Re: Important features for editors
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:32:59 PM UTC+10, cutems93 wrote: I am researching on editors for my own reference. On the Windows platform there is the Zeus editor: http://www.zeusedit.com/python.html It does the standard syntax highlighting, code folding and smarting indent etc etc. It's also scriptable (in Python) making which makes it highly configurable. The keyboard is fully configurable and my keyboard mapping of choice is Brief (there's an EMACS keyboard mapping but no vim mapping). I couldn't live without the keyboard macro record and playback. The automatic ctags also helps to navigate large code bases. User defined templates help with common programming constructs like if, while, for etc. I never was a big fan of code folding but have grow to use that feature a lot. NOTE: I'm the author of Zeus, it is shareware, runs natively on the Windows platform and can run on Linux using Wine. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Sun, 07 Jul 2013 23:16:39 -0700, jussij wrote: I couldn't live without the keyboard macro record and playback. I used to work with a programmer who couldn't live without his insulin injections. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
I couldn't live without the keyboard macro record and playback. I used to work with a programmer who couldn't live without his insulin injections. Hyperbole aside, two of my most common crutches are Emacs macros and bash history. Given how useful macros are, I find it very odd that recent versions of GNU Emacs dispensed with the old key binding to C-x c. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Mon, Jul 08 2013,Skip Montanaro wrote:
I couldn't live without the keyboard macro record and playback.
I used to work with a programmer who couldn't live without his insulin
injections.
Hyperbole aside, two of my most common crutches are Emacs macros and
bash history. Given how useful macros are, I find it very odd that
recent versions of GNU Emacs dispensed with the old key binding to C-x
c.
Skip
Wasn't it C-x ( ? From the manual
In addition to the F3 and F4 commands described above, Emacs
also supports an older set of key bindings for defining and executing
keyboard macros. To begin a macro definition, type `C-x ('
(`kmacro-start-macro'); as with F3, a prefix argument appends this
definition to the last keyboard macro. To end a macro definition, type
`C-x )' (`kmacro-end-macro'). To execute the most recent macro, type
`C-x e' (`kmacro-end-and-call-macro'). If you enter `C-x e' while
sivaram
--
--
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Re: Important features for editors
Wasn't it C-x ( ? From the manual
In addition to the F3 and F4 commands described above, Emacs
also supports an older set of key bindings for defining and executing
keyboard macros. To begin a macro definition, type `C-x ('
(`kmacro-start-macro'); as with F3, a prefix argument appends this
definition to the last keyboard macro. To end a macro definition, type
`C-x )' (`kmacro-end-macro'). To execute the most recent macro, type
`C-x e' (`kmacro-end-and-call-macro'). If you enter `C-x e' while
(We are getting a bit off-topic, but I suppose that's not too unusual...)
Thanks for pointing that out.
Things moved around on me while I wasn't looking. For a long, long
time, I have used C-x e as a prefix for a number of ediff commands. I
imagine that comes from my old XEmacs habits. C-x c was always bound
to call-last-kbd-macro, and I'm pretty sure it used to be that way in
older versions of GNU Emacs. The kmacro package probably appeared
while I was using XEmacs. I found that in the interim, the GNU folks
inserted all sorts of extra keys, so that many things I used to do
with two keystrokes are now done with three. I understand the logic
of what they did (easier to increase the number of keystrokes required
for some commands than to increase the number of keys on the
keyboard), but prefer many things the way I used to do them.
So, call-last-kbd-macro got unbound in the GNU switch to kmacro, and
reasserting my preference for the way I called ediff commands meant
that the new spelling of the kmacro stuff got dropped. I do use C-x (
and C-x ) to define macros.
Skip
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Re: Important features for editors
On 6 July 2013 06:19, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, July 6, 2013 10:05:14 AM UTC+5:30, Joshua Landau wrote: I never got why Vi doesn't support Ctrl-C by default -- it's not like it's a used key-combination and it would have helped me so many times when I was younger. Dunno what you are referring to. Out here C-c gets vi out of insert mode Second (onwards) and it prints Type :quitEnter to exit Vim I know how to quit Vi *now*, but when I didn't it was a pain. It's easy to get lost in a program that doesn't accept the *standard quitting key*. The rest of my post was a demonstration of what my Vi sessions used to look like. Note that Vi != Vim; Vim at least tells you what to do. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Eric S. Johansson e...@harvee.org wrote: ** On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:13:24 -0400, Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Yes... The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that emacs' ergonomics is not right. As someone crippled by Emacs ( actual cause not known), I should also point out that RMS, instead of doing the responsible thing and using speech recognition software, burns the hands of other human beings by using them as biological speech recognition units. Hope youve seen this http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arora/RSI.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 23:13:24 -0400, Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:Yes...The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that emacs' ergonomics is not right. As someone crippled by Emacs ( actual cause not known), I should also point out that RMS, instead of doing the responsible thing and using speech recognition software, burns the hands of other human beings by using them as biological speech recognition units.Now for me, an important feature for editor is the ability to command it, not by keystrokes but by function/method invocation. This is be the first step to reducing the disasters caused by misrecognition events injecting unintentional commands into an editor. For example, bring up a file in VI in close your eyes and type some string like "save file" or "end of line". What kind of damage do you get? With an editor RPC, you can bypass all this damage. You turn off keystroke input at the start of a recognition event and all keyboard queue data is injected as characters. All commands are injected by the API.There's a few other things, I need in a very tiny editor to help a part of my accessibility problem. One of the ways I deal with speech recognition user interfaces by creating tiny domain specific languages to solve a problem. You can say them, they are resilient in the face of misrecognition, edit them and you can replay them. Bunch of wins. The tiny editor needs to use the right Windows edit control to work with NaturallySpeaking, save data so that I never have to think about it. It's always on disk, always safe. If I invoke a file by name, I get exactly one instance. And last, I want the ability to filter the contents of the editor through a bit of Python code so I can do transformations on opening the file or writing the file.Further down the road, instead of the classic syntax highlighting, I need dynamic naming of features so that I can say things like "replace third argument", "modify index" for format local times using pattern.I will admit the last one is a bit of a cheat because that's a subset of the domain specific notation I think that earlier. Not a solved problem :-)So important feature editor change depending on your perspective, or should I say, state of impending disability. We all become disabled with age, just some of us age much faster than the rest of the population-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 7/4/2013 2:52 PM, Ferrous Cranus wrote: Like you never downloaded serials/keygens/patch/cracks for warez and torrents websites. Morality aside, why would I? Today I bought 8 games on GOG.com for about $22 - drm and virus free and easy download and install. If I get 10 hours of fun from 2 of them, I'll be happy. This is not to mention free Python and LibreOffice as my primary work programs - suppported by hg, TortoiseHg, 7zip, and others. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Στις 4/7/2013 10:59 πμ, ο/η Νίκος έγραψε: Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor The only thing missing from this great editor is the ability to upload your python scripts to a remote web server. They should embed a plugin for that like Notepad's NPPFtp plugin. Other that that its all complete, and it has help built-in system to help you with the syntax of the commands as you write them. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Am Donnerstag, 4. Juli 2013 11:14:38 UTC+2 schrieb Νίκος Gr33k: ... On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: ... Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor ... If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Am Freitag, 5. Juli 2013 09:41:39 UTC+2 schrieb Νίκος Gr33k: [talkin about Sublime Text editor] The only thing missing from this great editor is the ability to upload your python scripts to a remote web server. They should embed a plugin for that like Notepad's NPPFtp plugin. Oh, I'm sure they would have time/money to do so, if more people payed the license fees. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 1:37:10 PM UTC+5:30, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote: Programmability comes to my mind, before anything else. I'd suggest to find out about designs of Emacs and Vi(m). There's one reason I prefer emacs -- and I guess some people prefer Idle -- the interpreter and editor are tightly integrated. This is not strictly in the class of editor-as-editor but editor as programming-in-the-tiny support. That said it needs to be also remembered: - needs some setup efforts for python - key-bindings and terminology will seem weird to the younger generation One expansion for EMACS is Editor for Middle Aged Computer Scientists -- so I am guessing if you're asking the question you dont qualify :-) If you get past these initial hurdles and also the initial programming hurdles to get to the point where you have the AHA moment -- programming is like art/poetry, you may want to look at emacs - org-mode - babel which is the state-of-art system for what is called 'literate programming' http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/intro.html [I am a medium-grade user of org-mode and completely noob at babel! ] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 2013-07-04, Ferrous Cranus ni...@superhost.gr wrote: 4/7/2013 9:40 , ??/?? Grant Edwards : On 2013-07-04, ?? ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. A new low. Now he's offering to help people steal others' work. Like you never downloaded serials/keygens/patch/cracks for warez and torrents websites. No, not that I can recall. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! In Newark the at laundromats are open 24 gmail.comhours a day! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 05Jul2013 05:12, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: | On Thursday, July 4, 2013 1:37:10 PM UTC+5:30, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote: | Programmability comes to my mind, before anything else. I'd suggest | to find out about designs of Emacs and Vi(m). | | There's one reason I prefer emacs -- and I guess some people | prefer Idle -- the interpreter and editor are tightly integrated. That is indeed a strength of emacs over vi. For myself, I generally don't want to program my editor beyond writing keyboard macros, and vim's programming interface has yet to attract me. When I want to manipulate text beyond a simple macro I tend to write a sed script. Or awk, or python in increasing complexity of task. [...] | One expansion for EMACS is Editor for Middle Aged Computer | Scientists -- so I am guessing if you're asking the question you | dont qualify :-) While I started with vi just slightly before encountering emacs (mid-to-late 1980s, both), my main trouble with choosing emacs was the heavy use of control keys. Vi's modal nature means that in edit mode, all the keystrokes are available as edit controls. Emacs' modeless nature means that all the edit controls must be control-this and meta/escape-that. For this reason, I often expand EMACS as Escape Meta Alt Control Shift. I'm a vi user. Once I mastered hit ESC by reflex when you pause typing an insert I was never confused above which mode I was in. And now my fingers know vi. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au A novice of the temple once approached the Chief Priest with a question. Master, does Emacs have the Buddha nature? the novice asked. The Chief Priest had been in the temple for many years and could be relied upon to know these things. He thought for several minutes before replying. I don't see why not. It's got bloody well everything else. With that, the Chief Priest went to lunch. The novice suddenly achieved enlightenment, several years later. Commentary: His Master is kind, Answering his FAQ quickly, With thought and sarcasm. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:36 AM, Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au wrote: While I started with vi just slightly before encountering emacs (mid-to-late 1980s, both), my main trouble with choosing emacs was the heavy use of control keys. Vi's modal nature means that in edit mode, all the keystrokes are available as edit controls. Emacs' modeless nature means that all the edit controls must be control-this and meta/escape-that. For this reason, I often expand EMACS as Escape Meta Alt Control Shift. Yes... The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that emacs' ergonomics is not right. I'm a vi user. Once I mastered hit ESC by reflex when you pause typing an insert I was never confused above which mode I was in. And now my fingers know vi. Yes... vi: (n) A program that has two modes, one in which it beeps and the other in which it corrupts your file :-) Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au A novice of the temple once approached the Chief Priest with a question. Master, does Emacs have the Buddha nature? the novice asked. The Chief Priest had been in the temple for many years and could be relied upon to know these things. He thought for several minutes before replying. I don't see why not. It's got bloody well everything else. With that, the Chief Priest went to lunch. The novice suddenly achieved enlightenment, several years later. Commentary: His Master is kind, Answering his FAQ quickly, With thought and sarcasm. Heard somewhere: Emacs is my operating system and linux is its device driver. No I dont belong to that camp -- Actually I am quite dissatisfied with emacs nowadays... Keep trying eclipse and getting repulsed by the gorilla. Philosophy being this: What functional programming is to program-semantics, fast-branching (as in git) is to program-source[1]. To complete the trinity, one needs semi-automated refactoring. The first I can do in my sleep; the second still noob-status, the third yet to start! [1] Not necessarily source-code See http://blog.vctr.me/posts/why-you-should-learn-git.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
In article mailman.4323.1373080433.3114.python-l...@python.org, Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a vi user. Once I mastered hit ESC by reflex when you pause typing an insert I was never confused above which mode I was in. And now my fingers know vi. All the vi you need to know: esc : q ! return -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 6 July 2013 04:25, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.4323.1373080433.3114.python-l...@python.org, Rustom Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a vi user. Once I mastered hit ESC by reflex when you pause typing an insert I was never confused above which mode I was in. And now my fingers know vi. All the vi you need to know: esc : q ! return I never got why Vi doesn't support Ctrl-C by default -- it's not like it's a used key-combination and it would have helped me so many times when I was younger. :^C Interrupt :^C Interrupt :^C Interrupt :^C Interrupt : At end-of-file : At end-of-file : At end-of-file : At end-of-file :^C Interrupt : At end-of-file :^C Interrupt : At end-of-file :^C Interrupt :^C Interrupt : -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Saturday, July 6, 2013 10:05:14 AM UTC+5:30, Joshua Landau wrote: I never got why Vi doesn't support Ctrl-C by default -- it's not like it's a used key-combination and it would have helped me so many times when I was younger. Dunno what you are referring to. Out here C-c gets vi out of insert mode Second (onwards) and it prints Type :quitEnter to exit Vim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor When possible, it's polite to supply a link to the page where it's described or can be downloaded. In this case, http://www.sublimetext.com/ It looks pretty good on the web page. The main negatives I can see are: It costs $70 per user It can only be purchased with Paypal, which I won't use. It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) The positives It can be customized, apparently in Python The simple customizations are specified by JSON files Current download is version 2, but there's a version 3 beta, and if you buy now, you won't have an upgrade fee. .. Note that the OP didn't ask which is a good editor, but which features make a good editor. I'll post a response to that in a little while. -- DaveA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 07/04/2013 03:32 AM, cutems93 wrote: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Not sure what you mean by keyboard shortcuts. If you mean there should be a keyboard version of anything that can be done with the mouse, absolutely. There are hundreds of features that could be listed, and only you can decide which ones are important. I'll try to list a few that are important to me, and some more that would sure be nice. Very important: -- It runs on every platform I'm using. It's extremely fast, when run locally, and reasonable over a slow internet connection. Licensing is free, or very inexpensive It opens and edits files of fairly arbitrary size (at least 10 MB) It has a large number of potential buffers, for editing multiple files at the same time. It can readily be customized, on a per-language basis, so that it can easily handle the quirks of each language. And it switches between them based on file name, without explicitly setting some mode. However, if the filename is unconventional, it allows the buffer to be explicitly set to a particular language, not affecting other files that are simultaneously open. It comes pre-customized for the languages I'm likely to use now. That includes pseudo languages like html, xml, css, not just programming languages. It supports my own strange preferences for tab-handling, or at least can be customized to do so. It recognizes immediately when a file has been changed on disk, and gives me reasonable ways to merge my current edits into what's now in the disk file. It doesn't force me to accept .bak or other funny files; that's what dvcs systems are for. It CAN create such files while a file is being edited, they just shouldn't persist after the editor is normally closed. If it has project files, they should be out of band, not mixed in with source files I'm editing. Nice to have: It has visible spaces (and tabs, and other funny white-space characters) It can be run in an ssh session, remotely, over a satellite internet connection and vpn. Customization language is one I'm comfortable with. Not VBA or javascript. Mandatory for Python use: It understands indenting, and lets you easily get to the various columns that are legal at any point. This means it recognizes if statements and suchlike, and indents (4) spaces for the following line. And when you want to unindent, you don't have to use 4 backspaces, but just press the tab again. Nice for Python use: --- Syntax coloring. Re-indenting a group of lines by plus-or-minus 4 columns. Now, you may be asking about an IDE. And that's a whole other kettle of fish. Context-sensitive auto-completion, jump to definition, refactoring support, data breakpoints, ... Candidates? emacs - standard on most OS's, available for Windows from various websites Komodo Editfree http://www.activestate.com/komodo-edit Komodo IDE not free http://www.activestate.com/komodo-ide -- DaveA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Στις 4/7/2013 11:34 πμ, ο/η Dave Angel έγραψε: On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor When possible, it's polite to supply a link to the page where it's described or can be downloaded. In this case, http://www.sublimetext.com/ It looks pretty good on the web page. The main negatives I can see are: It costs $70 per user It can only be purchased with Paypal, which I won't use. It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) The positives It can be customized, apparently in Python The simple customizations are specified by JSON files Current download is version 2, but there's a version 3 beta, and if you buy now, you won't have an upgrade fee. .. Note that the OP didn't ask which is a good editor, but which features make a good editor. I'll post a response to that in a little while. If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Νίκος ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Considering that there are plenty of free text editors around, I don't see any reason to steal one. If you want a pay-for editor, pay for it. If you don't want to pay, use emacs or SciTE or nano or something. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 2013-07-04 10:14, Νίκος wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Please do not use this forum to make such offers. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 2013-07-04 05:02, Dave Angel wrote: [snip an excellent list of things to look for in an editor] Also, - the ability to perform changes in bulk, especially across files. Often, this is done with the ability to record/playback macros, though some editors have multiple insertion/edit cursors; others allow for performing a bulk-change command across the entire file or list of files. - folding (the ability to collapse multiple lines of text down to one line). Especially if there are various ways to do it (manual folding, language-block folding, folding by indentation) - multiple clipboard buffers/registers - multiple bookmarks - the ability to interact with external programs (piping a portion of a file through an external utility) - a good community around it in case you have questions - easy navigation to important things in your file (where important may vary based on file-type, but may include function definitions, paragraph boundaries, matching paren/bracket/brace/tag, etc) Other nice-to-haves include - split window editing - tabbed windows - Unicode support (including various encodings) - vimgolf.com ;-) Candidates? emacs - standard on most OS's, available for Windows from And I'll put in a plug for Vim. -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Νίκος ni...@superhost.gr wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 11:34 πμ, ο/η Dave Angel έγραψε: On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor When possible, it's polite to supply a link to the page where it's described or can be downloaded. In this case, http://www.sublimetext.com/ It looks pretty good on the web page. The main negatives I can see are: It costs $70 per user It can only be purchased with Paypal, which I won't use. It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) The positives It can be customized, apparently in Python The simple customizations are specified by JSON files Current download is version 2, but there's a version 3 beta, and if you buy now, you won't have an upgrade fee. .. Note that the OP didn't ask which is a good editor, but which features make a good editor. I'll post a response to that in a little while. If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. Sent from a Galaxy far far away-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Στις 4/7/2013 4:33 μμ, ο/η Steve Simmons έγραψε: Νίκος ni...@superhost.gr wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 11:34 πμ, ο/η Dave Angel έγραψε: On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 10:32 πμ, ο/η cutems93 έγραψε: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Thanks! Min Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor When possible, it's polite to supply a link to the page where it's described or can be downloaded. In this case, http://www.sublimetext.com/ It looks pretty good on the web page. The main negatives I can see are: It costs $70 per user It can only be purchased with Paypal, which I won't use. It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) The positives It can be customized, apparently in Python The simple customizations are specified by JSON files Current download is version 2, but there's a version 3 beta, and if you buy now, you won't have an upgrade fee. .. Note that the OP didn't ask which is a good editor, but which features make a good editor. I'll post a response to that in a little while. If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. Sent from a Galaxy far far away Just wanted to help people that might wanted it, thats all, its a great editor, but i wont post in public again such propositions. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Am Donnerstag, 4. Juli 2013 15:36:02 UTC+2 schrieb Νίκος Γκρ33κ: Στις 4/7/2013 4:33 μμ, ο/η Steve Simmons έγραψε: Νίκος ni...@superhost.gr wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 11:34 πμ, ο/η Dave Angel έγραψε: On 07/04/2013 03:59 AM, Νίκος wrote: ... Download Sublime Text v3 Is a great editor ... It looks pretty good on the web page. The main negatives I can see are: It costs $70 per user It can only be purchased with Paypal, which I won't use. ... If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. ... Just wanted to help people that might wanted it, thats all, its a great editor, but i wont post in public again such propositions. Ahh, I see. Committing crimes is O.K. as long as 1. I think I help other with it and 2. I do not talk about it. Yep. That's a great attitude towards life. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 7:03:19 PM UTC+5:30, Steve Simmons wrote: Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. For the record Steve, let me say, I find Robert Kern's objection barely sufficient. And yours less than that. Note that you are not objecting to the crime but to the public expression of it. Just look at your objection from the angle of a police officer, and you will see that it can certainly be construed as abetment/collusion (or whatever is the legalistic jargon. Obviously IANAL) For the sake of covering my own arse let me say: 1. I have earlier described Nikos as a petty-criminal and consider myself justified. 2. I have earlier described condoning him as collusion and I reiterate that claim. And I add 3. The collective actions of this list will help determine further whether he climbs or descends the criminal ladder. Beyond that I reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: These discussions 'in-band' are counter-productive. Setting up something like an invite-only yahoo or google group or some such to discuss this is free and takes 5 minutes. I would have offered to do it but some people like Joshua Landau seem to think I am interested in world (aka Python-list) domination so not offering. I was actually going to suggest that Steven d'Aprano do it. However before I could do that, he said (in CoC thread) that policing is not possible. Saddens me... So I am suggesting you do it. If I am invited I will contribute my 2c. If not, no objection: I dont consider myself a very important member of this list. And yes: I hope you will consider rewording your objection, if not anything to cover your own you-know-what-where!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 04/07/2013 14:22, Tim Chase wrote: On 2013-07-04 05:02, Dave Angel wrote: [snip an excellent list of things to look for in an editor] Also, - the ability to perform changes in bulk, especially across files. Often, this is done with the ability to record/playback macros, though some editors have multiple insertion/edit cursors; others allow for performing a bulk-change command across the entire file or list of files. - folding (the ability to collapse multiple lines of text down to one line). Especially if there are various ways to do it (manual folding, language-block folding, folding by indentation) - multiple clipboard buffers/registers - multiple bookmarks - the ability to interact with external programs (piping a portion of a file through an external utility) - a good community around it in case you have questions - easy navigation to important things in your file (where important may vary based on file-type, but may include function definitions, paragraph boundaries, matching paren/bracket/brace/tag, etc) Other nice-to-haves include - split window editing - tabbed windows - Unicode support (including various encodings) It's 2013, yet Unicode support is merely a nice-to-have? - vimgolf.com ;-) Candidates? emacs - standard on most OS's, available for Windows from And I'll put in a plug for Vim. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: On 2013-07-04 05:02, Dave Angel wrote: [snip an excellent list of things to look for in an editor] Also, - the ability to perform changes in bulk, especially across files. Often, this is done with the ability to record/playback macros, though some editors have multiple insertion/edit cursors; others allow for performing a bulk-change command across the entire file or list of files. To Tim's and Dave's excellent lists let me add one more feature that I find useful: the ability to bulk-search through all files in a folder/directory/project for a word or phrase, display the hits and then selectively or optionally do a replace on each hit in the displayed list. In effect, this is an interactive extension of the bulk search and replace Tim lists above. - folding (the ability to collapse multiple lines of text down to one line). Especially if there are various ways to do it (manual folding, language-block folding, folding by indentation) Yes, yes, yes. It may simply be a reflection of my poor programming style (grow by accretion, wait way too long to refactor), but this is a big help in following program logic. - multiple clipboard buffers/registers - multiple bookmarks - the ability to interact with external programs (piping a portion of a file through an external utility) And in particular, the ability to preview a chunk of html in a browser. - a good community around it in case you have questions - easy navigation to important things in your file (where important may vary based on file-type, but may include function definitions, paragraph boundaries, matching paren/bracket/brace/tag, etc) Other nice-to-haves include - split window editing - tabbed windows - Unicode support (including various encodings) - vimgolf.com ;-) Candidates? emacs - standard on most OS's, available for Windows from And I'll put in a plug for Vim. -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, July 4, 2013 7:03:19 PM UTC+5:30, Steve Simmons wrote: Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. For the record Steve, let me say, I find Robert Kern's objection barely sufficient. And yours less than that. Note that you are not objecting to the crime but to the public expression of it. Just look at your objection from the angle of a police officer, and you will see that it can certainly be construed as abetment/collusion (or whatever is the legalistic jargon. Obviously IANAL) For the sake of covering my own arse let me say: 1. I have earlier described Nikos as a petty-criminal and consider myself justified. 2. I have earlier described condoning him as collusion and I reiterate that claim. And I add 3. The collective actions of this list will help determine further whether he climbs or descends the criminal ladder. Beyond that I reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: These discussions 'in-band' are counter-productive. Setting up something like an invite-only yahoo or google group or some such to discuss this is free and takes 5 minutes. I would have offered to do it but some people like Joshua Landau seem to think I am interested in world (aka Python-list) domination so not offering. I was actually going to suggest that Steven d'Aprano do it. However before I could do that, he said (in CoC thread) that policing is not possible. Saddens me... So I am suggesting you do it. If I am invited I will contribute my 2c. If not, no objection: I dont consider myself a very important member of this list. And yes: I hope you will consider rewording your objection, if not anything to cover your own you-know-what-where!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Rusi, Frankly, I don't give a tinkers cuss whether Nicos gets a visit from the police, FAST or the Greek secret service. Like too many others, I gave him some advice and within 24 hours he has demonstrated that he didn't see any value in that advice. Fair enough, it's not my problem. For my part, I have pointed out the folly of his ways and now reiterated, maybe too politely, that he has let himself down again. Robert Kern had already given him a blunt response that such communication is unwelcome and I felt no need to reinforce it. If the police or any other authority are 'on my trail' they are welcome to visit my house where they will find absolutely no trace of any kind of crime (unless they check how badly I've ignored the need to redecorate). And just for the record, the lack of evidence of crime will not be because I covered it up really well but because there ain't none guv. I absolutely agree that the ongoing debate about Nicos' behaviour and the finer points of how various members of this list have reacted has become more than a little tiresome and it is high time it moved to another medium. However, with no guidelines in place and no sanctions available, any discussion - on or off list - had precious little value. I still think the CoC idea has some merit but with just a few notable exceptions the response has been pretty lukewarm. Likewise, I don't contribute much to this list - as a newcomer to python I don't have to much to offer - but I mostly enjoy being a small part of it and I would be happy to make a contribution to the CoC if I felt that the end result would be both useful and welcomed. Steve Sent from a Galaxy far far away-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 12:01:26 +0100, Robert Kern wrote: On 2013-07-04 10:14, Νίκος wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. Please do not use this forum to make such offers. Thank you Robert. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 07:02:26 -0700, rusi wrote: On Thursday, July 4, 2013 7:03:19 PM UTC+5:30, Steve Simmons wrote: Boy oh boy! You really are a slow learner Nicos. You have just offered to commit a crime and to include dozens of others in that crime ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Please think before you post. For the record Steve, let me say, I find Robert Kern's objection barely sufficient. And yours less than that. Note that you are not objecting to the crime Which crime is that? Presumably you mean an actual criminal felony, not a mere civil offence. Under which jurisdiction? but to the public expression of it. Just look at your objection from the angle of a police officer, and you will see that it can certainly be construed as abetment/collusion If piracy is a crime, and not just a civil offence, then surely so is libel. You have just accused Steve Simmons of collusion in a felony, based on absolutely no evidence at all. That's as clear a case of libel as I've ever seen. Although I'm not sure that the damages should be terribly high -- there's little evidence that anyone treats your ridiculously exaggerated claims about other people's supposed crimes as anything but hot air. But, putting damages aside, according to what passes for the reasoning that you have demonstrated here, your committing libel would make you equally a petty criminal as Nikos. Speaking of petty, this whole witch-hunt is getting ridiculous. Don't you have something more productive to do? Accusing people of colluding in crimes because they fail to be sufficiently zealous in objecting to the crime is nuts. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 07/04/2013 08:24 AM, MRAB wrote: On 04/07/2013 14:22, Tim Chase wrote: On 2013-07-04 05:02, Dave Angel wrote: [snip an excellent list of things to look for in an editor] It's 2013, yet Unicode support is merely a nice-to-have? I agree that this is pretty important. Even if you don't have to deal with Unicode today, the chances are good that you will need to, if only in an occasional way, in the future. One thing not mentioned (sorry if I missed it) that I use more than many of the features that have been mentioned is some form of advanced search/replace. I.e. something that can do regular expression searches and replaces including multiline ones. Another feature I find necessary is very fast start up time since I open an editor hundreds of times a day. Because advanced features and fast startup seem to be mutually exclusive, I often use two editors, a simple but quick starting one like Gedit on Linux or Notepad on Windows for 90% of routine editing and Emacs for the the other 10% when I need to do something more powerful. But as a disclaimer I should add that I do not spend 8+ hours a day doing nothing but programming so YMMV. BTW, the group is currently having a problem both with trolls and with regulars here that bite at every baited hook that drifts past their screen. There seems to nothing to be done other than ignore the obnoxious posts but I am sorry they have infiltrated your discussion. Hopefully this comment won't add to the problem. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
To Rurpy and cutems93, My apologies too. I reacted before I thought about creating a new thread. To your question: One thing that I don't use daily but find very useful to have in an editor is 'Hex View' (or better yet a 'Hex Editor'). Whilst it has been 'dissed' recently on this list, I like Notepad++ for everyday editing but if I'm head-down in a particular language, I prefer to be in an IDE. Steve On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 4:56 PM, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: On 07/04/2013 08:24 AM, MRAB wrote: On 04/07/2013 14:22, Tim Chase wrote: On 2013-07-04 05:02, Dave Angel wrote: [snip an excellent list of things to look for in an editor] It's 2013, yet Unicode support is merely a nice-to-have? I agree that this is pretty important. Even if you don't have to deal with Unicode today, the chances are good that you will need to, if only in an occasional way, in the future. One thing not mentioned (sorry if I missed it) that I use more than many of the features that have been mentioned is some form of advanced search/replace. I.e. something that can do regular expression searches and replaces including multiline ones. Another feature I find necessary is very fast start up time since I open an editor hundreds of times a day. Because advanced features and fast startup seem to be mutually exclusive, I often use two editors, a simple but quick starting one like Gedit on Linux or Notepad on Windows for 90% of routine editing and Emacs for the the other 10% when I need to do something more powerful. But as a disclaimer I should add that I do not spend 8+ hours a day doing nothing but programming so YMMV. BTW, the group is currently having a problem both with trolls and with regulars here that bite at every baited hook that drifts past their screen. There seems to nothing to be done other than ignore the obnoxious posts but I am sorry they have infiltrated your discussion. Hopefully this comment won't add to the problem. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 2013-07-04, ?? ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. A new low. Now he's offering to help people steal others' work. -- Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
Στις 4/7/2013 9:40 μμ, ο/η Grant Edwards έγραψε: On 2013-07-04, ?? ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. A new low. Now he's offering to help people steal others' work. Like you never downloaded serials/keygens/patch/cracks for warez and torrents websites. What a hypocritism.my intensions was to help the OP. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 2013-07-04 15:24, MRAB wrote: On 04/07/2013 14:22, Tim Chase wrote: Other nice-to-haves include - Unicode support (including various encodings) It's 2013, yet Unicode support is merely a nice-to-have? Yeah, while I use Vim and it's got support, most of what I do interacts with unicode stuff as escaped rather than in-line. In python, it's things like u\u20AC or in HTML/XML using one of the escaping variants: #8364; or #x20ac; or even euro; So I don't feel particularly hampered even if/when I get stuck with an editor that only speaks lower-ASCII. That's why I considered it merely nice to have rather than essential. -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:52 AM, Ferrous Cranus ni...@superhost.gr wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 9:40 μμ, ο/η Grant Edwards έγραψε: On 2013-07-04, ?? ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. A new low. Now he's offering to help people steal others' work. Like you never downloaded serials/keygens/patch/cracks for warez and torrents websites. What a hypocritism.my intensions was to help the OP. Even if some of us *have* violated license agreements (which you shouldn't assume is the case - most of us here are happily using free software), it's still something that you shouldn't advocate in public. Would you walk into a crowded room and start hawking a Kryptonite gun (guaranteed to kill Superman, then you can go rob all the banks you like) regardless of who's listening? No, you sell it quietly on the black market. You certainly don't say Hey, you guys have robbed banks before... haven't you?, because that's certainly not going to be true of everyone, and even if it is, it doesn't change what you've just offered. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Ferrous Cranus ni...@superhost.gr wrote: Στις 4/7/2013 9:40 μμ, ο/η Grant Edwards έγραψε: On 2013-07-04, ?? ni...@superhost.gr wrote: If you guys want to use it i can send you a patch for it. I know its illegal thing to say but it will help you use it without buying it. A new low. Now he's offering to help people steal others' work. Like you never downloaded serials/keygens/patch/cracks for warez and torrents websites. What a hypocritism.my intensions was to help the OP. No, I don't. Ever. And I imagine many others on this list are the same way. If I don't want to pay asking price for a product, I won't use it. Period. There's an open source solution to almost everything. Learn to use that instead. Since many people on this list are in the business of making software, I'd be willing to bet you are in the minority here. (The rather despised minority, based on previous comments). Even people that strongly believe all software should be free would avoid Sublime Text (or start an inspired open source project), not crack it. Example: look at the history of git. What you are doing (and offering to help others do in a public forum) damages the very product you claim to like. Commercial software is maintained and improved by the funding provided by product sales, which you deprive them of by your behavior. The original offer was misguided at best, but this attempted defense that casts everyone else down to your level (and avoids admitting wrongdoing) is reprehensible. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 4 July 2013 08:32, cutems93 ms2...@cornell.edu wrote: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Let me give you some reasons I really, really like Sublime Text. * Fast. Like, really fast. I've used Vim -- Sublime Text is faster. Considering I'm on a middle-end 5-year-old computer (not for long...) this matters. * The rendering is gorgeous. There are subtle shadows, there's perfectly crisp text (the main reason I no longer use terminal editors, actually), and once you choose the right theme (Nexus and Phoenix, Tomorrow Night for me) it's just lovely. There's this feature where it shows you tabs -- but only for the part of the file you're on. There's, instead of a scrollbar, a little bird's-eye-view of the whole code on the RHS. This goes on. Visually it is stunning, in a helpful way. If it had proper terminal-emulation support, I'd replace my terminal with it. It's just that usable an interface. * Multiple cursors. This is something that no-one else really advertises, but it's one of the most used features for me. It's something you just have to try for a while -- I think it's a bit like Vim's power-of-Regex but easy for a, you know, human. (I just found https://github.com/terryma/vim-multiple-cursors). * Good navigation between and inside of files. A lot of things have this, so I won't say much more. * The Command Palette is a dropdown that you do commands from, and because of the way you search it, it's like a hybrid between vim's command-based power and something that's actually discoverable and easy. * Usable on *really big* files, and has one of the best binary-file support I know of. I open binary file a little more than I should, not that I can do much with them. * Useful extensions, installable at a button-press -- C-PinCR[search for package]CR. Like SublimeREPL. I know Emacs/Vim will do better at REPLs, but few others will. * Etc. This goes on. Looking at Dave Angel's list, Sublime Text pretty-much aces it. What I don't understand is where he says: The main negatives I can see are: ... It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) How on earth are those negatives? He basically only dislikes it because you have to use PayPal, which is his choice. I can't say I agree with it though. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
On 07/04/2013 08:38 PM, Joshua Landau wrote: On 4 July 2013 08:32, cutems93 ms2...@cornell.edu wrote: I am researching on editors for my own reference. I found that each of them has some features that other don't, but I am not sure which features are significant/necessary for a GOOD editor. What features do you a good editor should have? Keyboard shortcuts? Extensions? Let me give you some reasons I really, really like Sublime Text. * Fast. Like, really fast. I've used Vim -- Sublime Text is faster. Considering I'm on a middle-end 5-year-old computer (not for long...) this matters. * The rendering is gorgeous. There are subtle shadows, there's perfectly crisp text (the main reason I no longer use terminal editors, actually), and once you choose the right theme (Nexus and Phoenix, Tomorrow Night for me) it's just lovely. There's this feature where it shows you tabs -- but only for the part of the file you're on. There's, instead of a scrollbar, a little bird's-eye-view of the whole code on the RHS. This goes on. Visually it is stunning, in a helpful way. If it had proper terminal-emulation support, I'd replace my terminal with it. It's just that usable an interface. * Multiple cursors. This is something that no-one else really advertises, but it's one of the most used features for me. It's something you just have to try for a while -- I think it's a bit like Vim's power-of-Regex but easy for a, you know, human. (I just found https://github.com/terryma/vim-multiple-cursors). * Good navigation between and inside of files. A lot of things have this, so I won't say much more. * The Command Palette is a dropdown that you do commands from, and because of the way you search it, it's like a hybrid between vim's command-based power and something that's actually discoverable and easy. * Usable on *really big* files, and has one of the best binary-file support I know of. I open binary file a little more than I should, not that I can do much with them. * Useful extensions, installable at a button-press -- C-PinCR[search for package]CR. Like SublimeREPL. I know Emacs/Vim will do better at REPLs, but few others will. * Etc. This goes on. Looking at Dave Angel's list, Sublime Text pretty-much aces it. What I don't understand is where he says: The main negatives I can see are: ... It's available for OS/X, Linux and Windows, with a single purchase The eval/demo is not time-limited (currently) How on earth are those negatives? A typo. I was collecting points and trying to put them in categories, but somehow that didn't end up in the right place. He basically only dislikes it because you have to use PayPal, which is his choice. I can't say I agree with it though. -- DaveA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
In article mailman.4258.1372984732.3114.python-l...@python.org, Joshua Landau joshua.landau...@gmail.com wrote: [talking about Sublime Text] There's, instead of a scrollbar, a little bird's-eye-view of the whole code on the RHS. I've never used it myself, but there's a couple of guys in the office who do. I have to admit, this feature looks pretty neat. Does Sublime have some sort of remote mode? We've got one guy who loves it, but needs to work on a remote machine (i.e. in AWS). I got X11 working for him (he has a Mac desktop), so he can run Sublime on the AWS Linux box and have it display on his Mac desktop, but that's less than ideal. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Important features for editors
[ Digressing to tuning remote access. Sorry. - Cameron ] On 04Jul2013 21:50, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: | Does Sublime have some sort of remote mode? We've got one guy who loves | it, but needs to work on a remote machine (i.e. in AWS). I got X11 | working for him (he has a Mac desktop), so he can run Sublime on the AWS | Linux box and have it display on his Mac desktop, but that's less than | ideal. It's worth pointing out that, depending on the app, X11 can do a fair bit of traffic. Particularly with more recent things on rich widget libraries with animation or drag'n'drop, it can be quite painful because the app's developed on someones local desktop where latency is negligible. Sometimes it is worth running a desktop local to the remote machine (eg using vncserver) and operating it remotely via a viewer (eg a vnc viewer). Although you're now throwign screen updates around as bitmaps of some flavour, this can decouple you from vile spinning progress icons and modal drag'n'drop stuff. (This also insulates you against network drops; just reconnect the viewer, just like screen or tmux do for terminals.) Seamonkey, for example, is like molasses done directly with X11 from a remote host. It used to be snappy, but widget library bling creep has made it an exercise in pain. Another alternative, better still if easy, is to mount the remote system's files on your local machine and run the editor locally. Snappy response, your native widget-set/look'n'feel, and saving a file is normally pretty cheap even remotely; that would normally be your main remote transaction under this model. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au Ninety percent of everything is crud. - Theodore Sturgeon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
