Re: Beware complexity
Philip Smith wrote: > > Conventions on type conversion are just one example. Without using > strict coding conventions the richness of the language could, and > often did, result in ambiguity. In my experience too C++ has > defeated its own object (eg portability) - I've given up in many > cases trying to compile third party libraries because I don't have > the time to collect every version of every compiler for every > platform in existence which is what C++ seems to demand (particularly > if you are trying to cross-compile Unix->Windows). Isn't that going to happen to any popular, ISO standard language? An ISO standard, oddly enough, means that compiler vendors will compete to add value to the standard. Having a language remain under the iron grip of 1 developer is both a blessing and a curse. Some things remain wonderfully well controlled and coordinated; other things are suppressed according to the idiosyncratic whim of the arch-developer. FWIW this dilemma has had profound historical importance. It's the main reason the Chinese didn't colonize and conquer the world, despite having a 61 year head start in maritime expansion. Isolationist agrarian Confucians beat expansionist maritime Eunuchs in a civil war, then banned all the shipping for 130 years. Europe, being composed of many competing powers who would try new things to gain an advantage, cleaned up. My point is that Python may someday grow beyond the notion of 'BDFL', as heretical as that may sound. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "Troll" - (n.) Anything you don't like. Usage: "He's just a troll." -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python becoming less Lisp-like
James Graves wrote: > > So with Python 3000, you're going to end up with a language just as > big as CL, but without the most fundamental building blocks. Ah > well, to each his own. Preventing people from building things from scratch is probably an industrial advantage. Look how fragmented the Lisp world is. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "witch-hunt" - (noun) (Date: 1885) 1: a searching out for persecution of persons accused of witchcraft 2: the searching out and deliberate harassment of those (as political opponents) with unpopular views - witch-hunter (noun) - witch-hunting (noun or adjective) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
compiled open source Windows lisp (was Re: Python becoming less Lisp-like)
James Graves wrote: > > If you want to do application development, Common Lisp is where it's > at, no doubt about it. There are more and better libraries for CL > these days, and they are easier to install and manage with tools like > ASDF. Multiple open-source implementations, covering the most popular > platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac). Last I looked, 2 years ago?, there were no compiled, open source lisps that ran on Windows. Has this changed? -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: compiled open source Windows lisp
Christopher C. Stacy wrote: > > All this information has been available in FAQs and > on many web pages since forever. When I Google for "comp.lang.lisp FAQ," I get a document that was last updated in 1997. Consequently I do not pay attention to it. I do peruse newsgroup archives, and I did make a thorough search of "Lisp stuff" 2 years ago. It is possible, however, that my criteria was somewhat more restrictive back then. As for "websites," well, there's a sea of them. I ask human beings for pointers because it saves time. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA 20% of the world is real. 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: compiled open source Windows lisp (was Re: Python becoming less Lisp-like)
Carl Shapiro wrote: > "Brandon J. Van Every" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > >> Last I looked, 2 years ago?, there were no compiled, open source >> lisps that ran on Windows. Has this changed? > > I have a virtually completed port of CMUCL to Win32. [etc] Ah, so you're the brave lad I heard about. :-) Well, good going! Hope to see it sometime. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
web authoring tools
As is easily noticed, my website sucks. Enough people keep ragging on me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it. However, I currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it. Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool implemented in Python, so that possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it. That said, I would like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer. I don't feel that FrontPage 2000 does this. I'm saying there's a certain level of maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha quality" thing. If you know of such a beast in Python, please let me know. Here are some examples of reasonable website designs for my purposes as a game developer or consultant: http://www.igda.org/seattle/ http://www.cyphondesign.com/ http://www.alphageeksinc.com/ http://www.gamasutra.com The first 3 sites "breathe well," they aren't cluttered. Gamasutra is a little cluttered, but has good aesthetics. Also when I write articles for other people's consumption, this is the standard I'd measure them by. I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like Gamasutra. That's a quality vs. quantity issue. I don't know if I want a web forum. I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let Yahoo! Groups do the mailing list job. I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff. My local machine where I do all development is Windows. I'd be interested to know about Linux solutions too though. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: web authoring tools
"Fredrik Lundh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Brandon J. Van Every wrote: > >> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool >> implemented in Python > > didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or > scheme? I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is still ongoing and perhaps genuinely useful answers will arise, but in the interest of time I thought I'd initiate Plan B. The Python universe has a much larger cadre of web designers than the Lisp / Scheme universe, so I figured the answers here would be of a higher quality. I don't think Python is appropriate to all programming tasks, but it's definitely appropriate to web development and I wouldn't mind using / contributing to open source web development tools written in it. > did you try the one frank wrote for you? > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6df9eb74bfd1 > 6310 No, because although it's amusing, it doesn't accomplish anything I wish to accomplish. Currently my website does exactly what I intend it to do. I want to see how long it is before I actually do something about it, and when people say "Your website is down" it actually amuses me. Plus reminds me that perhaps I should do something. > (for python tools, start here: http://www.python.org/topics/web/ ) Thanks! -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: web authoring tools
Ron_Adam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in >> >>http://www.igda.org/seattle/ >>http://www.cyphondesign.com/ >>http://www.alphageeksinc.com/ >>http://www.gamasutra.com > > These top three where done with text editors. If you view the source, > you will notice the formatting has good consistent indenting and there > isn't a lot of extra tags or other information needlessly inserted. > > They make good use of CSS for formatting also. If this is the type of > thing you want, save the pages and study how they did it. Use your > own text and graphics of course. Thanks for that insight. It may not be the answer I exactly wanted to hear, but it does ring true with regards to my FrontPage 2000 experience. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: web authoring tools
=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool implemented in Python >>> >>> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp >>> or scheme? >> >> I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was >> getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is >> still > > You mean you are interested in a web application programming > framework in > the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of > Dreamweaver ? I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic. I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: web authoring tools
Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > Brandon J. Van Every wrote: >> >> I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and >> eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself >> engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic. >> I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism. >> >> > I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination > to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common > sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding > database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel > would be of interest. > > Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to > generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently > about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship > problems for the less-taxing content. See > > http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/04/versioned-reviews-implemented-po > st.html > > to determine whether the overall approach would work for you. I have 2 goals: 1) to worry about plumbing as little as possible, as I generate articles and content. Once a framework is established, this can be handled "cookie cutter." 2) to create a unique brand identity based on good eye candy. For this part of the problem, the website cannot look generic. At a minimum, I would need a facility that allows me to painlessly arrange my own 2D artwork. -- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
