Re: Just in case you haven't seen it: (was Re: Read the FAQs and archives)

[Dan Knight]

Robert Gray writes:

>At 07:27:11 -0700 on 2/14/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>Policies for Low End Mac Email Lists
>>
>>The goal of each of our mailing lists is to
>
>First time I ever saw this and I read everything that's sent to me 
>especially when joining a list.  I have received the rules from Dan, 
>have a copy of the netiquette, and have bookmarked pickle's FAQ but 
>I've never seen this statement of policy.  Looks like something the 
>nannies use but the rest of us aren't privy to.  I looked all over 
>LEM.com and didn't find it. URL's pointing to all this stuff should 
>be included in the Welcome message.  How is a subscriber to know 
>what's expected of them if they never see this?

They will learn all they need to know about how the list work by reading 
the FAQ and netiquette page when they join the list. We assume they read 
them before they attempt to subscribe, and the confirmation email reminds 
them to do so.

The material posted is from the List Management FAQ and has not been 
posted for public consumption until now. As with politics and sausage, 
you're sometimes better off not knowing how management decisions are made.

Subscribers are responsible for following the rules of the list and 
netiquette. The rest of the Nanny-FAQ defines terms, explains our 
options, and provides guidelines for enforcement.

The only reason they have never been posted on the site is that they are 
specifically indended for the dozen or so people who help keep the lists 
running smoothly. I will be making a few changes to these policies and 
posting them on LEM. I will confer with the nannies about whether we 
should make them public or not, since this directly impacts their 
volunteer efforts.


-- 
Dan Knight, president, Cobweb Publishing, Inc.
  
  
   

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Re: Just in case you haven't seen it: (was Re: Read the FAQs and archives)

[the pickle]

At 21:09 -0500 on 14/02/03, Robert Gray wrote:

>I've never seen this statement of policy.  Looks like something the
>nannies use but the rest of us aren't privy to.  I looked all over

I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that was recently posted to the
private nanny list.

I agree that it ought to be public (the statement, though I also think the list
ought to be public, for reasons I'd rather not get into on the list).

Dan, nannies, whomever else...portions of that, if not the entire thing, should
be added to the list FAQs as soon as possible.

Oh, one minor correction: posting links to *sites* that themselves have links
to the service manuals should NEVER be grounds for a ban; I fully support
severe warnings for direct links to the manuals themselves, however.  If the
links to sites is grounds for a ban, you may as well kick both Gamba and myself
off all the lists.

CC'd to Dan and Paul directly.
-- 

the pickle

FAQ 
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Re: Just in case you haven't seen it: (was Re: Read the FAQs and archives)

[Robert Gray]

At 07:27:11 -0700 on 2/14/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Policies for Low End Mac Email Lists
>
>The goal of each of our mailing lists is to

First time I ever saw this and I read everything that's sent to me 
especially when joining a list.  I have received the rules from Dan, 
have a copy of the netiquette, and have bookmarked pickle's FAQ but 
I've never seen this statement of policy.  Looks like something the 
nannies use but the rest of us aren't privy to.  I looked all over 
LEM.com and didn't find it. URL's pointing to all this stuff should 
be included in the Welcome message.  How is a subscriber to know 
what's expected of them if they never see this?

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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Tracy Keirns]

I hate to see all of the new subscribers leaving before they can find 
out what a great resource this list can be.  I don't remember how long 
I've been subscribed, but I have learned a great deal of valuable 
information from this list.  I don't post very often anymore but I do 
read each digest when it  shows up in my e-mail.  And I guess I feel 
the need to add my thoughts on all of this.

1.  I've read the faq's.  While very informative the information 
doesn't always make sense to me.  I tend to remember things better if I 
can think back and go "Oh yeah, Jeff G. told me I could e-mail using a 
Plus if I just did this..."  Or "Yes children, our LC 475's will work 
just fine once I find new batteries.  How do I know?  This guy named 
the pickle told me." (and of course my students think that is S 
funny.  I have a hard time convincing them it is true!)

2.  The idea of what is OT for the list seems to depend on the weather, 
phases of the moon, or who knows what.  I've seen bickering go on for a 
number of digests before it is actually ended.  And I've seen a 
computer question, even if it not exactly suited to the list, stopped 
immediately.  I know that I feel more comfortable asking people I 
"know" a question.  This little Mac community is like an extended 
family.  I've even talked about some of you guys and what goes on in 
these lists with my husband at dinner.  (My poor husband thinks I am 
crazy by the way!)  Maybe they don't know where to go to say  "Hey, can 
any of you help me with  a Timex/Sinclair computer".  Most of those 
types of postings seem to run their course much quicker than the 
bickering, and people can always respond to the poster off list.

3.  Those of you that have been using Macs for years need to remember 
what it was like the first time you learned to use a computer.  I've 
used books, the faqs, these lists, hands on experience, and the 
internet to learn what I know about Macs.  I'm the "Mac geek" in our 
building.  I've got coworkers that have been "using" computers for 
years and they still don't know how to use the keyboard shortcut to 
print.  The main difference is that I am really into computers, and 
they aren't.  They would like to learn how to use them more 
effectively, but they have no idea where to begin and they are still 
scared of doing something wrong and breaking them.  (You should have 
seen the panic in their eyes when I installed memory in a first 
generation iMac!  Or when I spray painted the SE's with my students.)  
I tend to go much slower when I show these people how to do something 
new, and I always help them set up a "cheat sheet" if they need it.  
One coworker came to me yesterday and told me that she had changed her 
password ALL BY HERSELF using the cheat sheet that I made her.  She was 
so excited.  And many many years ago she was my 5th grade teacher...now 
it's my chance to teach her something.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.  Now I'll go back to thinking 
about the new writing center that I am going to make with my students 
this year.  Spray painted LC 475's anyone? ;)

Tracy


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[E McCann]

At 03:15 AM 2/14/2003, Paul Stamsen typed thusly:

>At 21:03 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Jim Arnott)  observed:
>
>
>>  Paul Stamsen wrote:
>>   > At 15:58 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Grin With Me)  observed:
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >>  It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
>>   >>  is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >  The writer of the above has been banned.
>>
>>
>>  Why? For venturing an opinion? In the first paragraph, IMHO, a quite
>>  valid opinion.
>
>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.


You know, that's just sort of a kicker right there.

"A community doesn't just tell people to read the FAQ."
"You can't say that, it's OT. Read the FAQ."

That, after banning what's obviously a throwaway address.

While I agree the original post (as seen in my reply) was really designed 
as a troll, I think it's time to find that "community" again.

Enjoy your FAQ. I'm heading offlist, too.


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Dan Palka]

I'm starting to feel that way about the list as well.  However I remain 
for my Quadra's sake.  I have such a fascination with 68k macs, and 
trying to get them to be as applicable in the modern world as possible.

Just yesterday I bought a PowerBook 190cs and an Orinoco wireless network 
PC Card.  That will be one hot item at the grand opening of the michigan 
avenue apple store later this spring.

>> For someone with who takes the time to put a fish in his signature, you
>> do very little soul searching, Paul.
>>
>> But, clear you are. Whatever this list may have been for the 4 or more
>> years I've been reading it, it's no longer a discussion group. Or,
>> interesting. Or, relevant. Feel free to pontificate without me.
>>
>> On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 03:15  AM, Paul Stamsen wrote:
>>
>>>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
>>>  Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear,
>>> unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.
>>
>>
>
>What he said...





**

Lots of hellos from Dan Palka's Quadra 800:
The power to be your best.

**


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[P . F . Grenier]

On Friday, Feb 14, 2003, at 09:42 US/Eastern, James S Jones wrote:

> For someone with who takes the time to put a fish in his signature, you
> do very little soul searching, Paul.
>
> But, clear you are. Whatever this list may have been for the 4 or more
> years I've been reading it, it's no longer a discussion group. Or,
> interesting. Or, relevant. Feel free to pontificate without me.
>
> On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 03:15  AM, Paul Stamsen wrote:
>
>>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
>>  Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear,
>> unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.
>
>

What he said...


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[James S Jones]

For someone with who takes the time to put a fish in his signature, you 
do very little soul searching, Paul.

But, clear you are. Whatever this list may have been for the 4 or more 
years I've been reading it, it's no longer a discussion group. Or, 
interesting. Or, relevant. Feel free to pontificate without me.

On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 03:15  AM, Paul Stamsen wrote:

>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
>  Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear, 
> unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Demetrius]

On 2003-02-14 10:19:50 -0400 Ian Tindale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I must say, I've been on this list for some days now. It's not a very nice 
>experience, and I'm going to remove myself from this negativity by unsubscribing 
>shortly.

   I too am very new to the list and have found it to be rather bitter. Good bye 
Quadlist...


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Ian Tindale]

I must say, I've been on this list for some days now. It's not a very nice 
experience, and I'm going to remove myself from this negativity by 
unsubscribing shortly.

I think I'll put the old Q650 back into the attic. I've found something that 
replaces it very well anyway - it's a small piece of wood, wedge shaped, 
which emulates it in every way, and has the additional feature in that we 
don't trip over it when we come through the door like we did with the Q650. 

-- 
Ian Tindale

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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Jim Arnott]

Like many others... Cya.

Paul Stamsen wrote:
> At 21:03 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Jim Arnott)  observed:
> 
> 
>>  Paul Stamsen wrote:
>>   > At 15:58 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Grin With Me)  observed:
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >>  It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
>>   >>  is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >  The writer of the above has been banned.
>>
>>
>>  Why? For venturing an opinion? In the first paragraph, IMHO, a quite
>>  valid opinion.
> 
> 
>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
>  Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear, 
> unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.
> 
> 



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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Dan Palka]

Is the listmom for PowerBooks list the same as the one for Quadlist.

>  No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
>  Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear, 
>unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.





**

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The power to be your best.

**


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Paul Stamsen]

At 21:03 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Jim Arnott)  observed:



 Paul Stamsen wrote:
  > At 15:58 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Grin With Me)  observed:
  >
  >
  >>  It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
  >>  is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are
  >
  >
  >  The writer of the above has been banned.


 Why? For venturing an opinion? In the first paragraph, IMHO, a quite
 valid opinion.


 No, for violatinfg list rules. Read the List FAQ.
 Please drop the subject. If you are displeased your choice is clear, 
unsubscribe or appeal to the ListMom. Who, IIRC,  had his say on this.


--
HTH,

 Paul (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) <><
QuadList & PCI PowerMacs nanny  ^±^

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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Jim Arnott]

Paul Stamsen wrote:
 > At 15:58 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Grin With Me)  observed:
 >
 >
 >>  It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
 >>  is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are
 >
 >
 >  The writer of the above has been banned.


Why? For venturing an opinion? In the first paragraph, IMHO, a quite 
valid opinion.

I've been subscribed to a few of these lists for a number of years, and 
it seems that some remain a community while others become... I don't 
know exactly what the word is.  Looking at how the posts sort into my 
folders seems to tell the tale. On any given day, 50-100 into the G3 and 
PCI folders, typically 5-15 into the Toaster and Quad folders. About the 
same volume as the MAX list. Perhaps the new visitors wish to be helped, 
not told to go scroll four screens full of instructions that may or may 
not apply to their personal situation.

Might be that they're just trying to see what kind of folks hang out here.

In my observation, a whole lot less friendly folks than hang out some 
other places. "Read the FAQ", "It's in the FAQ", and similar replies are 
like calling Tech Support and being told, "RTFM". It probably *is* in 
the FM, but I can't find it.

I pay $10/mo more than I should for ISP access just because I can pick 
up the phone at three ayem and talk to a human being.  I usually tell 
*them* what the problem is, but the ability to speak w/ a human is worth 
the price.  Community.

Jim
"Are we kinder and gentler yet?"



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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Paul Stamsen]

At 15:58 -0800, 2/13/03,   (Grin With Me)  observed:



 It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
 is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are


 The writer of the above has been banned.
--




Paul (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)
   "the ^±^ weasel"
QuadList & PCI PowerMacs nanny

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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[E McCann]

Well, not having seen your name on here (under *this* alias) before, I can 
only assume you're expecting a negative response.

All I'm going to say is:
1. Yeah, I agree about the lists. I also agree about checking the FAQ, 
though if you just see the list, join, and ask a question, you may not know 
about it.

So, instead of *just* saying "Read the FAQ" (I'll bet there are still a 
good number of people who join that not only don't know about the FAQ, but 
couldn't tell you what a FAQ was) how about modifying the reply:

"That's actually in the FAQ, which is at http://macfaq.org. Go to the  
section, there are some links / info / pictures / free toasters with 
signup. If you need help with some of what it says, feel free to ask."

As far as the TILs, it depends who has what links - some still point to the 
old location, some to the new, some who knows where.

2. Pickle and nannies. Sorry, but he *has* (and others have) been reined in 
on occasion - and it's been mentioned on the lists or email. So if Pickle - 
or anyone else, for that matter - is getting abusive, *EMAIL THE NANNY* and 
quote where / when / why. It's one thing to say "Pickle's being mean!" and 
another entirely to say "Would you do something here, this guy asked what 
the "0/1 button" on the back did and so and so replied like this (copy 
flame.)"

Having worked in support and being told *flat out* by someone asking the 
*same* question I'd answered fifty times that week "I don't need to look at 
the manual / help files, I have you!" there are times I can definately 
understand Pickle or anyone else getting "sour." Of course, those are also 
the times I took a break, took a vacation, or went to a different newsgroup 
(these days, at least. No money in it.)

It's also a matter of perception. Just saying "You didn't read the FAQ, did 
you - look there" might seem bland to one person, but insulting or 
condescending to another (as opposed to "It's in the FAQ, you *#$&*(#!!!" 
which would definatley be a flame... without the symbols.)

Just my... eh, looks like more than two cents.
Now, can we get back to Quadras?


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Re: Read the FAQs and archives

[Grin With Me]

It seems bizarre to me that the creator of these lists
is incapable of seeing their function. The lists are
not just a venue for the exchange of technical
information. They are, in fact, the meeting places of
a community. A community that shares the same desires
but not necessarily the same levels of expertise. It
is also a community that changes over time.
Communities don't learn. People do. As a result,
simple questions get asked again and again. And again.

The problem isn't people not doing research or using
google or reading TILs. Face it, Dan Knight, users
start doing that and there's no need for the lists. At
least that's the way you see it. The way I see it is
that the problem isn't people not reading the FAQ.
It's people getting beaten over the head with the FAQ
by pickle. Yes, pickle. It's time for him to move on.

It is incontrovertible that pickle is an arrogant,
obnoxious, self-important, abusive individual who
believes that he is above the community. The so-called
nannies are too afraid to rein him in.  Dan Knight
undermines their authority by coming to pickle's
defense when there is no defense for his constant need
to humiliate newbies. His need is to be pitied because
it far beyond pathetic.

Chris Lawson, it's time for you to move on. Write a
book. Go see a movie. Get laid. Maybe if you work on
your arrogance you'll have another girlfriend.
Someday. You've done what you needed to do unless your
chronic insecurity has to be fed by bashing newbies or
harassing people who know as much as you do. Aren't
you embarrassed to be still on these lists and sending
obscene and disgusting emails to people off-list when
they anger you? Don't you debase yourself when you
arrogantly trash people who don't know about pram
batteries or case cleaning or video cards? Your ego
must be miles wide but only about an inch thick if
this is all you can come up with. 

It's really pathetic.



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