Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Dear list, thanx for sharing your insights on spatialite etc. (i like spatialite as well very much and also prefer the spatialite_gui for e.g. importing files cause it' way faster), but as André stated, this thread was originally about MS Access databases support in QGIS. Of course i would like to tell people to convert their data to spatialite or even postgis, but the reality is, that i can't catch the fish, when i haven't a worm. And the worm in this case would be to easily (and setting up an odbc-connection isn't easy for normal people but rocket science) add MS Access tables to qgis without a fuzz. In the real world (not this geeks list, sorry), people have unfortunately no time nor understanding for learning these things and are just happy when things work as they were told. And in this real world, everyone trying to do some business of course has to have a MS Office Professional suit, so MS Access is the most likely way for them to store and handle bigger datasets quite easily. We of course can bemourne the complete ignorance of the world and insist on the right way, but i think we should also help the world to be able to follow us. A lot people have to buy ESRI stuff only to be able to do 'primitive' things (like dealing with access databases + spatial data, but they have to cause their environment is delivering or requesting data in special formats. Of course i would like to sponsor such a development and pay a developer, but 1. i have no idea how much this would cost 2. i surely can't afford it 3. i already donate as much as i can from the fees from my qgis trainings. Is there any way inside the qgis-web-environment, to set up a bounty and let others donate as well for special issues like this one? Cause i can't afford anything on my own, but maybe a lot of us can. Greetz Bernd Am 22.09.2012, 15:46 Uhr, schrieb Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de: Am 22.09.2012 14:57, schrieb Micha Silver: I have a feeling that QSpatialite is somewhat behind. I'm using spatialite 3.0 with the spatialite_gui 1.5 and there you have access to the new format for making use of spatial indexes. The problem is that, unlike PostGIS, spatial indexes are not used automatically. After you create a spatial index on a table, you must then construct your query to make use of it. This is certainly non-intuitive for normal people. I would surely use those spatial index features if they are fully incorporated in Qgis. In the meantime, I don't wont to spoil my existing databases with external programs. For large datasets, I still can export to my Openstreetmap Postgis database, which works fine. Ok, but the topic here is not about spatialite or Postgis databases, but MS Access ones. Greetings, André Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user -- Bernd Vogelgesang * Siedlerstrasse 2 * 91083 Baiersdorf * +49-9133-825374 ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
But ESRI does NOT recommend to use personal-geodatabases as i show in a link, above. It's get slow around 500Mb and have a maximun limit of 2GB for instance. /Cheers 2012/9/23 Andrea Peri aperi2...@gmail.com I guess who buy an arcgis, should still use it. :)) If an user is happy with the results of arcgis and its personal-geodatabse. AFAIK arcgis and personal-geodatabase, has a simpatic mechanism to transform the coords in a quantized value coords. It a curious mechanism perhpas the best an human can invent, but it has only a little problem. It change always the cords when an user share their dataset with other users having another geodatabse with different precision in it. If an user don't see a problem in this. I guess it is better still to use this wonderful product. :)) I guess spatialite is not a good product for this users. Regards, -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Yes is true. Esri don't recommend the personal-gdb. Esri recommend the arcsde version. Because the access db is slow and with size limit (2GB). The spatialite instead has not a size limit and is fast. :) But I guess there is another more important question: spatialite work in double precision indipendently by the extent of the DB. In the personal-geodatabase (9.1 version) is the extent of dataset is 10km there is a precision P1. If the extent of the dataset is 1000Km the precision is P2 with P2 worst than P1. Spatialite don't do this. Johan Nilsson joni8...@gmail.com But ESRI does NOT recommend to use personal-geodatabases as i show in a link, above. It's get slow around 500Mb and have a maximun limit of 2GB for instance. /Cheers 2012/9/23 Andrea Peri aperi2...@gmail.com I guess who buy an arcgis, should still use it. :)) If an user is happy with the results of arcgis and its personal-geodatabse. AFAIK arcgis and personal-geodatabase, has a simpatic mechanism to transform the coords in a quantized value coords. It a curious mechanism perhpas the best an human can invent, but it has only a little problem. It change always the cords when an user share their dataset with other users having another geodatabse with different precision in it. If an user don't see a problem in this. I guess it is better still to use this wonderful product. :)) I guess spatialite is not a good product for this users. Regards, -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
According to this, ERSI recommend file geodatabase over personal geodatabas and arcsde are for multiuser system and need additional software and licenes, I tthink. So If you only have Arcgis they recommend file database och personal geodatabase, not ArcSDE. I think. http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/index.cfm?topicname=types_of_geodatabases 2012/9/23 Andrea Peri aperi2...@gmail.com Yes is true. Esri don't recommend the personal-gdb. Esri recommend the arcsdk Because the access db is slow and with size limit (2GB). The spatialite instead has not a size limit and is fast. :) But I guess there is another more important question: spatialite work in double precision indipendently by the extent of the DB. In the personal-geodatabase (9.1 version) is the extent of dataset is 10km there is a precision P1. If the extent of the dataset is 1000Km the precision is P2 with P2 worst than P1. Spatialite don't do this. Johan Nilsson joni8...@gmail.com But ESRI does NOT recommend to use personal-geodatabases as i show in a link, above. It's get slow around 500Mb and have a maximun limit of 2GB for instance. /Cheers 2012/9/23 Andrea Peri aperi2...@gmail.com I guess who buy an arcgis, should still use it. :)) If an user is happy with the results of arcgis and its personal-geodatabse. AFAIK arcgis and personal-geodatabase, has a simpatic mechanism to transform the coords in a quantized value coords. It a curious mechanism perhpas the best an human can invent, but it has only a little problem. It change always the cords when an user share their dataset with other users having another geodatabse with different precision in it. If an user don't see a problem in this. I guess it is better still to use this wonderful product. :)) I guess spatialite is not a good product for this users. Regards, -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
[Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Johan Nilsson joni8...@gmail.com Date: 2012/9/22 Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] Normal mdb support possible for normal people? To: Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de Andre Bernard. There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. mdb are also a propretarian format and there are problem to read and write without MS Access. 2012/9/22 Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de HiBernd, apart from the solution you mention, MS Access database tables can also be accessed via the evis plugin. But this is only a one-way-importer. It should be possible to connect to MDBs the same way as postgis and spatialite databases. I think the problem comes with database synchronisation and parallel working on the same database. In such cases, the ultimate answer is: You can have what you want, if you pay a developer for it. Greetings, André Joost Am 22.09.2012 00:59, schrieb Bernd Vogelgesang: Hi there, from a talk at the German User Meeting today in Kassel (thanx to Claas for the organization), i got the impression that ONE important thing in qgis is still missing: Direct support for normal access databases! Personal geodatabases work like a charm now (many thanx for this!), but i was told, that a lot of people who would be the perfect target group for qgis, still work on a completely gis-free level, dealing with their data in normal access databases or even worse formats. To catch those people and show them the light, it seems to me to be crucial, that qgis would be able to add/join/edit normal tables from normal access database as well without having to do such odbc-magic apprx. 99% of the world population have never heard of. Here http://osgeo-org.1560.n6.**nabble.com/direct-mdb-read-in-** QGis-td4637313.htmlhttp://osgeo-org.1560.n6.nabble.com/direct-mdb-read-in-QGis-td4637313.html i found a solution for geeks, but how about those people like me or john doe, who have no idea about how to compile gdal with other stuff but are merely able to do some gis work? I couldn'd find a feature request on the hub on this matter, so i wonder if this would be a good feature request, or whether there are technical, legal or political constraints preventing such a support so far. As far as i understand ESRI personal geodatabases are just some pimped access databases, so the impossibility to just load such in qgis is a mystery to me. Can anybody shed some light on this issue? __**_ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/**mailman/listinfo/qgis-userhttp://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Am 22.09.2012 09:17, schrieb Johan Nilsson: There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. Yes, that's true. Spatial index will not be possible on MDBs (as well as on spataialite). But MS Access is widely spread, so a connection would be highly appreciated. And MDBs are easily portable (again, as well as spatialite). Thats a great advantage to Postgis. Greetings, Andre Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Okey. I'm new to database use i GIS and have only used file database that ESRI recommend. But if mdb are a propretarian and only work well with MS access, how can it then be highly portable? 2012/9/22 Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de Am 22.09.2012 09:17, schrieb Johan Nilsson: There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. Yes, that's true. Spatial index will not be possible on MDBs (as well as on spataialite). But MS Access is widely spread, so a connection would be highly appreciated. And MDBs are easily portable (again, as well as spatialite). Thats a great advantage to Postgis. Greetings, Andre Joost __**_ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/**mailman/listinfo/qgis-userhttp://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
On 09/22/2012 10:27 AM, Andre Joost wrote: Am 22.09.2012 09:17, schrieb Johan Nilsson: There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. Yes, that's true. Spatial index will not be possible on MDBs (as well as on spataialite). But MS Access is widely spread, so a connection would be highly appreciated. And MDBs are easily portable (again, as well as spatialite). Thats a great advantage to Postgis. I'm not sure I understood your comment, but spatial indexing is definitely supported in Spatialite using the R*Tree structure. Best regards, -- Micha Greetings, Andre Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user This mail was received via Mail-SeCure System. -- Micha Silver GIS Consultant, Arava Development Co. http://www.surfaces.co.il ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Am 22.09.2012 09:43, schrieb Johan Nilsson: Okey. I'm new to database use i GIS and have only used file database that ESRI recommend. But if mdb are a propretarian and only work well with MS access, how can it then be highly portable? I thought of portable in the sense of taking a database from one computer to another. MDB and sqlite are just one file, Shapefile a couple of files, and PostgreSQL/Postgis is very complicated to share/take with you or make a security copy. Greetings, André Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Am 22.09.2012 13:47, schrieb Micha Silver: On 09/22/2012 10:27 AM, Andre Joost wrote: Am 22.09.2012 09:17, schrieb Johan Nilsson: There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. Yes, that's true. Spatial index will not be possible on MDBs (as well as on spataialite). But MS Access is widely spread, so a connection would be highly appreciated. And MDBs are easily portable (again, as well as spatialite). Thats a great advantage to Postgis. I'm not sure I understood your comment, but spatial indexing is definitely supported in Spatialite using the R*Tree structure. I referred to the spatialite 2.1 manual still first in Google search. I guess its not fully supported by the stable Qgis 1.8.0. In DB Manager, I have an entry Spatial Index, but get an error no such module: VirtualSpatialIndex. Qspatialite throws an error for the same reason, and a message No spatial index defined. I read that spatialitegui might solve the problem, but I want to work inside Qgis. So still nothing for normal people ;-) Using Master I get other errors about missing pyspatialite. Gruß, André Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
On 9/22/12, Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: I referred to the spatialite 2.1 manual still first in Google search. I guess its not fully supported by the stable Qgis 1.8.0. In DB Manager, I have an entry Spatial Index, but get an error no such module: VirtualSpatialIndex. Qspatialite throws an error for the same reason, and a message No spatial index defined. I read that spatialitegui might solve the problem, but I want to work inside Qgis. So still nothing for normal people ;-) Using Master I get other errors about missing pyspatialite. Here's to install pyspatialite. http://www.gaia-gis.it/spatialite-3.0.0-BETA/spatialite-cookbook/html/python.html Noli ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Hi Andre: On 09/22/2012 03:17 PM, Andre Joost wrote: Am 22.09.2012 13:47, schrieb Micha Silver: On 09/22/2012 10:27 AM, Andre Joost wrote: Am 22.09.2012 09:17, schrieb Johan Nilsson: There is another thing with 'Personal geodatabase' and that is that ESRI don't recommend to use it in their documentation because it slow and get really slow if they are bigger and the absolute size are limited. Yes, that's true. Spatial index will not be possible on MDBs (as well as on spataialite). But MS Access is widely spread, so a connection would be highly appreciated. And MDBs are easily portable (again, as well as spatialite). Thats a great advantage to Postgis. I'm not sure I understood your comment, but spatial indexing is definitely supported in Spatialite using the R*Tree structure. I referred to the spatialite 2.1 manual still first in Google search. I learned a lot from: http://www.gaia-gis.it/spatialite-3.0.0-BETA/spatialite-cookbook/html/rtree.html Also have a look at these blog posts: http://northredoubt.com/n/2012/01/18/spatialite-and-spatial-indexes/ http://www.surfaces.co.il/?p=1196 I guess its not fully supported by the stable Qgis 1.8.0. In DB Manager, I have an entry Spatial Index, but get an error "no such module: VirtualSpatialIndex". Qspatialite throws an error for the same reason, and a message "No spatial index defined". I have a feeling that QSpatialite is somewhat behind. I'm using spatialite 3.0 with the spatialite_gui 1.5 and there you have access to the new format for making use of spatial indexes. The problem is that, unlike PostGIS, spatial indexes are not used automatically. After you create a spatial index on a table, you must then construct your query to make use of it. This is certainly non-intuitive for "normal people". Regards, Micha I read that spatialitegui might solve the problem, but I want to work inside Qgis. So still nothing for "normal" people ;-) Using Master I get other errors about missing pyspatialite. Gru, Andr Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user This mail was received via Mail-SeCure System. -- Micha Silver GIS Consultant, Arava Development Co. http://www.surfaces.co.il ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Fist. I know very little about using dedicated realationdatabase in GIS. I not sure about why ESRI support mdb then they quiet strongly recommend you NOT to use it. http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/index.cfm?topicname=types_of_geodatabases I think to hold files in a directory (folder) are a very sheep price compared to slow performance limited storage to max 2 GB. Does anyone know if there may be other problems with MS Access files? Missed seached data and so on? Cheers 2012/9/22 Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de Am 22.09.2012 09:43, schrieb Johan Nilsson: Okey. I'm new to database use i GIS and have only used file database that ESRI recommend. But if mdb are a propretarian and only work well with MS access, how can it then be highly portable? I thought of portable in the sense of taking a database from one computer to another. MDB and sqlite are just one file, Shapefile a couple of files, and PostgreSQL/Postgis is very complicated to share/take with you or make a security copy. Greetings, André Joost __**_ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/**mailman/listinfo/qgis-userhttp://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Am 22.09.2012 14:57, schrieb Micha Silver: I have a feeling that QSpatialite is somewhat behind. I'm using spatialite 3.0 with the spatialite_gui 1.5 and there you have access to the new format for making use of spatial indexes. The problem is that, unlike PostGIS, spatial indexes are not used automatically. After you create a spatial index on a table, you must then construct your query to make use of it. This is certainly non-intuitive for normal people. I would surely use those spatial index features if they are fully incorporated in Qgis. In the meantime, I don't wont to spoil my existing databases with external programs. For large datasets, I still can export to my Openstreetmap Postgis database, which works fine. Ok, but the topic here is not about spatialite or Postgis databases, but MS Access ones. Greetings, André Joost ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
[Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
* I'm not sure I understood your comment, but spatial indexing is definitely** supported in Spatialite using the R*Tree structure.* I referred to the spatialite 2.1 manual still first in Google search. I guess its not fully supported by the stable Qgis 1.8.0. In DB Manager, I have an entry Spatial Index, but get an error no such module: VirtualSpatialIndex. Qspatialite throws an error for the same reason, and a message No spatial index defined. I read that spatialitegui might solve the problem, but I want to work inside Qgis. So still nothing for normal people ;-) Using Master I get other errors about missing pyspatialite. Gruß, André Joost The spatialite 2.1 is a three year older version. As you can understand if you compare an access 97 db with an access 2002 db you can find many differenze. The same happened for spatialite. as example: If you try to open an access 97 db with a program that want an access 2002 you more probably can see the same error. :) So if you want to pass from a access97 to an access 2002 you should buy the access program and use it. AFAIK it is the only world program capable to trasform a acces 97 file in an access 2002 file. The actual stable version of spatialite is the 3.0.1. This version is compatible with the qgis spatialite driver. Actually the spatialite developer is releasing the spatialite 4.0. It is in RC phase. After the release stable of splite 4.0 , I hope the qgis driver for splite will be updated to support the 4.0 version. I referred to the spatialite 2.1 manual still first in Google search. Be the first in google search mean only that there is many links on internet. However searching spatialite on google the first result is the homeèage of spatialite site where there is the link to the last stable version.3.0.1 :) Regads, -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
[Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
* I have a feeling that QSpatialite is somewhat behind. I'm using spatialite 3.0** with the spatialite_gui 1.5 and there you have access to the new format for** making use of spatial indexes. The problem is that, unlike PostGIS, spatial indexes are not used automatically.** After you create a spatial index on a table, you must then construct your query** to make use of it. This is certainly non-intuitive for normal people.*** I would surely use those spatial index features if they are fully incorporated in Qgis. In the meantime, I don't wont to spoil my existing databases with external programs. For large datasets, I still can export to my Openstreetmap Postgis database, which works fine. Ok, but the topic here is not about spatialite or Postgis databases, but MS Access ones. Greetings, André Joost The spatialite spatil-index are not automatically applicated. The client must apply it the index. In the qgis spatialite driver this happened. The qgis driver for spatialite automatically apply the index when available. Just to test this, you can create a huge DB on spatialite without any spatial-index and see the time to navigate it on details scale. After you create an index (please read how to create a spatial index in a spatialite db) and see the difference. Regards, -- - Andrea Peri . . . . . . . . . qwerty àèìòù - ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] Fwd: Normal mdb support possible for normal people?
Le samedi 22 septembre 2012 16:47:51 Paolo Cavallini a écrit : Il 22/09/2012 13:55, Andre Joost ha scritto: PostgreSQL/Postgis is very complicated to share/take with you or make a security copy. actually it is easier: CREATE USER user GRANT SELECT ON table TO user no need to move files around, risky and inelegant. all the best. Paolo, Sharing/using data doesn't always mean inside the same network/company. Some time you need to share data outside you company and so it is easier to share files. Some user are not DB user but can use QGIS for what they need. But I am sure you know this ;) I always talk about spatialite format in my trainning as I am sure it is the futur most common GIS formats. Spatialite and PostGIS support the same OGC standard for DB (and same lib ?) so spatial functions are the same. I tested migrating a SQL script a few monthes ago from PostGIS to Spatialite and I only need to change geometry column name to make things working :) Y. -- Yves Jacolin ___ Qgis-user mailing list Qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
