Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-02-04 13:34:42 -0500, rantingrick said: I don't care who *that* person is as long as *they* are willing to push IDLE forward. I would be honored to accept the reigns and lead OR follow someone else's lead. But we need to receive the old idlefork or have them delete the old idle fork as too much confusion will spread with when two idleforks exists. There is a movement afoot to update IDLE. I am going to be a part of that. There is an implementation called VIDLE that made some changes and those are going to be integrated in before the major refactorings begin. This initial push will hit both 2.7.x (I think I read it right) and 3.x lines. Going forward though we are going to focus on IDLE in the 3.x series only. There is a nice list of changes and some folks that are willing to help when the repo goes into Mercurial. -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 05/02/2011 09:44, flebber wrote: On Feb 5, 10:24 am, Stephen Hansen wrote: On 2/4/11 3:01 PM, rantingrick wrote: Put your money where your mouth is. ditto! I thought as much. My money is where my mouth is: but that is not IDLE, as I have no use for it and no interest in it at all. The status quo with regards to IDLE is satisfactory to me. You're the one talking so much about how it needs to improve. So do it. Get started. Now. But you'll just find another excuse to rant on like you always do, and be basically useless. Me, I _have_ contributed patches: I have released actual code that actual people have found actually useful. I do run two build slaves and proactively try to assist in resolving issues that come up with Python's testing (usually: ouch, there's a lot of red at the moment, must get cracking) and stability. So, yeah. You're the hypocrite here, man. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog:http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc < 1KViewDownload Idlefork isn't dead to rick! just pining for the alps! "alps"? That should be "fjords"! :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 5, 10:24 am, Stephen Hansen wrote: > On 2/4/11 3:01 PM, rantingrick wrote: > > >> Put your money where your mouth is. > > > ditto! > > I thought as much. > > My money is where my mouth is: but that is not IDLE, as I have no use > for it and no interest in it at all. The status quo with regards to IDLE > is satisfactory to me. > > You're the one talking so much about how it needs to improve. So do it. > Get started. Now. > > But you'll just find another excuse to rant on like you always do, and > be basically useless. > > Me, I _have_ contributed patches: I have released actual code that > actual people have found actually useful. I do run two build slaves and > proactively try to assist in resolving issues that come up with Python's > testing (usually: ouch, there's a lot of red at the moment, must get > cracking) and stability. > > So, yeah. You're the hypocrite here, man. > > -- > > Stephen Hansen > ... Also: Ixokai > ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io > ... Blog:http://meh.ixokai.io/ > > signature.asc > < 1KViewDownload Idlefork isn't dead to rick! just pining for the alps! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/4/11 3:01 PM, rantingrick wrote: >> Put your money where your mouth is. > > ditto! I thought as much. My money is where my mouth is: but that is not IDLE, as I have no use for it and no interest in it at all. The status quo with regards to IDLE is satisfactory to me. You're the one talking so much about how it needs to improve. So do it. Get started. Now. But you'll just find another excuse to rant on like you always do, and be basically useless. Me, I _have_ contributed patches: I have released actual code that actual people have found actually useful. I do run two build slaves and proactively try to assist in resolving issues that come up with Python's testing (usually: ouch, there's a lot of red at the moment, must get cracking) and stability. So, yeah. You're the hypocrite here, man. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 4, 12:49 pm, Stephen Hansen wrote: > On 2/4/11 10:34 AM, rantingrick wrote: > > > But we need to receive the old idlefork or > > have them delete the old idle fork as too much confusion will spread > > with when two idleforks exists. > > This is nonsense. And probably just another excuse for you to rant > instead of actually doing something of any use. Thats a very *ironic* thing to say Stephan! > IDLEfork was a specific project which ended. Exactly. The key word here is ENDED! The changes were rolled back into Pythons stdlib. > It doesn't need to be > "taken over" or "deleted" -- it served its purpose and there's nothing > wrong with its history being preserved. history translated: old asss shmit > Your new idea for a project has > very different aims and a very different agenda from the idlefork that was. No, both my idea and the old idea was to improve IDLE. What is so different about that? > So name your new project something else. reIDLE, maybe. Or unIDLE. Or > whatever else. OK, name yourself something else, like naysayer, gossip-hound, or troll. > Put your money where your mouth is. ditto! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/4/11 10:34 AM, rantingrick wrote: > But we need to receive the old idlefork or > have them delete the old idle fork as too much confusion will spread > with when two idleforks exists. This is nonsense. And probably just another excuse for you to rant instead of actually doing something of any use. IDLEfork was a specific project which ended. It doesn't need to be "taken over" or "deleted" -- it served its purpose and there's nothing wrong with its history being preserved. Your new idea for a project has very different aims and a very different agenda from the idlefork that was. So name your new project something else. reIDLE, maybe. Or unIDLE. Or whatever else. There is no real danger of confusion. Welcome to Open Source. Forking is good, not bad. There is no overmind, no one speaks for the silent majority. Actions may-- may!-- get you some support and followers. Talking will get you none at all. Put your money where your mouth is. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 4, 3:55 am, flebber wrote: > Enough talk ratingrick where is your feature and request tracker for > your idle fork? How can people assist you in your new idle fork > project? What are your stated project goals & timeline? I am ready flebber but we have a problem. An old IDLE fork project still exists and if i start a new one then folks will probably get confused. We don't need more multiplicity. So, I am asking now that the owners of IDLE fork step forth and offer the site to me or someone who would be interested in restarting the fork with new goals of cleaning up the horrible code base and ambition to maybe do more. We don't want to bloat IDLE but we do want to clean it up. I don't care who *that* person is as long as *they* are willing to push IDLE forward. I would be honored to accept the reigns and lead OR follow someone else's lead. But we need to receive the old idlefork or have them delete the old idle fork as too much confusion will spread with when two idleforks exists. Here is a link to the old idle fork: http://idlefork.sourceforge.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 3, 11:15 am, rantingrick wrote: > If anyone would like to see a good example of how IDLE code should be > written. I highly suggest you check out the source for PyShell and > PyCrust which is located in roughly... > > HOME\PythonXX\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.8-msw-ansi\wx\py: > * shell.py > * crust.py > * filling.py > > Also run these scripts to see them all in action: > * PyAlaCarte.py > * PyAlaMode.py UPDATE: For those of you who would like to see the source online here is a link... http://svn.wxwidgets.org/viewvc/wx/wxPython/trunk/wx/py -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 3, 7:41 am, Corey Richardson wrote: > On 2/2/2011 2:44 PM, rantingrick wrote: > > Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for > improvements? +1 for this. Enough talk ratingrick where is your feature and request tracker for your idle fork? How can people assist you in your new idle fork project? What are your stated project goals & timeline? We all suspect you have no answers to basic questions which would involve you doing anything!!! So come on rick reply with some other pius full of shit answer that will absolve you of action and will still leave you the worlds biggest one handed typist. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
If anyone would like to see a good example of how IDLE code should be written. I highly suggest you check out the source for PyShell and PyCrust which is located in roughly... HOME\PythonXX\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.8-msw-ansi\wx\py: * shell.py * crust.py * filling.py Also run these scripts to see them all in action: * PyAlaCarte.py * PyAlaMode.py This is a code base that was laid out in a logical and sensible manner. This is a code base that can be built from. IDLE on the other hand is utter chaos. If you don't believe me, first look at the beautiful scripts i mentioned above, then check out these scripts in your idlelib... PythonXX\Lib\idlelib: * EditorWindow.py * PyShell.py It is like night and day people! NIGHT AND DAY!!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 3, 4:29 am, flebber wrote: > For an example of a brilliant beginners "ide" racket has it covered > with DrRackethttp://racket-lang.org/, it has selectable language > levels beginner, intermediate, advanced that allows the learner to > adjust the level of language features available as they learn, > teachpacks are installable to add extra features or options when > completing the tutorials(could easily be adapted to the python > tutorials). If idle is for teaching people to learn python shouldn't > it have the facility to do that? I think it would be a bad idea for us to follow in racket's footsteps. Primarily because these sorts of "handicapping" of the language do not actually help a new user. How is it going to help a beginner by removing certain features? If you don't understand a certain feature then removing the feature does not relieve the confusion. If the philosophy breaks down to "gentle learning curve" then a properly written tutorial is all you need. Ad Python has tons of them! You should read some of Guido's anecdotes about the ABC language where the developers attempted to change "tried and tested" terms to something they thought would be less esoteric for Luddites to learn -- in the end all they accomplished was to propagate more confusion. Multiplicity should never be a feature in programming languages... There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Actually some could argue that Python breaks this rule many times over and they would be correct! However if you look at a language like Ruby you quickly understand that we rather benign by comparison. However i do believe that IDLE could use a few more beginner enhancements. First, we need to clean up the code base. We cannot keep bolting on features as an afterthought. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:29 AM, flebber wrote: > On Feb 1, 11:38 pm, rantingrick wrote: >> On Feb 1, 4:20 am, flebber wrote: >> >> > Sorry Rick too boringtrying to get bored people to bite at your >> > ultra lame post yawn... >> >> Well reality and truth both has a tendency to be boring. Why? Well >> because we bathe in them daily. We have come accustomed, acclimated, >> and sadly complacent of the ill state of our stdlib. Yes, boring. >> However we must be aware of these things. > > Yes but fixing idle just gives us another editor, there isn't a > shortage of editors. There is a shortage of a common community code > base for an ide framework, logical, reusable and extensible. > > For an example of a brilliant beginners "ide" racket has it covered > with DrRacket http://racket-lang.org/ , it has selectable language > levels beginner, intermediate, advanced that allows the learner to > adjust the level of language features available as they learn, > teachpacks are installable to add extra features or options when > completing the tutorials(could easily be adapted to the python > tutorials). If idle is for teaching people to learn python shouldn't > it have the facility to do that? Python is a general purpose language that's designed to be easy to use. Racket is a language that was designed for teaching programming. It's almost exclusively tied to a single IDE. Something like language levels would be impossible to do in Python unless you re-do the parser. There's no feature that allows you to strip for loops or list comprehensions out of the language. And we already have something better than teachpacks- the import mechanism and the ability to install 3rd party extensions. > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 11:38 pm, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 4:20 am, flebber wrote: > > > Sorry Rick too boringtrying to get bored people to bite at your > > ultra lame post yawn... > > Well reality and truth both has a tendency to be boring. Why? Well > because we bathe in them daily. We have come accustomed, acclimated, > and sadly complacent of the ill state of our stdlib. Yes, boring. > However we must be aware of these things. Yes but fixing idle just gives us another editor, there isn't a shortage of editors. There is a shortage of a common community code base for an ide framework, logical, reusable and extensible. For an example of a brilliant beginners "ide" racket has it covered with DrRacket http://racket-lang.org/ , it has selectable language levels beginner, intermediate, advanced that allows the learner to adjust the level of language features available as they learn, teachpacks are installable to add extra features or options when completing the tutorials(could easily be adapted to the python tutorials). If idle is for teaching people to learn python shouldn't it have the facility to do that? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 2, 9:03 pm, alex23 wrote: > rantingrick wrote: > > Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the > > last he posted was a year ago! > > Wait, I thought you had the approval of the silent majority? > > So once anyone actually posts, they lost the right to be counted, > because only when they shut up can you consider them allies? Lulz, +1 internetz for you -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 20:01:11 -0800, alex23 wrote: > rantingrick wrote: >> No they are trolls and they have demonstrated trollish behavior on many >> occasions. Some have even threatened to kill me. Can you believe that? > > No. Link or it did not happen. Ha ha ha ha, did RR actually say that??? How cute, he thinks "kill file" means murder. Anyway, fun's over... can we all just ignore his childish rants and trolling? You (generic you, not Alex specifically) are only rewarding him for bad behaviour with the attention he craves. If you won't do it for me, do it for your future job prospects. Any future employer who googles you will see you arguing for *days* with a troll. That isn't saying much for your ability to distinguish productive from unproductive tasks :/ Hey Rick, back in June 2010 you promised to fork Python and split the community into the silent majority who support you and the "ivory towers" who disagree with you. How's that working out for you? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mel wrote: > alex23 wrote: > > >> Why is it necessarily for you guys to advertise when you plonk. Just > >> plonk and shut up about it. Nobody cares what you do with your own > >> incoming email. Really, are you that self centered as to think we > >> actually care? > > > > Citation: http://goo.gl/LlBFj > > Actually, FWIW, not everybody advertises plonks. > They should. It's a fun word to read. Jason > >Mel. > > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- Jason M. Swails Quantum Theory Project, University of Florida Ph.D. Graduate Student 352-392-4032 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
alex23 wrote: >> Why is it necessarily for you guys to advertise when you plonk. Just >> plonk and shut up about it. Nobody cares what you do with your own >> incoming email. Really, are you that self centered as to think we >> actually care? > > Citation: http://goo.gl/LlBFj Actually, FWIW, not everybody advertises plonks. Mel. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
rantingrick wrote:
> That is all you have brought to this conversion so far. You have not
> offered solutions for IDLE, heck you don't even inject an opinion of
> IDLE. You just spew bile. Have fun with your new playmates.
>
> py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
Ah, the hypocrisy. It feels like only a few days ago that I read:
> Why is it necessarily for you guys to advertise when you plonk. Just
> plonk and shut up about it. Nobody cares what you do with your own
> incoming email. Really, are you that self centered as to think we
> actually care?
Citation: http://goo.gl/LlBFj
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
rantingrick wrote: > Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the > last he posted was a year ago! Wait, I thought you had the approval of the silent majority? So once anyone actually posts, they lost the right to be counted, because only when they shut up can you consider them allies? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
rantingrick wrote: >Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority. There's a term for people who believe they act with the tacit approval of the majority: megalomania. It's also known as narcissistic personality disorder. > No they are trolls and they have demonstrated trollish behavior on > many occasions. Some have even threatened to kill me. Can you believe > that? No. Link or it did not happen. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 4:45 PM, rantingrick wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2:41 pm, Corey Richardson wrote:
>
> > I don't recall ever doing anything but injecting my honest opinion. If
> > my opinion may be flawed (or appears to be flawed, I usually don't
> > elaborate on my ideas enough), so be it.
>
> Yes you are correct. When i added you to the troll list that was by
> accident. You are obviously not a troll and probably not a flamer
> either. Anyone willing to offer help is a moderate so there you go...
>
You were retorting (in kind) to a post by *not* Corey, then promptly dropped
him in *your* flamer category.
>
> py> moderate_group.append(flamer_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
>
> > Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for
> > improvements?
>
> No because we already have a bug tracker set up for IDLE. Why create
> another one? We just need the "powers that be" to start accepting
> major changes to the IDLE library at hand. There is not even enough
> interest to get minor changes committed. A fork would be the best idea
> however i am not going to start it alone. If someone else wants to
> start a fork be my guest, i will be happy to help out once the fork is
> established.
>
Why not start the fork yourself? Do you think that it will not be accepted
after you've sunk time into the project? This sounds like someone who is
not convinced the project is worth doing in the first place. Also, consider
it a slight element of risk. Lots of people have written code that has
ultimately found no (or little) use; you call for wide, sweeping changes to
the IDLE code base yet require someone else to actually make the leap before
you do. Visionaries don't call for something, then wait for someone to
start it before jumping on the bandwagon (i.e. MLK...).
>
> However i am always very reluctant to start these things because the
> powers that be have not even expressed even the *smallest* interest in
> change. Sure Raymond, and Terry are interested but how about the
> others? We have yet to hear from the other BIG players. All we have
> gotten so far is trolling, threating, and negativity from a few very
> loud naysayers.
>
Perhaps they haven't expressed any interest in change because they have no
vested interest in it. Where's the interest if you don't use IDLE at all?
I have never once used it (I did open it up for the first time at the start
of the thread to see what it was, even), but its existence/non-existence
makes no difference in my daily usage/preference for anything python. You
could remove IDLE altogether and I'd not have noticed. VIM provides me with
all the syntax highlighting I need. I'll admit that it's sometimes more
convenient to have an interactive python shell that supports syntax
highlighting, but IDLE does that just fine. The way I see it, if it works
for what it's needed for and you're overall uninterested in its source code,
you have little stake in spending any time on it. I think you'd be mad to
try and learn Tkinter by looking in idlelib, anyway; even if the code wasn't
so crufty.
> Now, after all this uphill battle i have fought only two brave souls
> (Corey and Richard) have showed an interest in actually doing
> something. And believe me i thank them! These are great people! But
> were is the blessing from on high? Where is Steve Holden on this? Is
> he too busy with $295.00 per session O-Reilly classes to stop by and
> give his blessing. Were is py-dev on this? I know these folks have
>
This is probably not important to them (or they're still recovering from
your Tkinter roast and don't want to look at another roast of a project that
uses said package you so publicly berated). They're not required to have a
vested interest in anything and everything falling inside stdlib. It's
still quite large, as much as they try to keep it lean.
> *real* work to do however a quick "we're with you guys!", or a simple
>
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fishing%20for%20compliments
> "break a leg!" would be very helpful.
>
If *we* were to dig up your previous posts (here and on Tkinter), we'd see
numerous examples where you've been told almost this very thing, only to
have you question "why you deserved such treatment".
(Who knows what *we* means)
> Are we not worthy of a simple:
>
> "Yes, improving IDLE's code base sounds good to me."
>
I don't think *improving* anything ever sounds bad to anyone. ever.
Therefore, you're simply left with trying to convince people that the
*changes* are really *improvements*.
>
> or a simple:
>
> "Sorry, i don't think we should worry about that because X,Y,Z."
>
> Come on Guido we need your input already! If some big players would
> show even the smallest support for improving IDLE (or any module) then
> that positivity would propagate down to the rest of us. The naysayers
> would stop trolling and the silent majority would start getting
> involved.
>
How do you know that such a majority exists if it is s
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-01-31, rantingrick wrote: > IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation. > -- by Rick Johnson RR's postings are generally tossed out by my score file, but after seeing so many replies, my morbid curiousity finally got the best of me, and I read (well, mostly) RR's posting on what's wrong with IDLE. > -- rr: disappointed and annoyed! Shocker. We'll take it as read that I made some joke at this point involving one of the definitions of "idle" as meaning running your motor and not going anywhere... -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! My uncle Murray at conquered Egypt in 53 B.C. gmail.comAnd I can prove it too!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 2, 2:41 pm, Corey Richardson wrote:
> I don't recall ever doing anything but injecting my honest opinion. If
> my opinion may be flawed (or appears to be flawed, I usually don't
> elaborate on my ideas enough), so be it.
Yes you are correct. When i added you to the troll list that was by
accident. You are obviously not a troll and probably not a flamer
either. Anyone willing to offer help is a moderate so there you go...
py> moderate_group.append(flamer_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
> Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for
> improvements?
No because we already have a bug tracker set up for IDLE. Why create
another one? We just need the "powers that be" to start accepting
major changes to the IDLE library at hand. There is not even enough
interest to get minor changes committed. A fork would be the best idea
however i am not going to start it alone. If someone else wants to
start a fork be my guest, i will be happy to help out once the fork is
established.
However i am always very reluctant to start these things because the
powers that be have not even expressed even the *smallest* interest in
change. Sure Raymond, and Terry are interested but how about the
others? We have yet to hear from the other BIG players. All we have
gotten so far is trolling, threating, and negativity from a few very
loud naysayers.
Now, after all this uphill battle i have fought only two brave souls
(Corey and Richard) have showed an interest in actually doing
something. And believe me i thank them! These are great people! But
were is the blessing from on high? Where is Steve Holden on this? Is
he too busy with $295.00 per session O-Reilly classes to stop by and
give his blessing. Were is py-dev on this? I know these folks have
*real* work to do however a quick "we're with you guys!", or a simple
"break a leg!" would be very helpful.
And last but not least, were oh were has our BDFL gone? For years he
has hidden his face from us at c.l.py. We have walked in the shadows
for far too long Guido. Were is YOUR opinion on these things. When
will you weigh in on these very important issues? When!
Are we not worthy of a simple:
"Yes, improving IDLE's code base sounds good to me."
or a simple:
"Sorry, i don't think we should worry about that because X,Y,Z."
Come on Guido we need your input already! If some big players would
show even the smallest support for improving IDLE (or any module) then
that positivity would propagate down to the rest of us. The naysayers
would stop trolling and the silent majority would start getting
involved.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-02-02 16:11:26 -0500, Terry Reedy said: On 2/1/2011 7:46 PM, Corey Richardson wrote: On 02/01/2011 07:42 PM, Robert wrote: On 2011-02-01 10:54:26 -0500, Terry Reedy said: Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move? Unclear. Many want immediately, I would help with such a project as well, given the opportunity. You both might sign up to idle-sig list. Or 'subscribe' to gmane.comp.python.idle newsgroup mirror. Current traffic is 0. And thank you both for chiming in. It is encouraging. Well, I am about to sign up for the Steve Holden O'Reilly classes to learn Python and I know doing something in Tkinter is part of that. I also have the old Grayson book (just wish Pmw wasn't in there so much). So this would be a good follow on to the class to keep me learning Python at a steady pace. :-) -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Emile van Sebille wrote: > ActivePython 2.6.1.1 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on > Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec 5 2008, 13:58:38) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] > on > win32 > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. import sys sys.ps1 > '>>> ' sys.ps1="py>" > py> I know how to do it already, thanks, but I've never seen it native. ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/2/2011 1:09 PM Noah Hall said...
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:44 PM, rantingrick wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:23 am, rantingrick wrote:
py> troll_group.append("Red John")
py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
Out of interest, what interpretor uses "py>"?
I've never seen any. Just sayin'.
ActivePython 2.6.1.1 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec 5 2008, 13:58:38) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
(Intel)] on
win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> sys.ps1
'>>> '
>>> sys.ps1="py>"
py>
--
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Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/1/2011 7:46 PM, Corey Richardson wrote: On 02/01/2011 07:42 PM, Robert wrote: On 2011-02-01 10:54:26 -0500, Terry Reedy said: Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move? Unclear. Many want immediately, I would help with such a project as well, given the opportunity. You both might sign up to idle-sig list. Or 'subscribe' to gmane.comp.python.idle newsgroup mirror. Current traffic is 0. And thank you both for chiming in. It is encouraging. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:44 PM, rantingrick wrote:
>> On Feb 1, 11:23 am, rantingrick wrote:
>> > py> troll_group.append("Red John")
> py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
Out of interest, what interpretor uses "py>"?
I've never seen any. Just sayin'.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/2/2011 2:44 PM, rantingrick wrote:
[snip]
py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
Your moving up Corey. Keep up the good work!
I don't recall ever doing anything but injecting my honest opinion. If
my opinion may be flawed (or appears to be flawed, I usually don't
elaborate on my ideas enough), so be it.
Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for
improvements?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 2, 12:12 pm, Red John wrote:
> On Feb 1, 11:23 am, rantingrick wrote:
>
> > Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
> > last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
> > category...
>
> > py> troll_group.append("Red John")
>
> I realize that not agreeing with you is enough to be labeled a troll -
> which is fine with me, a lot of my favorite posters were in that
> group :) - but I fail to see how it's relevant that I prefer reading
> others' ideas.
Here let me show you why you find yourself in the company of trolls...
Red John said:
> Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
> annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is
> saying something because I used to frequent 4chan.
That is all you have brought to this conversion so far. You have not
offered solutions for IDLE, heck you don't even inject an opinion of
IDLE. You just spew bile. Have fun with your new playmates.
py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))
Your moving up Corey. Keep up the good work!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 11:23 am, rantingrick wrote:
> Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
> last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
> category...
>
> py> troll_group.append("Red John")
I realize that not agreeing with you is enough to be labeled a troll -
which is fine with me, a lot of my favorite posters were in that
group :) - but I fail to see how it's relevant that I prefer reading
others' ideas.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
What does Chopin have to do with IDLE? And can you put me on your troll group? It looks like a pretty fun bunch. On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 09:26 -0800, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 10:29 am, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > > I hope everyone will > > excuse me now, I must dash off to slit my wrists in a tub of warm water > > and listen to Free Bird, > > Free Bird! hmm, I would have chosen Chopin's nocturne 48-1 or 72-1 if > i was feeling rather melancholy at the moment. Then there is always > the funeral march if you really want to lay it on thick. However the > march does have a rather lengthy "hopeful" section that may make you > give second thoughts. Or perhaps the Berceuse in D-flat Major as a > final glorious celebration of life as one journeys beyond the edge of > transcendence. If there is a heaven it must sound like this... > >http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8TQ-AXJZqtg > > ...only a man who suffered so greatly can know what true beauty is. > RIP Chopin. > > If you're going to met your end it should be at least to a piece that > is truly timeless -- not some reefer+jack induced rockabilly ballad! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5jKMEB4hHE
On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 10:23 -0800, rantingrick wrote:
> On Feb 1, 11:52 am, Red John wrote:
>
> > Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
> > annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is saying
> > something because I used to frequent 4chan.
>
> Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
> last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
> category...
>
> py> troll_group.append("Red John")
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 9:39 am, rantingrick wrote: > IDLE: cornucopia ... > These are just the top of the list. The peak of a huge iceberg that > threatens to sink the community in the arms of chaos never to return. That being said, I've taught a lot of people Python using IDLE. It's a surprisingly productive environment and has a near-zero learning curve. > I am beginning to believe that this community is either made of > amateurs due to this lackluster code in the stdlib. However it could > be that the folks are really professional and refuse to work on such a > horrible code base (which i understand). I am going with the latter. Patches are welcome :-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 02/01/2011 07:42 PM, Robert wrote: > On 2011-02-01 10:54:26 -0500, Terry Reedy said: > >> On 2/1/2011 12:13 AM, rantingrick wrote: >>> On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: Rick, >> >>> Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we >>> should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning >>> resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the >>> code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like >>> textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into >>> the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the >>> "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. >> >> Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. >> Maybe by then, you will have had your fun and be ready to work. Maybe >> Kevin would help a bit. > > If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move? > I would help with such a project as well, given the opportunity. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-02-01 10:54:26 -0500, Terry Reedy said: On 2/1/2011 12:13 AM, rantingrick wrote: On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: Rick, Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. Maybe by then, you will have had your fun and be ready to work. Maybe Kevin would help a bit. If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move? Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the tracker. Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well. There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better automated testing would be very useful. +1 for the UI update +1 for more tests -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 02/01/2011 08:26 AM, Noah Hall wrote: > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:14 PM, rantingrick wrote: >> #-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --# > These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just > don't agree with you. I strongly disagree with rr and find him to be an egotistical troll who likes to hear the sound of his own, er, typing. Hence I'm disappointed that I'm not on his list. His posts really cause me to be conflicted. On the one hand they are fascinating in the train-wreck sense, on the other hand my replying to this perpetuates his ranting. Sigh. Consider yourself fed, rr. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 2, 4:14 am, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 8:27 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant > wrote: > > > In a more serious way, just count the people who second your > > prosposition. It's around 0. It is usually a good sign that you're > > wrong. This rule kinda applies to anyone, don't take it personnaly. > > Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority. Are you > telling me that this sloth of trolls, minions, and flamers that have > so far replied are represetative of this fine community. As a member of this silent majority - we care less about IDLEs code quality than all the others that did actually care enough to even reply to you. Now stop your annoying trolling and either start working on your IDLE fork or shut up. Nobody else who agrees with you (there might be someone out there) has been ever been motivated enough to initiate this work by themselves, so unless YOU start it - it probably is never going to happen. Once it is underway you might attract some other people interested in helping to refactor or recode IDLE - but you won't know that unless you start work on it. But I think we all know exactly what you are actually going to keep doing though. -- Cheers Anton -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 02/01/2011 03:05 PM, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 1:35 pm, John Nagle wrote: >> On 1/31/2011 2:17 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote: >> >>> It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE... >> >> The future of "playing with Python" is probably Python in a browser >> window, of which there are several implementations. > > Hello John, > > I found skulpt which looks rather interesting. > > http://www.skulpt.org/ > > Why do we not have a version of this at python.org so people can get a > feel for python right away. Ruby has that "Learn Ruby in 20 Minutes" > thing and so should we. > > Do you have any links to projects such as this one that you like to > share, John? > http://people.csail.mit.edu/pgbovine/python/ Not quite an interpreter, and certainly has its limits, for example, it will only let you run so many steps before not letting you go on. I think it's a decent learning tool, but the visualisation is what makes it shine, IMO. That version uses python 2.5, there is also a version that uses python 3.1: http://netserv.ict.ru.ac.za/python3_viz/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 1:35 pm, John Nagle wrote: > On 1/31/2011 2:17 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote: > > > It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE... > > The future of "playing with Python" is probably Python in a browser > window, of which there are several implementations. Hello John, I found skulpt which looks rather interesting. http://www.skulpt.org/ Why do we not have a version of this at python.org so people can get a feel for python right away. Ruby has that "Learn Ruby in 20 Minutes" thing and so should we. Do you have any links to projects such as this one that you like to share, John? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 1/31/2011 2:17 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote: It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE... The future of "playing with Python" is probably Python in a browser window, of which there are several implementations. If you're doing anything serious, you're using a programmer's editor or an IDE. IDLE lives in a narrowing niche between those two points. Maybe it should be killed off. John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/1/2011 11:18 AM, rantingrick wrote: Well the best attribute of IDLE is backward compatibility -- there is none to worry about. IDLE is not a module with an interface, it's just a tool. So we could change anything we want without worry of causing code breakage. There is not good reason NOT to fix IDLE. That is similar to my view. Of course, there will be an tracker issue and list discussion for any major change. I have even thought it should perhaps be moved to the Tools/ directory, but installation of that is optional. Google codesearch can be used to see what, if anything, anyone imports from idlelib. Agreed. Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg" so i can study up on this topic? Thanks Joel Spolsky's tutorial is highly regarded as an easier intro than the reference manual. I am about to reread it myself. http://hginit.com/ -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
In the grand scope of things...you're all boring. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
rantingrick wrote: > Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg" > so i can study up on this topic ? http://mercurial.selenic.com/ -- Stanley C. Kitching Human Being Phoenix, Arizona -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 11:52 am, Red John wrote:
> Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
> annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is saying
> something because I used to frequent 4chan.
Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
category...
py> troll_group.append("Red John")
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-02-01 00:13:06 -0500, rantingrick said: On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. Just small steps Kevin. It all starts with babysteps. At least we would be doing something. Currently we are sitting around waiting for a miracle to happen, and problems are solved by methods, not miracles! Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well. Fork it and do it! -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 10:26 am, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 10:29 am, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > > I hope everyone will > > excuse me now, I must dash off to slit my wrists in a tub of warm water > > and listen to Free Bird, > > Free Bird! hmm, I would have chosen Chopin's nocturne 48-1 or 72-1 if > i was feeling rather melancholy at the moment. Then there is always > the funeral march if you really want to lay it on thick. However the > march does have a rather lengthy "hopeful" section that may make you > give second thoughts. Or perhaps the Berceuse in D-flat Major as a > final glorious celebration of life as one journeys beyond the edge of > transcendence. If there is a heaven it must sound like this... > > http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8TQ-AXJZqtg > > ...only a man who suffered so greatly can know what true beauty is. > RIP Chopin. > > If you're going to met your end it should be at least to a piece that > is truly timeless -- not some reefer+jack induced rockabilly ballad! Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is saying something because I used to frequent 4chan. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 10:29 am, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > I hope everyone will > excuse me now, I must dash off to slit my wrists in a tub of warm water > and listen to Free Bird, Free Bird! hmm, I would have chosen Chopin's nocturne 48-1 or 72-1 if i was feeling rather melancholy at the moment. Then there is always the funeral march if you really want to lay it on thick. However the march does have a rather lengthy "hopeful" section that may make you give second thoughts. Or perhaps the Berceuse in D-flat Major as a final glorious celebration of life as one journeys beyond the edge of transcendence. If there is a heaven it must sound like this... http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8TQ-AXJZqtg ...only a man who suffered so greatly can know what true beauty is. RIP Chopin. If you're going to met your end it should be at least to a piece that is truly timeless -- not some reefer+jack induced rockabilly ballad! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
>See now you are offering truth in your argument! Keep this up and i'll >move you over to the occasional flamers group. Then over time, if you >can demonstrate an ability to engage in lively discussion based on >facts and not emotion, i *may* even move you into the moderates group. O no, whatever shall I do. I apparently have no hope of being moved into the moderates group because I don't agree with him. I hope everyone will excuse me now, I must dash off to slit my wrists in a tub of warm water and listen to Free Bird, while morning over the fact that I may *never* get moved into RR's moderate's group. Tisk tisk. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 9:54 am, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 2/1/2011 12:13 AM, rantingrick wrote: > > > On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: > >> Rick, > > Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we > > should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning > > resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the > > code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like > > textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into > > the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the > > "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. > > Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. Well the best attribute of IDLE is backward compatibility -- there is none to worry about. IDLE is not a module with an interface, it's just a tool. So we could change anything we want without worry of causing code breakage. There is not good reason NOT to fix IDLE. > Maybe Kevin would help a bit. I was hoping he would get involved however his last post proved otherwise. I know he has his own projects however he would have been a valuable asset for the ttk theming stuff. > Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing > list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The > first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the > tracker. Agreed. Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg" so i can study up on this topic? Thanks > > Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well. > > There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk > widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and > tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better > automated testing would be very useful. Yes "turning on" the themes would be a huge improvement. I also wished IDLE would look better. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/1/11 10:54 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: Maybe Kevin would help a bit. Probably not--IDLE is good enough for my needs. I've submitted some (rather extensive) patches for things that annoyed me and got in my way, and they eventually made it in. (The classic open source pathway--scratching my own itch.) Beyond that, though, hacking on IDLE isn't a project I have time for. --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 9:26 am, Noah Hall wrote: > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:14 PM, rantingrick wrote: > > #-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --# > > Steven D'Aprano(smart and witty (annoying) troll) > > Stephan Hansen (controversy troll) > > Ben Finny (haughty troll) > > alex23(angry/dangerous troll) > > Tyler Littlefeild(confused troll) > > Bryan ? (annoying troll) > > Corey Richarson > > Nicholas Devenish > > Alexander Kapps > > rusi ? > > Andre ? > > Geremy Condra (troll-wagoneer) > > Ethan Furman > > Noah Hall > > Adam Skutt > > Arndt Rodger Schnieder > > Mark Roseman (Tkinter's minion) > > These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just > don't agree with you. No they are trolls and they have demonstrated trollish behavior on many occasions. Some have even threatened to kill me. Can you believe that? If you will look over my moderate list you will see that many do not agree with me completely however they express their disagreement in a moderate way. On the other hand the trolls and flamers just hurl insults and inflammatory speech. The trolls and flamers don't offer any argument to back up their statements. They only hurl more emotional bile. > And on the topic of IDLE, I agree the coding's not great, See now you are offering truth in your argument! Keep this up and i'll move you over to the occasional flamers group. Then over time, if you can demonstrate an ability to engage in lively discussion based on facts and not emotion, i *may* even move you into the moderates group. I believe in every troll there is a rational person just waiting to break free. > but I > disagree with it being a problem for the Python community. I've never, > ever seen a thread saying "OMG, WHAT DOES THIS IDLE SOURCE CODE > EXTRACT MEAN? PLEASE HELP, Thats because even the maintainers of IDLE don't understand completely how it works. It is a true nightmare of code horror -- of *epic* proportions! > I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IDLE, THEREFORE I CAN > NOT USE Tkinter! I'm leaving Python, Visual Basic's for me from now > on! NO DAMN IDLE TO MESS UP EVERYTHING, YOU SEE?" Well this would be expected of an emotionally driven creature. One who cannot wield the tools of reason and logic. I pity these poor souls just as i pity the trolls in the troll group. But like they say: When your at the bottom there is only one direction to go... Strait up! Sadly some of these folks may be suffering from gimbal lock with their up vector pointing strait down. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2/1/2011 12:13 AM, rantingrick wrote: On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: Rick, Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will. Maybe by then, you will have had your fun and be ready to work. Maybe Kevin would help a bit. Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the tracker. Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well. There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better automated testing would be very useful. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:14 PM, rantingrick wrote: > #-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --# > Steven D'Aprano(smart and witty (annoying) troll) > Stephan Hansen (controversy troll) > Ben Finny (haughty troll) > alex23(angry/dangerous troll) > Tyler Littlefeild(confused troll) > Bryan ? (annoying troll) > Corey Richarson > Nicholas Devenish > Alexander Kapps > rusi ? > Andre ? > Geremy Condra (troll-wagoneer) > Ethan Furman > Noah Hall > Adam Skutt > Arndt Rodger Schnieder > Mark Roseman (Tkinter's minion) These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just don't agree with you. And on the topic of IDLE, I agree the coding's not great, but I disagree with it being a problem for the Python community. I've never, ever seen a thread saying "OMG, WHAT DOES THIS IDLE SOURCE CODE EXTRACT MEAN? PLEASE HELP, I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IDLE, THEREFORE I CAN NOT USE Tkinter! I'm leaving Python, Visual Basic's for me from now on! NO DAMN IDLE TO MESS UP EVERYTHING, YOU SEE?" -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 8:27 am, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote: > In a more serious way, just count the people who second your > prosposition. It's around 0. It is usually a good sign that you're > wrong. This rule kinda applies to anyone, don't take it personnaly. Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority. Are you telling me that this sloth of trolls, minions, and flamers that have so far replied are represetative of this fine community. Gawd i hope NOT!. Here is a list of the compiled personalities... #-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --# Steven D'Aprano(smart and witty (annoying) troll) Stephan Hansen (controversy troll) Ben Finny (haughty troll) alex23(angry/dangerous troll) Tyler Littlefeild(confused troll) Bryan ? (annoying troll) Corey Richarson Nicholas Devenish Alexander Kapps rusi ? Andre ? Geremy Condra (troll-wagoneer) Ethan Furman Noah Hall Adam Skutt Arndt Rodger Schnieder Mark Roseman (Tkinter's minion) #-- Occasonal Flamers --# Micheal Torrie Grant Edwards MRAB Thomas L Shinnink Peter Otten Giampaolo Rodola Giacomo Boffi malcom ? Zeissmann Mel Owen Jacobson Robert ? #-- Complete Nobodys --# Bill Felton flebber #-- MIA --# GvR Steve Holden #-- Moderates --# Richard Johnson Terry Reedy Kevin Walzer Octavian Rasnita Robert Kern Brenden Simon Tommy Grav Martin V Leowis Ian ? Tim Chase CM Bob Martin Neil Hodgenson Robin Dunn Benjamin Kaplan Jerry Hill Patty ? Martin Gregorie Albert van der Horst Martin P Hellwig jmfauth Steven Howe Antoine Pitrou Hank Fay Katie T Gerry Reno Stefen Behnel 26 moderates 31 trolls, minions, sockpuppets, and or flamers 2 missing in action = This community needs serious help! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
Man you're a real comedian. This is a hilarious thread. Keep up the good work! On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 05:38 -0800, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 6:53 am, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > > If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that > > support Python; move on. > > Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code > in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
rantingrick wrote: On Feb 1, 6:53 am, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that support Python; move on. Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us! Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby trolls in OUR mailing list ? Fortunately, the behavior of one does not reflect the behavior of us all. In a more serious way, just count the people who second your prosposition. It's around 0. It is usually a good sign that you're wrong. This rule kinda applies to anyone, don't take it personnaly. ... or maybe you're just trolling, in which case you can thank me for feeding. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Tuesday, February 1, 2011 9:38:26 AM UTC-4, Richard "rantingrick" Johnson wrote: > On Feb 1, 6:53 am, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > > If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that > > support Python; move on. > > Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code > in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us! Could you enlighten us and tell us what code YOU contributed to the stdlib? André -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 6:53 am, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that > support Python; move on. Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 04:38 -0800, rantingrick wrote: > On Feb 1, 4:20 am, flebber wrote: > > Sorry Rick too boringtrying to get bored people to bite at your > > ultra lame post yawn... > Well reality and truth both has a tendency to be boring. Even more true of pointless and drawn-out pontificating. If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that support Python; move on. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 4:20 am, flebber wrote: > Sorry Rick too boringtrying to get bored people to bite at your > ultra lame post yawn... Well reality and truth both has a tendency to be boring. Why? Well because we bathe in them daily. We have come accustomed, acclimated, and sadly complacent of the ill state of our stdlib. Yes, boring. However we must be aware of these things. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 4:39 am, rantingrick wrote: > IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation. > -- by Rick Johnson > > IDLE --which is the Python Integrated Development and Learning > Environment-- was once the apple of Guido's eye but has since > degenerated into madness many years ago and remains now as the shining > jewel "show piece" on the proverbial python wall of shame. A once > mighty dream of "programming for everyone" that is now nothing more > than an example of "how NOT to program". > > IDLE contains some of the worst code this community has created. Bad > design patterns, tacked on functionality, blasphemous styling, and > piss poor packaging. There seems to be no guiding goals or game-plan. > And year after year if IDLE *does* get any attention it's just more > haphazard code thrown into the mix by someone who has gone blind from > reading the source. However we cannot blame the current maintainer (if > any such even exists!) because NOBODY can maintains such a spaghetti > mess that this package has become! > > If we would have had a proper game plan from day one i believe we > could have avoided this catastrophe. Follows is an outline of the > wrongs with some suggestions to right them... > > * First of all the main two modules "PyShell" and "EditorWindow" are > laid out in such a non sequential way that it is virtually impossible > to follow along. We should have had a proper app instance from which > all widgets where combined. The main app should have followed a > "common sense" sequential mentality of... > > * subclassing the tk.Toplevel > * initializing instance variables > * creating the main menu > * creating the sub widgets > * declaring internal methods > * declaring event handlers > * then interface/generic methods. > > This is the recipe for order AND NOT CHAOS! What we have now is utter > chaos! When we have order we can read source code in a sequential > fashion. When we have order we can comprehend what we read. And when > we have order we can maintain a library/package with ease. However > sadly we DO NOT have order, we have CHAOS, CHAOS, and more CHAOS! > > * The underlying sub widgets should have started with their own proper > order of "declared" initialization. And all events should be handled > in the widget at hand NOT outsourced to some other class! > > * One of the biggest design flaws is the fact that outside modules > manipulate the main editor/pyshells events. This is a terrible way to > code. For example the AutoCompleteWindow takes over the tab event > > #-- Puesdo Code --# > # in editor window __init__ > self.autocomplete = AutoComplete(blah) > # in editor window onKeyPress(blah) > if key == 'Tab' and blah: > self.autocomplete.show_tip(blah) > elif key == 'Escape' and acw.is_visibe(): > self.autocomplete.hide() > > This is a bad design! The main editor window should handle all its > own events AND THEN call outside class methods when needed. We don't > want "Mommy" classes telling the kids what to do, when to eat, when to > sleep, and when to excrete! We should create our objects with the > virtue of self reliance and responsibility!. The Colorizer, > ParenMatch, textView, TreeWidget, CallTips, and many other modules are > guilty of "event stealing" also. Event functionality must be handled > in the widget itself, NOT stolen and handled in an outside class. When > we split up sequential code we get CHAOS! > > * Another bad choice was creating custom reusable widgets > (Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, etc...) and leaving them in > idlelib. These should have been moved into the lib-tk module where > they would be more visible to python programmers AND we could reduce > the cruft in the idlelib! Remember, when we create more files, > folders, and objects we create CHAOS. And nobody can learn from CHAOS! > > * Another blasphemy is the fact that every module should include some > sort of test to display its usage. If the module is a GUI widget then > you MUST show how to use the widget in a window. Sadly like all > everything else, idlelib is devoid of examples and testing. And the > very few tests that DO exists just blow chunks! > > * Last but not least idlelib does not follow PEP8 or ANY convention. > So much so that it seems the developers snubbed their nose at such > conventions! We are missing doc strings and comments. We have built- > ins being re-bound! Just code horror after code horror. > > These are just the top of the list. The peak of a huge iceberg that > threatens to sink the community in the arms of chaos never to return. > I am beginning to believe that this community is either made of > amateurs due to this lackluster code in the stdlib. However it could > be that the folks are really professional and refuse to work on such a > horrible code base (which i understand). I am going with the latter. > > When are we going to demand that these abominations be rectified? How > much longer must we wait? A year?
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 11:14 am, rusi wrote: > On Feb 1, 1:35 am, Raymond Hettinger wrote: snipped O O wrong thread... sorry! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Feb 1, 1:35 am, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > However, even the parts of the standard library written in pure Python > don't seem to be getting read anymore, so I'm still inclined to > attribute the issue to 1) inconvenient placement of source code, > 2) a largish code base, and 3) possibly a cultural shift. There is another thread running where this was said (by a python developer?) > Actually I don't even understand how can IDLE source code quality have > anything to do with python success or future adoption, as you implied > in your statements. > High priority bugs get fixed first. IDLE source code is clearly not a > high priority issue, hence it doesn't get fixed: end of story. Now if we can put aside for a moment the fact that the person to whom this was said specializes in the art of raising others' blood pressures and making them say what they may not otherwise have said, it should be clear that this priority is at cross purposes with Raymond's. In short (at the risk of belonging to the equivalence class of others whose names start with R) I would suggest a 4th point: Code cruft Please note: I am thankful to all python devs for giving me python. Its just that when functionality becomes as large as it is for python and the target is fast moving, keeping code spic and span will generally be perceived to be a priority that has crossed the point of diminishing returns. Consequence: noobs have a higher barrier to entry than earlier -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 1/31/11 9:26 PM, rantingrick wrote: > Oh, and Trish, if you are out there and you would like a "personal" > introduction to Python programming i would be very happy to give you > some very, very, private lessons using my python... > . > . > . > . > . > interpretor. *wink* > > ;-) You are disgusting. If Trish Gray were here, I'd offer a sincere apology on behalf of the community for you. Which is ironic, considering how one of my major complaints about you is your audacity to claim to speak for "We", "The Community". But I have to hope we're better then this. Disgusting. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 9:24 pm, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote: > Actually I don't even understand how can IDLE source code quality have > anything to do with python success or future adoption, as you implied > in your statements. Well thats because you are not looking at this from the correct perspective. Every piece of code, every module, every documentation, every community grudge reflects on us in positive and negative ways. And the IDLE library is reflecting pretty badly on us. The IDLE library is making us look like a bunch of two bit script kiddies who cannot even follow our own philosophies. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 4:38 pm, Robert wrote: > I think it would be interesting as well. H, I am about to do the > O'Reilly series that Steve Holden did for Python. Did you see the video Steve Holden did with Trish Gray? Just for fun fast forward to 0:03:30. Just as Trish comments about Python diversity Steve gets all shook up... man you could cut the tension with a knife!!! http://www.oreillyschool.com/courses/python1/ Oh, and Trish, if you are out there and you would like a "personal" introduction to Python programming i would be very happy to give you some very, very, private lessons using my python... . . . . . interpretor. *wink* ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 4:17 pm, Kevin Walzer wrote: > Rick, > > I've spent a fair amount of time in the IDLE source tree, putting > together patches for various Mac-specific bugs and submitting them to > the Python tracker, and I agree the code is crufty and disorganized. It > is certainly not an example of current best practices in Tkinter > development. The code base has accrued over the years, has been touched > by many, many different hands, and I think its current messy state > reflects that legacy. Thanks for admitting this. Some people refuse to see the truth! > But, as I understand it, the purpose of IDLE is not to provide a > pedagogical example of Tkinter programming practices, but instead to > provide a lightweight development environment for those learning Python, > to interactively explore different aspects of Python. For this it serves > its purpose well. I use IDLE a good deal for my Python development work, > and the cruftiness of the code under the hood is not an impediment to me > getting my work done (unless the work is patching IDLE itself). Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the "event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. Just small steps Kevin. It all starts with babysteps. At least we would be doing something. Currently we are sitting around waiting for a miracle to happen, and problems are solved by methods, not miracles! > Given this, I don't see any huge need to bulldoze IDLE to the ground and > replace it with something else, or even do massive rewrites of the code, > unless such a project also significantly improved the user-facing > portions of IDLE as well. Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
2011/1/31 rantingrick : > In an ideal world it should be the first place you look when wanting > to learn how to build medium sized GUI projects with the built-in > Tkinter module. I wouldn't do that, and thankfully in the *real* world what is considered more important usually gets more attention. If instead of ranting nonsense all day long you would spend a little bit of your time by taking a look at how crowded the python bug tracker already is, you would discover an interesting thing which goes under the name of "priority". High priority bugs get fixed first. IDLE source code is clearly not a high priority issue, hence it doesn't get fixed: end of story. Actually I don't even understand how can IDLE source code quality have anything to do with python success or future adoption, as you implied in your statements. And why do you care so much anyway? You have spent the past 5 days blabbing about how bad Tkinter is, how ugly and useless it is nowadays, and now you suddenly care about IDLE source code quality? Do you have any idea how ridiculous this looks from the outside? > However the reality is ANYTHING but ideal. The code is > rotten to the core, full of inconsistencies and just very unpythonic. 99% of the times the right answer to this statement is "go file a bug and possibly provide a patch" but not in your case since it's clear that you have absolutely no interest in resolving *anything*, let alone actually write some code, assuming you're able to do so in the first place. >> Personally I've never looked into idlelib directory for 7 years in a row at >> all. >> I was probably doing some other things, I don't know, but now I'm >> definitively gonna start looking for a new language because it's clear >> that any language having a directory called "idlelib" within such a >> horrible source code is not gonna last for long. > > Well not unless we do something about it. It is high time to stop > patching, bolting on, and future extending the suffering of this > horrendous code base. It is time to pull the plug, let it die, and > start fresh. Start from a real python perspective. We can learn from > past mistakes and build something much better. But will we? Do we have > the community spirit to take on this challenge? Do we as a community > have any fire left or have we collectively waxed cold? How can you possibly not understand that I was being sarcastic? --- Giampaolo http://code.google.com/p/pyftpdlib/ http://code.google.com/p/psutil/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 1/31/11 10:12 AM, rantingrick wrote: > -- rr: disappointed and annoyed! tl;dr You did this one before, I swear. You're running out of material. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
alias idle='vim' : D On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 09:39 -0800, rantingrick wrote: > IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation. > -- by Rick Johnson > > > IDLE --which is the Python Integrated Development and Learning > Environment-- was once the apple of Guido's eye but has since > degenerated into madness many years ago and remains now as the shining > jewel "show piece" on the proverbial python wall of shame. A once > mighty dream of "programming for everyone" that is now nothing more > than an example of "how NOT to program". > > IDLE contains some of the worst code this community has created. Bad > design patterns, tacked on functionality, blasphemous styling, and > piss poor packaging. There seems to be no guiding goals or game-plan. > And year after year if IDLE *does* get any attention it's just more > haphazard code thrown into the mix by someone who has gone blind from > reading the source. However we cannot blame the current maintainer (if > any such even exists!) because NOBODY can maintains such a spaghetti > mess that this package has become! > > If we would have had a proper game plan from day one i believe we > could have avoided this catastrophe. Follows is an outline of the > wrongs with some suggestions to right them... > > * First of all the main two modules "PyShell" and "EditorWindow" are > laid out in such a non sequential way that it is virtually impossible > to follow along. We should have had a proper app instance from which > all widgets where combined. The main app should have followed a > "common sense" sequential mentality of... > > * subclassing the tk.Toplevel > * initializing instance variables > * creating the main menu > * creating the sub widgets > * declaring internal methods > * declaring event handlers > * then interface/generic methods. > > This is the recipe for order AND NOT CHAOS! What we have now is utter > chaos! When we have order we can read source code in a sequential > fashion. When we have order we can comprehend what we read. And when > we have order we can maintain a library/package with ease. However > sadly we DO NOT have order, we have CHAOS, CHAOS, and more CHAOS! > > * The underlying sub widgets should have started with their own proper > order of "declared" initialization. And all events should be handled > in the widget at hand NOT outsourced to some other class! > > * One of the biggest design flaws is the fact that outside modules > manipulate the main editor/pyshells events. This is a terrible way to > code. For example the AutoCompleteWindow takes over the tab event > > #-- Puesdo Code --# > # in editor window __init__ > self.autocomplete = AutoComplete(blah) > # in editor window onKeyPress(blah) > if key == 'Tab' and blah: > self.autocomplete.show_tip(blah) > elif key == 'Escape' and acw.is_visibe(): > self.autocomplete.hide() > > This is a bad design! The main editor window should handle all its > own events AND THEN call outside class methods when needed. We don't > want "Mommy" classes telling the kids what to do, when to eat, when to > sleep, and when to excrete! We should create our objects with the > virtue of self reliance and responsibility!. The Colorizer, > ParenMatch, textView, TreeWidget, CallTips, and many other modules are > guilty of "event stealing" also. Event functionality must be handled > in the widget itself, NOT stolen and handled in an outside class. When > we split up sequential code we get CHAOS! > > * Another bad choice was creating custom reusable widgets > (Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, etc...) and leaving them in > idlelib. These should have been moved into the lib-tk module where > they would be more visible to python programmers AND we could reduce > the cruft in the idlelib! Remember, when we create more files, > folders, and objects we create CHAOS. And nobody can learn from CHAOS! > > * Another blasphemy is the fact that every module should include some > sort of test to display its usage. If the module is a GUI widget then > you MUST show how to use the widget in a window. Sadly like all > everything else, idlelib is devoid of examples and testing. And the > very few tests that DO exists just blow chunks! > > * Last but not least idlelib does not follow PEP8 or ANY convention. > So much so that it seems the developers snubbed their nose at such > conventions! We are missing doc strings and comments. We have built- > ins being re-bound! Just code horror after code horror. > > These are just the top of the list. The peak of a huge iceberg that > threatens to sink the community in the arms of chaos never to return. > I am beginning to believe that this community is either made of > amateurs due to this lackluster code in the stdlib. However it could > be that the folks are really professional and refuse to work on such a > horrible code base (which i understand). I am going with the latter. > > When are we going to demand that these abominatio
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-01-31 17:17:06 -0500, Kevin Walzer said: It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE, and I think the scope of such a project would be much easier for a single person to manage than would replacing Tkinter in the stdlib with another GUI toolkit, such as wxPython, or pyGUI, or something else. I'd encourage you to set up a project page somewhere, begin cutting some code, and then invite feedback from other users and/or developers. I think that approach has a much better chance of getting off the ground and making progress than long threads on c.l.py. Good luck! --Kevin I think it would be interesting as well. H, I am about to do the O'Reilly series that Steve Holden did for Python. Maybe I will take that up as a project when I get through it (or...*nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* to Rick, help out if someone else does a fork). -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
Rick, I've spent a fair amount of time in the IDLE source tree, putting together patches for various Mac-specific bugs and submitting them to the Python tracker, and I agree the code is crufty and disorganized. It is certainly not an example of current best practices in Tkinter development. The code base has accrued over the years, has been touched by many, many different hands, and I think its current messy state reflects that legacy. But, as I understand it, the purpose of IDLE is not to provide a pedagogical example of Tkinter programming practices, but instead to provide a lightweight development environment for those learning Python, to interactively explore different aspects of Python. For this it serves its purpose well. I use IDLE a good deal for my Python development work, and the cruftiness of the code under the hood is not an impediment to me getting my work done (unless the work is patching IDLE itself). Given this, I don't see any huge need to bulldoze IDLE to the ground and replace it with something else, or even do massive rewrites of the code, unless such a project also significantly improved the user-facing portions of IDLE as well. However, there are certainly no impediments for you undertaking such a project yourself: similar efforts have been undertaken in the past and, as I understand it, have led to some significant improvements in IDLE's performance. Here's the one I'm thinking of: http://idlefork.sourceforge.net/ According to this project's details, IDLE was forked, numerous changes were made to its code base, the new version of IDLE gained a user base, and eventually the changes were merged back in to Python's main line of development. It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE, and I think the scope of such a project would be much easier for a single person to manage than would replacing Tkinter in the stdlib with another GUI toolkit, such as wxPython, or pyGUI, or something else. I'd encourage you to set up a project page somewhere, begin cutting some code, and then invite feedback from other users and/or developers. I think that approach has a much better chance of getting off the ground and making progress than long threads on c.l.py. Good luck! --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On 2011-01-31 15:19:44 -0500, rantingrick said: On Jan 31, 1:32 pm, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote: So what you're actually telling is that Python won't survive another 10 years because: - IDLE is it's default editor Well not solely because IDLE is the default editor. IDLE is very useful to newcommers and could be made even more useful however the code base is rotten! Then DO something about it and no excuses. Fork it, make it better, submit it as a replacement. -- Robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 1:32 pm, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote: > So what you're actually telling is that Python won't survive another > 10 years because: > > - IDLE is it's default editor Well not solely because IDLE is the default editor. IDLE is very useful to newcommers and could be made even more useful however the code base is rotten! > - idlelib directory is the first place you should look every time you > need an inspiration on how code should be written In an ideal world it should be the first place you look when wanting to learn how to build medium sized GUI projects with the built-in Tkinter module. However the reality is ANYTHING but ideal. The code is rotten to the core, full of inconsistencies and just very unpythonic. Not something i would suggest any aspiring Tkinter n00b look at unless they want to learn what NOT to do. > - code in idlelib directory sucks plainly and simply... YES. > That's an interesting point and I thank you for pointing that out. > Personally I've never looked into idlelib directory for 7 years in a row at > all. And i am glad, because had you followed the example of IDLE you would be spreading mediocrity and obfuscation. Both of which are not virtues to be admired. > I was probably doing some other things, I don't know, but now I'm > definitively gonna start looking for a new language because it's clear > that any language having a directory called "idlelib" within such a > horrible source code is not gonna last for long. Well not unless we do something about it. It is high time to stop patching, bolting on, and future extending the suffering of this horrendous code base. It is time to pull the plug, let it die, and start fresh. Start from a real python perspective. We can learn from past mistakes and build something much better. But will we? Do we have the community spirit to take on this challenge? Do we as a community have any fire left or have we collectively waxed cold? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
So what you're actually telling is that Python won't survive another 10 years because: - IDLE is it's default editor - idlelib directory is the first place you should look every time you need an inspiration on how code should be written - code in idlelib directory sucks That's an interesting point and I thank you for pointing that out. Personally I've never looked into idlelib directory for 7 years in a row at all. I was probably doing some other things, I don't know, but now I'm definitively gonna start looking for a new language because it's clear that any language having a directory called "idlelib" within such a horrible source code is not gonna last for long. Thanks again, --- Giampaolo http://code.google.com/p/pyftpdlib/ http://code.google.com/p/psutil/ 2011/1/31 rantingrick : > PLEASE KINDLY IGNORE MY FIRST TWO POSTS: > Due to some errors i need to repost. > Thank you. > > > > IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation. > -- by Rick Johnson > > > IDLE --which is the Python Integrated Development and Learning > Environment-- was once the apple of Guido's eye but has since > degenerated into madness many years ago and remains now as the shining > jewel "show piece" on the proverbial python wall of shame. A once > mighty dream of "programming for everyone" that is now nothing more > than an example of "how NOT to program". > > IDLE contains some of the worst code this community has created. Bad > design patterns, tacked on functionality, blasphemous styling, and > piss poor packaging. There seems to be no guiding goals or game-plan. > And year after year if IDLE *does* get any attention it's just more > haphazard code thrown into the mix by someone who has gone blind from > reading the source. However we cannot blame the current maintainer -- > if any such even exists-- because NOBODY can maintains such a > spaghetti mess that this package has become! > > If we would have had a proper game plan from day one i believe we > could have avoided this catastrophe. Follows is an outline of the > wrongs with some suggestions to right them... > > * First of all the main two modules "PyShell" and "EditorWindow" are > laid out in such a non sequential way that it is virtually impossible > to follow along. We should have had a proper app instance from which > all widgets where combined. The main app should have followed a > "common sense" sequential mentality of... > > * subclassing the tk.Toplevel > * initializing instance variables > * creating the main menu > * creating the sub widgets > * declaring internal methods > * declaring event handlers > * interface/generic methods. > > ... This is the recipe for order AND NOT CHAOS! What we have now is > utter chaos! When we have order we can read source code in a > sequential fashion. When we have order we can comprehend what we read. > And when we have order we can maintain a library/package with ease. > However sadly we DO NOT have order, we have CHAOS, CHAOS, and more > CHAOS! > > * The underlying sub widgets should have started with their own proper > order of "declared" initialization. And all events should be handled > in the widget at hand NOT outsourced to some other class! > > * One of the biggest design flaws is the fact that outside modules > manipulate the main editor/pyshells events. This is a terrible way to > code. For example the AutoCompleteWindow takes over the tab event. > This is a bad design! The main editor window should handle all its own > events AND THEN call outside class methods when needed... > > #-- Puesdo Code --# > # in editor window __init__ > self.autocomplete = AutoComplete(blah) > # in editor window onKeyPress(blah) > if key == 'Tab' and blah: > self.autocomplete.show_tip(blah) > elif key == 'Escape' and acw.is_visibe(): > self.autocomplete.hide() > > ...We don't want "Mommy" classes telling the kids what to do, when to > eat, when to sleep, and when to excrete! We should create our objects > with the virtue of self reliance and responsibility!. The Colorizer, > ParenMatch, CallTips, and many other modules are guilty of "event > stealing" also. Event functionality must be handled in the widget > itself, NOT stolen and handled in an outside class. When we split up > sequential code we get CHAOS! > > * Another bad choice was creating custom reusable widgets > (Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, textView, TreeWidget, etc...) > and leaving them in idlelib. These should have been moved into the lib- > tk folder where they would be more visible to python programmers AND > we could reduce the cruft in the idlelib! Remember, when we create > more files, folders, and objects we create CHAOS. And nobody can learn > from CHAOS! > > * Another blasphemy is the fact that every module should include some > sort of test/demo to display its usage. If the module is a GUI widget > then you MUST show how to use the widget in a window. Sadly like all > everything else, idlelib is devoid of examples and test
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
PLEASE KINDLY IGNORE MY FIRST TWO POSTS: Due to some errors i need to repost. Thank you. IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation. -- by Rick Johnson IDLE --which is the Python Integrated Development and Learning Environment-- was once the apple of Guido's eye but has since degenerated into madness many years ago and remains now as the shining jewel "show piece" on the proverbial python wall of shame. A once mighty dream of "programming for everyone" that is now nothing more than an example of "how NOT to program". IDLE contains some of the worst code this community has created. Bad design patterns, tacked on functionality, blasphemous styling, and piss poor packaging. There seems to be no guiding goals or game-plan. And year after year if IDLE *does* get any attention it's just more haphazard code thrown into the mix by someone who has gone blind from reading the source. However we cannot blame the current maintainer -- if any such even exists-- because NOBODY can maintains such a spaghetti mess that this package has become! If we would have had a proper game plan from day one i believe we could have avoided this catastrophe. Follows is an outline of the wrongs with some suggestions to right them... * First of all the main two modules "PyShell" and "EditorWindow" are laid out in such a non sequential way that it is virtually impossible to follow along. We should have had a proper app instance from which all widgets where combined. The main app should have followed a "common sense" sequential mentality of... * subclassing the tk.Toplevel * initializing instance variables * creating the main menu * creating the sub widgets * declaring internal methods * declaring event handlers * interface/generic methods. ... This is the recipe for order AND NOT CHAOS! What we have now is utter chaos! When we have order we can read source code in a sequential fashion. When we have order we can comprehend what we read. And when we have order we can maintain a library/package with ease. However sadly we DO NOT have order, we have CHAOS, CHAOS, and more CHAOS! * The underlying sub widgets should have started with their own proper order of "declared" initialization. And all events should be handled in the widget at hand NOT outsourced to some other class! * One of the biggest design flaws is the fact that outside modules manipulate the main editor/pyshells events. This is a terrible way to code. For example the AutoCompleteWindow takes over the tab event. This is a bad design! The main editor window should handle all its own events AND THEN call outside class methods when needed... #-- Puesdo Code --# # in editor window __init__ self.autocomplete = AutoComplete(blah) # in editor window onKeyPress(blah) if key == 'Tab' and blah: self.autocomplete.show_tip(blah) elif key == 'Escape' and acw.is_visibe(): self.autocomplete.hide() ...We don't want "Mommy" classes telling the kids what to do, when to eat, when to sleep, and when to excrete! We should create our objects with the virtue of self reliance and responsibility!. The Colorizer, ParenMatch, CallTips, and many other modules are guilty of "event stealing" also. Event functionality must be handled in the widget itself, NOT stolen and handled in an outside class. When we split up sequential code we get CHAOS! * Another bad choice was creating custom reusable widgets (Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, textView, TreeWidget, etc...) and leaving them in idlelib. These should have been moved into the lib- tk folder where they would be more visible to python programmers AND we could reduce the cruft in the idlelib! Remember, when we create more files, folders, and objects we create CHAOS. And nobody can learn from CHAOS! * Another blasphemy is the fact that every module should include some sort of test/demo to display its usage. If the module is a GUI widget then you MUST show how to use the widget in a window. Sadly like all everything else, idlelib is devoid of examples and testing. And the very few tests that DO exists just blow chunks! * Last but not least idlelib does not follow PEP8 or ANY convention. So much so that it seems the developers snubbed their nose at such conventions! We are missing doc strings and comments. We have built- ins being rebound! Just code horror after code horror. These are just the top of the list. The peak of a huge iceberg that threatens to sink the community in the arms of chaos never to return. I am beginning to believe that this community is made of amateurs due to this lackluster code in the stdlib. However it could be that the folks are really professional and refuse to work on such a horrible code base (which i understand). I am going with the latter. When are we going to demand that these abominations be rectified? How much longer must we wait? A year? Ten years?... i don't think Python will survive another ten years with this attitude of obfuscation, and mentality of medioc
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
However we cannot blame the current maintainer... You seem to still not know who -we- is. rewrite your message using I in place of we, and you'll be on the right track. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
On Jan 31, 11:39 am, rantingrick wrote: In my original post i showed this code #-- Puesdo Code --# # in editor window __init__ self.autocomplete = AutoComplete(blah) # in editor window onKeyPress(blah) if key == 'Tab' and blah: self.autocomplete.show_tip(blah) elif key == 'Escape' and acw.is_visibe(): self.autocomplete.hide() ...is a suggested FIX of the current code NOT a generalization of the current code. However it may easily be miss-interpreted due to improper placement in the paragraph. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
