Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Eric Cox]

"Scott D. Yelich" wrote:
> 
> Understand?  There's just, what I perceive, as a growing tendency for
> people to answer a question with what they want, regardless of what they
> were asked. 

Or perhaps they just don't know the answer to that exact question, so they 
"nibble around the edges" a bit, and give the questioner the benefit of 
what knowledge they _do_ have.  

Is no answer better?


> ps: have you noticed that LES's address bounces?  I wonder if he's
> having difficulty with qmail.  I struggled with qmail yesterday for 3+
> hours... I followed a FAQ/HOWTO to the letter... it's faulty. Yes, I
> finally figured it out and I even resisted asking the list.

Which FAQ is faulty?  it might make it easier to improve them if you 
volunteered the information. 

Eric

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Robin S. Socha]

* Scott D Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> Scott D. Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

[Asking for XYZ when everyone knows XYZ is a dumb thing to do]

>> Very often, people new to an area get really dumb ideas.  I've done it
>> myself.  Sometimes wanting to do "XYZ" is a warning flag for one of
>> these.  Telling them how to do "XYZ" is likely to not help them reach
>> their actual goal.  

People that told me how XZY were the ones that made me put /etc under
CVS. Just in case...

>> Of course, since I can't read their minds, I can't know this for
>> sure.  So my options are to answer the question, while suspecting I'm
>> not being helpful -- or ask a question of my own to determine what
>> answer would be useful.  Seems an easy choice to me.

> Yes, sometimes.  But should one really assume that everyone is just
> nothing but a clueless 'n newbie and thus simply assume to have
> the right to think for them and proceed to do so?

Absolutely. I vividly remember asking how to run an alpha version of
Gnus. Without using a backup recipe in procmail. *smack* 1500 mails
gone. I would not have minded telling *why* I wanted to run this
particular version of dangerous software. Modern Linux distributions
go to great lenghts to a) win the version size war and b) enable
users to run software that is likely to do considerable harm to their
systems.

Clueless newbies come in two flavours: dick-size challenged lusers and
people who are genuinely lost. Guess which group will appreciate an
affirmative question?

> How about... another example.  Perhaps this one is clearer and/or more
> close to home:

> Q : How do I install qmail?
> A : You install postfix by blah blah
> blah.  
> QQ: I asked about qmail.  
> AA: No one uses qmail, everyone uses postfix because it's better.
> Hell, use sendmail, if you have to, just don't use qmail.  No one
> uses qmail... see, even FAQs say don't use qmail.

> Understand?  

Never saw this on this list. Remember the OP in this[1] thread? A luser
wanted to make copies of all incoming/outgoing mail. He got a correct,
concise and (give the circumstances (the solution is advertised in
bold letters in the FAQ)) polite answer. I mean, face it: if
you're too fscking stoopid to recompile a freaking mailserver (one of
the tools most likely to wreak havoc on unsuspecting admins if
configured improperly), you *do* *not* *need* one.

> There's just, what I perceive, as a growing tendency for people to answer
> a question with what they want, regardless of what they were asked.  This
> doesn't just mean that a person is asking about qmail on a qmail list and
> is only being told about qmail -- this is just a general observation.

Well, thanks for bringing your observation to our attention. Happens
to me every day. "Yo, d00d3, how much for the Bentley?" "Err, Sir, I
think you'd rather take a look at those matchbox Bentleys..." Does not
happen on this list, though. Sorry for blowing your attempt at making
a point. Next time, maybe. Gotta try harder, Scott.

> Sometimes corporate or clients demand something...  sometimes people
> want to experiment or try things out.  

You do not want to experiment with an MTA. Or with a newsserver. Unless
you know what you're doing. In which case you're not experimenting but
evaluating possibilities.

> Sometimes one size just won't fit all.

Only if your solution is too small. My experience in this field is
extremely limited. Thanks, God.

> Sometimes people may just have to make their own mistakes.  After all,
> if shouldn't we all just be using mircosoft solutions... and exchange?
> It *is* the best MTA, right?  :-/

No, Scott, it isn't. But making a mistake with an MTA *sucks* if you're
connected.

> Anyway, it's no biggy... just a little something to chuckle at.  It's
> like ending a sentence with a preposition.

Prepositions are no good thing to end a sentence with, Scott.

> ps: have you noticed that LES's address bounces?  I wonder if he's
> having difficulty with qmail.  I struggled with qmail yesterday for 3+
> hours... 

I've been struggling with it ever since I installed it. Good software.

> I followed a FAQ/HOWTO to the letter... it's faulty. Yes, I finally
> figured it out and I even resisted asking the list.

man diff

We're lightyears OT, reply-to set. Happy reading, Scott.
Footnotes: 
[1]  Courtesy of Microsoft Crapware(tm), we're now in thread number
 four, but who cares these days?
-- 
Robin S. Socha 

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Scott D. Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes on 12 September 2000 at 10:12:15 -0600
 > On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
 > > Scott D. Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes on 10 September 2000 at 21:14:31 -0600
 > >  > The favorite is always:  
 > >  > Q:  I would like to do "XYZ"
 > >  > A:  WHY do you want to do "XYZ"
 > >  > Who cares why?  STOP trying to think for me, ok?  If I want to do XYZ, I
 > >  > want to do XYZ.  I don't care if you group-think and are simply a number
 > >  > in society -- some people don't care to be that way.
 > > Very often, people new to an area get really dumb ideas.  I've done it
 > > myself.  Sometimes wanting to do "XYZ" is a warning flag for one of
 > > these.  Telling them how to do "XYZ" is likely to not help them reach
 > > their actual goal.  Of course, since I can't read their minds, I can't
 > > know this for sure.  So my options are to answer the question, while
 > > suspecting I'm not being helpful -- or ask a question of my own to
 > > determine what answer would be useful.  Seems an easy choice to me. 
 > 
 > Yes, sometimes.  But should one really assume that everyone is just
 > nothing but a clueless 'n newbie and thus simply assume to have the
 > right to think for them and proceed to do so?

Absolutely not; that would be completely wrong, and quite rude.  But
you'll notice that isn't what I suggested.  The whole point was to
*not* make assumptions, but instead to ask for clarification when
there was some cause for doubt.  *That*, IMHO, is responsible, polite,
and producive.

 > ps: have you noticed that LES's address bounces?  I wonder if he's
 > having difficulty with qmail.  I struggled with qmail yesterday for 3+
 > hours... I followed a FAQ/HOWTO to the letter... it's faulty. Yes, I
 > finally figured it out and I even resisted asking the list.

Well, be sure to report the errors you found, if possible with a
suggested way to fix them!
-- 
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
Bookworms: http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b 
David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Dave Sill]

"Scott D. Yelich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Understand?  There's just, what I perceive, as a growing tendency for
>people to answer a question with what they want, regardless of what they
>were asked.

I agree that this is "no biggy". This list is a completely free,
voluntary and open forum, and both questioners and answerers are free
to be stupid, wrong, irrelevant, irreverent, annoying, etc. So if Joe
takes every question referring to mailbox formats as an opportunity to 
sing the praises of maildir, so what? If you ask a question and nobody 
answers it, so what? You want a refund? :-)

>...  I struggled with qmail yesterday for 3+
>hours... I followed a FAQ/HOWTO to the letter... it's faulty. Yes, I
>finally figured it out and I even resisted asking the list.

I hope you reported the fault to the author. I also hope you thanked
him for the FAQ/HOWTO he wrote, because without it you would doubtless
have struggled even more than 3+ hours.

-Dave

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Scott D. Yelich]

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Scott D. Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes on 10 September 2000 at 21:14:31 -0600
>  > The favorite is always:  
>  > Q:  I would like to do "XYZ"
>  > A:  WHY do you want to do "XYZ"
>  > Who cares why?  STOP trying to think for me, ok?  If I want to do XYZ, I
>  > want to do XYZ.  I don't care if you group-think and are simply a number
>  > in society -- some people don't care to be that way.
> Very often, people new to an area get really dumb ideas.  I've done it
> myself.  Sometimes wanting to do "XYZ" is a warning flag for one of
> these.  Telling them how to do "XYZ" is likely to not help them reach
> their actual goal.  Of course, since I can't read their minds, I can't
> know this for sure.  So my options are to answer the question, while
> suspecting I'm not being helpful -- or ask a question of my own to
> determine what answer would be useful.  Seems an easy choice to me. 

Yes, sometimes.  But should one really assume that everyone is just
nothing but a clueless 'n newbie and thus simply assume to have the
right to think for them and proceed to do so?

How about... another example.  Perhaps this one is clearer and/or more
close to home:

Q : How do I install qmail?
A : You install postfix by blah blah blah.
QQ: I asked about qmail.
AA: No one uses qmail, everyone uses postfix because it's better.  Hell,
use sendmail, if you have to, just don't use qmail.  No one uses
qmail... see, even FAQs say don't use qmail.

Understand?  There's just, what I perceive, as a growing tendency for
people to answer a question with what they want, regardless of what they
were asked.  This doesn't just mean that a person is asking about qmail
on a qmail list and is only being told about qmail -- this is just a
general observation.  Sometimes corporate or clients demand something...
sometimes people want to experiment or try things out.  Sometimes one
size just won't fit all.  Sometimes people may just have to make their
own mistakes.  After all, if shouldn't we all just be using mircosoft
solutions... and exchange?  It *is* the best MTA, right?  :-/

Anyway, it's no biggy... just a little something to chuckle at.  It's
like ending a sentence with a preposition.

Scott
ps: have you noticed that LES's address bounces?  I wonder if he's
having difficulty with qmail.  I struggled with qmail yesterday for 3+
hours... I followed a FAQ/HOWTO to the letter... it's faulty. Yes, I
finally figured it out and I even resisted asking the list.

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Adam McKenna]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:18:05AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Scott D. Yelich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes on 10 September 2000 at 21:14:31 -0600
> 
>  > The favorite is always:  
>  > 
>  > Q:  I would like to do "XYZ"
>  > A:  WHY do you want to do "XYZ"
>  > 
>  > Who cares why?  STOP trying to think for me, ok?  If I want to do XYZ, I
>  > want to do XYZ.  I don't care if you group-think and are simply a number
>  > in society -- some people don't care to be that way.
> 
> Very often, people new to an area get really dumb ideas.  I've done it
> myself.  Sometimes wanting to do "XYZ" is a warning flag for one of
> these.  Telling them how to do "XYZ" is likely to not help them reach
> their actual goal.  Of course, since I can't read their minds, I can't
> know this for sure.  So my options are to answer the question, while
> suspecting I'm not being helpful -- or ask a question of my own to
> determine what answer would be useful.  Seems an easy choice to me. 

I think that the crux of the issue is that some people don't realize that
they are ASKING for help.  They act as if they are entitled to it.

The yelich problem described above is a classic example of biting the hand
that feeds you.  I am pretty sure that any reasonable person would welcome a
better way of doing something if one were presented to him.  Especially if it
involved less work and had a smaller chance of problems along the line.

But I guess there will always be people who would rather learn the hard way,
and that is why yelich remains in my procmail filters.

--Adam

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Scott D. Yelich]

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Leslie Bester  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Otherwise, I would really appreciate anyone who can provide me with relevant
> information (minus the flames, and non-answer yielding responses) (Send
> those off-list)

oh, and that's another thing these days... those who give you an answer
that doen't even address your question -- then treat you as if you owe
them something for their useless garbage.

Have you ever tried #perl on efnet?

My example goes something like:

If you were a student learning to drive... and you asked someone from
#perl (etc.) what the yellow light was for in the traffic light -- you'd
get a first answer -- "red is for stop, green is for go" ... if you then
press the issue and state that you really just want to know about the
"yellow" ... light you'll be told that "no one here uses yellow" (or
similar ala "you're stupid if you use yellow" etc) or the instructor
would tell you that you're too stupid of a student and refuse to teach
you or even be in the same car as you.

The favorite is always:  

Q:  I would like to do "XYZ"
A:  WHY do you want to do "XYZ"

Who cares why?  STOP trying to think for me, ok?  If I want to do XYZ, I
want to do XYZ.  I don't care if you group-think and are simply a number
in society -- some people don't care to be that way.

Scott

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Robin S. Socha]

* Michael T. Babcock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000906 11:08]:
> Seeing as you so enjoy being sarcastic, lets ask a few extras:
> 
> "Robin S. Socha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > * Jason Brooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000906 09:34]:

> > Cool quoting style, honey...
> >
> > > The URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies that someone
> > > posted does in fact seem to say that what you need can be done,
> > > although it certainly appears to assume the user has a certain
> > > knowledge level -
> >
> > Like what? Reading ability? God bless America...
> 
> No, like knowing how qmail delivery works, etc.  

How can you not know that after you had to take a couple of
not-so-very-obvious steps to replace your standard MTA?

> It would be nice if that FAQ at least mentionned cross-references for
> the other documentation related to the issue (note my previous
> E-mail).

This is an FAQ, not an idiot's guide to qmail. Sorry to let you down on
this.

> > | How do I keep a copy of all incoming and outgoing mail messages?
> > | Answer: Set QUEUE_EXTRA to "Tlog\0" and QUEUE_EXTRALEN to 5 in extra.h.
> 
> Ok, this begs the question, where do the copies end up?

(root@purgatory):(/var/qmail/doc)# grep INSTALL.alias INSTALL
 5. Read INSTALL.alias. Minimal survival command:

[blabla]
> (Just to point out that you didn't answer the question, and neither
> does the FAQ).

You are either very stupid or very naive. Poor you.

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Russell Nelson]

Leslie Bester  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 > What a useful list.
 > 
 > I would of thought that posting what I thought was a pretty basic question
 > would yield something resembling an answer from someone.

Nope.  Never.  Asking basic questions without first reading the
documentation is another way to say "I have no respect for your time.
My time is all-important.  Now down on your knees, knave, and answer
me!"

-- 
-russ nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://russnelson.com |
Crynwr sells support for free software  | PGPok | Damn the firewalls!
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Full connectivity ahead!
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | 

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Michael T. Babcock]

Seeing as you so enjoy being sarcastic, lets ask a few extras:

- Original Message -
From: "Robin S. Socha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> * Jason Brooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000906 09:34]:
> Cool quoting style, honey...
>
> > The URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies that someone
> > posted does in fact seem to say that what you need can be done,
> > although it certainly appears to assume the user has a certain
> > knowledge level -
>
> Like what? Reading ability? God bless America...

No, like knowing how qmail delivery works, etc.  Do you want me to explain
to you how quantum properties of light purportedly work without giving the
introductory physics?  It would be nice if that FAQ at least mentionned
cross-references for the other documentation related to the issue (note my
previous E-mail).

> | How do I keep a copy of all incoming and outgoing mail messages?
> | Answer: Set QUEUE_EXTRA to "Tlog\0" and QUEUE_EXTRALEN to 5 in extra.h.

Ok, this begs the question, where do the copies end up?

> | Put ./msg-log into ~alias/.qmail-log.

And you are free to tell everyone (in the FAQ maybe?) what putting msg-log
in .qmail-log does.  Sure, it tells qmail how to handle deliveries intended
for the 'log' alias.  So, how does the user (as was asked) have these
messages delivered to an account for POP retrieval?

(Just to point out that you didn't answer the question, and neither does the
FAQ).

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Leslie Bester  [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes on 6 September 2000 at 03:16:32 -0500

 > So!  If the URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies actually
 > provides the exact answer I'm looking for, please excuse my ignorance.

You're excused.  It's the last item on the page at that URL, the last
item in the FAQ.  The headline is "How do I keep a copy of all
incoming and outgoing messages"; if you'd actually read it that should
have been something of a clue, eh?

To be really specific, it tells you how to have the copies delivered
to a specific user.  If you've got POP working on your system, that
user can then view the messages via POP.
-- 
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
Bookworms: http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b 
David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Robin S. Socha]

* Jason Brooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [000906 09:34]:
> 
> > Otherwise, I would really appreciate anyone who can provide me with
> relevant
> > information (minus the flames, and non-answer yielding responses) (Send
> > those off-list)

Cool quoting style, honey...

> Great reply - I hope your experience with some of the people on the list
> doesn't inhibit your experience with Qmail too greatly, and I hope you find
> your answer

  10   X 000906 Leslie Bester  le ( 36) Monitoring Email
  11   F 000906 To [EMAIL PROTECTED] (  9) `->  <-- the answer is here
  12 r X 000906 Leslie Bester  le ( 27)   `->
  13   X 000906 Adam McKenna  ( 22) |->
  14   X 000906 Leslie Bester  le ( 88) | `->Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified
  15   X 000906 Jason Brooke  ( 29) |   `->  <-- you are here
  16   F 000906 To [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( 29) |->  <-- the explanation is here
  17   X 000906 Leslie Bester  le ( 40) | |->
  18   X 000906 Peter van Dijk( 14) | | `->
  19   X 000906 kapil sharma  ( 19) | `->qmail 25 port problem
  20   X 000906 Dave Sill ( 34) `->

> The URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies that someone
> posted does in fact seem to say that what you need can be done,
> although it certainly appears to assume the user has a certain
> knowledge level - 

Like what? Reading ability? God bless America...

> it doesn't go into a lot of detail. 

| How do I keep a copy of all incoming and outgoing mail messages? 
| Answer: Set QUEUE_EXTRA to "Tlog\0" and QUEUE_EXTRALEN to 5 in extra.h.

(root@purgatory):(/usr/local/src/Qmail/qmail-1.03)# cat extra.h
#define QUEUE_EXTRA "Tlog\0"
#define QUEUE_EXTRALEN 5

| Recompile qmail. 

make setup

| Put ./msg-log into ~alias/.qmail-log. 

(root@purgatory):(/usr/local/src/Qmail/qmail-1.03)# cat ~alias/.qmail-log
./msg-log

(root@purgatory):(/var/qmail/alias)# ll msg-log
-rw---   1 aliasqmail  437216 Sep  6 15:49 msg-log

> Are you able to do what it suggests? I can follow what it's
> suggesting, but I've never tried it. I might give it a test and let
> you know how it goes.

Please do. Let's all share this experience. Anyone got a tree I can hug?
Or a shotgun?

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Jason Brooke]

> Otherwise, I would really appreciate anyone who can provide me with
relevant
> information (minus the flames, and non-answer yielding responses) (Send
> those off-list)
>
> Thanks,
> Les.


Great reply - I hope your experience with some of the people on the list
doesn't inhibit your experience with Qmail too greatly, and I hope you find
your answer

I can't offer an explicit answer for you, other than to say that I'm almost
completely sure that what you're asking is possible - if I understand what
you're needing to do.

The URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies that someone posted does
in fact seem to say that what you need can be done, although it certainly
appears to assume the user has a certain knowledge level - it doesn't go
into a lot of detail. Are you able to do what it suggests? I can follow what
it's suggesting, but I've never tried it. I might give it a test and let you
know how it goes.

jason

Re: Monitoring Email - Clarified

[Leslie Bester [EMAIL PROTECTED]]

What a useful list.

I would of thought that posting what I thought was a pretty basic question
would yield something resembling an answer from someone.

I hope the responses I received so far, both on and off list, are not
examples of typical hospitality and support I hope to receive.

I would ask that people who do reply, to actually include an answer instead
of a veiled flame..  send the flames off-list to spare the rest of the users
the enjoyment of reading what essentially is static noise.

...

For your enjoyment thought Adam, I will dig out some prescription glasses
and re-read and re-state my last message, just for you in an easier to
understand way..

Here it is:

Based on the answer from the friendly people on the list that I've
encountered so far, I'm to understand the URL to the FAQ (which I so
blatantly did not read) describes a method to do what I asked in my original
message...

And I'll restate that as well, with some extra commentary just so everyone
know what and why I wish to know if this can be done.

I've been contacted by a client who wishes to monitor incoming and outgoing
email, to the extent of message body contents, and attachments.  (Please,
send your "This is immoral/illegal/un-right" comments to me off-list).  For
reasons which are really not relevant to the users of the list, I won't
explain why they want to do this, other than, they want to do it.

The final outcome I would like to achieve is to have a pop account where the
client can retrieve all mail sent in and out of their company.  I would like
each message to be available to your typical outlook/Eudora/pop3 compatible
mail client.  I would also like the ability to select each message and if
desired, view its contents in full, as well as the ability to save
attachments added to the email in question.

What is not suitable, is a log of To/From/Message Size, incase there is any
confusion.  The actual contents (and attachments) must be easily viewable,
just as if the email was sent to you (instead of nabbed/copy/forwarded in
the process)

So!  If the URL http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/admin.html#copies actually
provides the exact answer I'm looking for, please excuse my ignorance.

Otherwise, I would really appreciate anyone who can provide me with relevant
information (minus the flames, and non-answer yielding responses) (Send
those off-list)

Thanks,
Les.

- Original Message -
From: "Adam McKenna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: Monitoring Email


> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 02:47:14AM -0500, Leslie Bester  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> > Being new to Qmail, and even after going to the url that you so politely
> > provided, I still do not see the answer.
>
> Read closer, or get glasses.
>
> > Does that method you pointed to via url actually provide a pop-account
where
> > one can login and view all sent/received messages from any pop3 client?
> > And, once viewing each individual message, provide the ability to save
> > attachments?
>
> Does qmail actually provide a pop-account where one can login and view all
> sent/recieved messages from any pop3 client?  And, once viewing each
> individual message, provide the ability to save attachments?
>
> Does Linux actually provide a pop-account where one can login and view
> all sent/received messages from any pop3 client?  And, once viewing each
> individual message, provide the ability to save attachments?
>
> > Les.
>
> --Adam