Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[SigmundV]

Bloody hell! This is the most persistent troll I've seen to date. He
expected to get a raging army of pythoners after him, but people are
just laughing at him. This is a mailing list, not a novel, so
colloquialisms are welcome. The language on a mailing list should be
informal and not necessarily grammatically correct.

Sigmund
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Jason Swails]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> David Monaghan wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?
> >>
> >>ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
> >>CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"
> >
> >>ORIGINAL: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"
> >>CONCISE:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"
> >
> >>However as you can see much of the rich information is missing.
> >
> > Indeed. Neither of your two concise examples has the same meaning of the
> > originals.
>
> The second one is considerably different. Consider:
>
> "I have become used to getting up at 3am to be flogged for an hour by my
> boss. Between the sleep deprivation and the scar tissue on my back, I
> hardly feel a thing any more."
>
> versus
>
> "I like getting up at 3am to be flogged for an hour by my boss. I get all
> tingly in my man-bits, if you know what I mean."
>
> The first case is more subtle. The implication of "I used to wear..." is
> that you did back in the past, but no longer do, while "I wore..." has no
> such implication. It merely says that in the past you did this, whether you
> still do or don't is irrelevant.
>

Meh.  We can come up with examples all over the place to support any of our
assertions.  The context is what matters.  In a newspaper article, you'd
often prefer to use "The president wore shoes" to "The president used to
wear shoes" because the extra words and space make a difference, and you
want to be concise while letting people know what happened.  In a public
forum catering to native and non-native English speakers alike, common
phrases like "used to" and "supposed to" are well known and understood.  As
such, I argue they are supposed to be used (to) often.

In such circumstances as these, I say keep your language concise and simple,
and your words will reach the most people (and the fewest killfiles,
perhaps).  As the wise man says, "It's not only quiet people that don't say
much".  (And here RR joins his silent majority).

Peace,
Jason
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 16, 7:33 pm, John Gordon  wrote:
> In  
> rantingrick  writes:
>
> > > "wore" means you have worn them in the past.
>
> > > "used to wear" means you have worn them in the past AND don't intend
> > > to do so again.
> > Actually that assertion is wrong.
> > No one can predict the future. Not even YOU can predict whether or not
>
> Of course -- that's why the word "intend" was part of my answer.  Did you
> overlook that crucial word?
>
> I stand by my assertion that the phrase "I used to do X" carries the
> meaning that you have done X in the past but DO NOT INTEND to do so
> in the future.

Okay and i'm with you as long as you'll also agree that "i wore wooden
shoes" carries the meaning that i've worn shoes in the past but gives
no indication that i will wear shoes again. And if you agree with that
(which is a fact BTW) then you must also agree that "i used to wear
wear wooden shoes" also gives no guarantee that i won't wear them
again.

This point i have been trying to make all along is: Speaking with this
verbiage leaves to much to be desired. To much meaning is specific
*only* to the sender and prone to cause subtle errors upon receiving
due to errors of the "lost-in-translation" kind. We must remove these
ambiguities from our speech and from our code if we ever expect to
evolve into a species capable of taking the next logical step in our
evolution. That step will require massive amounts of coherent and
articulate collaboration across many cultures. How do solve that
problem you ask? By removing all cultures and joining the culture of
Mankind.

We know that knowledge is being spread far and wide and to every
corner of this planet. No one will ever be robbed of an education
because all the knowledge is being cataloged in the world wide library
(WWW). A person living in a mud hut in Africa has the same access to
the knowledge base as a professor working at a prestigious college. No
more will the class structure be relevant because knowledge IS power.

The playing fields are beginning to be leveled and the world is on
course for a huge shake up soon. How soon this event will culminate
into reality is yet to be known however i can assure you people that
at our current rate, sadly it is going to be a very long time!

The transition is not evolving as fast as it should be because we
refuse to eradicate the enormous amounts of multiplicity that plague
our knowledge bases. Language is one of the top offenders, which
manifest itself over and over like a stupidity virus; and the worst
part is that it shows no readily perceivable symptoms to the zombie
masses! These "masses" of hosts continue on day after day infecting
new people with this disease of multi-language-ism and as such entropy
grows. Leaps are made but then setbacks are certain due to entropy. On
and on we continue to be slung back and forth due to this elastic
rubber band of stupidity.

Some folks get emotional when i speak of these things. They confuse
multiplicity with freedom. They fear the loss of their freedom to be
lazy, slothful, and stupid. Yes you have a right to be these things if
you want, but don't be expecting that your gene-pool will be part of
the future because you will be bred out of existence!

The future belongs to the intelligent agents capable of eradicating
multiplicity and harnessing what mother nature could never harness
with billions and billions of years built on innumerable random
guesses... the future belongs to those with an IMAGINATION!

An imagination is the most power tool we posses. With imagination we
can drive evolution. Without imagination nothing you see or know would
exist. We would be caught forever in the infinite loop of ape-ian
stupidity and left to wither as just a blip on the evolutionary
radar.

With our imagination we can not only harness our world but also our
universe (which is far more expansive than we have yet to realize). We
can even harness evolution itself! We can transcend the flesh, and
then, THEN... we shall take our rightful place as the gods! Maybe
there is even an evolution of the gods of which replacements are
created every trillion or so years. We are next in line to replace the
aging gods that now control the known universe.

To continue to deny that we are natures greatest creation would be
tantamount to bitch slapping our very own mothers. Instead we should
make her proud by being all that we can be and using our intelligence
to utterly destroy her and IN EFFECT become something greater in the
process than we ever where before. Progress "progresses" by the
prodigy standing on the shoulders of the creators to reach that "next"
higher cookie jar.

The future is not saving the whales or the dolphins, or the endangered
three toed alligator. Neither is the future "save the earth". The
future is transcendence from the flesh into a new state of being. No
form of matter how well we maintain this earth, one day the sun will
consume it. Likewise one day the sun be consumed. Do not put your

Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Steven D'Aprano]

David Monaghan wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
>  wrote:
> 
>>If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?
>>
>>ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
>>CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"
> 
>>ORIGINAL: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"
>>CONCISE:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"
> 
>>However as you can see much of the rich information is missing.
> 
> Indeed. Neither of your two concise examples has the same meaning of the
> originals.

The second one is considerably different. Consider:

"I have become used to getting up at 3am to be flogged for an hour by my
boss. Between the sleep deprivation and the scar tissue on my back, I
hardly feel a thing any more."

versus 

"I like getting up at 3am to be flogged for an hour by my boss. I get all
tingly in my man-bits, if you know what I mean."

The first case is more subtle. The implication of "I used to wear..." is
that you did back in the past, but no longer do, while "I wore..." has no
such implication. It merely says that in the past you did this, whether you
still do or don't is irrelevant.



-- 
Steven

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Kaynor]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Tim Chase
 wrote:
> On 08/16/2011 07:33 PM, John Gordon wrote:
>>
>> I stand by my assertion that the phrase "I used to do X" carries the
>> meaning that you have done X in the past but DO NOT INTEND to do so
>> in the future.
>
> I'd tweak the meaning to be something like "I did X regularly in the past
> and I no longer do it regularly".  E.g. "I used to drink a lot of cranberry
> juice"[*] connotes that I drank it regularly, but no longer drink it
> regularly, even though I might still drink it occasionally.  But on the
> whole, I side with John far more than I side with RR on the issue.

There is a difference between "I used to drink cranberry juice" and "I
used to drink a lot of cranberry juice". The first says that you no
longer drink it at all, while the latter has quantified the statement
to say you may still drink it occasionally, but less than you used to.
The key is that "a lot" quantifies "drink" in the second statement.

>
> -tkc
>
>
> [*] seriously, in college I managed to put away over a gal/day. Ah, to be
> young again and have an unlimited cafeteria food-plan.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Tim Chase]

On 08/16/2011 07:33 PM, John Gordon wrote:

I stand by my assertion that the phrase "I used to do X" carries the
meaning that you have done X in the past but DO NOT INTEND to do so
in the future.


I'd tweak the meaning to be something like "I did X regularly in 
the past and I no longer do it regularly".  E.g. "I used to drink 
a lot of cranberry juice"[*] connotes that I drank it regularly, 
but no longer drink it regularly, even though I might still drink 
it occasionally.  But on the whole, I side with John far more 
than I side with RR on the issue.


-tkc


[*] seriously, in college I managed to put away over a gal/day. 
Ah, to be young again and have an unlimited cafeteria food-plan.






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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[John Gordon]

In  
rantingrick  writes:

> > "wore" means you have worn them in the past.
> >
> > "used to wear" means you have worn them in the past AND don't intend
> > to do so again.

> Actually that assertion is wrong.

> No one can predict the future. Not even YOU can predict whether or not

Of course -- that's why the word "intend" was part of my answer.  Did you
overlook that crucial word?

I stand by my assertion that the phrase "I used to do X" carries the
meaning that you have done X in the past but DO NOT INTEND to do so
in the future.

-- 
John Gordon   A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com  B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 16, 6:25 pm, John Gordon  wrote:
> In  
> rantingrick  writes:
>
> > 
> >  ORIGINAL1: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
> > 
> > CONCISE_1a: "I wore wooden shoes"
>
> "wore" does not convey the same meaning as "used to wear."
>
> "wore" means you have worn them in the past.
>
> "used to wear" means you have worn them in the past AND don't intend
> to do so again.

Actually that assertion is wrong.

Take (in the extreme example) that you were (in the past) forced to
wear a tutu. You did not like wearing the tutu but someone put a gun
to your head, so you did it. Now. If later someone asks you "Have you
ever been forced to wear anything you did not like?" and you replied
"Yes, i wore a tutu [once]", there is no way anyone could extrapolate
from that statement whether or not you would NEVER wear a tutu again.

So the moral is: Just because something happened in the past does not
mean it will happen in the future. The fact remains that "wore" and
"used to wear" both compile down to the same "past tense" event
HOWEVER neither have the capacity to predict future events.

No one can predict the future. Not even YOU can predict whether or not
you will wear a tutu again. You may say you would "never" wear a tutu
again however you can NEVER be sure about that statement without a
time machine, and lots of free time.

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[David Monaghan]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
 wrote:

>On Aug 16, 4:55 pm, David Monaghan  wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?
>>
>> >ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
>> >CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"
>> >ORIGINAL: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"
>> >CONCISE:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"
>> >However as you can see much of the rich information is missing.
>>
>> Indeed. Neither of your two concise examples has the same meaning of the
>> originals.
>
>Really? Are you sure?

Yes.

> ORIGINAL1: "I used to wear wooden shoes"

There's an implicit corollary to this sentence: "...but I don't any more",
which is missing from your concise sentence:

>CONCISE_1a: "I wore wooden shoes"

> ORIGINAL_2: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"

This carries the meaning, "I wasn't always comfortable/accustomed to wearing
wooden shoes, but I am now". This is a totally different meaning from:

>CONCISE_2a:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"

which refers only to the present and is much more positive. 

In fact, now I consider it, these examples are so clearly different that you
can't be a native English speaker. Either that, or I've just fed a troll.
Damn.

DaveM
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[John Gordon]

In  
rantingrick  writes:

> 
>  ORIGINAL1: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
> 

> CONCISE_1a: "I wore wooden shoes"

"wore" does not convey the same meaning as "used to wear."

"wore" means you have worn them in the past.

"used to wear" means you have worn them in the past AND don't intend
to do so again.

-- 
John Gordon   A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com  B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 16, 4:55 pm, David Monaghan  wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
>
>  wrote:
> >If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?
>
> >ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
> >CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"
> >ORIGINAL: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"
> >CONCISE:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"
> >However as you can see much of the rich information is missing.
>
> Indeed. Neither of your two concise examples has the same meaning of the
> originals.

Really? Are you sure?


 ORIGINAL1: "I used to wear wooden shoes"


CONCISE_1a: "I wore wooden shoes"
the word "wore" is "past tense" and can be replaced with the "past
tense" phrase of "used to wear" without changing any meaning
whatsoever -- albeit the latter is childish!

CONCISE_1b: "I wore wood shoes"
Wooden = "object made of wood" = "flesh of a tree"
Wood = "the flesh of a tree"
Completely interchangeable!

CONCISE_1c: "I< Different phrasings of all but the most basic sentences often have subtle
> differences of meaning which native speakers intend and understand. 1984 has
> been and gone. Shame on you!

Guido himself admitted that hidden descriptors are real. The inception
has begun!
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[David Monaghan]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT), rantingrick
 wrote:

>If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?
>
>ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
>CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"

>ORIGINAL: "I have become used to wearing wooden shoes"
>CONCISE:  "I like wearing wooden shoes"

>However as you can see much of the rich information is missing. 

Indeed. Neither of your two concise examples has the same meaning of the
originals. 

>Good communication requires that we use clear and articulate words (and
>phrases) that will re-create a similar thought (if not perfect clone of!) 
>in the mind of your listener[s].

Different phrasings of all but the most basic sentences often have subtle
differences of meaning which native speakers intend and understand. 1984 has
been and gone. Shame on you!

DaveM
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 16, 1:37 pm, "Martin P. Hellwig" 
wrote:

> Well admittedly English isn't my native language, But indeed all
> sentences seem correct to me.
>
> With the first sentence meaning: in the past I wore wooden shoes, but
> presently I do not.
>
> With the second sentence meaning: in the past I was not used to (i.e.
> uncomfortable, hey bonus points!) wearing wooden shoes, but presently I
> am used to it (although not necessarily comfortable, but at least not
> uncomfortable).
>
> I actually can't figure out a way of saying those two sentences more
> concise or correct then it has been given.

If conciseness is all you seek then perhaps you prefer the following?

ORIGINAL: "I used to wear wooden shoes"
CONCISE:  "I wore wooden shoes"
  "I wore wood shoes"
  "I

Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[MRAB]

On 16/08/2011 19:37, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:

On 16/08/2011 18:51, Prasad, Ramit wrote:

Incorrect past tense usage of "used to":
""" I "used to" wear wooden shoes """



Incorrect description using "used to":
""" I have become "used to" wearing wooden shoes """



Correct usage of "used to":
""" Wooden shoes can be "used to" torture someone """


Double you tee eff? Maybe this is a cultural language difference, but
I believe all of the above are correct. Well, I am not sure about the
middle one but the other two are valid.


Well admittedly English isn't my native language, But indeed all
sentences seem correct to me.


English _is_ my native language, and I agree with you.


With the first sentence meaning: in the past I wore wooden shoes, but
presently I do not.


Correct.


With the second sentence meaning: in the past I was not used to (i.e.
uncomfortable, hey bonus points!) wearing wooden shoes, but presently I
am used to it (although not necessarily comfortable, but at least not
uncomfortable).


Correct.


I actually can't figure out a way of saying those two sentences more
concise or correct then it has been given.

But then again I do recognize that these are quite 'Germanic'* ways of
constructing sentences, as in freely mixing past, present and future to
indicate that a certain description is restricted to a specific time frame.


* For the lack of a better description, I am not a linguist, but I was
born in Germany and I am often guilty of mixing times.

Also RR, congratualation to another troll post that turned out quite
interesting :-)


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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Martin P. Hellwig
 wrote:
> With the second sentence meaning: in the past I was not used to (i.e.
> uncomfortable, hey bonus points!) wearing wooden shoes, but presently I am
> used to it (although not necessarily comfortable, but at least not
> uncomfortable).
>

This usage can also be seen in a more archaic form, such as this
example from WS Gilbert's "The Yeomen of the Guard" (which, as it
happens, I'm presently in rehearsal of):

Lieutenant: "I see. I think that manner of thing would be somewhat irritating."
Jack: "At first, sir, perhaps; but use is everything, and you would
come in time to like it."

We would be more inclined to say "You'd get used to it". I don't see
that this usage (heh) should be considered in any way wrong.

ChrisA
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Martin P. Hellwig]

On 16/08/2011 18:51, Prasad, Ramit wrote:

Incorrect past tense usage of "used to":
""" I "used to" wear wooden shoes """



Incorrect description using "used to":
""" I have become "used to" wearing wooden shoes """



Correct usage of "used to":
""" Wooden shoes can be "used to" torture someone """


Double you tee eff? Maybe this is a cultural language difference, but I believe 
all of the above are correct. Well, I am not sure about the middle one but the 
other two are valid.

Well admittedly English isn't my native language, But indeed all 
sentences seem correct to me.


With the first sentence meaning: in the past I wore wooden shoes, but 
presently I do not.


With the second sentence meaning: in the past I was not used to (i.e. 
uncomfortable, hey bonus points!) wearing wooden shoes, but presently I 
am used to it (although not necessarily comfortable, but at least not 
uncomfortable).


I actually can't figure out a way of saying those two sentences more 
concise or correct then it has been given.


But then again I do recognize that these are quite 'Germanic'* ways of 
constructing sentences, as in freely mixing past, present and future to 
indicate that a certain description is restricted to a specific time frame.



* For the lack of a better description, I am not a linguist, but I was 
born in Germany and I am often guilty of mixing times.


Also RR, congratualation to another troll post that turned out quite 
interesting :-)


--
mph
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RE: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Prasad, Ramit]

>Incorrect past tense usage of "used to":
> """ I "used to" wear wooden shoes """

>Incorrect description using "used to":
> """ I have become "used to" wearing wooden shoes """

>Correct usage of "used to":
> """ Wooden shoes can be "used to" torture someone """

Double you tee eff? Maybe this is a cultural language difference, but I believe 
all of the above are correct. Well, I am not sure about the middle one but the 
other two are valid.


http://www.englishgrammarsecrets.com/usedto/menu.php
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/usedto.html
http://www.5minuteenglish.com/mar20.htm
http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/usedtotext.htm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/used+to
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-m_used-to-do.htm




Ramit

P.S. Please CC me on any reply.


Ramit Prasad | JPMorgan Chase Investment Bank | Currencies Technology
712 Main Street | Houston, TX 77002
work phone: 713 - 216 - 5423



-Original Message-
From: python-list-bounces+ramit.prasad=jpmorgan@python.org 
[mailto:python-list-bounces+ramit.prasad=jpmorgan....@python.org] On Behalf Of 
rantingrick
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:06 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

On Aug 16, 2:07 am, alex23  wrote:

> All the way down indeed. Can you pick who said these?

Obviously your grep skills are superb however you need to brush up on
those reading and comprehension skills a bit.

> "There are noobs watching and we to provide code that can be used to
> teach!"

Yes i said this, however the use of "used to" is proper here. -1

> "And just what *point* an i supposed to be "getting" Stephen?"

Yes i said this, and it "may" seem that you have me on this one
however i believe that Stephen had said something like """you are
"supposed to" blah, blah""" and i retorted with """oh, and just what
*point* am i "supposed to" blah blah blah"""... although i DID forget
to quote "supposed to", still it's a -1.

> "An end user should NEVER EVER have to write glue code so their
> "abstraction of choice" can be used to to script an API."

Yes i said this, however AGAIN the use of "used to" is proper here.
-1.

sorry alex, better luck next time :(. Follows is some homework i have
prepared for you so that you can understand the proper and improper
usage of "used to".

For our next assignment we'll be learning about the exploits of Jack
and Jill.

> (For bonus points: can you also spot who is bored at work today?)

Trolling doesn't count as "work" unless you're being paid for it,
however some people might consider you a pro by now!

PS: Does anyone notice how Stephen has fallen off the face the earth?
Where is Stephen i wonder? He was such a vocal nuisance and then he
just disappeared. It seemed like he appeared as strangely as he
disappeared. Well, he's probably where most sock puppets go when they
have no further usage.

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 16, 2:07 am, alex23  wrote:

> All the way down indeed. Can you pick who said these?

Obviously your grep skills are superb however you need to brush up on
those reading and comprehension skills a bit.

> "There are noobs watching and we to provide code that can be used to
> teach!"

Yes i said this, however the use of "used to" is proper here. -1

> "And just what *point* an i supposed to be "getting" Stephen?"

Yes i said this, and it "may" seem that you have me on this one
however i believe that Stephen had said something like """you are
"supposed to" blah, blah""" and i retorted with """oh, and just what
*point* am i "supposed to" blah blah blah"""... although i DID forget
to quote "supposed to", still it's a -1.

> "An end user should NEVER EVER have to write glue code so their
> "abstraction of choice" can be used to to script an API."

Yes i said this, however AGAIN the use of "used to" is proper here.
-1.

sorry alex, better luck next time :(. Follows is some homework i have
prepared for you so that you can understand the proper and improper
usage of "used to".

Incorrect past tense usage of "used to":
 """ I "used to" wear wooden shoes """

Incorrect description using "used to":
 """ I have become "used to" wearing wooden shoes """

Correct usage of "used to":
 """ Wooden shoes can be "used to" torture someone """

For our next assignment we'll be learning about the exploits of Jack
and Jill.

> (For bonus points: can you also spot who is bored at work today?)

Trolling doesn't count as "work" unless you're being paid for it,
however some people might consider you a pro by now!

PS: Does anyone notice how Stephen has fallen off the face the earth?
Where is Stephen i wonder? He was such a vocal nuisance and then he
just disappeared. It seemed like he appeared as strangely as he
disappeared. Well, he's probably where most sock puppets go when they
have no further usage.

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[alex23]

rantingrick  wrote:
> These specific phrases i have pointed out ("used to" and "supposed
> to") are a result of a mind choosing the easy way out instead of
> putting in the wee bit more effort required to express one's self in
> an articulate manner. Also these two phrases are quite prolifically
> used within his community (among others), from the BDFL on down.

All the way down indeed. Can you pick who said these?

"There are noobs watching and we to provide code that can be used to
teach!"

"And just what *point* an i supposed to be "getting" Stephen?"

"An end user should NEVER EVER have to write glue code so their
"abstraction of choice" can be used to to script an API."

(For bonus points: can you also spot who is bored at work today?)
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 15, 7:48 pm, Gregory Ewing  wrote:
> rantingrick wrote:
> > "Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
> > and idiots.
>
> So when we reach a certain age we're meant to abandon
> short, concise and idomatic ways of speaking, and substitute
> long words and phrases to make ourselves sound adult and
> educated?

Well that is the idea anyway. Not that we should be overly pedantic
about it of course, however some words need to be cast off before we
leave the "primary school playground" in the name of articulate
communication.

These specific phrases i have pointed out ("used to" and "supposed
to") are a result of a mind choosing the easy way out instead of
putting in the wee bit more effort required to express one's self in
an articulate manner. Also these two phrases are quite prolifically
used within his community (among others), from the BDFL on down. It's
a slippery slope my friend.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Seebs]

On 2011-08-16, Roy Smith  wrote:
> In article <9att9mf71...@mid.individual.net>,
>  Gregory Ewing  wrote:
>
>> I don't mind people using e.g. and i.e. as long
>> as they use them *correctly*.
>
> The only correct way to use i.e. is to use it to download a better 
> browser.

Similarly:

Boy, is there, e.g., on my face now!

-s
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I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Roy Smith]

In article <9att9mf71...@mid.individual.net>,
 Gregory Ewing  wrote:

> I don't mind people using e.g. and i.e. as long
> as they use them *correctly*.

The only correct way to use i.e. is to use it to download a better 
browser.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[MRAB]

On 16/08/2011 01:52, Gregory Ewing wrote:

I don't mind people using e.g. and i.e. as long
as they use them *correctly*.

Many times people use i.e. when they really
mean e.g.


Can you give me an example? :-)
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:48 am Gregory Ewing wrote:

> rantingrick wrote:
>> "Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
>> and idiots.
> 
> So when we reach a certain age we're meant to abandon
> short, concise and idomatic ways of speaking, and substitute
> long words and phrases to make ourselves sound adult and
> educated?

Say what?

"Used to" isn't idiom. It is grammatical English. Avoidance of "used to" is
a hyper-correction done by people who don't know as much about English as
they think, like "the grammar policeman let Johnny and I off with a
warning", perhaps the most widespread hyper-correction in English.

(If you take Johnny out of the picture, the policeman let I off with a
warning... which is obviously wrong. Whether Johnny was there or not, the
policeman let *me* off with a warning.)

"Used to" is unexceptional English:

http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/usedto.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/youmeus/quiznet/newquiz114.shtml
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-m_used-to-do.htm
http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/usedtotext2.htm


Any-grammatical-errors-are-deliberate-ly y'rs,



-- 
Steven

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Roy Smith]

In article <9att2bf71...@mid.individual.net>,
 Gregory Ewing  wrote:

> rantingrick wrote:
> > "Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
> > and idiots.
> 
> So when we reach a certain age we're meant to abandon
> short, concise and idomatic ways of speaking, and substitute
> long words and phrases to make ourselves sound adult and
> educated?

Yup.
-- 
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Gregory Ewing]

I don't mind people using e.g. and i.e. as long
as they use them *correctly*.

Many times people use i.e. when they really
mean e.g.

--
Greg
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Gregory Ewing]

rantingrick wrote:

"Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
and idiots.


So when we reach a certain age we're meant to abandon
short, concise and idomatic ways of speaking, and substitute
long words and phrases to make ourselves sound adult and
educated?

--
Greg
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2011-08-15, MRAB  wrote:
> On 15/08/2011 17:18, Lucio Santi wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Neil Cerutti > > wrote:
>>
>> On 2011-08-14, Chris Angelico > > wrote:
>>  > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Irmen de Jong
>> mailto:irmen.nos...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>  >> On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
>>  >>> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use
>> "e.g."
>>  >>> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
>>  >>> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots
>> whist
>>  >>> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!
>>  >>
>>  >> I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where
>>  >> are the tulips and windmills for extra credit?
>>  >>
>>  >> Greetings from a Dutchman!
>>
>> No credit. E.g., i.e., exampla gratis, means, "for example."
>>
>>
>> The correct spelling is 'exempli gratia'. It's Latin.

Thanks for the correction.

>> i.e., on the other hand, comes from 'id est' ('that is').
>> Latin too.
>
> I remember reading a book about polymorphism in programming.
> The author said it came from Latin. Nope.

Sounds more like Greek.

-- 
Neil Cerutti
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[MRAB]

On 15/08/2011 17:18, Lucio Santi wrote:



On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Neil Cerutti mailto:ne...@norwich.edu>> wrote:

On 2011-08-14, Chris Angelico mailto:ros...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Irmen de Jong
mailto:irmen.nos...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
 >> On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
 >>> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use
"e.g."
 >>> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
 >>> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots
whist
 >>> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!
 >>
 >> I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where
 >> are the tulips and windmills for extra credit?
 >>
 >> Greetings from a Dutchman!

No credit. E.g., i.e., exampla gratis, means, "for example."


The correct spelling is 'exempli gratia'. It's Latin.

i.e., on the other hand, comes from 'id est' ('that is'). Latin too.

I remember reading a book about polymorphism in programming. The author 
said

it came from Latin. Nope.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Lucio Santi]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Neil Cerutti  wrote:

> On 2011-08-14, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Irmen de Jong 
> wrote:
> >> On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
> >>> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use "e.g."
> >>> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
> >>> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots whist
> >>> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!
> >>
> >> I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where
> >> are the tulips and windmills for extra credit?
> >>
> >> Greetings from a Dutchman!
>
> No credit. E.g., i.e., exampla gratis, means, "for example."
>

The correct spelling is 'exempli gratia'. It's Latin.

i.e., on the other hand, comes from 'id est' ('that is'). Latin too.


Regards,

Lucio
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2011-08-14, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Irmen de Jong  wrote:
>> On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
>>> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use "e.g."
>>> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
>>> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots whist
>>> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!
>>
>> I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where
>> are the tulips and windmills for extra credit?
>>
>> Greetings from a Dutchman!

No credit. E.g., i.e., exampla gratis, means, "for example."

-- 
Neil Cerutti
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Seebs]

On 2011-08-15, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> And yet, here you are, engaging him in conversation and feeding him the
> attention he craves :(

Many cultures have a tradition of almsgiving.

-s
-- 
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http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Christophe Chong]

I can't tell which comments are sarcastic

On Aug 14, 2011, at 18:35, rantingrick  wrote:

> On Aug 14, 5:01 pm, Dave Angel  wrote:
> 
>> Interesting that when you complain about other's grammatical typos,
>> you're so careless with your own.
>> 
>> know -> now
>> i -> I
>> accustom -> accustomed
>> the this -> this
>> 
>> I'm inclined to ignore typos in emails except in the case where the
>> intent is to abuse others.
> 
> My intent is NOT to abuse, but to enlighten. And you need to look up
> the definition of typo because i am not complaining about typos. Typos
> are accidents. Even the best of us suffer from accidents.
> 
> What i AM complaining about is the adoption of a collectively foolish
> consistency. "Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
> and idiots. I am trying to break these people out of such foolish
> loops. You should be thanking me instead of trolling my posts.
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 14, 7:56 pm, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> > I think you need to start a blog, Rick.
> > You'd be easier to ignore.
>
> And yet, here you are, engaging him in conversation and feeding him the
> attention he craves :(

Yes, Steven loves rule # 2. Second only to the strawmen armies he has
built.

Kurtz: "What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin?"
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 14, 5:01 pm, Dave Angel  wrote:

> Interesting that when you complain about other's grammatical typos,
> you're so careless with your own.
>
> know -> now
> i -> I
> accustom -> accustomed
> the this -> this
>
> I'm inclined to ignore typos in emails except in the case where the
> intent is to abuse others.

My intent is NOT to abuse, but to enlighten. And you need to look up
the definition of typo because i am not complaining about typos. Typos
are accidents. Even the best of us suffer from accidents.

What i AM complaining about is the adoption of a collectively foolish
consistency. "Used to" and "supposed to" is the verbiage of children
and idiots. I am trying to break these people out of such foolish
loops. You should be thanking me instead of trolling my posts.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Steven D'Aprano]

Chris Angelico wrote:

> I think you need to start a blog, Rick.
>
> You'd be easier to ignore.


And yet, here you are, engaging him in conversation and feeding him the
attention he craves :(



-- 
Steven

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Dave Angel  wrote:
> I'm inclined to ignore typos in emails except in the case where the intent
> is to abuse others.
>

+1 QOTW.

It is, however, a well-known tradition that spelling/grammar flames
should contain one spelling/grammer error.

Oh, I just did it myself, didn't I.

ChrisA
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Dave Angel]

On 01/-10/-28163 02:59 PM, rantingrick wrote:

On Aug 14, 12:57 am, rantingrick  wrote:


9. Never use the word "previously" or the phrase "in the past"; just
dumb it down with "used to".

I had forgot to mention one other usage of "used to":

WRONG: "I used to not like indention but know i am very used to it"
RIGHT: "Previously i lamented forced indentation but i have since
grown quite accustomed to it"

Also the usage of "supposed to" is rather foolish.

WRONG: "We are supposed to write clean code but i am not used to that"
RIGHT: "We are required to write clean code however i am not accustom
to that way of thinking.

Gawd, sometimes i feel like i'm watching an episode of squidbillies
when i read the this list.



Interesting that when you complain about other's grammatical typos, 
you're so careless with your own.


know -> now
i -> I
accustom -> accustomed
the this -> this

I'm inclined to ignore typos in emails except in the case where the 
intent is to abuse others.


DaveA

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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[harrismh777]

Chris Angelico wrote:

I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where are the tulips and 
windmills
>  for extra credit?
>
>  Greetings from a Dutchman!

Is partial credit available for part-Dutch people, e.g. those with at
least two grandparents from Holland?



... do we get extra credit for having our own shoes... my pair are 
official (e.g. hand-carved in Holland, with little windmills wood-burned 
on the bow... )


... mine also have lambs wool lining... don't know it that adds anything 
official, but they sure feel great!



kind r'gards,




--
m harris

FSF  ...free as in freedom/
http://webpages.charter.net/harrismh777/gnulinux/gnulinux.htm
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Tim Chase]

On 08/14/2011 12:38 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 6:21 PM, rantingrick  wrote:


WRONG: "We are supposed to write clean code but i am not used to that"
RIGHT: "We are required to write clean code however i am not accustom
to that way of thinking.


Since when are we required to write clean code? If I write unclean
code (that's code with an undivided hoof, if you're Jewish), or if I
don't write code at all, will I be kicked from the group?


Any time your code sends Spam or is a resource hog, it would be 
unclean by both Jewish and Muslim anti-porcine standards :)



I think you need to start a blog, Rick.

You'd be easier to ignore.


+1 QOTW

-tkc



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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 6:21 PM, rantingrick  wrote:
>
> WRONG: "We are supposed to write clean code but i am not used to that"
> RIGHT: "We are required to write clean code however i am not accustom
> to that way of thinking.
>

Since when are we required to write clean code? If I write unclean
code (that's code with an undivided hoof, if you're Jewish), or if I
don't write code at all, will I be kicked from the group?

I think you need to start a blog, Rick.

You'd be easier to ignore.

ChrisA
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

On Aug 14, 12:57 am, rantingrick  wrote:

> 9. Never use the word "previously" or the phrase "in the past"; just
> dumb it down with "used to".

I had forgot to mention one other usage of "used to":

WRONG: "I used to not like indention but know i am very used to it"
RIGHT: "Previously i lamented forced indentation but i have since
grown quite accustomed to it"

Also the usage of "supposed to" is rather foolish.

WRONG: "We are supposed to write clean code but i am not used to that"
RIGHT: "We are required to write clean code however i am not accustom
to that way of thinking.

Gawd, sometimes i feel like i'm watching an episode of squidbillies
when i read the this list.






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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Kevin Walzer]

I'd like to post a detailed response, e.g. a point-by-point engagement 
with Rantingrick's list, but as I lack time, this will have to suffice:


http://xkcd.com/386/

There! Can I get my community pin now? :-)
--
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Irmen de Jong  wrote:
> On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
>> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use "e.g."
>> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
>> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots whist
>> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!
>
> I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where are the tulips 
> and windmills
> for extra credit?
>
> Greetings from a Dutchman!

Is partial credit available for part-Dutch people, e.g. those with at
least two grandparents from Holland?

(Couldn't resist sticking an e.g. in there, even though I know it's
just feeding the troll...)

Irmen, you definitely get bonus points for a .nl domain.

ChrisA
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Irmen de Jong]

On 14-8-2011 7:57, rantingrick wrote:
> 8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use "e.g."
> more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
> Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots whist
> walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!

I lolled about this one, e.g. I laughed out loud. But where are the tulips and 
windmills
for extra credit?

Greetings from a Dutchman!

Irmen
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Alister Ware
 wrote:
> That would mark the first constructive action from rantingnick ever
>
> Surely that would mark the end of the sentient universe?

Only if he actually did it. Many's the time people have called for him
to write a PEP, or (better still) to write some actual code. Unless,
as seems likely, Ranting Rick is not his real name, I do not know that
he has ever done so.

(What sort of mother names her son "Ranting Rick", anyway?)

ChrisA
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Alister Ware]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 02:54:44 -0500, Andrew Berg wrote:

> On 2011.08.14 12:57 AM, rantingrick wrote:
>> Follow these simply rules to become an accepted member of the Python
>> community.
> Sounds good. You should consider submitting this as a PEP.

That would mark the first constructive action from rantingnick ever

Surely that would mark the end of the sentient universe?



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from their girlfriends
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Seebs]

On 2011-08-14, rantingrick  wrote:
> Follow these simply rules to become an accepted member of the Python
> community.

> 1. Bash rantingrick and Xah Lee every chance you get.

... If I'd known you were in the same category as him, I wouldn't have
needed to wait until now to know to plonk you.

-s
-- 
Copyright 2011, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
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I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.
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Re: Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[Andrew Berg]

On 2011.08.14 12:57 AM, rantingrick wrote:
> Follow these simply rules to become an accepted member of the Python
> community.
Sounds good. You should consider submitting this as a PEP.

-- 
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PGP/GPG Public Key ID: 0xF88E034060A78FCB
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Ten rules to becoming a Python community member.

[rantingrick]

Follow these simply rules to become an accepted member of the Python
community.


1. Bash rantingrick and Xah Lee every chance you get.

2. Bash people who bash rick or xah because their basing made rick's
or xah's words pass through your spam filter.

3. Post links to xkcd as often as you can. Don't worry if they have
been posted a thousand times, just post them because it equals "geek
cool points".

4. When the chance presents itself, make snide comments about lisp and
perl; but NEVER about Ruby! (even though Ruby is Perl's micro
minion!).

5. Use fancy words like "tail recursion", just because you read about
it on Guido's blog once (even if you have no idea what that means)!

6. Engage in heated and pointless discussions as to whether Python is
"pass-by-reference" or "pass-by-value" even if you have no idea what
the hell you are talking about.

7. Play devils advocate often e.g., If someone hates Tkinter: then
argue how great Tkinter is regardless of how much you actually care,
use, or know about the module. Likewise if someone likes Tkinter: then
argue how terrible Tkinter is and how Python does not need any GUI
library; again, regardless of how much you actually care, use, or know
about the module.

8. Use "e.g." as many times as you can! (e.g. e.g.) If you use "e.g."
more than ten times in a single post, you will get an invite to
Guido's next birthday party; where you'll be forced to do shots whist
walking the balcony railing wearing wooden shoes!

9. Never use the word "previously" or the phrase "in the past"; just
dumb it down with "used to".

10. Finally, if you get caught using the word "that" incredibly
excessively, just hope that nobody notices that that that you are
really GvR in disguise.

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