involved - the Greeks actually devised instruments for computing cube roots in order to do it! Perhaps not an ideal project for schoolkids, though. tom -- How did i get here? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From 30 years of application development experience I will tell you
NOT HUMBLY, that Python is easily the most productive, the most read-write
and the most elegant of any of the above. Handsdown better than Java, the
runner up in that group.
I don't want to start a flamewar here - but I would like to point out that not
only the language you use affects productivity, but also tools that support
working with the language affect a lot too. For example, I once thought I
would start writing any documents longer than say, two A4 pages with lout
(I've used LaTeX so far). However, realising how much more supporting tools,
add-ons and utilities LaTeX had, I stayed with that (moreover, some of the
other people already new LaTeX but didn't know lout).
Recently I participated in creating a visual FSM editor as Eclipse plugin. I
hadn't used Eclipse before, but seeing how easy it was to create tests,
refactor code (bicyclerepairman is not even close to features offered by
Eclipse) and use gazillion other tools designed to improve Java productivity
made me realise the language has a really, really great selection of tools and
utilities available.
Now, I earn my bread by coding Python and I do like coding in Python the most,
but sometimes I think I would have been better off with Java - not because of
the language, but because of the environment and sheer selection of tools
available.
Let me emphasize a little more. Even though Python itself is great, I think we
don't have quite yet tools that offer
* Industrial-grade reverse-engineering tool (ie. automatic UML diagram
generation out of code) which also supports creating classes/interfaces out
of UML diagrams, and modifies the other automatically when the other changes
* Automatic unit test case generation (pydev is going to this direction, I
think)
* Decent code coverage tools - and I don't mean statement coverage, but path
coverage or multi-condition coverage
Just see how many handy tools there are for Java if you use Eclipse:
http://eclipse-plugins.2y.net/eclipse/plugins.jsp
(Yes, I know that many of those plugins are not related to any language but
Eclipse and that some of the plugins are specifically Python related, but most
of the good stuff is for Java Development)
Pydev looks really promising, though. With Eclipse, I think it is a very good
alternative to commercial Python IDEs and could mature to the Other Way(TM)
for developing Python programs (the other is, of course, vi(m)/(X)Emacs)
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Re: Boss wants me to program
I don't want to start a flamewar here - No heat, no flames. Everyone's cool Let me emphasize a little more. Even though Python itself is great, I think we don't have quite yet tools that offer Ya know, I just don't know enough about javaworld. The language I do not like. I wonder what percentage of the tools you refer to are Eclipse and not Java per se. ?? I don't know. The really big bucks of IBM sent Eclipse through the roof. Python reminds me more of Linux. Incredible no of packages, kinda disjointed, docs pretty bad, not integrated. But amazing stuff if you have the stomach for it. (seen pygame?) Maybe Python will get a daddy someday. Comes down to preference. Isn't it absolutely amazing how many choices we have. Remember the 70's - Cobol, ASM, C, Basic.CICS(shudder) I am pleased that folks on a Python list feel free to praise other technologies. That's neat. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:11:43 -0400, phil wrote (in article [EMAIL PROTECTED]): Comes down to preference. Isn't it absolutely amazing how many choices we have. Remember the 70's - Cobol, ASM, C, Basic.CICS(shudder) And please, no eulogies (especially for CICS) - being reminded of them is bad for my heart :~) I once did a engineering modeling system in IBM 1130 assembler that ran with overlays in 32K memory, because FORTRAN was too hoggish. Input was the console keyboard and output was a CalComp plotter. Python reminds me more of Linux. Incredible no of packages, kinda disjointed, docs pretty bad, not integrated. But amazing stuff if you have the stomach for it. (seen pygame?) Maybe Python will get a daddy someday. Seriously, having been involved in several (so called) high-level productivity languages over the years on both IBM and HP (3000 series), I am really enamored with Python (not to mention being on the user end :~). However, as you say (needs a daddy) it is still for the most part in hackerdom evolution, and will not be a mainstream development platform until a Sun/IBM/whatever takes it under-wing with that intention in an open environment (the suits have to be convinced they can gain big time otherwise). Can that happen in the Open-Source arena - I'm not convinced it can because such is more akin to a staging ground at present. And what would be really cool is that if the same thing happened with Linux - it evolved to an elegant OS X like GUI without losing the intuitive underbelly. Just any daddy won't do though. The least beneficial would be the path of DOS (sorry, I'm not a MS fan :~)). A major problem is that business thinking (i.e. the suits) is overly monopolistic to the point of counter-productivity. Rather than an evolving open mainstream development platform (i.e. technical productivity competition) and commercial products emanating from such, the suits are focused on milking anything they can get their hands on with only short-term bonuses in mind. I guess it all gets down to human nature (or as Pogo said ...). Enough, before I really get carried away. Lee C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
The question was about someone with limited programming experience building simple easy to use programs on Windows. This is the niche where VB and Delphi realy shine. Python with TkInter is kind of o.k., I realy like Python+PyQt+Eric3+QtDesigner, but currently that only works with a commercial licence of Qt on Windows, that's why, on Windows, I'd recommend VB (maybe Delphi) for small projects. This doesn't mean I would recommend VB for everything. For large projects C++ or java can both be far superior, depending on needs and available tools and libraries. I realy like Python for small projects on Linux. Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to manage large and complex projects. If there is one thing I want to advise, is to get some education, at least buy a few good books, but only 20+ years of experience can sometimes substitute for a few good programming classes. If they teach how to write maintainable code, software design, efficient sorting algorithms, user interface design, security, etc. then you're on to something. Courses focussing on a single language often don't teach you these general programming proinciples. I think it's important to know how stuff works behind the scenes to some extent. But I realy like to use all the hard work other people have done for me. I prefer QPrinter.print(MyEditor.lines()) to having to push the bits out the LPT myself. I prefer TMessageBox-Question(Do you realy want to quit) to having to MOV the bits to my video memory myself. I realy prefer a WYSIWYG UI design tool to having to code BUTTON(120, 123, 123, 335, -1, NULL, doButton, Push, push this button) Why? Because people already figured out a way to do that, saving me time, so I can finish my project on schedule or spend my time on something else. P.S. I share your worries about the dwindling number of people that actually have the technical know-how to run our increasingly complex society. I think it has to do with our society mainly rewarding charismatic people, and a lack of organisation among the more technical professions. We should have a bar exam for all programmers! About teaching in the exact sciences: I think we need a more hands-on applied approach, to some extent this holds for the entire school system. I'll stop here, or this will become a long OT rant. Adriaan Renting| Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ASTRON | Phone: +31 521 595 217 P.O. Box 2 | GSM: +31 6 24 25 17 28 NL-7990 AA Dwingeloo | FAX: +31 521 597 332 The Netherlands| Web: http://www.astron.nl/~renting/ phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/28/05 8:04 PM You are quite correct to point out how much better it is to know what is going on behind the scenes. But heck, once you know how to extract square roots - you need to let the computer do it! GUI interfaces should be the same deal! Thomas Bartkus I think I pretty much agree. I essentially code my own gui builder but in text files. I just think it is really important to emphasise the operative but once you know how in your comments. Then some would counter with oh, so we should code everthing in assembler? Ouch. No, I will admit there is judgement required. Everything should be done the easiest way, with the qualification that you need to understand how using someone else's shortcut leaves you vulnerable. This guy is trying to get started and looking for our advice and I saw most of the advice leaning towrd VB (aarrgh!) and I thought I should give him other food for thought. I'm going to take this opportunity for a short rant. rant I believe our society ( I'm an old fart) is drifting toward a VERY small percentage of people knowing, caring or even being curious about how stuff works. I teach high school geometry and am APPALLED at the apathy. I am concerned about the future of this nation, economically, but spirtually as well. So, this influences my advice. Know how your stuff works if it is reasonable. Tom Wolfe talked in a book about two kinds of kids. Those that play video games and those that make video games, and the numbers of the latter is shrinking. /rant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
About teaching in the exact sciences: I think we need a more hands-on applied approach, to some extent this holds for the entire school system. YES! As a geometry( trig) teacher, I am going to have them build a shed, a kite, a sundial. I would love some doable ideas for hands on which would teach more principles without being major construction projects. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Harry George wrote: Adriaan Renting [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to manage large and complex projects. What is a large project, and what is Python missing that C++ and Java have for such tasks? But C++ and Java have features that *management* likes, thus making it easier to manage large projects. (That says nothing about whether or not it makes it easier to produce quality code, successful projects, happy customers, large profits, or any such silly things... just that it's easier to manage. ;-) Less facetiously: I have managed a large Python project or three, and several large C++ projects (and, thankfully, no large Java projects) and found Python quite up to the task. In fact, if anything the C++ projects ended up more in danger of succumbing to the sheer weight of the code than did the Python projects. But I attribute this more to the fact that we had evolved to using agile approaches with the Python projects than to any of those special features either present or lacking in C++. Ultimately, manageability of a project is far and away more about the people involved and the techniques used than it is about any single technology involved. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wow! How about a sextant? Simple device really. And a great practical demonstration of trigonometry. Excellent idea, even found a few how to sites. We'll do it. Any others? Sextants are difficult to build precisely (compared with quadrants) and they are dangerous (if incorrectly used for sighting the sun). Sighting stars can only be done at night, not so easy to demonstrate during school hours. Nonetheless, this page is pretty cool: http://www.tecepe.com.br/nav/CDSextantProject.htm -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Adriaan Renting [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I realy prefer a WYSIWYG UI design tool to having to code BUTTON(120, 123, 123, 335, -1, NULL, doButton, Push, push this button) With a modern GUI library, it's more like: buttonBox.addWidget(Button(New, my, new)) and your button is added to the buttonbox. Anything that requires you to specify the location exactly (whether in a WYSISOWYG GUI tool or code) is fundamentally broken. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Brian schrieb:
Microsoft Visual Basic (.NET) would be your best bet for this type of
software development. It allows you to create GUI apps that can work
with a variety of database options, such as Access or MS SQL Server.
Maybe you're right with .net, but I'd go for C# when doing .net. Basic
is the ugliest and most mind corrupting language I've come across. And
the OP has a C/C++ background.
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Re: Boss wants me to program
Hello, If you have enough money to buy a licence, Visual Basic seem a very good option. (But you should learn how to use design patterns.) Without knowing this language I was able to perform a graphical user interface to interact with an automat, a mySQL database and many analogical sensors in less than 1 month. Cyril On 27 Jun 2005 11:51:21 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company).The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the developmentwork done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I knowbasic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windowsprograms that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management,etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep anopen mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs haveno speed requirement.But they must be pretty, and not confuse myboss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked thewindows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys--http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Visual Basic is a good option for small programs on Windows. It does cost a lot of money depending on your needs. It's not a good choice for large programs (or at least used to be). The older versions of VC++ are very hard and difficult, the newer versions seem to be o.k. I used to prefer Borland C++Builder for large Windows projects. Both Java and C++ are very complex languages, they wouldn't be my first choice to learn programming basics. Python is especially nice if you are using Some Unix environment. I like how it interoperates with Qt for designing user interfaces. It's free too, but for Windows you might need to wait for Qt version 4 to be able to create User Interfaces o Windows. I like the Eric3 program to develop my applications. As to the actual programming: Writing the documentation, helpfiles and maintaining the application is what will take most of the time, not the actual writing itself. Here are some sites that might have some useful hints for creating easy to use applications: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html; http://www.nngroup.com/; http://www.rha.com/ui_hall_of_shame.htm; http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm; http://www.pixelcentric.net/x-shame/; http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html; Adriaan Renting| Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ASTRON | Phone: +31 521 595 217 P.O. Box 2 | GSM: +31 6 24 25 17 28 NL-7990 AA Dwingeloo | FAX: +31 521 597 332 The Netherlands| Web: http://www.astron.nl/~renting/ Cyril BAZIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/28/05 11:25 AM Hello, If you have enough money to buy a licence, Visual Basic seem a very good option. (But you should learn how to use design patterns.) Without knowing this language I was able to perform a graphical user interface to interact with an automat, a mySQL database and many analogical sensors in less than 1 month. Cyril On 27 Jun 2005 11:51:21 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
The problem with all posts that say Use Visual Basic, its easy for small programs is that small programs, seemingly inevitably, become bigger programs (unless they become dead, unmaintained programs). If your users - you, your boss, coworkers, whoever - find your software useful, and you start to get even remotely enthusiastic for the project, then you'll find yourself extending and developing new features, as well as having to fix problems in your existing code. And while I'm personally no expert at language design, I've noticed it seems to be a pretty solid consensus among the actual experts that VB is one of the most atrociously designed mass market programming languages in existence. Fine for small programs, sure. But if you ever want to even think about doing bigger programs, or extending those useful smaller programs to do more, or even maintain and fix bugs in your existing code, then VB is not going to be your friend. The major traditional advantage of VB is that it integrates very smoothly and easily with Windows, and it has powerful and simple GUI building tools. However, Microsoft have essentially displaced VB from lone occupancy of this niche with .NET. And part of the point of .NET is that its not forcing you into one particular choice of language. So there's no advantage to be had from using Visual Basic; youre better off using a language that might give you some sort of insight into good programming practice, not to mention one that'll allow you to develop a serious application if you ever need to. Ultimately, if you want a current, supported version of VB, you have to use VB .NET anyway, and if you're going to use .NET, why use VB at all? If you have some C++ experience, C# is probably a good bet, as has been pointed out. You get all the advantages that VB used to provide, with far fewer of the drawbacks, and it'll stand you in good stead to learn Java. Theres even a version of Python for .NET, called IronPython. The major advantage of this is that you get to program in Python, which I can tell you from experience is a lot more enjoyable and pain-free than C, C++, Fortran, or Java (and, I would highly suspect, VB and C#). But apparently the available GUI builders aren't as good for Python - having not done a whole lot of GUI building in general, I'll leave this for more experienced people to judge. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Theres even a version of Python for .NET, called IronPython. The major advantage of this is that you get to program in Python, which I can tell you from experience is a lot more enjoyable and pain-free than C, C++, Fortran, or Java (and, I would highly suspect, VB and C#). But apparently the available GUI builders aren't as good for Python - having not done a whole lot of GUI building in general, I'll leave this for more experienced people to judge. From 30 years of application development experience I will tell you NOT HUMBLY, that Python is easily the most productive, the most read-write and the most elegant of any of the above. Handsdown better than Java, the runner up in that group. Now let me explain somthing about GUI buiders or IDE's, from some experience, Visual Studio being the worst. The IDE takes a picture of what they think you want to do, they then ask you some questions about the components, and they afford you the opportunity to modify the properties of the objects. Then they store all this info in tables and build code at buildtime. The tables are rarely documented well and sometimes have very confusing layouts. So you usually go back to the IDE to make changes and if the changes are compilcated and there are interconnected events to consider, you better know what you are doing. I consider it a nightmare of hiding code from the programmer. The IDE is taking on the burden of a couple layers of abstraction and the IDE ain't that smart. You would be wise, if you choose Python to choose Tkinter or WxWindows and learn the properties of a radio button and how to trigger events. Writing simple GUIs is not that hard. Then after you know what is going on behind the scenes, a BOA Constructor will not be as mysterious or dangerous. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
phil wrote: You would be wise, if you choose Python to choose Tkinter or WxWindows and learn the properties of a radio button and how to trigger events. Writing simple GUIs is not that hard. Then after you know what is going on behind the scenes, a BOA Constructor will not be as mysterious or dangerous. I agree. The language is more important than the gui. It is not very hard to make good applikations in eg. Tkinter, and you will understand evey part of it. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Theres even a version of Python for .NET, called IronPython. The major advantage of this is that you get to program in Python, which I can tell you from experience is a lot more enjoyable and pain-free than C, C++, Fortran, or Java (and, I would highly suspect, VB and C#). But apparently the available GUI builders aren't as good for Python - having not done a whole lot of GUI building in general, I'll leave this for more experienced people to judge. From 30 years of application development experience I will tell you NOT HUMBLY, that Python is easily the most productive, the most read-write and the most elegant of any of the above. Handsdown better than Java, the runner up in that group. Agreed! Now let me explain somthing about GUI buiders or IDE's, from some experience, Visual Studio being the worst. The IDE takes a picture of what they think you want to do, they then ask you some questions about the components, and they afford you the opportunity to modify the properties of the objects. Then they store all this info in tables and build code at buildtime. The tables are rarely documented well and sometimes have very confusing layouts. So you usually go back to the IDE to make changes and if the changes are compilcated and there are interconnected events to consider, you better know what you are doing. I consider it a nightmare of hiding code from the programmer. The IDE is taking on the burden of a couple layers of abstraction and the IDE ain't that smart. A nightmare of hiding code from the programmer Hmmhh! Well, it certainly does hide a lot of code! More precisely, it removes the need for a lot of hand coding work that should be automated. Do I want to spend 95% of my coding/debugging efforts on a consistent user interface or would I rather spend the bulk of my efforts on the business problem that needs solving and just *have* an attractive and consistent user interface. You would be wise, if you choose Python to choose Tkinter or WxWindows and learn the properties of a radio button and how to trigger events. Writing simple GUIs is not that hard. Then after you know what is going on behind the scenes, a BOA Constructor will not be as mysterious or dangerous. Writing simple user interfaces may not be hard but simple user interfaces rarely serve well. More to the point is that programs are much better when they have idiot proof (and idiot easy!) user interfaces where the programmer hasn't the need to cope with the 1001 ways a user can louse up input or need to write an encyclopeadia of documentation on how one interacts with his particular program. You are quite correct to point out how much better it is to know what is going on behind the scenes. But heck, once you know how to extract square roots - you need to let the computer do it! GUI interfaces should be the same deal! Thomas Bartkus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
You are quite correct to point out how much better it is to know what is going on behind the scenes. But heck, once you know how to extract square roots - you need to let the computer do it! GUI interfaces should be the same deal! Thomas Bartkus I think I pretty much agree. I essentially code my own gui builder but in text files. I just think it is really important to emphasise the operative but once you know how in your comments. Then some would counter with oh, so we should code everthing in assembler? Ouch. No, I will admit there is judgement required. Everything should be done the easiest way, with the qualification that you need to understand how using someone else's shortcut leaves you vulnerable. This guy is trying to get started and looking for our advice and I saw most of the advice leaning towrd VB (aarrgh!) and I thought I should give him other food for thought. I'm going to take this opportunity for a short rant. rant I believe our society ( I'm an old fart) is drifting toward a VERY small percentage of people knowing, caring or even being curious about how stuff works. I teach high school geometry and am APPALLED at the apathy. I am concerned about the future of this nation, economically, but spirtually as well. So, this influences my advice. Know how your stuff works if it is reasonable. Tom Wolfe talked in a book about two kinds of kids. Those that play video games and those that make video games, and the numbers of the latter is shrinking. /rant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
make something that will work for him, am I correct? The other alternative is to install console mode linux on it and hope that the ncurses library can be used by python. The system could be as low as a 486 dx2 66 with maybe 16 megs of ram. Well, I just thought I'd give you people more info on the situation. That's almost exactly what I was given about 5 years ago. The system I created uses a postgresql database and a python/ncurses frontend. Over the years, the system has become quite a bit more complex and I have moved to pentium systems with as much ram as I can scrounge up. They work quite well. We get pentium machines for free all the time. People are having a hard time getting rid of them. We use them for my database app or as thin terminals in our computer lab. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, sorry to throw perhaps unrelated stuff in here, but I want everyone to know what we have right now in the office. We started with an electric typewriter and file cabinets. We were given an old 386 with a 20 mb hard drive about 5 years ago, and we moved everything over to a very very old version of msworks on msdos 6. Depending on what we are given(for reasons best left alone, I won't explain why we can't actually COUNT on the actual buying of a new system), we will be left with this relic, or be given a 486. Maybe a old pentium 90 or so. I may try to convince the boss that I can write dos programs for the existing machine. If we get any kind of upgrade, I'm sure it will be able to run linux with X and a low overhead window manager. If that happened, I'd be able to use python and this tk thing you have talked about and make something that will work for him, am I correct? The other alternative is to install console mode linux on it and hope that the ncurses library can be used by python. The system could be as low as a 486 dx2 66 with maybe 16 megs of ram. Well, I just thought I'd give you people more info on the situation. Xeys Check the yellow pages in your area (or closest large city if you're not in one), for used computer stores. Or just start calling all the computer stores in your area and ask them if they have any used computers for sale. I was able to get a Dell Pentium 3 for $45 dollars last year for a second computer to put Linux on. I just asked him if he had any old computers for really cheep that booted, and that's what he found in the back. I just needed to add ram and a hard drive. You might be surprised what you can get used if you ask around. Cheers, Ron -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
you need to find another place to work -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
I think since speed is not such an issue (I heard that python can make faster GUI programs) you should use Visual Basic. It is very well suited for Windows programming. There is the good thing that you can visually create the GUI hence it is easier to create the GUI. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
I guess you need a database plus GUI layer for your apps, you might look in to MS Access (or Open Office 2.0 Base, but this is still beta, so I don't think your boss will like that) for that -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Apple Grew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think since speed is not such an issue (I heard that python can make faster GUI programs) you should use Visual Basic. It is very well suited for Windows programming. There is the good thing that you can visually create the GUI hence it is easier to create the GUI. Of course, you can do that with Python, too, with Glade (http://www.jamesh.id.au/software/libglade/) or Boa Constructor (http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/). (There might be more of them.) -- Björn Lindström [EMAIL PROTECTED] Student of computational linguistics, Uppsala University, Sweden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Hi Xeys, Even though I absolutely love Python... Microsoft Visual Basic (.NET) would be your best bet for this type of software development. It allows you to create GUI apps that can work with a variety of database options, such as Access or MS SQL Server. My personal opinion is this: 1) Python shines the best on the server realm. 2) VB.net shines the best on the client-computer realm. Brian --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
I see several on this list have their opinion and lean toward VB. Not me, done that and vc++. Hate'em. Been developing 30 years and I like control over what I'm doing and Python and Tkinter are the best tools I've ever used. And for the most part IDE's like BOA Constructor are just confusing. IMHO. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
As well as wxDesigner (great!) http://www.roebling.de/ Regards, Philippe Björn Lindström wrote: Apple Grew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think since speed is not such an issue (I heard that python can make faster GUI programs) you should use Visual Basic. It is very well suited for Windows programming. There is the good thing that you can visually create the GUI hence it is easier to create the GUI. Of course, you can do that with Python, too, with Glade (http://www.jamesh.id.au/software/libglade/) or Boa Constructor (http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/). (There might be more of them.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Xeys, Even though I absolutely love Python... Microsoft Visual Basic (.NET) would be your best bet for this type of software development. It allows you to create GUI apps that can work with a variety of database options, such as Access or MS SQL Server. My personal opinion is this: 1) Python shines the best on the server realm. 2) VB.net shines the best on the client-computer realm. I would modify that. 1) VB shines in the MS Windows/Office realm. 2) Python shines everywhere else. Thomas Bartkus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
Thomas Bartkus wrote: I would modify that. 1) VB shines in the MS Windows/Office realm. 2) Python shines everywhere else. True. However, it's also important to remember that most computer systems (at least in the United States) come with Microsoft Windows installed on them. You have to write software for the platform that one will be working with -- in most cases, that's Microsoft Windows. :-) Brian --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Boss wants me to program
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a manager where I work(one of the cogs in a food service company). The boss needed one of us to become the tech guy, and part of that is writing small windows programs for the office. He wants the development work done in house, and he knows I am in school for a CS minor. I know basic C++(Part 2 of that is in the fall), and I will be taking Java 1 in the fall also. What is the easiest way for me to make windows programs that will do basic things like(Inventory, Menu Management, etc...)? I have heard visual basic is where it's at. I want to keep an open mind though, so I am wondering if python could be an option. The programs have no speed requirement. But they must be pretty, and not confuse my boss. Plus he wants well documented help for each function. I asked the windows programming group, but I thought I would ask here also. Thanks. Xeys Since you already know a bit of C++, you can try C++ Builder 6 from Borland. It's old but you may even get the Personal Edition for free if you download the Nokia toolkit. Personal edition doesn't have database components included however. C++ is not an easy language beyond class room use but C++ Builder is about as easy as it can be made. You don't need to truly understand C++ and OOP to get by with some simple Windows apps in C++ Builder. And most of what you learn about VCL (GUI library in C++ Builder) will more or less translate to other toolkits. Stay off VC++. You need some expertise to use it. C++.NET may be OK for you too. C# will also be natural to someone with C++ know how. Visual Studio.NET(C# and C++.NET in your case) and Delphi are other good options. SharpDevelop (.NET) is free and should be very easy to understand for beginners. You can also look at the (free trial) beta release of Visual Studio 2005 if you want something a little more sophisticated but SharpDevelop is probably better to start with (not too many features to overwhelm). Boo is a Python like language that works with .NET and is well integrated with SharpDevelop. Java GUI toolkits (Swing and SWT) use sophisticated OOP designs and are very complex. Not easy for beginners to wrap their minds around. Non professionals should stay off them. Your Java 1 will not prepare you enough for them. While Python is a wonderful language, GUI Builders (Boa, PythonCard, Glade etc) available for it are nowhere close in maturity compared to the ones I mentioned above. So stay off Python for GUIs for now. You can come back once you have understood programming better. As for Visual Basic, version 6 is very easy to learn and use for basic applications but is no longer sold (other than used copies at eBay). The new VB.NET is a bit more sophisticated. You will be better off with C# rather than VB.NET (both are essentially the same) here since it will be a more familiar syntax for you. The best advice I can give is to pick a language/IDE with which you can get some live help (friend/neighbor/colleage) who can hold your hands for a while. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
