Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
> > > > I'm simply pointing out that your message is not directly relevant to > this thread. There are already lots of other threads on vPRO, Intel > ME, etc. You're free to join those discussions or even start your own > thread, if you like. > > "Bad hardware" is a controversial topic. Not everyone agrees on what > hardware is "bad" or even what exactly "bad" means in this context. > Arguably, there is no hardware currently available that is not "bad." > (Go read Joanna's papers and blog if you're not already convinced of > this.) If we're going to use computers at all right now, we're going > to have to accept hardware that is, to a not insignificant degree, > bad. It's unavoidable (for now). > > Can we, nonetheless, try to minimize the badness? We certainly can, > and that's an admirable pursuit. Are we going to set, as a minimum > requirement for Qubes, the elimination of all badness that can > possibly be eliminated? No, since we realize that the perfect can be > the enemy of the good. This is the same reason we support USB > kekyboards, for example. Using a USB keyboard is, frankly, a big > security risk. It would be better (less bad) not to use one. But some > of our users have no choice. If they can't use a USB keyboard, they > can't use Qubes at all. Using Qubes with a USB keyboard is still much > better than not using it at all. (At least, we think so. We leave this > determination up to each user rather than making the decision for > them.) We *could* make PS/2 keyboards a minimum requirement of Qubes, > thereby denying access to these people. Likewise, we *could* make the > absence of your list of undesirable hardware components a minimum > requirement of Qubes, thereby denying access to even more people. In > both cases, however, we believe the result would be worse for our > users, so we're not doing it. > > - -- > Andrew David Wong (Axon) > Community Manager, Qubes OS > https://www.qubes-os.org > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXxTZcAAoJENtN07w5UDAwV2cP/2FaOcN9O1DV6GZOQFfAgoLd > uEja4/SVbgPTtE83v9UMVsIDFa8TXtmpZP0RyTH6s/wLr1iuCODTzMalSmyAVv+y > taSSU/DluSrKwfEiuCGraBMOvniDPkFXi4QOtOhPDMvHKjkWEjq+zVcKo0OqLiRe > v5I9le92G4GqUJSIb4l0UkcPKmG+AljdS41u6KlOCuqQuqCGYZj+Z5gVaDzS6gwQ > 9o0xArRiv2vP4eMIIQPjtX+x9sYSNasJVZqy+W4xw+Ftj3AJzpe+8p7MBw1lXM0d > Nz9XERTq+jgxNmoineLTepEfz1fnyZRB0jrm3zwHoviEPOgFPWprtsK4cFx52EVc > GTMFsHdxz4tTW/L6HY3fuZQBxHnWgcLR2Mc5amZgWzRF0N5zsXZZUqmcjpAVDPEe > Nqwn/HubLbIEwVwgl4dUfIWe5ku6KukY3MhvRuvuzt4sJOl7x9yj3xOugfgJMox+ > Ngi7jJKyLHjIzq/edi8eRAQSooE+7yJbh9VotGKUr23rTNpufspUyMmQXq5dfDeP > Dv2OIt26mhC1a2qGqTF024cd5zbNBikp6SUt9wQ647pUzXPPY6+5AegeVOd/WTRj > 4IgNtU0xBaWdDPq17+7DlmYrHfAtDczrpgVH88kTjIFgG3SOdFEIlpFDdqMNJwEZ > sTlwt5jBHh9NfloiavAs > =fTH/ > -END PGP SIGNATURE- I agree with you that we're stuck with the hardware as it is... It's still beyond me how it's not relevant to hardware requirements when someone can, for example, easily pick one CPU/Wireless card instead of another when buying laptop/desktop... For non technical person (like me) that is the only hardware requirement I can deal with :)) Anyways, It seemed little rude from your side to dismiss me like that... but no hard feelings, we're on the same side here, right? :) Regards -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/db628bd9-d558-41fa-8be7-1b4b90be55ad%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 9:32:05 AM UTC+2, Andrew David Wong wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 2016-08-30 00:05, Darko Vuković wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 8:54:52 AM UTC+2, Andrew David Wong > > wrote: On 2016-08-29 23:41, Darko Vuković wrote: > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 8:26:40 AM UTC+2, Andrew > David Wong wrote: On 2016-08-29 21:28, Drew White wrote: > >>> On Saturday, 20 August 2016 04:28:16 UTC+10, Andrew > >>> David Wong wrote: > I don't know enough about the AMD platform to answer > definitively, but if I'm interpreting this Twitter > exchange correctly, it sounds like you might be > right: > > https://twitter.com/QubesOS/status/756041961203785728 > > > >>> > >>> So what are the actual requirements for Qubes 4? > >>> > > The minimum requirements haven't been officially announced > yet. (Only the requirements for Qubes Hardware Certification > have been). > > > If I understood correctly, one peace of the puzzle is Intel > EPT (Extended Page Tables) enabled CPU's. So any > laptop/notebook with one of them. > > >> http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?ExtendedPageTables= > >> true=MBL > > but, what I've managed to find on this topic is that you > should avoid > > > - CPU with Intel® vPro Technology (so say good buy to: > http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?s=t=MBL; > VProTechnology=true) > > > and > > - Intel wireless cards (use Atheros instead) > > There are also three versions of Intel ME (Management > Engine), Commercial and Consumer. They are both bad but > consumer version is crippled one (less bad). I'm not sure how > can someone pick one or the other but it would be nice to > know. > > Potentially deadliest combination (privacy wise) is: CPU > with vPro Technology+Intel wireless card+Intel ME > (commercial version) > > > It would be nice if someone could confirm(or deny) this and > add some more information regarding other hardware here. > > Thaks > > > > > This thread is about hardware *requirements* for 4.0, not hardware > > that it would be prudent to avoid for various reasons. > > > > > > Well, I'm sorry for spamming here then but one could easily think > > that avoiding "bad hardware" should be exactly the requirement for > > this OS?! > > > > I'm simply pointing out that your message is not directly relevant to > this thread. There are already lots of other threads on vPRO, Intel > ME, etc. You're free to join those discussions or even start your own > thread, if you like. > > "Bad hardware" is a controversial topic. Not everyone agrees on what > hardware is "bad" or even what exactly "bad" means in this context. > Arguably, there is no hardware currently available that is not "bad." > (Go read Joanna's papers and blog if you're not already convinced of > this.) If we're going to use computers at all right now, we're going > to have to accept hardware that is, to a not insignificant degree, > bad. It's unavoidable (for now). > > Can we, nonetheless, try to minimize the badness? We certainly can, > and that's an admirable pursuit. Are we going to set, as a minimum > requirement for Qubes, the elimination of all badness that can > possibly be eliminated? No, since we realize that the perfect can be > the enemy of the good. This is the same reason we support USB > kekyboards, for example. Using a USB keyboard is, frankly, a big > security risk. It would be better (less bad) not to use one. But some > of our users have no choice. If they can't use a USB keyboard, they > can't use Qubes at all. Using Qubes with a USB keyboard is still much > better than not using it at all. (At least, we think so. We leave this > determination up to each user rather than making the decision for > them.) We *could* make PS/2 keyboards a minimum requirement of Qubes, > thereby denying access to these people. Likewise, we *could* make the > absence of your list of undesirable hardware components a minimum > requirement of Qubes, thereby denying access to even more people. In > both cases, however, we believe the result would be worse for our > users, so we're not doing it. > > - -- > Andrew David Wong (Axon) > Community Manager, Qubes OS > https://www.qubes-os.org > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXxTZcAAoJENtN07w5UDAwV2cP/2FaOcN9O1DV6GZOQFfAgoLd > uEja4/SVbgPTtE83v9UMVsIDFa8TXtmpZP0RyTH6s/wLr1iuCODTzMalSmyAVv+y > taSSU/DluSrKwfEiuCGraBMOvniDPkFXi4QOtOhPDMvHKjkWEjq+zVcKo0OqLiRe > v5I9le92G4GqUJSIb4l0UkcPKmG+AljdS41u6KlOCuqQuqCGYZj+Z5gVaDzS6gwQ > 9o0xArRiv2vP4eMIIQPjtX+x9sYSNasJVZqy+W4xw+Ftj3AJzpe+8p7MBw1lXM0d > Nz9XERTq+jgxNmoineLTepEfz1fnyZRB0jrm3zwHoviEPOgFPWprtsK4cFx52EVc >
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 2016-08-30 00:05, Darko Vuković wrote: > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 8:54:52 AM UTC+2, Andrew David Wong > wrote: On 2016-08-29 23:41, Darko Vuković wrote: On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 8:26:40 AM UTC+2, Andrew David Wong wrote: On 2016-08-29 21:28, Drew White wrote: >>> On Saturday, 20 August 2016 04:28:16 UTC+10, Andrew >>> David Wong wrote: I don't know enough about the AMD platform to answer definitively, but if I'm interpreting this Twitter exchange correctly, it sounds like you might be right: https://twitter.com/QubesOS/status/756041961203785728 >>> >>> So what are the actual requirements for Qubes 4? >>> The minimum requirements haven't been officially announced yet. (Only the requirements for Qubes Hardware Certification have been). If I understood correctly, one peace of the puzzle is Intel EPT (Extended Page Tables) enabled CPU's. So any laptop/notebook with one of them. >> http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?ExtendedPageTables= >> true=MBL but, what I've managed to find on this topic is that you should avoid - CPU with Intel® vPro Technology (so say good buy to: http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?s=t=MBL; VProTechnology=true) and - Intel wireless cards (use Atheros instead) There are also three versions of Intel ME (Management Engine), Commercial and Consumer. They are both bad but consumer version is crippled one (less bad). I'm not sure how can someone pick one or the other but it would be nice to know. Potentially deadliest combination (privacy wise) is: CPU with vPro Technology+Intel wireless card+Intel ME (commercial version) It would be nice if someone could confirm(or deny) this and add some more information regarding other hardware here. Thaks > > This thread is about hardware *requirements* for 4.0, not hardware > that it would be prudent to avoid for various reasons. > > > Well, I'm sorry for spamming here then but one could easily think > that avoiding "bad hardware" should be exactly the requirement for > this OS?! > I'm simply pointing out that your message is not directly relevant to this thread. There are already lots of other threads on vPRO, Intel ME, etc. You're free to join those discussions or even start your own thread, if you like. "Bad hardware" is a controversial topic. Not everyone agrees on what hardware is "bad" or even what exactly "bad" means in this context. Arguably, there is no hardware currently available that is not "bad." (Go read Joanna's papers and blog if you're not already convinced of this.) If we're going to use computers at all right now, we're going to have to accept hardware that is, to a not insignificant degree, bad. It's unavoidable (for now). Can we, nonetheless, try to minimize the badness? We certainly can, and that's an admirable pursuit. Are we going to set, as a minimum requirement for Qubes, the elimination of all badness that can possibly be eliminated? No, since we realize that the perfect can be the enemy of the good. This is the same reason we support USB kekyboards, for example. Using a USB keyboard is, frankly, a big security risk. It would be better (less bad) not to use one. But some of our users have no choice. If they can't use a USB keyboard, they can't use Qubes at all. Using Qubes with a USB keyboard is still much better than not using it at all. (At least, we think so. We leave this determination up to each user rather than making the decision for them.) We *could* make PS/2 keyboards a minimum requirement of Qubes, thereby denying access to these people. Likewise, we *could* make the absence of your list of undesirable hardware components a minimum requirement of Qubes, thereby denying access to even more people. In both cases, however, we believe the result would be worse for our users, so we're not doing it. - -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXxTZcAAoJENtN07w5UDAwV2cP/2FaOcN9O1DV6GZOQFfAgoLd uEja4/SVbgPTtE83v9UMVsIDFa8TXtmpZP0RyTH6s/wLr1iuCODTzMalSmyAVv+y taSSU/DluSrKwfEiuCGraBMOvniDPkFXi4QOtOhPDMvHKjkWEjq+zVcKo0OqLiRe v5I9le92G4GqUJSIb4l0UkcPKmG+AljdS41u6KlOCuqQuqCGYZj+Z5gVaDzS6gwQ 9o0xArRiv2vP4eMIIQPjtX+x9sYSNasJVZqy+W4xw+Ftj3AJzpe+8p7MBw1lXM0d Nz9XERTq+jgxNmoineLTepEfz1fnyZRB0jrm3zwHoviEPOgFPWprtsK4cFx52EVc GTMFsHdxz4tTW/L6HY3fuZQBxHnWgcLR2Mc5amZgWzRF0N5zsXZZUqmcjpAVDPEe Nqwn/HubLbIEwVwgl4dUfIWe5ku6KukY3MhvRuvuzt4sJOl7x9yj3xOugfgJMox+ Ngi7jJKyLHjIzq/edi8eRAQSooE+7yJbh9VotGKUr23rTNpufspUyMmQXq5dfDeP Dv2OIt26mhC1a2qGqTF024cd5zbNBikp6SUt9wQ647pUzXPPY6+5AegeVOd/WTRj 4IgNtU0xBaWdDPq17+7DlmYrHfAtDczrpgVH88kTjIFgG3SOdFEIlpFDdqMNJwEZ
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
On Tuesday, 30 August 2016 16:26:40 UTC+10, Andrew David Wong wrote: > The minimum requirements haven't been officially announced yet. (Only > the requirements for Qubes Hardware Certification have been). > Well, it would be good to know now, BEFORE the time comes. Because if this PC isn't good enough for it, then I'll leave Qubes behind. I've got 24 thread CPUs with 32 GB RAM multiple SSDs, several Monitors.. Your Windows Tools have NOT been fixed yet either, not since Qubes 2.0. The Qubes Manager has not been fixed, forcing me to make my own for Qubes 3.0/3.1/3.2 I'd love to know what the requirements are now so that I know what is going on and whether it will require me spending thousands of dollars on a new workstation or not. I'd also love to know if the bugs in Qubes are ever going to be fixed, since they have been there since version 2, and I have been reporting them over and over again, and nothing has ever happenned about them (to my knowledge). So I'm just trying to work out if Qubes is actually going to be fully security related or not, whether I'll be able to run it on my X5650 CPUs or not. Whether I will need new ECC RAM or not. Or even if Qubes will work with it or not. And will Qubes be able to handle multiple HDD's on install or not? Or will it still just see the HDDs as 1? Is that a hardware fault/requirement or one that is in the installer itself? I'd love to know the answers to the issues sometimes. And as has stated, will it be requiring some hardware that is not that good? Hope to hear from you sometime regarding the requirements. Not "officially" stating the requirements, but just what's being looked at as the MINIMUM requirements for it will be enough, just to give me an idea of what you will be requiring for the O/S. I was also looking at building Qubes to use on some of my other devices, but as I said, if the hardware isn't up to requirements, then it won't work and not something I will be able to do. Please let me know ASAP. If it is going to be FORCED to HAVE SLAT, then my CPUs aren't going to be able to have Qubes 4. And after you go to Qubes 4, you will not update any previous versions. So the operating system will just become stagnant for most likely 75% of the people that are using it now. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/5753bc11-258c-436f-b3d4-a0bcb30d735c%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 2016-08-29 23:41, Darko Vuković wrote: > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 8:26:40 AM UTC+2, Andrew David Wong > wrote: On 2016-08-29 21:28, Drew White wrote: On Saturday, 20 August 2016 04:28:16 UTC+10, Andrew David Wong wrote: > I don't know enough about the AMD platform to answer > definitively, but if I'm interpreting this Twitter > exchange correctly, it sounds like you might be right: > > https://twitter.com/QubesOS/status/756041961203785728 > So what are the actual requirements for Qubes 4? > > The minimum requirements haven't been officially announced yet. > (Only the requirements for Qubes Hardware Certification have > been). > > > If I understood correctly, one peace of the puzzle is Intel EPT > (Extended Page Tables) enabled CPU's. So any laptop/notebook with > one of them. > >>> http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?ExtendedPageTables= >>> true=MBL > > but, what I've managed to find on this topic is that you should > avoid > > > - CPU with Intel® vPro Technology (so say good buy to: > http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?s=t=MBL; > VProTechnology=true) > > > and > > - Intel wireless cards (use Atheros instead) > > There are also three versions of Intel ME (Management Engine), > Commercial and Consumer. They are both bad but consumer version is > crippled one (less bad). I'm not sure how can someone pick one or > the other but it would be nice to know. > > Potentially deadliest combination (privacy wise) is: CPU with vPro > Technology+Intel wireless card+Intel ME (commercial version) > > > It would be nice if someone could confirm(or deny) this and add > some more information regarding other hardware here. > > Thaks > This thread is about hardware *requirements* for 4.0, not hardware that it would be prudent to avoid for various reasons. - -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXxS2zAAoJENtN07w5UDAwiOMQAL86BKrbyZ1c+uha6duEM2b+ w5XimnFl8AbvFfOEDC9j5m+6KW51HiJ3IASVJRAUCYRrMeqXrdcn7f+lEtsU6tx2 JfNugcTbz4vAZtA57G+HmhrlNs+7o21sROVXeXGCwfSfs9MaFNQ2G8wUus1CbW8z yj8cjzwcItbb437fF4HvAobbxqAjyulwdTmMMj0YjTCNjrOfYIpRb6E6HYajo5e4 4qyNzdA/O7tPnfqC08SOqCUMZWVUm/eqzK8peRlV5QvGHDfiq/Ck/B6I/uORhrMn w1TdcsQmG5nS15uPViMa3c1/729rvIDjp7z3CA10s9jxQ6I7rfJQqsL1uykbL0Bi xgvSbx8MGHUUxiFb51ZXmrlFZFNcATUz7gaxLLGVmnJRUvX/KNjKZcq7BWmy+80l WmK/mab3OmoD0Gx1Pg8bL5BdeKvLDP5QAh5Vb7ArCNcGErlgRzyhm2AcToFsmRej BJEDAvYo2yJXEVeDmzH51sp8sBYdWU5V3WbdgjOG5Vn23UqgtIBWiof3NmHl37OB kqCkn35M+25Pj/dBELEAFA1wAT/AHoOa1Yj63g91uaniDOcDyh+TzPQvj7/wYni5 H0cUMhG+1D0Gd+sHW4pQIf6x9nATHte/yfKoaukTCQ0pYVaIpK+QrlfYsf4Z7mqj SRSFvFsQWIvlpG8roWfL =tbqq -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/ddcfb488-55fe-99e7-bb08-71fabed22508%40qubes-os.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
On Saturday, 20 August 2016 04:28:16 UTC+10, Andrew David Wong wrote: > I don't know enough about the AMD platform to answer definitively, but if I'm > interpreting this Twitter exchange correctly, it sounds like you might be > right: > > https://twitter.com/QubesOS/status/756041961203785728 > So what are the actual requirements for Qubes 4? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/1c6b1399-a354-4f38-9a8d-545541e392eb%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512
On 2016-08-18 05:22, johnyju...@sigaint.org wrote:
> The Qubes security team has written:
>
>> Consequently, we have decided to move to hardware memory virtualization
>> for the upcoming Qubes 4.0 release [4].
>
> And Joanna has written:
>
>> For Qubes 4 we want to move away from using PV as the default method of
>> virtualization in favor of using hw-aided (i.e. SLAT-enforced)
>> virtualization, which currently Xen offers as PVH.
>
> I'm currently on an AMD Athlon system. Does this mean that in order to use
> Qubes 4.0, I will have to upgrade my hardware? ('Cause that would suck. :)
> )
>
> Thanks.
>
> JJ
>
I don't know enough about the AMD platform to answer definitively, but if I'm
interpreting this Twitter exchange correctly, it sounds like you might be right:
https://twitter.com/QubesOS/status/756041961203785728
- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[qubes-users] Qubes 4.0 Hardware Requirements
The Qubes security team has written:
> Consequently, we have decided to move to hardware memory
> virtualization for the upcoming Qubes 4.0 release [4].
And Joanna has written:
> For Qubes 4 we want to move away from using PV as the default
> method of virtualization in favor of using hw-aided (i.e.
> SLAT-enforced) virtualization, which currently Xen offers as PVH.
I'm currently on an AMD Athlon system. Does this mean that in order to
use Qubes 4.0, I will have to upgrade my hardware? ('Cause that would
suck. :) )
Thanks.
JJ
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