Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Plastic wrote: > "Boring mainstream means cheap mainstream In my humble opinion not cheaper for the special QL-style target we were talking. > means long term availability of standard designs at commodity prices. The opposite. Average lifespan for today's mainstream ARM MCUs is shorter than for FPGA. (Exceptions exist.) > One of the > problems hardware developers have faced in the past is they'd > pick a suitable programmable logic chip, then it would be > superseded, and they'd have to modify their designs. No point. You have to modify your design _much_ more if you need a newer generation MCU, and not just a newer logic chip. Once you have your logic including CPU in a standard HDL like Verilog, you gain the easiest upgrade path possible - far better that depending on a MCU vendor. This also goes for the peripherals. > The idea of a QL in a CPLD is nice. The Q60 split it across four - a > no-brainer at the time - but I am sure there's lots you could do > differently with newer devices on the market. I could have fitted the logic into a single chip back then. The reasons were PCB layout, noise considerations, and the fact that four chips give you more pins per area (as long as you have no BGA package). > I favor the ARM family for a couple of reasons: it's a standard > instruction set that is simple, fast, well documented You are free to favor ARM over 68K of course. That's just a matter of taste - but off our topic :-) > and incredibly cheap. My 2W power statements are for high end devices > with dual cores. Many bottom end system-on-chip ARM devices have > standard 500MHz, IDE, SATA, USB, video, I2C, etc and could easily > emulate a SGC QL. Inside a QL case, nobody would even know they were > not a QL unless told, shown, or very VERY observant ;) The owner will know... not to have to deal with Linux if you run UQLX is unrealistic. > You say it would be a "massive" amount of Linux work, but the work has > already been done. ??? You were talking to strip down an ARM Linux distro to a minimal system optimized for quick boot into UQLX. _That_ is a massive amount of future work. And only a Linux expert could do it. I'm sure ARM + Linux + UQLX does nowhere put QDOS/SMSQ in an "open market". Emulated QDOS/SMSQ is nonsense for an embedded system, unless someone already had QL affinity and experience before. (Even I would hardly choose QDOS/SMSQ for a commercial embedded system. And certainly not if it doesn't run native.) All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Peter wrote: > Plastic wrote: > > > The reason I said ARM is because it's readily available extremely > > cheaply, easy to design with, and there's a plethora of available > > boards already. > > You could use any Microcontroller with Linux. It is debatable which non- > 68K controller would be the best. I might vote for SuperH instead of ARM, > but don't you think all of them are boring mainstream? :-) > "Boring mainstream means cheap mainstream means long term availability of standard designs at commodity prices. One of the problems hardware developers have faced in the past is they'd pick a suitable programmable logic chip, then it would be superseded, and they'd have to modify their designs. The idea of a QL in a CPLD is nice. The Q60 split it across four - a no-brainer at the time - but I am sure there's lots you could do differently with newer devices on the market. I favor the ARM family for a couple of reasons: it's a standard instruction set that is simple, fast, well documented and incredibly cheap. My 2W power statements are for high end devices with dual cores. Many bottom end system-on-chip ARM devices have standard 500MHz, IDE, SATA, USB, video, I2C, etc and could easily emulate a SGC QL. Inside a QL case, nobody would even know they were not a QL unless told, shown, or very VERY observant ;) This raises the question of what is a "real" QL. Different people have different answers. I would expect a hardware designer to find a hardware aspect to be primary, and a OS user to favor the OS experience. Finally, ARM <> Intel. Intel licensed the ARM design when they acquired Digital and the original StrongARM designs. They lost interest in the market segment and sold it off, and not ten minutes later, it got interesting in that segment and they started the mobile designs which led to the current Atom chips. Atom is okay, but it draws "an order of magnitude" more power than an ARM board and has approx. 3x the hardware cost. Embedded linux is already on ARM, if Clive were active today in this market, I think ARM is what he'd choose. > Following the ARM route, we can easily obtain ready made boards for > > around $100 (70 ukp) complete, or design our own (where are you, Nasta?) > > and build them for around $150 (100 ukp). > > Add margin and it sounds expensive compared to a QL on a chip :-) > When you add the hard drive, interfaces, PCB, the cost would be about the same. However, the quirky, hardly any of them exist, everything is a little bit experimental, a little bit of a hack, using NOS components with no reliable supply. It would be attractive to some in the community, but nobody outside of it. It's a closed market. ARM (or Intel ;) puts QDOS/SMSQ in an open market of standard, supported hardware where traders can sell the boards into embedded markets too, gain economies of scale, and promote the QDOS aspect to new people who might like an easy programmable device for all kinds of embedded applications - I'm convinced (though not being very realistic) that SuperBASIC is a quick developer's dream, and the SBASIC -> C converters etc would do well, also. You say it would be a "massive" amount of Linux work, but the work has already been done. Linux is there and is self-supported and developing. uQLx is there, and works quite well on Linux. It could use some development to increase options, but that's right up this community's street ;) Same would be possible for x86, and obviously nobody cares. You still boot > something which is multitudes the size and complexity of Minerva. I can > see no news and no sensation here. ARM or not ARM, running a different OS > with emulator will never be as cool as the real thing :-) There aren't ever going to be more new QLs. There may be one last gasp Motorola-based board, but I suspect not because the Q60 already fills that role very well. It's neat. And costs more than a high end laptop here in the States. At some point in the next 5-10 years all these QLs will start to become unreliable and die. We need to replace them with something, or the community will disperse. My "heart's desire" is that QDOS, in all its forms, carries on and grows and is seen by new people who are not a captive audience. Our poor kids! It's a cool and capable embedded OS that could do need things... like be in micro-sats, robots, washing machine controllers, home monitoring systems, car entertainment system... Anywhere linux on ARM naturally goes. For me, ARM is a no-brainer. For you, the argument is less compelling, and you're *absolutely right* to feel that way. If the QL was ever just one person's direction, we wouldn't all still be using it, and SMSQ/E, the Q60, the pointer environment, and emulations wouldn't exist. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Roy Wood wrote, on 25/Jan/11 17:52 | Jan25: On 25/01/2011 16:18, Tony Firshman wrote: Norman Dunbar wrote, on 25/Jan/11 08:23 | Jan25: My real heart's desire is, ironically, a hardware/software project, to put together a package of an ARM-based embedded computer with Linux, booting right into uQLx, so that it is basically a QL. Getting it so it can fit inside a QL case with PSU and a couple of laptop SATA HDs or compact flash cards Far too costly - it will cost you and 'ARM' and a leg. ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Ah that reminds me of a group of people standing around a QLer in Eindhoven showing off his digital camera, in the very early days of these. I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I assure you. He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. Fortunately he spoke little English and did not understand, but he must have thought I made a good joke, from the laughter around (8-)# Tony Actually he was missing a hand and part of the arm. I hoped Roy would see this - he was one of the merciless laughers (of course) (8-)# Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
gdgqler wrote, on 25/Jan/11 16:58 | Jan25: On 25 Jan 2011, at 16:43, Norman Dunbar wrote: ... I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I assure you. He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. Oh dear! I used to have an expression for my unwillingness to carry out a requested task, or whatever. I used to reply "I'd rather stick my arm in a mincer!". I used it for many years, possibly irritating many people as I did so. One day a new girl started at work in my office. I was just about to use the expression, in her presence, when I noticed that she had an artificial arm! I stopped using that expression there and then! :-) When my wife asks me to do something uncongenial I pretend i don't hear and just carry on programming, probably in Assembler. This may be equally irritating. Many years ago my mother ground up one of my fingers in a wringer. This makes it slightly more difficult than it should to play the flute. It has no noticeable effect on programming though. Ouch. Was that a punishment (8-)# Even loss of fingers though had no noticeable effect on Django R's guitar playing. Remember the Eric Morecambe sketch? He was in a hospital bed, with both hands in bandages. He asked the surgeon "Will I ever be able to play the piano again". "I am afraid not" "Well that's OK then - I couldn't play before". Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
On 25/01/2011 16:18, Tony Firshman wrote: Norman Dunbar wrote, on 25/Jan/11 08:23 | Jan25: My real heart's desire is, ironically, a hardware/software project, to put together a package of an ARM-based embedded computer with Linux, booting right into uQLx, so that it is basically a QL. Getting it so it can fit inside a QL case with PSU and a couple of laptop SATA HDs or compact flash cards Far too costly - it will cost you and 'ARM' and a leg. ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Ah that reminds me of a group of people standing around a QLer in Eindhoven showing off his digital camera, in the very early days of these. I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I assure you. He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. Fortunately he spoke little English and did not understand, but he must have thought I made a good joke, from the laughter around (8-)# Tony Actually he was missing a hand and part of the arm. Roy -- Roy Wood ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Oh dear! I used to have an expression for my unwillingness to carry out a requested task, or whatever. I used to reply "I'd rather stick my arm in a mincer!". I used it for many years, possibly irritating many people as I did so. One day a new girl started at work in my office. I was just about to use the expression, in her presence, when I noticed that she had an artificial arm! I stopped using that expression there and then! :-) Cheers, Norman. I'm sure many of us have said something like this and caused offence without even the faintest intention of doing so! My personal embarrassment of this kind was a comment about "getting legless" in the presence of an amputee. Very luckily he saw the funny side and didn't take offence... Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
On 25 Jan 2011, at 16:43, Norman Dunbar wrote: >> >> ... >> I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I >> assure you. >> He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. > > Oh dear! I used to have an expression for my unwillingness to carry out > a requested task, or whatever. I used to reply "I'd rather stick my arm > in a mincer!". > > I used it for many years, possibly irritating many people as I did so. > > One day a new girl started at work in my office. I was just about to use > the expression, in her presence, when I noticed that she had an > artificial arm! I stopped using that expression there and then! > > :-) > When my wife asks me to do something uncongenial I pretend i don't hear and just carry on programming, probably in Assembler. This may be equally irritating. Many years ago my mother ground up one of my fingers in a wringer. This makes it slightly more difficult than it should to play the flute. It has no noticeable effect on programming though. George ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Hi Tony, > ... > I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I > assure you. > He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. Oh dear! I used to have an expression for my unwillingness to carry out a requested task, or whatever. I used to reply "I'd rather stick my arm in a mincer!". I used it for many years, possibly irritating many people as I did so. One day a new girl started at work in my office. I was just about to use the expression, in her presence, when I noticed that she had an artificial arm! I stopped using that expression there and then! :-) Cheers, Norman. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Norman Dunbar wrote, on 25/Jan/11 08:23 | Jan25: My real heart's desire is, ironically, a hardware/software project, to put together a package of an ARM-based embedded computer with Linux, booting right into uQLx, so that it is basically a QL. Getting it so it can fit inside a QL case with PSU and a couple of laptop SATA HDs or compact flash cards Far too costly - it will cost you and 'ARM' and a leg. ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Ah that reminds me of a group of people standing around a QLer in Eindhoven showing off his digital camera, in the very early days of these. I said "That must have cost you an arm and a leg" - innocently I assure you. He had physical problems and very little use of his arms and hands. Fortunately he spoke little English and did not understand, but he must have thought I made a good joke, from the laughter around (8-)# Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Plastic wrote: > The reason I said ARM is because it's readily available extremely > cheaply, easy to design with, and there's a plethora of available > boards already. You could use any Microcontroller with Linux. It is debatable which non- 68K controller would be the best. I might vote for SuperH instead of ARM, but don't you think all of them are boring mainstream? :-) > The Motorola route (like the Q40/Q60) is nice'n'all > [..] That was very long ago... My own chips include the 68K processor for half a decade ;-) > The high end Coldfire route puts impositions on the OS to change > to conform to changes in instructions and registers that would be > so burdensome nobody will invest the energy. Back then I had a special idea how to work around the essential problems by hardware. But you are right inasmuch I no longer have the energy. > ARM cores are everywhere, run embedded Linux universally, and can > emulate a 680X0 faster than a 680X0 can run, natively. Mainstream again... Want a list of more CPU which can do? Yawn... :-) > Current generation multi-core ARM chips are rivaling Intel performance > in a 2W power budget. ARM chips _are_ Intel nowadays :-) As for 2W CPU power: Sounds more than what I have in mind... > Following the ARM route, we can easily obtain ready made boards for > around $100 (70 ukp) complete, or design our own (where are you, Nasta?) > and build them for around $150 (100 ukp). Add margin and it sounds expensive compared to a QL on a chip :-) > Separately, we could have our own linux distribution that strips out > EVERYTHING except the ability to run the QL emulation. Massive amount of Linux work... who would care enough to do all that? > That would make it incredibly tiny and fast-loading with a small > memory footprint and would give us the entire sensation of using > a hardware QL. Same would be possible for x86, and obviously nobody cares. You still boot something which is multitudes the size and complexity of Minerva. I can see no news and no sensation here. ARM or not ARM, running a different OS with emulator will never be as cool as the real thing :-) > In the longer term future I could see people becoming enamored with the > beauty of ARM assembly when compared against 68k assembly. If your interest is the beauty of ARM, then of course ARM is the right platform for you :-) (But didn't you write your hearts desire was the QL?) All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Programming project request...
Morning Dave, >>> My real heart's desire is, ironically, a hardware/software project, to >>> put together a package of an ARM-based embedded computer with Linux, >>> booting right into uQLx, so that it is basically a QL. Getting it so >>> it can fit inside a QL case with PSU and a couple of laptop SATA HDs >>> or compact flash cards Far too costly - it will cost you and 'ARM' and a leg. ;-) (Sorry, couldn't resist!) -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
