Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
- Original Message - From: Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor SNIP, SNIP [Geoff Wicks for Quanta chairman or editor if he retires from trading, now that Robin Barker is stepping down!!!] er hem, Sorry you are out of order, or rather out of time, Dilwyn! Read your QUANTA constitution better next time! Seriously, I know what the new QUANTA committee will look like, subject to AGM approval, and I think it will prove to be a good committee. Geoff Wicks
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Bill Waugh wrote: - Original Message - From: Dave P [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ql-users [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Marcel Kilgus wrote: This puts the seemingly massive current SMSQ/E for QPC in perspective (currently at 287kb. However, last version for QPC1 was 191kb big! A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). Does anyone remember what was originally intended to occupy the 32768-65535 space? Was that all meant to be available for ROM expansion? 0-32767 (-7FFF) - system ROM (original intent?) 32768-49151 (8000-BFFF) - extra system ROM (see below) 49152-65535 (C000-) - expansion ROM (socket at back) I was under the impression that they did actually try to fit the OS into 32K for the simple reason that they could use short form of addressing (using 16 bit addresses as opposed to 32 bit; addresses range -32768 to +32767). What I always wondered was, that if they were going for 32K to be able to use short forms of addressing, why they didn't split the OS and language a la the BBC micro and put the OS into the bottom 32K of memory and the language into the top 32k of memory (address range -32768 to -1); or would this have needlessly complicated the address decoding? Then either allow 32K for language, or split it 16+16 for language/expansion ROM. Second screen ? second screen is at 163840-196607 (18000-1); with system variables starting at 163840 (18000)! wrt SuperBASIC, from what I remember, only enough commands were supposed to be included in the ROM to allow it, or other jobs, to be loaded.
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Robert Newson wrote: ... second screen is at 163840-196607 (18000-1); with system variables starting at 163840 (18000)! oops...can't convert this early in the morning...meant 28000-2
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
Notably because of all your work, Marcel. Thank's for all your contributions. Claude -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Marcel Kilgus Envoyé : mardi 3 février 2004 21:17 À : ql-users Objet : Re: [ql-users] CST Thor (...) A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). Marcel
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
At launch, in France, advertising was : 32k ROM (I still have proof) -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Tony Firshman Envoyé : mardi 3 février 2004 22:11 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: [ql-users] CST Thor That is wrong Tarquin. The QL internal ROM space has always been 48k. The original couldn't ...
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
My first QL was 32k with 16k wart sticking out the back. Claude Mourier 00 wrote: At launch, in France, advertising was : 32k ROM (I still have proof) -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Tony Firshman Envoyé : mardi 3 février 2004 22:11 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: [ql-users] CST Thor That is wrong Tarquin. The QL internal ROM space has always been 48k. The original couldn't ...
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
He also gave a good front end for everything, which was very much on a par with Windows 3.x Was this the ICE environment I've seen mentioned with the Thor? I haven't found anything on the web about this yet, but then I suppose google isn't 'the web' yet :) ICE was an Icon Controlled Environment from a company called Eidersoft, who were big in the early days of the QL. I think (might be wrong here) that it was the work of a guy called David Jones. ICE was used with the Eidersoft mouse system, a custom mouse system which I think was only useable with Eidersoft software. If you could gett it to work, it was pretty good in fact as some of the early software went, but it didn't last long and not much software specifically supported it. There have been several attempts at GUI's of some form for the QL over the years, some better than others it has to be said. Some were not really GUI's in the same sense as say Windows and the front end systems on other computers and OSes, but were more like simple 'Task Swappers' which let you switch between programs and saved and restored screen displays and so on. When Tony Tebby's pointer environment systems came along this improved matters drastically, screen handling improved, task swapping became easier and more automated, it even helped with true multitasking (as distinct from simple task swapping where you suspend one program and switch to another). Real multitasking lets several programs get on with things at the same time, on-screen clocks can run at the same time as you are typing into a word processor at the same time as a CAPS LOCK program is showing on the screen at the same time as something else is printing in the background at the same time as a spreadsheet is doing a major recalculation...the only thing you couldn't realistically do was copy files at the same time as running something else. Of course, front end systems are now a bit more realistic on the QL. Since we now have high colour systems (8-bit and 16-bit colour) on selected QL systems, we are all sat back waiting for Jim Hunkins's QDT (hi Jim, still playing with your QDT stateside???) to make our systems right for the 21st century. Of course, while we wait for Jim, we have to make do with a tatty Welsh effort called Launchpad (plug plug, demo version on my website, plug plug) ;-) And to prevent boredom waiting for QDT, you could always subscribe to QL Today magazine (plug plug again). [Geoff Wicks for Quanta chairman or editor if he retires from trading, now that Robin Barker is stepping down!!!] -- Dilwyn Jones
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 15:42:59, Witchy wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Hi folks, I found this list after googling for David Oliver and CST, who hopefully some of you will remember produced the Thor range of machines. Having got my paws on what I think used to be a working Thor WF2 (before someone removed the hard drive) the other week I'm trying to find any info I can on both the machine and CST themselves for my museum - URL is in my sig. So far all I've got is that CST was started by David Oliver and Graham Priestley after they left Torch in maybe 1986 and that they produced maybe 6 or 7 different Thors from the F1 through to the XVI workstations. All info much appreciated :) That reminds me! I have been out of the country for a while, and I promised you I would look up info I have. I haven't forgotten, but am very busy this week. I will have a go this weekend. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Witchy wrote: I found this list after googling for David Oliver and CST, who hopefully some of you will remember produced the Thor range of machines. Having got my paws on what I think used to be a working Thor WF2 (before someone removed the hard drive) the other week I'm trying to find any info I can on both the machine and CST themselves for my museum - URL is in my sig. Nice page you have there. Just allow me a few comments to the QL section: and the multitasking wasn't really 'multi' because background tasks were paused. Not true. All tasks have always worked in parallel. With the advent of the pointer environment tasks could get stopped if they wanted to do something on the screen while their window was buried, but that's it. In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. and a database who's name escapes me for now. Archive. Even to this day there are fans of the QL producing extra software for it, there's an enhanced OS called Medusa, You probably mean Minerva here, never heard of Medusa before (QL related, that is). The most advanced offspring (like Minerva not based on actual QDOS code but rewritten) that is still being developed even today (I know that because I did most of the recent developments ;-) ) is called SMSQ/E by the way. It runs on multiple platforms and even still on enhanced QLs (with 68000 or 68020 extension board). Unfortunately I can't give you any info on the Thor, though. Marcel
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
Hi Marcel, Thanks for the corrections :) I'll update the page now. Cheers, W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcel Kilgus Sent: 03 February 2004 17:55 To: ql-users Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor Witchy wrote: I found this list after googling for David Oliver and CST, who hopefully some of you will remember produced the Thor range of machines. Having got my paws on what I think used to be a working Thor WF2 (before someone removed the hard drive) the other week I'm trying to find any info I can on both the machine and CST themselves for my museum - URL is in my sig. Nice page you have there. Just allow me a few comments to the QL section: and the multitasking wasn't really 'multi' because background tasks were paused. Not true. All tasks have always worked in parallel. With the advent of the pointer environment tasks could get stopped if they wanted to do something on the screen while their window was buried, but that's it. In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. and a database who's name escapes me for now. Archive. Even to this day there are fans of the QL producing extra software for it, there's an enhanced OS called Medusa, You probably mean Minerva here, never heard of Medusa before (QL related, that is). The most advanced offspring (like Minerva not based on actual QDOS code but rewritten) that is still being developed even today (I know that because I did most of the recent developments ;-) ) is called SMSQ/E by the way. It runs on multiple platforms and even still on enhanced QLs (with 68000 or 68020 extension board). Unfortunately I can't give you any info on the Thor, though. Marcel
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Marcel Kilgus wrote: In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. no 32K, 48K=32K ROMs+16K Kludge later 48K ROMs -- Tarquin Mills ACCUS (Anglia Classic Computer Users Society) http://speccyverse.homedns.org/planet14/comp/accus/
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 18:54:54, Marcel Kilgus wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Witchy wrote: I found this list after googling for David Oliver and CST, who hopefully some of you will remember produced the Thor range of machines. Having got my paws on what I think used to be a working Thor WF2 (before someone removed the hard drive) the other week I'm trying to find any info I can on both the machine and CST themselves for my museum - URL is in my sig. Nice page you have there. Just allow me a few comments to the QL section: and the multitasking wasn't really 'multi' because background tasks were paused. Not true. All tasks have always worked in parallel. With the advent of the pointer environment tasks could get stopped if they wanted to do something on the screen while their window was buried, but that's it. ... but there is an extension (pie?) that allowed background windows to update without pausing the programs. The QL multitasking since then has been 'real'. Maybe he is confusing the QL with task swapping on a 386/486 PC (8-)# In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. yes, 48k - and not just superbasic - the whole O/S. This was the great thing about the QL. It was ready to go without having to load the O/S from file, with a full basic supported command line. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Tarquin Mills wrote: In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. no 32K, 48K=32K ROMs+16K Kludge later 48K ROMs Hm, right, sorry for the confusion. I always thought that they added a 16kb rom to bring the total up to 64kb and later managed to change the code to fit into 48kb. I didn't think anyone would even try to squeeze the whole of QDOS/SuperBasic into 32kb... Marcel
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
I didn't think anyone would even try to squeeze the whole of QDOS/SuperBasic into 32kb... IIRC only the QDOS had to go into 32 kb. Superbasic was supposed to be loaeded from microdrives. Arnould
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Tony Firshman wrote: 48K. yes, 48k - and not just superbasic - the whole O/S. This was the great thing about the QL. Yes, amazing. But still you've always needed more than that to gain a really usable system. Space for WIN driver, FLP driver, maybe RAM disc, the whole extended environment and of course TK2! This puts the seemingly massive current SMSQ/E for QPC in perspective (currently at 287kb. However, last version for QPC1 was 191kb big! A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). Marcel
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Marcel Kilgus wrote: This puts the seemingly massive current SMSQ/E for QPC in perspective (currently at 287kb. However, last version for QPC1 was 191kb big! A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). Does anyone remember what was originally intended to occupy the 32768-65535 space? Was that all meant to be available for ROM expansion? Or was some of it intended for some other use? Dave
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Firshman Sent: 03 February 2004 19:42 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor windows to update without pausing the programs. The QL multitasking since then has been 'real'. Maybe he is confusing the QL with task swapping on a 386/486 PC (8-)# Pffft :-) Because I don't know the full ins and outs of any of the machines I've got (other than as a user) I have to rely on what people tell me or what I read on the web..somewhere out there is a QL document that says the multi-tasking wasn't 'real'. I can always fire up the QL that's a couple of feet away from me and try it for myself :) Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 19:06:40, Tarquin Mills wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Marcel Kilgus wrote: In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. no 32K, 48K=32K ROMs+16K Kludge later 48K ROMs That is wrong Tarquin. The QL internal ROM space has always been 48k. The original couldn't fit in that, so they fitted the overflow in an external ROM (dongle) plugged into the ROM slot. This was a very nice ROM board made by Sinclair that in fact had space for two eproms. I use one of these (with one chip) to test QLs. Very soon they added the extra 16k internally with piggy backed chips, but that disabled the ROM slot. Interestingly the pcb has always catered for a mix of internal rom size /rom slot. There are jumper slots on the issue 5 pcb - the std has three resistor like components (one black bar === 0 ohms). All these QLs had to be returned to Sinclair when the ROM fitted in 48k. I returned my original QL, but Parcel Farce (then part of Royal Mail) lost it. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 21:04:33, Marcel Kilgus wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Tarquin Mills wrote: In true Sinclair style it was marketed long before it was ready, resulting in initial shipments needing an extra ROM 'dongle' out the back because they couldn't fit SuperBASIC into (I think) 32K. 48K. no 32K, 48K=32K ROMs+16K Kludge later 48K ROMs Hm, right, sorry for the confusion. I always thought that they added a 16kb rom to bring the total up to 64kb and later managed to change the code to fit into 48kb. I didn't think anyone would even try to squeeze the whole of QDOS/SuperBasic into 32kb... You are not worng Marcel. The std internal QL space has always been 48k. Minerva uses a 64k Eprom, with 48k code space. I do a version of Minerva that can fill the remaining 16k with ROM. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 20:49:14, Witchy wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Firshman Sent: 03 February 2004 19:42 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor windows to update without pausing the programs. The QL multitasking since then has been 'real'. Maybe he is confusing the QL with task swapping on a 386/486 PC (8-)# Pffft :-) Because I don't know the full ins and outs of any of the machines I've got (other than as a user) I have to rely on what people tell me or what I read on the web..somewhere out there is a QL document that says the multi-tasking wasn't 'real'. What do you define as 'real'. I haven't seen such a document. It had pre-emptive multi tasking with processor support. The only thing it couldn't do was manage screen refresh. However it was unusable in practise as all the Psion programs ate all memory when they loaded. There were poor attempts at writing code to get around this, but the first real workable multitasking system came with QRAM (and the pointer environment) from Tony Tebby (Qjump). He didn't handle the issue of allowing buried jobs to continue to write to screen (PIE did that later), but he preserved all windows, and refreshed when they came to the top. When memory became short (often in the pre-Gold Card days) you could see him using the 32k screen area as a working space! The really clever part though was that he gave a restricted working environment for the Psion 4. He did this by the simple method of reserving all memory (temporarily using ALCHP I assume) except that defined for the Psion program. Once loaded, the memory was released. He also gave a good front end for everything, which was very much on a par with Windows 3.x This was the very first time the full power of the QL was able to be used. I can always fire up the QL that's a couple of feet away from me and try it for myself :) Please do (8-)# -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 21:17:08, Marcel Kilgus wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Tony Firshman wrote: 48K. yes, 48k - and not just superbasic - the whole O/S. This was the great thing about the QL. Yes, amazing. But still you've always needed more than that to gain a really usable system. Space for WIN driver, FLP driver, maybe RAM disc, the whole extended environment and of course TK2! This puts the seemingly massive current SMSQ/E for QPC in perspective (currently at 287kb. However, last version for QPC1 was 191kb big! A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). ... but measure SMSQ/E with the size of the code for PCs and it is nothing. You have to go back to DOS on 5.25 disks to get less than SMSQ/E (8-)# Simple MSN messenger is over 4mb - I know you, Marcel, really hate that (8-)# -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
- Original Message - From: Dave P [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ql-users [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Marcel Kilgus wrote: This puts the seemingly massive current SMSQ/E for QPC in perspective (currently at 287kb. However, last version for QPC1 was 191kb big! A lot has happened since then... the 3 included screen driver alone take up a whole lot of space). Does anyone remember what was originally intended to occupy the 32768-65535 space? Was that all meant to be available for ROM expansion? Or was some of it intended for some other use? Dave Second screen ? If anyone is interested I think Joe Miller still has some Thor stuff ( 2 or 3 machines but maybe not all working). probably get his attention by leaving a message at Applications unlimited ( sorry don't have url at hand ) All the best - Bill
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Bill Waugh wrote: Does anyone remember what was originally intended to occupy the 32768-65535 space? Was that all meant to be available for ROM expansion? Or was some of it intended for some other use? Second screen ? Nah, far off. That's at 160kb ($28000). Marcel
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Firshman Sent: 03 February 2004 21:25 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor Pffft :-) Because I don't know the full ins and outs of any of the machines I've got (other than as a user) I have to rely on what people tell me or what I read on the web..somewhere out there is a QL document that says the multi-tasking wasn't 'real'. What do you define as 'real'. I haven't seen such a document. It had pre-emptive multi tasking with processor support. The only thing it couldn't do was manage screen refresh. Wherever I got that info from (suppose I should not my sources in proper publishing fashion) said that while the QL could have more than one app in memory at any point in time, given enough RAM, any background tasks would be paused. Now reading the 2nd paragraph leads me to think whoever wrote that about the multitasking simply noticed the background apps were paused when in reality all they were waiting for was a screen refresh. snip stuff which I should add to the QL page! He also gave a good front end for everything, which was very much on a par with Windows 3.x Was this the ICE environment I've seen mentioned with the Thor? I haven't found anything on the web about this yet, but then I suppose google isn't 'the web' yet :) I can always fire up the QL that's a couple of feet away from me and try it for myself :) Please do (8-)# Where did I put that 512k expansionhmm. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o(
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 at 19:41:48, Tony Firshman wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) 48K. yes, 48k - and not just superbasic - the whole O/S. This was the great thing about the QL. It was ready to go without having to load the O/S from file, with a full basic supported command line. Mea Culpa. It was a long time ago and Tarquin remembers better than I - although he was nearly in nappies then (8-)# Yes - Sinclair designed the system around 32K internal ROM, with 32k external ROM in 2 x 16k eproms His eprom card had two chip slots. His dongle used the third 16k slot, and left one free. He never managed to squeeze into 32k, so 'normal' Ql production had 48k internal rom, and 16k ROM slot. Sorry.. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
RE: [ql-users] CST Thor
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Waugh Sent: 03 February 2004 22:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] CST Thor If anyone is interested I think Joe Miller still has some Thor stuff ( 2 or 3 machines but maybe not all working). probably get his attention by leaving a message at Applications unlimited ( sorry don't have url at hand ) Thanks Bill. Cheers, W
Re: [ql-users] CST Thor
Tony Firshman wrote: When memory became short (often in the pre-Gold Card days) you could see him using the 32k screen area as a working space! Actually there was a bug in exactly this code that more often than not crashed the machine in this situation. I have only fixed it a few months ago while reviewing my new background colour implementation... Marcel
