Re: beta.python.org content
Kay Schluehr wrote: The new Python site is incredibly boring. Sorry to say this. The old site is/was amateurish but engaged. Now after ~15 years of existence Pythons looks like it wants to be popular among directors of a german job centers. It aims to do everything right but what could be said worse? The text on the beginners page tries to argue with the potential users in a pointless monologue. Who wants to read this text? Who wants to be convinced that Python is *not* slow? Do you stop beating your wife? And where is fun, irony and black humour? Why Python? Python in industry - I see chimneys of 19th century factories, proletarian heroes as well as futuristic hybrid robots superseeding humanity. Python community - a dutch grand-family photo from the beginning of the 20ths century - some ( or all? ) of the members are accidentally looking like Guido, Python in science - snake-like RNA strand. It need not be like this but I wonder about the total lack of personality. +1 This doesn't show the vibrance of to me somewhere like Europython. It doesn't show Oh, and this is incredibly, cool, fun and useful. That to me is what both http://www.turbogears.org/ and http://www.rubyonrails.org/ do show. RonR has 4 very simple engaging points: * Get Excited * Get Started * Get Better * Get Involved Blindly copying something else is rarely IMO a good idea, but having NO personality simply turns people off. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I'd suspect starting with the visual humour style in python might be a good place to start... Put another way, I'd expect *python.com* [1] to look like the new site, and *python.org* to look like something that, well, represents some of the utter (very cool, very diverse) madness of the people involved with python. [1] NB: I **really** wouldn't go to python.com, I REALLY wasn't expecting that (REALLY) Michael. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/ British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP Totally my opinion and no-one elses and expecially not the views of the BBC (!) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On 2/2/06, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [1] NB: I **really** wouldn't go to python.com, I REALLY wasn'texpecting that (REALLY) . I wouldn't even p y t h o n . c o m -- gmail keeps throwing these into the spam bucket .-- American Dream Documentshttp://www.geocities.com/amerdreamdocs/home/ (real opportunity starts with real documentation) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27 Jan 2006 08:08:58 -0800, Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite brilliant. http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way! It was Michael Bernstein who designed it, I believe, and agree that it's a great logo for PyCon. Correct. Also known as my cousin. He did the logo for my me and my primary: http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/ Anyone wanting the services of a good graphic/web designer should definitely consider him! /blatant plug -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
robin wrote: Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? There are several things wrong with the interface. First, I count seven ways of formatting a link. This is approximately five too many and can be fixed as follows. For Beginners is italicised, supposedly to indicate it is the page we are currently on. This overloads the normal expected meaning of italics with something unexpected. And what is the point of a link to the current page? This should be plain text. About is a top-level menu which has been expanded; to indicate this there is a yellow bar. This is not necessary since the viewer can see the menu is expanded. :-) The menu items underneath an expanded heading should be in the same format, but offset. Same format says menu; offset says child. The last menu items are in different formats yet again (typeface and size). I see no reason for this. Once this has been done there will be but two different ways of formatting a link: a menu and a link in the page body. In terms of page space, the horizontal bar at the top seems wasted. Perhaps the vertical bar is all that is needed? The other elements could be relocated. The menu is structured with a list and formatted with CSS. Good! Given that there is already a hierarchical organisation of the content voa the collapsing menu bar, I do not think that another representation of this is required above the main page text. I would ditch the link trail. Overall, the look is very safe corporate. I myself would have gone for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths. Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I now? I'm sure Tim Parkin will be happy to discuss this with you, as he is also involved on the design side. I was mostly looking for content criticism, but anything that helps is a Good Thing. P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond little green cartoon snakes eventually. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
robin wrote: Overall, the look is very safe corporate. I myself would have gone for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths. Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I now? you can either try joining the beta.python.org cathedral (good luck), or drop by the skunkworks (http://effbot.org/zone/pydotorg.htm) and help me whip together some nice templates. (if I could pick a style, I'd go for something that has some visual connection to the existing site style, but reworked for 2006 and today's Python universe). /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? There are several things wrong with the interface. First, I count seven ways of formatting a link. This is approximately five too many and can be fixed as follows. For Beginners is italicised, supposedly to indicate it is the page we are currently on. This overloads the normal expected meaning of italics with something unexpected. And what is the point of a link to the current page? This should be plain text. About is a top-level menu which has been expanded; to indicate this there is a yellow bar. This is not necessary since the viewer can see the menu is expanded. :-) The menu items underneath an expanded heading should be in the same format, but offset. Same format says menu; offset says child. The last menu items are in different formats yet again (typeface and size). I see no reason for this. Once this has been done there will be but two different ways of formatting a link: a menu and a link in the page body. In terms of page space, the horizontal bar at the top seems wasted. Perhaps the vertical bar is all that is needed? The other elements could be relocated. The menu is structured with a list and formatted with CSS. Good! Given that there is already a hierarchical organisation of the content voa the collapsing menu bar, I do not think that another representation of this is required above the main page text. I would ditch the link trail. Overall, the look is very safe corporate. I myself would have gone for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths. Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I now? P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond little green cartoon snakes eventually. - robin noisetheatre.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:47:20 -0800 Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry Hancock wrote: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:44:19 -0800 Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paragraph 3 in Why Python: and later in that paragraph, I'd change: ... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions to: ... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions And while we're at it, let's say Python is a language for programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic computers? The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is responding to its topic sentence: You just touched my funny bone there. There's nothing wrong with the edit, really. ;-) For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the answer is Yes, my aunt has one. Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a film student. What movie? Take the Money and Run (1969) Directed by Woody Allen http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065063/ Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the straight man asking Allen's character about the obviously esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone like him is obviously not qualified. His statement that his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her back yard. *Today*, the funny one is the interviewer, and Allen's line that his Aunt has one is perfectly reasonable. Even a mere 10 years later in 1979, this was true. I always found that ironic. -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the straight man asking Allen's character about the obviously esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone like him is obviously not qualified. His statement that his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her back yard. I never saw that movie but there's a scene sort of like it in Blast from the Past. Basically a guy with a 1960's science education (because he grew up in an underground bomb shelter) emerges into the world of the 90's. When he's told that his friend has a personal computer, his reaction is His own computer?! You mean, inside the house?! etc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? regards Steve Hi, I'm an actualy Python beginner, decided recently to play with Python. I'm a user, not a professional programmer or developer of any sort, so I guess the beginner's page would be aimed at folks like me. It looks fine, degrades pretty well in Dillo. But.it needs more Beginners links and info. The Why Python seems a bit out of place, more akin to something that would be on the beta home, which looks a little corporate brochure site to me. It also seems a little bland as a beginner site goes. A little bit of fun and friendliness in the spirit of Python for Everyone might be something to add. That's what brought me to Python. The idea that Python was not just for people like ESR who've been programmers for decades, or for corporate types designing applications containing a new paradigm of competencies in objective oriented programming, but for high school students, hobbyist programmers and even those who've never written a line of code in their lives. It has been suggested that a Google-like hierarchy might be useful and I agree, though I don't know how that might work in practice. You could have a bland brochure site with the proper buzzwords for the corporates, another for the devs with late breaking patches, news, RSS feeds, whatever they need. and one for Education and/or beginners, with perhaps a colorful friendly look. (but perhaps keeping the same basic overall base look) I actually like the look of the current http://www.python.org It packs a lot of useful links in one page and it seems friendly Which probably sounds silly to describe an emotional reaction or feel to a site. Admittedly it doesn't look corporate or slick professional but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I agree with others about the new logo. It lacks a certain, pardon the expression, je ne sais quoi. (one of the things that got me interested in Linux was seeing that penguin associated with the word Linux and making me curious about what that Linux thing was all about) But it would make a good logo for a enterprise.python.org business.python.org So perhaps different logos for different purposes? A cartoony friendly python in front of a blackboard for education (similar to the Pygame python) A python reading a book at the base of a larch for a listing of books That sort of thing. The python.org site's been useful to me, pointing me to interesting software, documentation and whatnot. Though I didn't know about IDLE until I saw it mentioned in a post on Slashdot in a story asking for recommendations for Python IDE's. I am very new to Python. CronoCloud (Ron Rogers Jr.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
I'd like to see the use of Python grow as dramatically as it deserves to. As I see it, there are at least three major categories of web visitors that we need to cater to: - Existing python users - Potential python users - Managers The current site's front page seems to be aimed mainly at existing python developers. I agree with Magnus about not specifying who should be interested in a particular page. The most effective web marketing of an Open Source development tool recently has probably been http://www.rubyonrails.org/. I think the link on the front page to a very slick coding video demonstration helped a lot there. Do we have anything like that for Python yet? TurboGears (http://www.turbogears.org/index.html) seems to have captured the same spirit of exciting marketing hype. They are both very cool tools as well, but so is Python. Can we adapt any of the techniques they use for the Python website? Hope that helps, Bruce -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Terry Hancock wrote: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:44:19 -0800 Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paragraph 3 in Why Python: and later in that paragraph, I'd change: ... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions to: ... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions And while we're at it, let's say Python is a language for programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic computers? The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is responding to its topic sentence: Some people (s)uppose because Python is an interpreted language that it is slow and unsuitable for scientific and engineering tasks. ... Python's easy extensibility has allowed ... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions. I am simply saying that compact numerical solutions doesn't really address the question of whether they are too slow. For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the answer is Yes, my aunt has one. Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a film student. What movie? --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:57:05 + Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? Better than it did. ;-) No, it looks great. I think you're hitting approximately the right tone here. That first paragraph may be a bit too curt about new to programming folks (Actually, I think you were mentally pausing on the link, which doesn't happen on reading because of the contrast problem -- when I consciously make this pause, it sounds better). But ... 1) Contrast between text and links is too low (it's hard to see the in-text links). 2) Partly because of #1, it would be nicer to have some of these links in a nice bullet-list. It would also break up the paragraph text a bit, which would (ironically) increase the chances of it being read. You could probably go either way -- leave the color alone and introduce some bullets, or increase the color contrast so that the links stand out. 3) Remember that many people will be *scanning* this page, not reading it. What will they see as their eyes scan down the page during the first 1/2 second? Enough to make them spend 10 seconds taking a more thorough look? Will that make them spend the 3-5 minutes actually reading what you wrote? Remember that a beginner is likely shopping for a programming language, and wants to know: 1) What general class of language is Python? 2) What distinguishes it from other languages? (Obvious comparables: C, Perl, Ruby, Java, Visual Basic. Less obvious, but useful: Lisp, Haskell). 3) How long is it going to take me to learn it? 4) How much help can I get and what resources are available to learn it? (Python is an open-source native, which to some people continues to mean underdocumented and undersupported, even if *we* know that's a myth (I now believe the opposite, but I'm in the choir ;-) )). 5) Will I be able to do anything after learning it, that I can't do now? You're still sort of advertising on the beginners site, but it needs to be more of a technical advertisement than the buzzword sell on the front page. This is the page someone reads who is imagining that *they* are going to have to learn this language (not pay someone else to). Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Michael Tobis wrote: I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would be a major improvement except for the logo. [Much reasoning about logos, Sun, Microsoft Office...] With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't turn the p into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done somewhere before. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Paddy wrote: I find it much better than the current site, thank you! Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight niggles. What do you think about the following changes? About Python Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that set it apart. * remarkable power with very clear syntax * fully modular, with modules in individual files, or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules for larger projects. * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a functional style of programming too. * exception-based error handling * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use. * interfaces to many system calls and libraries * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets) * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface I decided to go with: Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that set it apart. * remarkable power with very clear syntax * full modularity, supporting hierarchical packages * intuitive object orientation * natural expression of procedural code * exception-based error handling * very high level dynamic data types * interfaces to many system calls and libraries * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets) * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface Thanks for your remarks. All readers please note we are looking for editors for this stuff! regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote:
Steve Holden wrote:
How does
http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
look?
Steve,
This is a great writeup. Here are my comments:
1. Fortunately Python is something that an experienced programmer of
another language (be it ...
Add C# and/or Java to this list. The current list might scare away a lot
of people ;).
I just went with whatever it may be as even less exclusive :-)
2. also available as the python-list mailing list
Add or a google group (link).
Gimme the link!
3. You may want to find out which text editors* are tailored to make
Python editing* easy
Change at two places:
You may want to find out which text editors or IDEs
(http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments) are
tailored to make Python programming easy.
I added IDE's as a separate category - great idea!
4. Typo: look for 'welcomne'
Fixed, thanks.
5. There seems to be a great overlap between this and what could go in
the 'For Developers' section. Maybe we need only one section ('For
Developers'?) In general many pages with overlapping content confuse me
(and probably others)
Don't agree. Repetition is actually better that presenting each piece of
information precisely once for many purposes.
Anyway, I am also working on the developer section in parallel to
improve the focus of that content.
6. The 'About' page should have an additional section:
Python is Popular
Thousands of developers use Python to make themselves more productive in
application domains across the board - enterprise computing, web
development, game development, scientific and numerical computing,
embedded and mobile development and more. See `Success Stories` and
`Quotes` to discover more.
Thanks,
Shalabh
Excellent, thanks!
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Michael Tobis wrote: I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would be a major improvement except for the logo. big snip So, are you saying you don't like the new logo? I'm with you. I don't like it either. It looks like a diagram out of the well known Anguine Kama Sutra. The new site, however is very nice. Top marks for that. -- Dale Strickland-Clark Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that set it apart. James Stroud wrote: Maybe: Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart. Definitely better. The first text seems to define Python through comparision, and that doesn't show a lot of confidence for mature language like Python. (It's one thing if it was much younger than the others, but it's somewhere in the middle of that group.) Agile might be a better buzz-word than object oriented though. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
The new Python site is incredibly boring. Sorry to say this. The old site is/was amateurish but engaged. Now after ~15 years of existence Pythons looks like it wants to be popular among directors of a german job centers. It aims to do everything right but what could be said worse? The text on the beginners page tries to argue with the potential users in a pointless monologue. Who wants to read this text? Who wants to be convinced that Python is *not* slow? Do you stop beating your wife? And where is fun, irony and black humour? Why Python? Python in industry - I see chimneys of 19th century factories, proletarian heroes as well as futuristic hybrid robots superseeding humanity. Python community - a dutch grand-family photo from the beginning of the 20ths century - some ( or all? ) of the members are accidentally looking like Guido, Python in science - snake-like RNA strand. It need not be like this but I wonder about the total lack of personality. Kay -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:33:06 +, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ My suggestion would be too much text. IMHO, people do not read paragraphs of material on the web. The basic structure shouldn't be the paragraph, but the bullet point. e.g. Why Python? Agile programming language link to 'About Python' Active community link to 'Community': conferences link, newsgroups link, mailing lists link Open source link Questions? See the FAQ. link I learned this at the MEMS Exchange, where we began by writing an explanatory paragraph explaining how to do something. Users would ignore it completely, and call us on the phone asking how do I do X? What's a Y? even though X and Y were explained right in that text. Once it was rewritten into note form, the phone calls became much less frequent. The wiki beginner's guide tries to be similarly laconic, though it doesn't always succeed. It's irritating, I know; the paragraphs aren't unduly long, and the style is readable, not boring or academic. It would make a good article, press release, or white paper. But web users just don't care about blocks of text. (I keep meaning to fix http://www.python.org/2.4.2/, which is just awful in this respect.) --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:28:50 -0800 in comp.lang.python, James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rocco Moretti wrote: (Not that I like the logo, mind you...) Does anyone? There has to be a better logo! I thought the previous requirement as established by the BDFL was no snakes. These are snakes, and they have no personality to boot. I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO. Though maybe not as funny... Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? I think it's a well written text, but it looks more like an introductionary chapter in a book about Python than a text for a web site. A book looks the same for all its readers, and it's basically sequential. Books also have readers who've made much more of a commitment to read. They won't click somewhere else just because it was dull for ten seconds- It's clear that this web site is intended to present different information to different kinds of people, but I don't understand for whom *this* text is written... In fact I don't quite understand the About section at all, with the subsections For Beginners, For Developers and For Business etc. What does About mean? Is is about this web site or is it about the Python programming language. About Python it seems. Isn't the whole site about Python? If about really means introduction, why doesn't it say Introduction. Since the whole section seems to be geared towards people who don't know a lot about Python already, and the for beginners page seems to fend off people who are completely new to programming with a link, it seems to me that it's either for programmers or for some kind of decision makers or reporters who'd prefer the business page anyway. If we need some general introduction for all, it should be much shorter, more like http://python.org/doc/Summary.html Concerning the next entries in the About section (not what you asked about, so this is just a bonus;): I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms! So, describe the content of each page instead of saying If you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page. It's great to take different actors into account, but that should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store. The sign on the outside says complaints or something like that. The stupid customers sign has to be on the inside. That's not what you present to the stupid customers... Perhaps the About Section should look like this? Introduction -What is Python [short summary] -Getting started[a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc] -Why Python?[a.k.a. for business] -Success Stories -Quotes I don't quite understand why there is a PSF entry here. If I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about PSF, I would not look under the introductory About menu, but rather under community. If I'm new to Python, I'd probably ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and make a link from Why Python in a sentence describing how using Python avoids vendor lock in. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Dave Hansen wrote: I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO. Though maybe not as funny... Why not just take the Parrot logo and rotate it by 90 degrees? ;-) http://www.parrotcode.org/ Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:33:06 + in comp.lang.python, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote: [...] 2. also available as the python-list mailing list Add or a google group (link). It's not a Google Group, it's a Usenet newsgroup. Google merely provides a lousy but accessible interface to Usenet. Gimme the link! http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Paul Boddie wrote: With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't turn the p into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done somewhere before. You're probably thinking of PyPy: http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/news.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite brilliant. Solves many problems: dynamic, doesn't just sit there, looks like it is moving toward a goal direction of motion surprising and memorable refers to software in the minds of experienced coders takes advantage of the snake association without being creepy reassuring to corporate types but fun and T-shirt friendly can be permuted in lots of amusing ways, optionally as output from code first impression is cheerful, second impression is cleverness http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way! mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? regards Steve I think the content is good, but I would suggest putting some bullet points with links at the top. IMO top part of the beginner page should somehow indicate that tutorial and FAQ is accessible from this page. The page looks a bit dull - there is nothing bright-colored there. Have a look at the www.holdenweb.com in your sig to see what I mean. The small lines of red and yellow on the upper right and the orange picture on used there makes the page a lot more alive. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Magnus Lycka wrote: ... I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms! Unfortunately most people do.. That's why there are beginners books, business books, advanced books etc.. So, describe the content of each page instead of saying If you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page. It's great to take different actors into account, but that should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store. The sign on the outside says complaints or something like that. The stupid customers sign has to be on the inside. That's not what you present to the stupid customers... Perhaps the About Section should look like this? Introduction -What is Python [short summary] -Getting started[a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc] -Why Python?[a.k.a. for business] -Success Stories -Quotes Looks good.. I'll have a bit more of a think about it, perhaps the getting started and why python pages could have sections within them (headers) for if you are new to programming and Should I use python in my business. I don't quite understand why there is a PSF entry here. If I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about PSF, I would not look under the introductory About menu, but rather under community. If I'm new to Python, I'd probably ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and make a link from Why Python in a sentence describing how using Python avoids vendor lock in. OK.. I'll put it up as a ticket and try to change it around at the weekend. Thanks for the feedback. Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:30:20 -0600 Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Boddie wrote: With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't turn the p into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done somewhere before. You're probably thinking of PyPy: Huh. Seems like the PyPy logo should surely be an Ouroboros! -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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On 27 Jan 2006 08:08:58 -0800, Michael Tobis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite brilliant. ... http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way! It was Michael Bernstein who designed it, I believe, and agree that it's a great logo for PyCon. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden wrote: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? regards Steve I agree that links need better contrast (if you are taking over the page coloring; you might consider avoiding that as well as font spec). In the initial paragraph: Welcome! Are you completely new to programming? If _not_ I'd add something in the words to indicate what to do if you _are_ completely new to programming. Perhaps simply this: Welcome! Are you completely new to programming? If so, click on _this_link_. If _not_ Paragraph 3 in Why Python: Some people uppose because Python ... I'd prefer the word suppose. and later in that paragraph, I'd change: ... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions to: ... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:44:19 -0800 Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paragraph 3 in Why Python: Some people uppose because Python ... I'd prefer the word suppose. and later in that paragraph, I'd change: ... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions to: ... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions And while we're at it, let's say Python is a language for programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic computers? :-D For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the answer is Yes, my aunt has one. Ironically, this is now funny for exactly the opposite reason from the way it was intended! -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote: 2. also available as the python-list mailing list Add or a google group (link). Steve Holden wrote: Gimme the link! http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python You could even use the text: also available as the python-list mailing list via a `web-based interface` -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Magnus Lycka wrote: Perhaps the About Section should look like this? Introduction -What is Python [short summary] -Getting started[a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc] -Why Python?[a.k.a. for business] -Success Stories -Quotes +1 I don't quite understand why there is a PSF entry here. If I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about PSF, I would not look under the introductory About menu, but rather under community. If I'm new to Python, I'd probably ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and make a link from Why Python in a sentence describing how using Python avoids vendor lock in. +1 -- Shalabh -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
beta.python.org content
How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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I am not a design professional but since you didn't ask for professionals but for beginners ;-) ... - At the left hand side you used abbreviations (like PSF). Using the full name says more about the option. - I don't like capitals alot either (as used in the menu). - The corporate look of the site might be something I need getting used too. - And I think the top part needs some nice images. Just python and logo is taking up too much space for what it shows. But it's a good change compared to the old site. That one was way too ascii ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden schrieb: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? I like it :) Some minor points: - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note that there are no religious motives in this remark :) - I really liked the different looking Pythons in the logo corner. Couldn't they find asylum somewhere in the new site? - I would prefer stronger, less flimsy colours. But apart from these superficial points: well done :) Peter Maas, Aachen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Steve Holden schreef: How does http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/ look? I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without the font-size: 75%. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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I find it much better than the current site, thank you! Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight niggles. What do you think about the following changes? About Python Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that set it apart. * remarkable power with very clear syntax * fully modular, with modules in individual files, or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules for larger projects. * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a functional style of programming too. * exception-based error handling * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use. * interfaces to many system calls and libraries * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets) * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface - Paddy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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- The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note that there are no religious motives in this remark :) -1. Then what are the motives? A rotated cross looks a lot less clean. Take a look at the crosses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Cross - the only ones it vaguely resembles are the Greek cross and the Red Cross. It certainly doesn't resemble the Christian (longer upright section) cross, and as the article says, the cross is one of the oldest symbols in existance. =Tony.Meyer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Tony Meyer schrieb: - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note that there are no religious motives in this remark :) -1. Then what are the motives? I don't like the shape. Snakes and right angles - it's a contradiction. This is just my personal taste. Peter Maas, Aachen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Peter Maas wrote: - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note that there are no religious motives in this remark :) It looks like a plus sign to me. Do you also advocate renaming C++ to Cxx or C (circular shape) (circular shape)? Also note that if you made it more of a circular shape, it might resemble a Ying-Yang symbol, and we would offend the anti-Daoist programmers. ;-) (Not that I like the logo, mind you. I just think that looking like a cross is a poor reason to bash it.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Peter Maas wrote: Tony Meyer schrieb: - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note that there are no religious motives in this remark :) -1. Then what are the motives? I don't like the shape. Snakes and right angles - it's a contradiction. This is just my personal taste. I don't like the logo as it is, too. For my taste it is a bit too far away from what I have seen so far of Python related symbols and reminds too much a cross. It looks very commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face when dealing with Python related icons. The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss the old one if it will go away. Claudio Peter Maas, Aachen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Paddy wrote: I find it much better than the current site, thank you! Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight niggles. What do you think about the following changes? About Python Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that set it apart. * remarkable power with very clear syntax * fully modular, with modules in individual files, or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules for larger projects. * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a functional style of programming too. * exception-based error handling * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use. * interfaces to many system calls and libraries * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets) * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface - Paddy. Maybe: Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart. James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Rocco Moretti wrote: (Not that I like the logo, mind you...) Does anyone? There has to be a better logo! I thought the previous requirement as established by the BDFL was no snakes. These are snakes, and they have no personality to boot. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Claudio Grondi wrote: It looks very commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face when dealing with Python related icons. The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss the old one if it will go away. Yes. The home-page especially looks commercial. I'm expecting a registration screen and some place to agree to the terms and conditions of use and a checkbox to manually opt-out of mass emailings. Simple suggestion: Get a snazzy logo on the old site and, voila, you have the perfect python site. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Roel Schroeven wrote:
Steve Holden schreef:
How does
http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
look?
I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text
overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without
the font-size: 75%.
I'll second this. Normally I keep my web browser at a narrow width to
try to keep lines from being too long, but the lines here are a little
too long even with a narrow window.
(In fact, on my sites, I typically use a style such as this: TD {
width: 30em; } to keep the text narrow. But I don't recommend that for
this site because some people want wide text to fit more on the screen,
aesthetic though it be not.)
Other than that, it looks great. I don't think it looks like a
corporate site; it's actually readable and usable. It cuts down on the
sensory overload from the previous site. And, it passes the no-style
litmus test (i.e.,whether you can still read and understand the site
with the style sheets disabled.)
Carl Banks
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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newer success stories please... mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would be a major improvement except for the logo. I agree with others that the logo is a serious disappointment. Although the symmetry has some initial appeal, I do not see or want to see a two-ness about Python, and I find it disturbing and distracting even without the vague cruciform aspects. In fact, just keeping the top snake would be MUCH better. I want a logo I can be as enthusiastic about as I am about the language, but it will be hard to get unanimity about that, and I can certainly see the need to compromise. Still it's my impression that this one is a big mistake. Unlike, say, the Sun logo which I enjoy looking at (and of which this is a cheap ripoff), this is like the Microsoft Office logo, which I find explicitly off-putting, raising negative associations. I might be convinced that its wrongness will outweigh all the remaining benefits of the redesign. Good: http://cswww.essex.ac.uk/PLANET/summer-school-02/sun-logo-new.GIF Makes you think of cleverness, symmetry, networking, collaboration, energy. It reinforces my positive feelings toward this company. Bad: http://www.genbeta.com/archivos/images/logo_office_2003.jpg Makes you think about petty politics, imbalance, who gets the window office, injustice, asymmetry, deformity. I detest this logo, and it reinforces my avoidance of this company. Bad: http://beta.python.org/images/python-logo.gif Nice font on the text, but the image raises: What is that animal? Is it a snake? If it is, why is it so short? Why are there two of them? Or is it one snake with two heads? Ewww. Why is one facing backwards and the other upside-down? Is that a crucifix? Why would someone make a cross out of snakes? These are people to avoid. Very unsatisfactory, sorry. mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: beta.python.org content
Steve Holden wrote:
How does
http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
look?
Steve,
This is a great writeup. Here are my comments:
1. Fortunately Python is something that an experienced programmer of
another language (be it ...
Add C# and/or Java to this list. The current list might scare away a lot
of people ;).
2. also available as the python-list mailing list
Add or a google group (link).
3. You may want to find out which text editors* are tailored to make
Python editing* easy
Change at two places:
You may want to find out which text editors or IDEs
(http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments) are
tailored to make Python programming easy.
4. Typo: look for 'welcomne'
5. There seems to be a great overlap between this and what could go in
the 'For Developers' section. Maybe we need only one section ('For
Developers'?) In general many pages with overlapping content confuse me
(and probably others)
6. The 'About' page should have an additional section:
Python is Popular
Thousands of developers use Python to make themselves more productive in
application domains across the board - enterprise computing, web
development, game development, scientific and numerical computing,
embedded and mobile development and more. See `Success Stories` and
`Quotes` to discover more.
Thanks,
Shalabh
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
