Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Hi Adrian, In the end, and to be absolutely blunt about it, it simply wasn't worth the effort required for the small return. For myself, the problem is lack of time not lack of money. To see the QL- SD fail because of money would be tragic. If your decision can still be reconsidered, please contact me privately and let me know the amount you require - independent of what you'll be able to sell. I hate to see the QL-SD fail just because I have no time. You have such an in-depth knowledge of this project already. For me, the obstacle to explain someone else the technical side of QL-SD is far higher than helping on the financial side. All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Marcel Kilgus wrote: It was always possible to implement different file systems, SMSQ/E itself comes with FAT12 support built-in for example. A layered approach would just ensure that the file system could easily be shared between hardware drivers. But with the state things are in, everybody has to more or less invent the wheel anew or share the code on a source level only. Follow-up: actually it seems TT has introduced a separation between hardware and file system in the DV3 drivers. There even seems to be a FAT16 driver in there, which is however never used. Doesn't help much for driver targeting QDOS, of course, but interesting nonetheless. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Interestingly it looks as though the driver is only 4K !! Well. That is not the driver. That is a simple proof-of-concept program to demonstrate the speed achieved with MOVE.L reads from the card. More details (spanish, but Google traslate is your friend) here: http://www.speccy.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=15t=2281start=30#p23561 A proper QDOS driver is still needed. That remainds me of a thing I'd like to know and it's not very clear in the documentation I've read: for a directory device driver, I see that I have to implement high level file routines (OPEN, CLOSE, READ, WRITE, FORMAT, etc). Does it mean that I have to implement the filesystem as well? If that's the case, I might choose FAT16 or FAT32 as filesystem and then, transplarently use the SD card both in PC and QL environments. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Miguel Angel Rodriguez Jodar wrote: A proper QDOS driver is still needed. That remainds me of a thing I'd like to know and it's not very clear in the documentation I've read: for a directory device driver, I see that I have to implement high level file routines (OPEN, CLOSE, READ, WRITE, FORMAT, etc). Does it mean that I have to implement the filesystem as well? Unfortunately yes. There is no abstraction layer between hardware and file system. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Unfortunately yes. There is no abstraction layer between hardware and file system. Well... that's not necessarily bad news. That means that I can implement FAT and thus, easing file sharing between PC and QL :) ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Miguel Angel Rodriguez Jodar wrote: Unfortunately yes. There is no abstraction layer between hardware and file system. Well... that's not necessarily bad news. That means that I can implement FAT and thus, easing file sharing between PC and QL :) It was always possible to implement different file systems, SMSQ/E itself comes with FAT12 support built-in for example. A layered approach would just ensure that the file system could easily be shared between hardware drivers. But with the state things are in, everybody has to more or less invent the wheel anew or share the code on a source level only. Cheers, Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 13/06/2012 10:21, thorsten herbert wrote: Seems to be too late now, but this really sounds like a perfect case for Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/ It's a crowd-funding site, people can say hey, I have this cool project and if 100 people pledge to spend 50€ on it, it will be built. If not, no money is lost. Most projects are relatively small, but recently a computer game even pulled in funds of several million dollars this way... Not sure if a QL product can pull it off, but if a phone-soap (that's actually the combination of a phone charger with a UV-lamp for killing germs) can pull in $63.000 of funds, everything seems possible ;-) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/588318042/phonesoap-simultaneously-charge-and-sanitize-your?ref=card Marcel Why not just test the waters? We could do some research of interest using Rich's mailing list (e-mail addresses). After that the project should be placed on Kickstarter in order to collect a certain amount which would may persuade Adrian to pick it up again and finish the project. Nothing to lose ... The research mail should be very simple: Interested in buying for the QL: A) SD Card internal solution B) SD Card ROM Port solution C) nothing. If the outcome should be, as you have put as an example, about 100 people at 50 Euros than this is may enough to go into production (?) Would be interesting to find out if this would work as for other projects the same could be easily done again. T ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm I agree that this is a good idea (although you do have to be careful as to how much money kickstarter take of the 50 euros or whatever and ensure that people are well aware of the amount which will be used as a deposit on their order (ie. not the full 50 euros!) That said, the other alternative would be to get the information and then make an approach to Quanta with a well written business case - Quanta can see the sense of getting a QL-SD interface made in any case, so the business case does not have to say how many people would buy it ! Quanta gives an interest free loan to develop projects (and the loan can be repaid as a fixed amount per card sold), but no-one appears to bother approaching them! This would be cheaper all round than using Kickstarter, or could be used in conjunction with Kickstarter - I did offer to write the business proposal to Quanta for Adrian as I have successfully accessed their funds in the past. As far as I can see, the internal solution is unfortunately a non-starter for several reasons: a) The board needs to use an EPROM on it which contains both the driver and the QL operating system. So far as Adrian and I understand, the QDOS license does not allow it to be distributed with new hardware, so that means either people would have to provide their own QDOS ROMs to be programmed onto the EPROM (or program them themselves), or would have to accept that only Minerva is supplied with the device. Unfortunately, Minerva means that not all of the older software will work easily and it also uses more memory (which is tight if you only have just the QL-SD Interface and a standard QL) - particularly so if you need to use dual screen mode to get the older programs to work! b) The lead between the board in the QL Internal ROM socket and the SD card reader board is also an issue - on some QLs, the noise from the power and TV circuitry behind the microdrives appears to cause interference and stop the QL-SD interface working. The length of the lead is also critical ! Certainly this appears to have been Adrian's experience, where the interface worked on some combinations of QLs and hardware, but not others. The external ROM port solution seems a more sensible way to go as it addresses both issues, but then we are left with someone needing the time to redesign the whole interface (time is Peter's main issue here) -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Rich Mellor wrote, on 13/Jun/12 10:38 | Jun13: On 13/06/2012 10:21, thorsten herbert wrote: Seems to be too late now, but this really sounds like a perfect case for Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/ It's a crowd-funding site, people can say hey, I have this cool project and if 100 people pledge to spend 50€ on it, it will be built. If not, no money is lost. Most projects are relatively small, but recently a computer game even pulled in funds of several million dollars this way... Not sure if a QL product can pull it off, but if a phone-soap (that's actually the combination of a phone charger with a UV-lamp for killing germs) can pull in $63.000 of funds, everything seems possible ;-) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/588318042/phonesoap-simultaneously-charge-and-sanitize-your?ref=card Marcel Why not just test the waters? We could do some research of interest using Rich's mailing list (e-mail addresses). After that the project should be placed on Kickstarter in order to collect a certain amount which would may persuade Adrian to pick it up again and finish the project. Nothing to lose ... The research mail should be very simple: Interested in buying for the QL: A) SD Card internal solution B) SD Card ROM Port solution C) nothing. If the outcome should be, as you have put as an example, about 100 people at 50 Euros than this is may enough to go into production (?) Would be interesting to find out if this would work as for other projects the same could be easily done again. T ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm I agree that this is a good idea (although you do have to be careful as to how much money kickstarter take of the 50 euros or whatever and ensure that people are well aware of the amount which will be used as a deposit on their order (ie. not the full 50 euros!) That said, the other alternative would be to get the information and then make an approach to Quanta with a well written business case - Quanta can see the sense of getting a QL-SD interface made in any case, so the business case does not have to say how many people would buy it ! Quanta gives an interest free loan to develop projects (and the loan can be repaid as a fixed amount per card sold), but no-one appears to bother approaching them! This would be cheaper all round than using Kickstarter, or could be used in conjunction with Kickstarter - I did offer to write the business proposal to Quanta for Adrian as I have successfully accessed their funds in the past. As far as I can see, the internal solution is unfortunately a non-starter for several reasons: a) The board needs to use an EPROM on it which contains both the driver and the QL operating system. So far as Adrian and I understand, the QDOS license does not allow it to be distributed with new hardware, so that means either people would have to provide their own QDOS ROMs to be programmed onto the EPROM (or program them themselves), or would have to accept that only Minerva is supplied with the device. Unfortunately, Minerva means that not all of the older software will work easily and it also uses more memory (which is tight if you only have just the QL-SD Interface and a standard QL) - particularly so if you need to use dual screen mode to get the older programs to work! b) The lead between the board in the QL Internal ROM socket and the SD card reader board is also an issue - on some QLs, the noise from the power and TV circuitry behind the microdrives appears to cause interference and stop the QL-SD interface working. The length of the lead is also critical ! Certainly this appears to have been Adrian's experience, where the interface worked on some combinations of QLs and hardware, but not others. Why not use a coax cable with the shield grounded. The external ROM port solution seems a more sensible way to go as it addresses both issues, but then we are left with someone needing the time to redesign the whole interface (time is Peter's main issue here) I must say the external ROM solution is the neatest. Peter's design though is very elegant form what I have seen. It would also mean Romdisq couldn't be used at the same time. This would be fine if the ROM SD card was bootable. It would mean Romdisq was not needed. Tony -- t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 13/06/2012 11:12, thorsten herbert wrote: The external ROM port solution seems a more sensible way to go as it addresses both issues, but then we are left with someone needing the time to redesign the whole interface (time is Peter's main issue here) Can this be may of use? It was published on the spanish QBlog.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78xtsEKW4Lw T ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm That is another QL-SD project which I don't recall ever hearing about. Interestingly it looks as though the driver is only 4K !! I have emailed Miguel directly to see where he is with this. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 11/06/2012 16:56, Dilwyn Jones wrote: I think the key advantage for an SD-card project is something Urs already said years ago, that it might appeal to computer collectors. These are not terribly interested in the QL per se but might pay something if it enables them to transfer files to one of their collector items without too much pain. And this group is potentially much larger than the QL community itself, I guess. Though I'm not sure if a small and self-contained ROM dongle might be a bit better suited for these people, as this is probably preferable to opening the box and breaking the keyboard membrane in the process ;-) Ideally both forms could be supported with the same drivers and only little hardware changes. Marcel I agree. Whatever of the two forms it takes, this has the potential to be THE QL mass storage device. No need for Qubide and external hard disk for example. No need for floppy drives most of the time (apart from transferring stuff from original floppies). Plug in the Gold Card/Trump Card/whatever just for expanded memory, for example. A self-contained mass-storage unit with removable media (i.e. SD cards) would give the good old black box a new lease of life and of course there's always the possibilities of using the SD card for file transfer between QL and other computers where the filing system permits. So this is potentially good for existing users and retro computer collectors. I hope Peter manages to find someone to make it available. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm It is just a shame that there was not all this enthusiasm and discussion some months ago when Adrian needed to see some interest in the QL-SD Interface. Personally, I think that an internally fitted option is a non-starter - collectors want to keep the QL as original as possible, but still have a simple means of getting software onto the computer and using it - I still get orders for people wanting software on microdrive cartridge - but I normally go through 15-20 cartridges to make a good copy, only to find that the felt pad drops off in the post, or wears away after the customer has used it 10 times... At the moment, with very few disk and memory interfaces on the second hand market (I have just a Trump Card and a Super Gold Card and need the Trump Card!), people are left with no viable alternatives. A nice easy solution which plugged into the QL ROM port would be ideal for these collectors and many users - including a lot of the Quanta members (although they may then need a means of acquiring extra memory!). Finance for projects is readily available - both through myself and Quanta It is more to do with the time needed by Peter if he is to redesign the project to work in the QL ROM port and overcome some of the issues. As to whether it is viable commercially, who was it that said 'Build it and they will come' ? I certainly have a number of customers wanting some form of storage solution - be it a disk drive + interface, SD interface, or a RomDisq. I have to draw parallels here with the ZXpand interface for the ZX81 - admittedly there was an upsurge in interest because of its 30th anniversary (we need to start on plans for something to celebrate the QL's 30th anniversary ), however, the original designer was planning to build 20-25 interfaces and sell them just for the cost of the parts. Although there were not even 20 people who had expressed an interest, following discussions, we decided to get 150 units made, and sell them commercially - and are now just starting to get the next batch of 200 interfaces made (having sold out). The original designer has made a nice little profit on his efforts and it has inspired him to create more hardware for the ZX81 (an AY sound and joystick module) which has similarly sold well. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Morning all, On 12/06/12 09:58, Rich Mellor wrote: It is just a shame that there was not all this enthusiasm and discussion some months ago when Adrian needed to see some interest in the QL-SD Interface. Agreed. I think it's truly wonderful that people are still putting effort and time and money (too many ands, not enough commas!) into hardware for the old QL. Unfortunately, what is the ratio of people using QLs as opposed to emulators or even QXL cards (anyone still running one?) While an SD drive would have been a brilliant addition to a QL, it's hardly of use on an emulator on a PC. Don't get me wrong, I'm not peeing on anyone's chips here (to use one of my wife's Yorkshire expressions!), Adrian, Dave, Nasta etc are to be admired and encouraged for their efforts - unfortunately, we live in a country/world where encouragement is not really, ahem, encouraged. Personally, I think that an internally fitted option is a non-starter - collectors want to keep the QL as original as possible, but still have a simple means of getting software onto the computer and using it Agreed. What use is an old QL if it doesn't have loads of cables and extensions hanging off of and out of every orifice? Mine used to have Trump Card or Gold Card, Miracle Hard Drive, Miracle Serial to Parallel converter, and a mouse hanging off the other serial port. With the Gold Card I had the 4 drive expander card, a pair of HD floppy drives and a pair of ED floppy drives. And for my Quanta sub-librarian duties, I also had a 5.25 floppy drive for the people needing software on that. Not to mention my Star LC10 Colour printer. There was no room for me on the computer table - thank god I didn't have a separate keyboard! Something to fit internally would have been great - in my case! ... As to whether it is viable commercially, who was it that said 'Build it and they will come' ? Henry Ford? ... I have to draw parallels here with the ZXpand interface for the ZX81 - Hmmm. Ok, I loved my ZX-81 and I wish I still had it. But, how many ZX-81s sold compared to QLs? It's all down to numbers I'm afraid. If yo have 20 million of one and 75 thousand of another, which are you going to target with a commercial offering? (Those numbers are grabbed out of the air and bear no resemblance to anything accurate, by the way.) admittedly there was an upsurge in interest because of its 30th anniversary (we need to start on plans for something to celebrate the QL's 30th anniversary ), Already? (2014 i think!) - it was only half an hour ago it was the QL is 21! Time flies. (Which is its job after all!) however, the original designer was planning to build 20-25 interfaces and sell them just for the cost of the parts. A hobby then, not really a commercial interest. Although there were not even 20 people who had expressed an interest, following discussions, we decided to get 150 units made, and sell them commercially - and are now just starting to get the next batch of 200 interfaces made (having sold out). The original designer has made a nice little profit on his efforts and it has inspired him to create more hardware for the ZX81 (an AY sound and joystick module) which has similarly sold well. This is a good thing, but I'm not so sure it would work in the QL realm, due to numbers of original sales, and comparing physical QLs still in use with those that are in use on assorted emulators on PCs and Macs. Just my £0.02. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 12/06/2012 10:29, Norman Dunbar wrote: Morning all, On 12/06/12 09:58, Rich Mellor wrote: It is just a shame that there was not all this enthusiasm and discussion some months ago when Adrian needed to see some interest in the QL-SD Interface. Agreed. I think it's truly wonderful that people are still putting effort and time and money (too many ands, not enough commas!) into hardware for the old QL. Unfortunately, what is the ratio of people using QLs as opposed to emulators or even QXL cards (anyone still running one?) While an SD drive would have been a brilliant addition to a QL, it's hardly of use on an emulator on a PC. Don't get me wrong, I'm not peeing on anyone's chips here (to use one of my wife's Yorkshire expressions!), Adrian, Dave, Nasta etc are to be admired and encouraged for their efforts - unfortunately, we live in a country/world where encouragement is not really, ahem, encouraged. Personally, I think that an internally fitted option is a non-starter - collectors want to keep the QL as original as possible, but still have a simple means of getting software onto the computer and using it Agreed. What use is an old QL if it doesn't have loads of cables and extensions hanging off of and out of every orifice? Mine used to have Trump Card or Gold Card, Miracle Hard Drive, Miracle Serial to Parallel converter, and a mouse hanging off the other serial port. With the Gold Card I had the 4 drive expander card, a pair of HD floppy drives and a pair of ED floppy drives. And for my Quanta sub-librarian duties, I also had a 5.25 floppy drive for the people needing software on that. Not to mention my Star LC10 Colour printer. There was no room for me on the computer table - thank god I didn't have a separate keyboard! Something to fit internally would have been great - in my case! ... As to whether it is viable commercially, who was it that said 'Build it and they will come' ? Henry Ford? ... I have to draw parallels here with the ZXpand interface for the ZX81 - Hmmm. Ok, I loved my ZX-81 and I wish I still had it. But, how many ZX-81s sold compared to QLs? It's all down to numbers I'm afraid. If yo have 20 million of one and 75 thousand of another, which are you going to target with a commercial offering? (Those numbers are grabbed out of the air and bear no resemblance to anything accurate, by the way.) admittedly there was an upsurge in interest because of its 30th anniversary (we need to start on plans for something to celebrate the QL's 30th anniversary ), Already? (2014 i think!) - it was only half an hour ago it was the QL is 21! Time flies. (Which is its job after all!) however, the original designer was planning to build 20-25 interfaces and sell them just for the cost of the parts. A hobby then, not really a commercial interest. Although there were not even 20 people who had expressed an interest, following discussions, we decided to get 150 units made, and sell them commercially - and are now just starting to get the next batch of 200 interfaces made (having sold out). The original designer has made a nice little profit on his efforts and it has inspired him to create more hardware for the ZX81 (an AY sound and joystick module) which has similarly sold well. This is a good thing, but I'm not so sure it would work in the QL realm, due to numbers of original sales, and comparing physical QLs still in use with those that are in use on assorted emulators on PCs and Macs. Just my £0.02. Cheers, Norm. I agree that there were more ZX81s made than QLs but I wonder how many ZX81 are now used as door stops Just some figures to help people realise the potential of the QL Market... I have sold 540 + QL keyboard membranes since 2008 ( I think that's when I started!) - other companies also sell membranes, so I don't know what their figures are... I have 1227 customers who have purchased something QL related from me over the years (with 1028 current email addresses) Compare this to the ZX81, where I have sold over 1050 ZX81 keyboard membranes since 2009 (although I am the only company who gets these made) I have 722 customers who have purchased something ZX81 related from me over the years (with 708 current email addresses) That suggests 1 in 5 ZX81 customers have purchased a ZXpand interface - so if we said 1 in 20 QL customers wanted a QL-SD interface, that would still equate to 50 interfaces being sold! It just goes to show that if you find the right product, the market is out there! -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 12/06/2012 09:58, Rich Mellor wrote: On 11/06/2012 16:56, Dilwyn Jones wrote: I think the key advantage for an SD-card project is something Urs already said years ago, that it might appeal to computer collectors. These are not terribly interested in the QL per se but might pay something if it enables them to transfer files to one of their collector items without too much pain. And this group is potentially much larger than the QL community itself, I guess. Though I'm not sure if a small and self-contained ROM dongle might be a bit better suited for these people, as this is probably preferable to opening the box and breaking the keyboard membrane in the process ;-) Ideally both forms could be supported with the same drivers and only little hardware changes. Marcel I agree. Whatever of the two forms it takes, this has the potential to be THE QL mass storage device. No need for Qubide and external hard disk for example. No need for floppy drives most of the time (apart from transferring stuff from original floppies). Plug in the Gold Card/Trump Card/whatever just for expanded memory, for example. A self-contained mass-storage unit with removable media (i.e. SD cards) would give the good old black box a new lease of life and of course there's always the possibilities of using the SD card for file transfer between QL and other computers where the filing system permits. So this is potentially good for existing users and retro computer collectors. I hope Peter manages to find someone to make it available. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm It is just a shame that there was not all this enthusiasm and discussion some months ago when Adrian needed to see some interest in the QL-SD Interface. Personally, I think that an internally fitted option is a non-starter - collectors want to keep the QL as original as possible, but still have a simple means of getting software onto the computer and using it - I still get orders for people wanting software on microdrive cartridge - but I normally go through 15-20 cartridges to make a good copy, only to find that the felt pad drops off in the post, or wears away after the customer has used it 10 times... At the moment, with very few disk and memory interfaces on the second hand market (I have just a Trump Card and a Super Gold Card and need the Trump Card!), people are left with no viable alternatives. A nice easy solution which plugged into the QL ROM port would be ideal for these collectors and many users - including a lot of the Quanta members (although they may then need a means of acquiring extra memory!). I understand the reasoning, Rich, but my ROM port is already taken by a ROMDISK ; it would need a through port. Bryan H Finance for projects is readily available - both through myself and Quanta It is more to do with the time needed by Peter if he is to redesign the project to work in the QL ROM port and overcome some of the issues. As to whether it is viable commercially, who was it that said 'Build it and they will come' ? I certainly have a number of customers wanting some form of storage solution - be it a disk drive + interface, SD interface, or a RomDisq. I have to draw parallels here with the ZXpand interface for the ZX81 - admittedly there was an upsurge in interest because of its 30th anniversary (we need to start on plans for something to celebrate the QL's 30th anniversary ), however, the original designer was planning to build 20-25 interfaces and sell them just for the cost of the parts. Although there were not even 20 people who had expressed an interest, following discussions, we decided to get 150 units made, and sell them commercially - and are now just starting to get the next batch of 200 interfaces made (having sold out). The original designer has made a nice little profit on his efforts and it has inspired him to create more hardware for the ZX81 (an AY sound and joystick module) which has similarly sold well. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Adrian Ives wrote: I am sorry to announce that I have taken the decision to withdraw from developing QL hardware. In the current economic climate, it is no longer practical to devote resources to such a small (almost non-existent) market, and I need to concentrate my energies elsewhere. Sad news! Unfortunately this means that I have withdrawn from the QL-SD project. I understand that Peter is talking with other parties who may be more able to bring the QL-SD to market. I wish them all the best and will make available the source code for the already written drivers to allow this to happen as painlessly as possible. I was very optimistic that QL-SD will become available this year. Thank you to the few people who have expressed a genuine interest in new QL hardware. I wish you all the best for your future projects. Urs ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
It's a bit of an over-simplification to lay the reasoning for my decision to withdraw solely on the lack of interest. It has more to do with simple economics. It costs money to buy the stock to build the units. As I have said before about the Ser-USB, unless the stock can be bought in bulk, it is not possible to obtain worthwhile discounts. This makes the product more expensive and thus reduces the likely number of sales. Add to that a severely depressed economy and the continued mismanagement of the Euro crisis, which further depresses any market from continental Europe, and you have a pretty dire situation. Almost a perfect storm, in fact. I wish I could afford to do this as a hobby, but I can't. I considered a number of ways of moving it forward, including seeking funding from Quanta (banks in the UK don't lend to small businesses any more, so that route is closed and, anyway, what kind of a business case is it to say Two or three people have said that they will buy one and then, when other people know they are available, a lot more people will buy them?). In the end, and to be absolutely blunt about it, it simply wasn't worth the effort required for the small return. But the root cause of this is that there are significantly less QLs in circulation than ZX81s or Spectrums. It always was a niche machine and, even in today's more retro-friendly environment, it is a minor player. This is a great shame but it is a true and unavoidable fact and it will always influence decisions about resourcing new projects for it. Anyway ... sometime back in this thread I remember reading a question about the state of the drivers. As far as I am concerned they are good enough to be released into production, but that is up to Peter, or whoever takes the QL-SD forward. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com On 12/06/2012 09:58, Rich Mellor wrote: It is just a shame that there was not all this enthusiasm and discussion some months ago when Adrian needed to see some interest in the QL-SD Interface. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Adrian Ives wrote: It's a bit of an over-simplification to lay the reasoning for my decision to withdraw solely on the lack of interest. It has more to do with simple economics. It costs money to buy the stock to build the units. As I have said before about the Ser-USB, unless the stock can be bought in bulk, it is not possible to obtain worthwhile discounts. This makes the product more expensive and thus reduces the likely number of sales. Seems to be too late now, but this really sounds like a perfect case for Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/ It's a crowd-funding site, people can say hey, I have this cool project and if 100 people pledge to spend 50€ on it, it will be built. If not, no money is lost. Most projects are relatively small, but recently a computer game even pulled in funds of several million dollars this way... Not sure if a QL product can pull it off, but if a phone-soap (that's actually the combination of a phone charger with a UV-lamp for killing germs) can pull in $63.000 of funds, everything seems possible ;-) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/588318042/phonesoap-simultaneously-charge-and-sanitize-your?ref=card Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Adrian Ives wrote: I have sent the most recent sources to Peter Graf just a few minutes ago. The code may be placed in the public domain, but it is up to Peter how he wishes to move forward with it. I regret that I cannot offer any support with the drivers as I am moving on to other projects, but the code is very well documented. Just curious, what is left to do? It's a bit of a pity because while the Ser-USB was a none starter for me because of the painfully slow serial ports a faster and integrated solution like QL-SD project did have some appeal, even for me (depending on the price of course). Of course, no idea if any hardware development for the QL could ever be commercially successfully nowadays, but it might have made for a nice KickStarter project to gauge real interest. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Marcel Kilgus ql-us...@mail.kilgus.net wrote: Adrian Ives wrote: I have sent the most recent sources to Peter Graf just a few minutes ago. The code may be placed in the public domain, but it is up to Peter how he wishes to move forward with it. I regret that I cannot offer any support with the drivers as I am moving on to other projects, but the code is very well documented. Just curious, what is left to do? It's a bit of a pity because while the Ser-USB was a none starter for me because of the painfully slow serial ports a faster and integrated solution like QL-SD project did have some appeal, even for me (depending on the price of course). Of course, no idea if any hardware development for the QL could ever be commercially successfully nowadays, but it might have made for a nice KickStarter project to gauge real interest. Marcel Having worked it out myself for my own projects, I know they'd never be commercially successful but I also know I don't have a business to run and overheads, so for companies like Memory Lane, it's even harder. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but it does mean someone's going to be investing more than they could possibly make. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Dave Park wrote: Of course, no idea if any hardware development for the QL could ever be commercially successfully nowadays, but it might have made for a nice KickStarter project to gauge real interest. Having worked it out myself for my own projects, I know they'd never be commercially successful but I also know I don't have a business to run and overheads, so for companies like Memory Lane, it's even harder. I think the key advantage for an SD-card project is something Urs already said years ago, that it might appeal to computer collectors. These are not terribly interested in the QL per se but might pay something if it enables them to transfer files to one of their collector items without too much pain. And this group is potentially much larger than the QL community itself, I guess. Though I'm not sure if a small and self-contained ROM dongle might be a bit better suited for these people, as this is probably preferable to opening the box and breaking the keyboard membrane in the process ;-) Ideally both forms could be supported with the same drivers and only little hardware changes. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
I think the key advantage for an SD-card project is something Urs already said years ago, that it might appeal to computer collectors. These are not terribly interested in the QL per se but might pay something if it enables them to transfer files to one of their collector items without too much pain. And this group is potentially much larger than the QL community itself, I guess. Though I'm not sure if a small and self-contained ROM dongle might be a bit better suited for these people, as this is probably preferable to opening the box and breaking the keyboard membrane in the process ;-) Ideally both forms could be supported with the same drivers and only little hardware changes. Marcel I agree. Whatever of the two forms it takes, this has the potential to be THE QL mass storage device. No need for Qubide and external hard disk for example. No need for floppy drives most of the time (apart from transferring stuff from original floppies). Plug in the Gold Card/Trump Card/whatever just for expanded memory, for example. A self-contained mass-storage unit with removable media (i.e. SD cards) would give the good old black box a new lease of life and of course there's always the possibilities of using the SD card for file transfer between QL and other computers where the filing system permits. So this is potentially good for existing users and retro computer collectors. I hope Peter manages to find someone to make it available. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
Dave, I've no problem with doing that but right now I don't have the time to take it forward. I will put the schematics and code online just as soon as I can get around to it ... but it won't be anytime soon. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com On 10/06/2012 03:42, Dave Park wrote: Adrian, I know it's a tough decision, but it was one you needed to make. Would you consider open-sourcing Q-BUS and seeing what the community does with it? Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On 09/06/2012 18:16, Adrian Ives wrote: I am sorry to announce that I have taken the decision to withdraw from developing QL hardware. In the current economic climate, it is no longer practical to devote resources to such a small (almost non-existent) market, and I need to concentrate my energies elsewhere. Unfortunately this means that I have withdrawn from the QL-SD project. I understand that Peter is talking with other parties who may be more able to bring the QL-SD to market. I wish them all the best and will make available the source code for the already written drivers to allow this to happen as painlessly as possible. Plans for Q-BUS have also been shelved. Thank you to the few people who have expressed a genuine interest in new QL hardware. This is truly a shame - I don't know whether there will be anyone willing to step forward to finish the QL-SD Project now as there does not appear anyone interested in making hardware for the QL - compare that to the ZX81 and the ZX Spectrum. It seems Adrian has fallen the way of so many people who look to build items for retro computers - there is just general apathy, in that if you announce a project, hardly anyone contacts you to express their support - however, once there is a viable product on the market, then people become more interested. The ZXpand for the ZX81 was discussed by maybe 6 people people whilst in the design stage - but once available, we have sold over 150 units in 18 months ! Hopefully, the source code for the drivers will be made available as soon as possible - as this is at least some of the important side of things. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
I have sent the most recent sources to Peter Graf just a few minutes ago. The code may be placed in the public domain, but it is up to Peter how he wishes to move forward with it. I regret that I cannot offer any support with the drivers as I am moving on to other projects, but the code is very well documented. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com On 10/06/2012 11:23, Rich Mellor wrote: Hopefully, the source code for the drivers will be made available as soon as possible - as this is at least some of the important side of things. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
In message 4fd3850a.5090...@memorylanecomputing.com, Adrian Ives adrian.i...@memorylanecomputing.com writes I am sorry to announce that I have taken the decision to withdraw from developing QL hardware. In the current economic climate, it is no longer practical to devote resources to such a small (almost non-existent) market, and I need to concentrate my energies elsewhere. Unfortunately this means that I have withdrawn from the QL-SD project. I understand that Peter is talking with other parties who may be more able to bring the QL-SD to market. I wish them all the best and will make available the source code for the already written drivers to allow this to happen as painlessly as possible. Plans for Q-BUS have also been shelved. Thank you to the few people who have expressed a genuine interest in new QL hardware. Hi Adrian, Sorry to hear your news. I would be interested in any existing hardware still left for the Ser-USB project, prior to the QL-SD. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawing from the QL Market
On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Adrian Ives adrian.i...@memorylanecomputing.com wrote: I am sorry to announce that I have taken the decision to withdraw from developing QL hardware. In the current economic climate, it is no longer practical to devote resources to such a small (almost non-existent) market, and I need to concentrate my energies elsewhere. Unfortunately this means that I have withdrawn from the QL-SD project. I understand that Peter is talking with other parties who may be more able to bring the QL-SD to market. I wish them all the best and will make available the source code for the already written drivers to allow this to happen as painlessly as possible. Plans for Q-BUS have also been shelved. Thank you to the few people who have expressed a genuine interest in new QL hardware. Adrian, I know it's a tough decision, but it was one you needed to make. Would you consider open-sourcing Q-BUS and seeing what the community does with it? Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
