Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. ... I wanted to know what will I need? 1 learn network/socket programming I was actually expecting somebody to mention Twisted :) (or Tornado) You'll find it easy to use any of these frameworks to power the back-end chat engine. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jake Angulo jake.ang...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. ... I wanted to know what will I need? 1 learn network/socket programming I was actually expecting somebody to mention Twisted :) (or Tornado) You'll find it easy to use any of these frameworks to power the back-end chat engine. For something this simple, what do they offer above the basic socket module? I know that sounds critical but it's not meant to be; I've never looked into either, as I've grown up using the BSD socket APIs (in C, 80x86 assembly, C++, REXX, Java, Pike, and Python, on DOS (I think), OS/2, Windows, and Linux... and possibly other languages/platforms that I've now forgotten), and am comfortable with them; but for someone who hasn't been in networking for two decades, is there a noteworthy ease-of-starting difference? Bear in mind that use of a framework locks you in to that framework and its ecosystem (so, most likely, language), while grokking sockets themselves gives you the freedom to move as required. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, 2013-07-18, Chris Angelico wrote: ... You can certainly do your server-side programming directly in Python; in fact, I recommend it for this task. There's no reason to use HTTP, much less a web framework (which usually consists of a structured way to build HTML pages, plus a bunch of routing and stuff, none of which you need). All you need is a simple structure for separating one message from another. I would recommend either going MUD/TELNET style and ending each message with a newline, or prefixing each message with its length in octets. Both ways work very nicely; newline-termination allows you to use a MUD client for debugging, which I find very convenient It's definitely the way to go. It's not just MUDs -- a lot of Internet protocols work that way. Netcat is one popular client for talking to/debugging/testing such servers. No doubt MUD clients too, but last time I did such stuff was in 1993, and I think I used telnet ... In fact, I'd design the protocol before starting to write code. Or better, steal some existing chat protocol. Like a subset of IRC. There's also another question in the original posting that bothers me: paraphrased do I need to learn database programming to manage users? No! Unix does fine with plain-text files. Managing credentials (understanding cryptography, setting up a support organization for resetting lost passwords ...) is non-trivial though, so try to do without such things at first. It's not obvious that you should need an account for an experimental chat, anyway. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn grahn@ Oo o. . . \X/ snipabacken.se O o . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Jorgen Grahn grahn+n...@snipabacken.se wrote: On Thu, 2013-07-18, Chris Angelico wrote: ... You can certainly do your server-side programming directly in Python; in fact, I recommend it for this task. There's no reason to use HTTP, much less a web framework (which usually consists of a structured way to build HTML pages, plus a bunch of routing and stuff, none of which you need). All you need is a simple structure for separating one message from another. I would recommend either going MUD/TELNET style and ending each message with a newline, or prefixing each message with its length in octets. Both ways work very nicely; newline-termination allows you to use a MUD client for debugging, which I find very convenient It's definitely the way to go. It's not just MUDs -- a lot of Internet protocols work that way. Netcat is one popular client for talking to/debugging/testing such servers. No doubt MUD clients too, but last time I did such stuff was in 1993, and I think I used telnet Yeah. As I mentioned, I'm a MUDder with tens of thousands of online hours on Threshold RPG[1], and have written several MUD clients; in fact, I'm right now working on Gypsum (fun fun). The most common internet protocols all: * Involve a well-known TCP port and a single socket connection (apart from FTP) * Begin with a one-line (usually) greeting from the server * Have a line-based request-and-response system * Have normal lines divided into command and parameters as per shell commands * (Usually) have an easy way to recognize success/failure, even without understanding the whole response * Are human-readable to the extreme * Rely on lower-level protocols for encryption (eg TLS) The mail trilogy (SMTP, POP, IMAP) are all like this, with the caveat that IMAP tags commands and responses (so the second word, not the first, is the command). FTP is almost there, apart from its secondary data channel. MUDs are definitely right there. And when I started putting together some networking facilities at work, I naturally gravitated to this kind of system. Even when it's a purely internal protocol, I like being able to just telnet/netcat to the service and operate everything manually. To date, I think I've implemented five or six such protocols within the suite at work, with only a couple of systems done differently (one of them uses a PHP client, for hysterical raisins, so it's done over HTTP). Plus, it's great to be able to break out the MUD client at work without getting in trouble for playing games on company time :) ChrisA [1] http://www.thresholdrpg.com/ if you'd like to join me! You'll be made very welcome! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. A good thing to start with. Yes, it's been done before, many times... but if you think about it, it's the fundamental on which pretty much everything else is derived. The step from a multi-person chat system to a multiplayer game is very slight. I wanted to know what will I need? I think that would require me these 1 learn network/socket programming 2 find a free server to host my chat server 3 GUI development for clients Learn network programming, definitely. As an adjunct to that, learn networking security. For instance, do not think in terms of the client will only ever send X; the server has to be able to cope, safely, with any stream of bytes coming from the socket. Also, be sure you understand the difference between bytes (or octets) and Unicode characters, and know what everything is. Python 3 helps with this. Finding hosting (I'll use the word server here to mean the program, and will say hosting when I mean a computer) is optional though; for your first tests, use your own computer. You can run the server and a number of clients all on the same computer, and alt-tab between them; or, if you have a LAN, you can use that. Then when you want to expand to the full internet and let your friends in on this, you can still host it on your home internet connection, though you may need to choose carefully which port you use (some home connections prevent incoming port 25 and 80 traffic). You won't need to worry about hosting until (a) you need it to be up 24x7 and don't want to depend on your home system, and/or (b) you need more bandwidth/processing than your home connection will do. Neither will be true of your first experiments. GUI development, in my opinion, should be left for Phase Two. Start by making a very simple system that just works with plain text; later on, make a fancy graphical interface. Keep the text version working, and keep them compatible. Trust me, you'll appreciate that text one when you start debugging - it'll be so easy to see what's going on. -I wanted to know whether these are all that I would need or are there more things? -Will I need to learn a web framework like Django? Hmm. I would think not; I'd recommend that a chat system work with TCP sockets directly, for simplicity and performance. Working with a web framework implies working with HTTP, and unless you're running this in a web browser, there's no reason to do that. -Will I need to learn something for database management like sql for handling people's account names and password? Optional. Leave that for Phase Two; to start off with, just let people type in their own names, and don't worry about authentication initially (this isn't such a crazy idea - IRC largely works this way). You can add authentication later. Any other advice for me(a novice programmer)? Get to know as many tools as you can, so that when you're faced with a problem, you can select the right one for the job. You are not Jeremy Clarkson, your toolchest is not all hammers :) In this particular instance, you may find that Python is the best language for the clients, but not for the server. I've written a number of chat-server-like systems, most notably MUD clients and derivatives, and I use Pike for the server. Its biggest advantage (over Python) is that you can tweak the code while it's running; I've had Pike servers running for over two years on commodity hardware (and would still have that uptime today if the UPS hadn't died). Still trying to claw all that back.. up to 25 weeks so far. Pike and Python are extremely similar in semantics (even down to having a nearly-identical internal string representation, as of Python 3.3), but have distinctly different syntax (Pike looks like C), and their optimizations are quite different, so performance varies somewhat. They're both high level languages that let you manipulate functions, dictionaries, etc, as first-class objects, they're both sufficiently high performance/efficiency to run something like this on 0.00 load average (my server's load is more usually from Apache serving PHP pages than it is from either Pike or Python), and both will serve you well in this project. One more tip: Don't be afraid to ask for help! I personally *love* networking, and will gladly help out with any little problems you run into; the same, I am sure, will be true of a good number of people on this list. Networking is a complicated world, and there are a lot of odd concepts to master; but it's also an immensely fun bunch of technologies. Why play with just one computer when you can play with half a dozen! ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@vikash agrawal About GUI I discussed it at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!starred/comp.lang.python/M-Dy2pyWRfM and I am thinking about using PySide 1.2 for clients of chat system. I think I'll need downloadable clients if I want to make something like google talk. Then I'll need to implement server side programming also. I think google app engine would be suitable for this as it is going to be always online. In the above scenario I wanted to know whether the database can be stored on google app engine itself? Is it possible? Having a chat system with server online and DB offline isn't going to be good. Should I consider heroku for this or can it be done using google app engine? Is it viable to have the DB on google appengine itself? About using web frameworks, in the above scenario when there isn't an online website for chat would I need web frameworks? I am confused about this. Can server side programming be done in Python or by using a web framework only? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @vikash agrawal About GUI I discussed it at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!starred/comp.lang.python/M-Dy2pyWRfM and I am thinking about using PySide 1.2 for clients of chat system. I think I'll need downloadable clients if I want to make something like google talk. Then I'll need to implement server side programming also. I think google app engine would be suitable for this as it is going to be always online. Hrm. Rather than pointing people to Google Groups, which a number here (and not unreasonably) detest, you may want to link to the python-list archive: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-July/thread.html#651359 About using web frameworks, in the above scenario when there isn't an online website for chat would I need web frameworks? I am confused about this. Can server side programming be done in Python or by using a web framework only? You can certainly do your server-side programming directly in Python; in fact, I recommend it for this task. There's no reason to use HTTP, much less a web framework (which usually consists of a structured way to build HTML pages, plus a bunch of routing and stuff, none of which you need). All you need is a simple structure for separating one message from another. I would recommend either going MUD/TELNET style and ending each message with a newline, or prefixing each message with its length in octets. Both ways work very nicely; newline-termination allows you to use a MUD client for debugging, which I find very convenient (full disclosure: I am the author of multiple MUD clients, including one that's zero-dollar and another that's free). ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@Chris Angelico Thanks. That cleared many doubts and your suggestions would definitely be useful. I am asking the next paragraph because you said about Python 3 helping with things. I am not looking for a debate or anything just a opinion. I learnt Python myself and everyone told me that Python 2 is status quo so I learned Python 2 and have been working with it. I am just 1.5 months in Python programming so should I consider switching to Python 3 if it helps with new things or should I stick with Python 2 to get a taste of what is currently out there? About Pike, thanks for the heads up. But for now I'll use Python. I wanted to learn Python through this project. I'll leave Pike for later. Maybe Phase 1.5. Aren't you guys posting in google groups? I thought you were because I can see your posts here. How do I post in python mailing list and see its archives instead of posting on google groups? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 2013.07.18 01:36, Aseem Bansal wrote: I learnt Python myself and everyone told me that Python 2 is status quo so I learned Python 2 and have been working with it. I am just 1.5 months in Python programming so should I consider switching to Python 3 if it helps with new things or should I stick with Python 2 to get a taste of what is currently out there? Python 2 is what some people are stuck with because their projects depend on huge libraries that have not yet made all their code compatible with Python 3 (or on libraries that are not actively maintained or are being replaced by something else). All new code and new Python users should be using Python 3 unless there is a pressing need for a library that requires Python 2. Most popular libraries at this point have either been made compatible or have been replaced by something that supports Python 3. Python 3 is no longer the shiny new thing to look at in the future - 3.0 was released in December 2008. -- CPython 3.3.2 | Windows NT 6.2.9200 / FreeBSD 9.1 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @Chris Angelico Thanks. That cleared many doubts and your suggestions would definitely be useful. I am asking the next paragraph because you said about Python 3 helping with things. I am not looking for a debate or anything just a opinion. I learnt Python myself and everyone told me that Python 2 is status quo so I learned Python 2 and have been working with it. I am just 1.5 months in Python programming so should I consider switching to Python 3 if it helps with new things or should I stick with Python 2 to get a taste of what is currently out there? Python 3 is now the current Python. There'll be no more development on Python 2 (bugfixes/security only, and even that won't be forever), so I strongly recommend going to Python 3. You're writing new code, so there's really no reason to use Python 2. All the core libraries you'll be needing (socket, mainly) are available for Py3, and as I mentioned earlier, Unicode handling is far superior (especially as of 3.3). About Pike, thanks for the heads up. But for now I'll use Python. I wanted to learn Python through this project. I'll leave Pike for later. Maybe Phase 1.5. Yep. My main point there is: Don't be too stuck on any one tool, learn 'em all. Learn Python now, you may find that you want to use Pike later. Build your system so you can switch one thing out for another. Aren't you guys posting in google groups? I thought you were because I can see your posts here. How do I post in python mailing list and see its archives instead of posting on google groups? Google Groups is one way (and one of the worse ways) of accessing comp.lang.python, which is cross-mirrored with the mailing list python-list@python.org - the easiest way is to simply subscribe to either the newsgroup or the mailing list, using a newsreader or mail client. As you see, I'm posting from gmail; there are a couple of issues with using gmail here (it doesn't have a Reply List option, for instance), but it's orders of magnitude less annoying than Google Groups. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@Andrew Berg @Chris Angelico Is there a way to have both Python 2 and 3 installed on my computer till I can update the little codebase that I have built? Can I make different commands for invoking python 2 and Python 3? I am using Windows 7 and use Windows Powershell as an alternative to the linux terminal. Any suggestions about how to do that instead of breaking all my code at once? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @Andrew Berg @Chris Angelico Is there a way to have both Python 2 and 3 installed on my computer till I can update the little codebase that I have built? Can I make different commands for invoking python 2 and Python 3? I am using Windows 7 and use Windows Powershell as an alternative to the linux terminal. Any suggestions about how to do that instead of breaking all my code at once? Yep! And in fact, Python 3.3 includes a launcher that makes it fairly easy. Just install another version, and then check this out: http://docs.python.org/3.3/using/windows.html#launcher You can use a Unix-style shebang to specify which Python version some script depends on. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@ChrisA Thanks. That's great. That solved the whole thing easily. I'll install Python 3 and start updating today. About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? I have never read a newsgroup leave alone participated in one. I am used to forums like stackoverflow. Any way to read it and reply by one interface? If not, give any suggestion. I'll use that. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @ChrisA Thanks. That's great. That solved the whole thing easily. I'll install Python 3 and start updating today. About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? I have never read a newsgroup leave alone participated in one. I am used to forums like stackoverflow. Any way to read it and reply by one interface? If not, give any suggestion. I'll use that. Easiest, if you're not familiar with newsgroups, is to subscribe to the mailing list. Subscribe here: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Then you get an email every time anyone posts. Threading should be handled by any decent mail client, and you just hit Reply-List (or Reply and change the address to python-list@python.org) to post a follow-up. It's a good system. Works for myriad lists. The software that runs this one (Mailman) is even written in Python, so you're using Python to discuss Python :) ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@ChrisA I subscribed to it. How do I reply to a message that has already been posted before my subscription? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @ChrisA I subscribed to it. How do I reply to a message that has already been posted before my subscription? Not easily, far as I know. But you now have this reply, and you can always just post something with the right subject line and hope that people pick up that it's part of the same discussion topic. Transition isn't the cleanest but once it's done it's done. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
I tried replying to your message by mail. I used the reply button and send it to python-list@python.org? Or do I need to use pytho...@python.org as you wrote in your post? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I tried replying to your message by mail. I used the reply button and send it to python-list@python.org? Or do I need to use pytho...@python.org as you wrote in your post? You replied correctly. The ellipsis was presumably an anti-spam feature. Send to python-list at python dot org to post. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
Ok I'll mail by e-mail now. Hope that it reaches the place correctly.-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 2013-07-18, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: @vikash agrawal About GUI I discussed it at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!starred/comp.lang.python/M-Dy2pyWRfM and I am thinking about using PySide 1.2 for clients of chat system. I think I'll need downloadable clients if I want to make something like google talk. Then I'll need to implement server side programming also. I think google app engine would be suitable for this as it is going to be always online. Hrm. Rather than pointing people to Google Groups, which a number here (and not unreasonably) detest, you may want to link to the python-list archive: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-July/thread.html#651359 While that's the canonical archive, the UI is awful. I find gmane's web UI to be _far_ more friendly and useful than the pipermail archive UI: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/737271/ 1) The search facility sort-of works (though using google with site:gmane.org:/gmane.comp.python usually works better). 2) You can post from the gmane web UI. 3) It offers both a threaded and a flat, blog-like version. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! We just joined the at civil hair patrol! gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 7/18/2013 3:29 AM, Aseem Bansal wrote: About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? To read this list as a newsgroup use news.gmane.org. The difference between the mailing list interface and newsgroup interface is that the latter automatically segregates messages by group and only downloads the messages you want to read. Gmane is also a better way to search the archive. I have never read a newsgroup leave alone participated in one. I am used to forums like stackoverflow. Any way to read it and reply by one interface? If not, give any suggestion. I'll use that. I use Thunderbird. There is almost no difference between replying to emails and replying to newsgroup posts. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
18.07.13 20:04, Terry Reedy написав(ла): On 7/18/2013 3:29 AM, Aseem Bansal wrote: About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? To read this list as a newsgroup use news.gmane.org. The difference between the mailing list interface and newsgroup interface is that the latter automatically segregates messages by group and only downloads the messages you want to read. Gmane is also a better way to search the archive. Also newsgroup interface allow you reply to messages that have already been posted before your subscription. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 2013-07-18, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: 18.07.13 20:04, Terry Reedy ??(): On 7/18/2013 3:29 AM, Aseem Bansal wrote: About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? To read this list as a newsgroup use news.gmane.org. The difference between the mailing list interface and newsgroup interface is that the latter automatically segregates messages by group and only downloads the messages you want to read. Gmane is also a better way to search the archive. Also newsgroup interface allow you reply to messages that have already been posted before your subscription. Indeed. I read about 20 mailing lists by pointing a newsreader (I use slrn) at gmane.org. I find it to take far less effort than actualling having all of those messages actually sent to me. For _some_ of the gmane groups/lists you will actually have to subscribe to the mailing list in question if you want to be allowed to post messages -- but in your account settings for that mailing list server you can turn off delivery, so that it doesn't actually send you any of the postings. I really can't recommend gmane.org highly enough. [I don't actually read the python list using gmane.org, since I've read it from a Usenet news server via the group comp.lang.python since long before I discovered gmane.org.] -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Not SENSUOUS ... only at FROLICSOME ... and in gmail.comneed of DENTAL WORK ... in PAIN!!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 2013-07-18, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: On 2013-07-18, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: 18.07.13 20:04, Terry Reedy ??(): On 7/18/2013 3:29 AM, Aseem Bansal wrote: About reading comp.lang.python can you suggest how to read it and reply? To read this list as a newsgroup use news.gmane.org. The difference between the mailing list interface and newsgroup interface is that the latter automatically segregates messages by group and only downloads the messages you want to read. Gmane is also a better way to search the archive. Also newsgroup interface allow you reply to messages that have already been posted before your subscription. Indeed. I read about 20 mailing lists by pointing a newsreader (I use slrn) at gmane.org. I find it to take far less effort than actualling having all of those messages actually sent to me. For _some_ of the gmane groups/lists you will actually have to subscribe to the mailing list in question if you want to be allowed to post messages -- but in your account settings for that mailing list server you can turn off delivery, so that it doesn't actually send you any of the postings. I really can't recommend gmane.org highly enough. [I don't actually read the python list using gmane.org, since I've read it from a Usenet news server via the group comp.lang.python since long before I discovered gmane.org.] Huh - I (foolishly) didn't realize gmane actually had NNTP, I've always used it to search mailing lists. If the list dumped to usenet (much like c.l.python) I'd post through sunsite.dk, which is a very nice usenet provider. But that still meant several annoying mailing list subscriptions. ... man, I'm really glad I read your post :-) -- -owen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 07/17/2013 11:39 PM, Eric S. Johansson wrote: Not discourage you but this is a been there, done that kind of project. You could learn more from reading somebody else is code. What hasn't been done, and this would be very cool, is a chat program that works peer-to-peer with no central server. To do this, you would probably need to know about distributed hash tables and methods of piercing address translation firewalls (think UDP). University CS curricula across the world would disagree with your assessment of the usefulness of been there, done that. Indeed that's how you learn by doing simple things that have been done many times before, and discovering the magic of programming and software design. My uni's CS undergrad degree consists of dozens of contrived projects that have been done before. Web crawlers, compilers, expert systems, chat systems, word counters, etc. And that's the same way with all fields of endeavor. Indeed it'd be silly to tell an enthused hobby builder that building a shed is pointless as it's been done before. The shed itself, which would arguably be useful, is beside the point. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 07/18/2013 12:19 PM, Owen Marshall wrote: Huh - I (foolishly) didn't realize gmane actually had NNTP, I've always used it to search mailing lists. If the list dumped to usenet (much like c.l.python) I'd post through sunsite.dk, which is a very nice usenet provider. But that still meant several annoying mailing list subscriptions. ... man, I'm really glad I read your post :-) I'm a bit confused. This list *is* c.l.python (I happen to read via e-mail through the mailing list). So you can reach it from sunsite.dk can you not? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On 2013-07-18, Michael Torrie torr...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/18/2013 12:19 PM, Owen Marshall wrote: Huh - I (foolishly) didn't realize gmane actually had NNTP, I've always used it to search mailing lists. If the list dumped to usenet (much like c.l.python) I'd post through sunsite.dk, which is a very nice usenet provider. But that still meant several annoying mailing list subscriptions. ... man, I'm really glad I read your post :-) I'm a bit confused. This list *is* c.l.python (I happen to read via e-mail through the mailing list). So you can reach it from sunsite.dk can you not? Doesn't surprise me, I was confusing ;-) What I was saying was that my workflow used to be this: For maliing lists that dump to a newsgroup (c.l.python) I'd post to the group via usenet (sunsite.dk) For mailing lists that _do not_ have a direct newsgroup gateway (flask, etc.) I'd have to subscribe and read them in my mail client. So I used to think gmane was just a way of reading a bunch of mailing lists. *But now* I know it is much more - it's an NNTP == mail gateway that also has a web viewer. Now I can point my slrn to news.gmane.net and see the flask mailing list, ruby-talk, ... -- which I much prefer to using email. Again, perfectly obvious stuff had I actually _read_ the gmane FAQ. But who has time for that ;-) -- -owen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. I wanted to know what will I need? I think that would require me these 1 learn network/socket programming 2 find a free server to host my chat server 3 GUI development for clients -I wanted to know whether these are all that I would need or are there more things? -Will I need to learn a web framework like Django? -Will I need to learn something for database management like sql for handling people's account names and password? Is google appengine good for hosting the website or should I look up at django hosting websites? Any other advice for me(a novice programmer)? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
Hi Aseem, First of all great thought and all the best for the learning! On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. I wanted to know what will I need? I think that would require me these 1 learn network/socket programming Yes! sockets are the heart and soul of chat sys :-) 2 find a free server to host my chat server You can use many, but I would suggest heroku for your free apps. 3 GUI development for clients There are many python libraries Tkinter, PyQt, PyGtk, wxPython through which you have GUI! -I wanted to know whether these are all that I would need or are there more things? I think with above you are good to go! -Will I need to learn a web framework like Django? That would really depend upon the type of chat application you are relying upon. For a command line utility I think you can skip it, but if you wish to have good-looking web version then yes, give Django a shot! But yes do see other frameworks as well, just for finding out, learning and knowing more :) -Will I need to learn something for database management like sql for handling people's account names and password? Yes, it will be good decision to use DB to store names and chat histories (with timestamp) and have your logs ready Is google appengine good for hosting the website or should I look up at django hosting websites? Its good too :) Any other advice for me(a novice programmer)? Make mistakes and fail early! Python is awesome! But do try to learn the best practices. For eg, reverse a string string[::-1] etc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Regards ~Vikash -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 00:36:17 -0400, Aseem Bansal asmbans...@gmail.com wrote: I wanted to do a little project for learning Python. I thought a chat system will be good as it isn't something that I have ever done. I wanted to know what will I need? I think that would require me these 1 learn network/socket programming 2 find a free server to host my chat server 3 GUI development for clients Not discourage you but this is a been there, done that kind of project. You could learn more from reading somebody else is code. What hasn't been done, and this would be very cool, is a chat program that works peer-to-peer with no central server. To do this, you would probably need to know about distributed hash tables and methods of piercing address translation firewalls (think UDP). First however, I would suggest taking a look at https://jitsi.org/ and see how they do things. You can learn a lot from these people. They are very smart. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: What does it take to implement a chat system in Python (Not asking for code just advice before I start my little project)
@Eric S. Johansson I am a novice who hasn't done any big project in programming. I haven't done anything I can even call a moderate project. I haven't touched web frameworks ever. I have little or no knowledge of network/socket programming. I have never used databases before. I understand that there are a lot of chat systems out there but I haven't done anything like that before. This is for learning purposes. Reading someone else's code is good but doing it yourself is better. Thanks for the suggestion but for now I'll stick to this idea. I am excited about this and I would need that for a hobby project. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
