Re: [RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I hadn't heard of the 3.5 Vee Speedsters.  I'll have to check those out. 
 A Pugs is still lurking in the back of my mind as a future bike.  

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 4:02:59 PM UTC-6, Tim Gavin wrote:

 FYI, the Surly Black Floyd semi-slicks apparently aren't much faster than 
 Knards.  The 3.5 Vee Speedsters are faster.  I have a friend that rides a 
 SS fat bike on those tires all summer, and I ride a related tire (Mk2) in 
 2.1 on my Schwinn KOM.  

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:00 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: wrote:

 Bob, 

 Good information.  I've ridden one 26 LHT but it was one size too small 
 and stock (ie, skinny tires and drop bars) so that ride really didn't tell 
 me a whole lot about the bike as I would set it up.  Your comment about 
 choosing the Pugs over the LHT is interesting.  I would love to test ride a 
 Pugs with the Black Floyd street tires on it.  I'm torn between a lively 
 bike and a comfortable bike.  Right now I'm riding a 90's Trek Multitrack 
 converted to 26 wheels and I find myself wondering how it compares to an 
 LHT.  The front-end geometry is the same and the chainstays are 3cm 
 shorter.  However, the top tube is smaller than the other main tubes so the 
 ride may be totally different than the LHT.  I'm worried that I'll buy an 
 LHT and then not like it.  I will say my 92 Rockhopper has an oversized top 
 tube and I liked the ride of it but who knows how that compares to an LHT.  



 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-6, Bob Cook wrote:

 I have an LHT with 26 wheels. It is indeed a capable bike. You can load 
 it like a mule and it will ride fine. I've ridden mine on packed dirt, 
 gravel, packed sand, and grassy, pot-holed double-track. No problems, 
 though it's not my first choice—or my second, or my third—for those 
 surfaces if load-bearing isn't required.

 Why? It rides like that mule. It's a pain for climbing and riding into a 
 stiff wind. I'd rather ride my Pugsley into a 25-MPH headwind than my LHT. 
 (I'd rather ride my Homer than either, but Homer does not see winter road 
 salt.)

 If the numbers I've gathered from various sources are correct, the 
 tubing dimensions of the Atlantis are more like the Cross-Check (9-6-9 28.6 
 mm TT) than the LHT (8-5-8 *31.8 mm* TT). If you want something that 
 rides more like an Atlantis, I imagine an old MTB with skinnier tubes, or 
 at least with a skinner TT than DT, would be your best bet.

 --
 Bob Cook

 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:44:05 AM UTC-6, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will 
 be using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm 
 interested in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in 
 each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement 
 with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I 
 have no interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently 
 exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know 
 there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  

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[RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[TomT]

Looks like fun.
I'm there.

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's 
 RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog: 
 http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/ 

 This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group 
 rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those, and 
 try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2 
 http://www.franklinlandtrust.org/d2r2 which just looks like an amazing 
 event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to come 
 over and enjoy the festivities!

  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Deacon Patrick]

Ann ... I'm curious why the Nanos tickle your fancy rather than the Smart 
Sams? For me and what I ride, anyway, the bigger lugs on the Sams are 
beautiful for traction while the center ridge pattern is great for pavement.

With abandon,
Patrick

 

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[RBW] Stolen Atlantis - East Bay

[cyclotourist]

FYI, just saw this: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/4838834529.html



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Re: [RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Deacon Patrick]

Ahhh! Yes, bigger nobbies would be excellent for the Great Divide MTB Trail 
-- but not the Continental Divide Trial. Go figure. Application is 
everything. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:53:10 PM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I guess, because people who ride the Great Divide like the Nanos. And 
 that's mostly gravel roads, some pavement. 

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com 
 javascript: wrote: 
  Ann ... I'm curious why the Nanos tickle your fancy rather than the 
 Smart 
  Sams? For me and what I ride, anyway, the bigger lugs on the Sams are 
  beautiful for traction while the center ridge pattern is great for 
 pavement. 
  
  With abandon, 
  Patrick 
  
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 -- Anne Paulson 

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[cyclotourist]

It'll be a good place to be!

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:21 PM, TomT vel...@gmail.com wrote:

 Looks like fun.
 I'm there.

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's
 RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog:
 http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/

 This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group
 rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those, and
 try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2
 http://www.franklinlandtrust.org/d2r2 which just looks like an amazing
 event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to come
 over and enjoy the festivities!

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[Deacon Patrick]

My wimpy bludgeoned brain couldn't handle the main weekend, but on the off 
chance that we do a trip to SoCal this spring (we consider spring trips to 
escape the slushy spring slop snows that make it so you can't do much of 
anything here), would there be a time better than others to do a mini-group 
ride ahead of March 21? What tire protection would you recommend for 2.1 
Smart Sams and your infamous goat heads?

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:58:04 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 It'll be a good place to be!

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:21 PM, TomT vel...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 Looks like fun.
 I'm there.

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's 
 RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog: 
 http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/ 

 This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group 
 rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those, and 
 try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2 
 http://www.franklinlandtrust.org/d2r2 which just looks like an 
 amazing event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to 
 come over and enjoy the festivities!

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 -- 
 Cheers,
 David

 Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

 it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal



  

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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[dougP]

Chris:

All-rounder covers a lot of sins.  I consider my Atlantis an all rounder 
because it's my daily ride, goes off road well enough for my purposes (like 
you, no single track gnarly MTBing) and I can toss 40 lbs of junk on it 
(and another 10 psi in the tires) and take off on tour.  But there's a ton 
of bikes that'll do all that quite competently.  The LHT is a known 
quantity that should be a competent all rounder.  

As to the differences between a pre-sus MTB and the LHT, I can offer my 
experience with my Atlantis  '90 Fisher HK-II.  The two most noticeable 
differences in handling come from the higher BB on the Fisher and the 
shorter chainstays.  The Atlantis is more comfortable, stable, predicable, 
etc., BUT one needs to keep in mind it's easier to strike a pedal 
off-road.  The higher BB on the MTB translates into more responsive 
handling with more ground clearance; desireable qualities off-road.  OTH, 
the longer chainstays on the Atlantis mean far less fussing around when 
mounting panniers.  I've used a rear rack with panniers on the Fisher, and 
the bags definitely get shoved as far back as possible for foot clearance 
(size 11 feet, not an unusual size).  

The Fisher is clearly a stiffer ride, as one would expect from a bike 
designed to bounce down Mt Tam, etc.  With 2 Schwalbe Marathon Supreme 
tires, it still has gobs of clearance.  There are a fair number of 
braze-ons  I've had front low riders on as well as a rear rack.  Recently 
I discovered it has an odd-ball headset size (1-1/4) so replacement parts 
may be a future issue.  It's TIG welded steel, with no tubing stickers, and 
cost around $500 when I bought it in 1990.  It has decent parts but I'm 
certain there were a gazillion similar bikes produced at the time.  

As a counterpoint, one of my touring buds has a late 90s rigid fork 
Stumpjumper that he has used for touring all over the world.  He's not much 
for off-roading but declares the bike perfectly adequate for daily riding 
and fully loaded touring.  He tours frequently with a couple that both have 
LHTs  love'em dearly.

If you don't plan on a lot of load carrying (but somehow that sneaks up on 
you when it can be done) you might compare the Cross Check to the LHT. Of 
course, right now the coolest all rounder is the Sam Hillborne.used 
ones come up for sale here from time to time.  Food for thought.

dougP  

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 7:44:05 AM UTC-8, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[cyclotourist]

Spring is great time to come out. Weather will be predictably
unpredictable. Last year it was nearly 90 American for the RSR, but damp
and drizly the next weekend. No weekend is better/worse for everyone, so
throw a dart at the calendar and see what happens!

As for tires, I actually ride pretty thin tires and live with the
consequences. Most of my punctures don't need to be replaced in the field,
they end up as slow leaks I need to deal with the next day. The big trick
is knowing what the things look like and trying to avoid them. That means
if you see a patch of green anywhere, try not to ride over it, as it could
be goathead!

Stick with the Sams, maybe run some tubes filled with Stans or Orange Seal.
Stay out of gutters and where any water runoff accumulates and hope for the
best!!!

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:23 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 Thanks, Doug. I'm not worried about the terrain and my ability to ride it,
 just the ability of my tires to handle the goat heads. I see you lot
 constantly fixing flats. I haven't had one since I got the Hunqapillar. Now
 I've said it, I'm doomed. Grin.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Doug. I'm not worried about the terrain and my ability to ride it, 
just the ability of my tires to handle the goat heads. I see you lot 
constantly fixing flats. I haven't had one since I got the Hunqapillar. Now 
I've said it, I'm doomed. Grin. 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Anne Paulson]

I guess, because people who ride the Great Divide like the Nanos. And
that's mostly gravel roads, some pavement.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:
 Ann ... I'm curious why the Nanos tickle your fancy rather than the Smart
 Sams? For me and what I ride, anyway, the bigger lugs on the Sams are
 beautiful for traction while the center ridge pattern is great for pavement.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[dougP]

Patrick:

Check out our Google Group:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/socalallrounders

David, Hugh, Mike, Curtis, Jim et al, plan our local mischief here.  Let us 
know your travel schedule  likely we can work out a ride.  Don't worry 
about the goatheads; those are only allowed in Riverside County.  Based on 
the adventures I've seen you do, you won't have any problems handling our 
challenges.  We love hosting rides for visiting Rivsters, so just post your 
plans.

dougP


On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:06:37 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 My wimpy bludgeoned brain couldn't handle the main weekend, but on the off 
 chance that we do a trip to SoCal this spring (we consider spring trips to 
 escape the slushy spring slop snows that make it so you can't do much of 
 anything here), would there be a time better than others to do a mini-group 
 ride ahead of March 21? What tire protection would you recommend for 2.1 
 Smart Sams and your infamous goat heads?

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:58:04 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 It'll be a good place to be!

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:21 PM, TomT vel...@gmail.com wrote:

 Looks like fun.
 I'm there.

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's 
 RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog: 
 http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/ 

 This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group 
 rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those, and 
 try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2 
 http://www.franklinlandtrust.org/d2r2 which just looks like an 
 amazing event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to 
 come over and enjoy the festivities!

   -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
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 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.




 -- 
 Cheers,
 David

 Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

 it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal



  

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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[Tim Gavin]

I have a similar-era MTB, an '88 Schwinn KOM
http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/Bikes/1988_Schwinn_KOM.html.  It's lugged Tange
Prestige racer, and has the improved (from the Klunkers) NORBA
geometry(71° head
/ 74° seat).  So it's a better all-rounder then the earlier
klunker-inspired frames, but still not great for technical trails.

With the original flat bars, I felt like I rode on top of the bike, with a
upright, cruiser-esque ride.  Since I swapped the cockpit to drop bars
(Nitto B135/Dirt Drop 8/TRP levers/bar-ends), my weight is lower and more
forward, and now the bike is a total dream to ride.  The semi-slick 26x2.1
tires are great for potholed streets, gravel, packed dirt, and yet are
still fast.  Riding a stout MTB frame gives me more confidence jumping
curbs and hopping over potholes that I may steer around on my Riv or
gofast.  Now my KOM is a monstercross 26er, and it regularly steals
riding time from my Riv.

Even with a great bike, it may take some experimentation before it's great
for you.

Some of these vintage designs can make great townie bikes, upright
cruisers, or even drop bar all-rounders.  The second generation (late 80s)
and third generation (early 90s) rigid MTBs seem to make the best
candidates, where the 1st gen bikes (like the 82 Stumpy that started this
discussion) seem best relegated to cruiser duty (or a museum).

I'm refinishing the frame now (and brazing on some rack and fender
eyelets), so the vintage captain america paint job is finally gone.  A bald
eagle shed a tear
http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7bc/797421732_1200263.gif
when that paint was removed, but I think the bike will look awesome with a
clear coat over a bead blast finish, showing off the lugs and brazing.

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RE: [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

And now I’m off to Google “White LMDS”

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 11:31 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

OK, this might be the weirdest winter project I've ever taken on, but I did put 
in some serious design work today, and the concept is actually taking shape.  
This Winter project is that I am going to build my own desmodromic rear 
derailer.  What the heck is that?  A desmodromic mechanism is something that is 
actively driven in all directions.  The most well known desmodromic mechanism, 
and what you'll see if you Google the word desmodromic , is Ducati valves.  A 
rotating cam throws the valve open and another rotating cam throws it closed.  
There is no return spring.  It's driven open and closed.  Some classic old 
French derailers had a loop of cable that, like a push-me-pull-you, would drag 
the derailer to the left and to the right.  The parallelogram had no return 
spring.  Much more recently, White Industries made a desmodromic shifting 
system, called the LMDS (Linear Motion Derailer System).  Look it up, it's 
pretty swank.

So, what I've got scoped out, is that I'm going to take my favorite stock rear 
derailer (RD-M760-GS low normal), remove the spring, and set it up for a 
secondary cable. The actuating mechanism of our modern derailers is a 
parallelogram with a pretty complex geometry.  Those of us used to friction 
shifting with lots of gears can attest to the fact that the derailer responds 
differently at different places in the sweep of the shifter.  For me the 
incredibly sensitive spot is dropping from the biggest cog on the cassette to 
the next one.  You just touch the shifter and it moves.  It's super sensitive.  
I did all the measurements and calculations and now the data tells me why.  The 
geometry of the parallelogram demands it.  So, I need a shifter with a profile 
that isn't round.  It needs to be a profile that complements the geometry of 
the parallelogram of my derailer.  Let's say you want to move the shifter 120 
degrees to sweep all the way from cog 1 to cog 9.  Then, ideally, you want 
every one of those 8 steps to be exactly 15 degrees of movement.  With the 
right shifter profile, that's no problem, if you can do the math, then do the 
design, and then have a manufacturing method that can produce one of them.  
This is where 3D printing comes in.

The really complex math exercise that gets you to the shifter profile that 
pulls the RD-M760-GS in this direction gets repeated once you figure out where 
to put a secondary cable to pull the derailer in that direction.  Those 
profiles need to also have the property that they counterbalance each other so 
you never get even a bit of slack in the cable, allowing you to actuate both 
cables with one shiftlever.  Push me pull you.  That's why White Industries 
made the LMDS on sliders.  They at least made the derailer motion linear, and 
the cable motion linear, so the math wouldn't be so GNARLY.

Me, I don't plan on building a derailer, and I don't mind the math.  Today I 
worked out the GNARLY math and have both cam profiles.  I now need to strong 
arm my brother in law to translate my numbers into a solidworks model.  Once 
that's done, it's trivial to 3D print this weird cammish shifter, and try to 
hook up a DIY desmodromic rear shifting system.  The real key compnent is to 
modify an existing shifter design that has adjustable and equal friction in 
both directions and fits into a really small space.  I'm going to base my 
design on this Cheapo Simplex model.

French AND Cheapohttp://www.ebay.com/itm/like/380734533172?lpid=82chn=ps

If I can emulate that plastic inner shifter piece, but implement my optimal cam 
profile, and figure out a cable fixing mechanism to prevent slipping at the 
shifter, then getting it 3D printed is practically free.

Why do it?  Well, Jan goes on and on how much the rest of the world wastes 
energy pushing against a spring to shift in this direction and having nothing 
to do with the shift in that direction because only the spring is doing it.  I 
just wanted to see what it is he's fussing about.  I don't want to buy a 1930s 
Singer or Herse for $15000, and I don't want to build a totally custom $2 
bike like Jan did, but I do want to explore.  I don't even want to spend the 
$400 it takes to buy a WI LMDS on Ebay.  But, if I can spend $50 and a number 
of hours exploring something in detail that I had previously just taken for 
granted, that amounts to a Winter project for me.

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 at 2:37:11 AM UTC-8, ascpgh wrote:
Riding, besides my commutes, get a bit scant from here on out through winter. 
The season, the holidays, more deliberate prep for a trip in the conditions, 
plenty of things distract from just a nice ride but I realize that at this time 
every year I always seem to 

Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[Montclair BobbyB]

They call him *Andy StumpPuller Cheatham... Beast of the Alleghenies.*.. 
haven't heard of too many people busting a Stumpy chainstay. 
Consider yourself fortunate, I have several friends who more recently had 
less fortunate dealings with Specialized to warrant busted frames.

I did want to make an observation about the 25th Anniversary Edition of the 
Stumpy... Great concept (good for Specialized!).  While the frames looked 
simply awesome and the attention to detail was mostly there, I was deeply 
disappointed with the components selection (i.e. newer style cranks, 
derailleurs, etc.)... those you can get anywhere.  I would have probably 
plopped down the $$ for one if Specialized had created a true (and 
complete) replica (and I believe it would have been a bigger hit had they 
somehow managed to find period-specific componentry for it... which I 
realize may have been a tall order).  But something was clearly lost in the 
modernization of this, sorry to say...

 

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 6:01:37 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:

 I had a '89 Stumpjumper and broke the right chain stay, spirally from the 
 bridge weld before a year was up, and received a '90 frame on warranty from 
 Morgan Hill. That one was sweet, Tange tubing, their Direct Drive 
 architecture, shorter stays, more departure from CA Klunker geometry. Still 
 a bit unwieldily on the trails of my region (Ozark Mounttains), my '91 
 Bridgestone was so much better handling in that environment.

 Andy Cheatham
 Pittsburgh

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 10:56:57 PM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:

 I remember those days. In '91, I test-rode Stumpjumpers and Rockhoppers. 
 Geometry not as good as the Bridgestones for me. I loved that long 
 Bridgestone TT. (I ended up buying the '91 MB-4, my first big bike 
 purchase. That bike's still going strong today.) The Diamond Backs of those 
 days felt great too, similar to the Bridgestones for me.

  

 Slowly steering this back on-topic, there sure was a lot of fun 
 development of mountain bike geometry between the original Stumpjumpers and 
 the early 90's. It makes those original Stumpjumpers curious specimens. So 
 desirable in some ways, but maybe too archaic to be fun for a lot of people 
 to ride now?



  

 -Original Message- 
 From: Patrick Moore 
 Sent: Jan 8, 2015 6:42 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch 
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow 

 In my experience, the later ones -- early '90s, when they were still steel
 -- are among the best mountain bikes ever; far better IMO than the very
 early ones, which for all their looks handled (to my taste) like pigs. My
 '90 Stumpjumper Comp and '91 SJ Team were truly neutral in handling -- off
 road, they went where you pointed and were neither twitchy nor sluggish. 
 My
 DB Axis Team from the same period handled if possible even nicer. That era
 certainly hit a sweet spot.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Chris Chen wrote:

  A totally different animal, but I just picked up its 10 year younger
  sibling:
 
  https://www.flickr.com/photos/lumachrome/16045975348/
 
  On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
  montcla...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I recently chased a similar '82 Stumpy on eBay (first production run of
  the lugged version) that was in nice shape, all original, and 
 manufactured
  literally 6 months after this TIG model. But IT sold for *(only)* $430,
  which I thought was market price, and yet an excellent investment.
 
  As if this isn't OT enough, I'm going to stray just a bit further...
  there's another early mountain bike on eBay (Univega Alpina Uno) with a
  bi-plane fork crown, (and a solid buy IMO) where the ad (*serious but
  funny*) reads with Rivendell Style Fork). I thought *WOW,... Now if I
  could only find an original '83 Rivendell in decent shape...*
 
  Univega Alpina Uno (w/Riv Style Fork)
  
 
  On Thursday, January 8, 2015 7:44:30 AM UTC-5, Dave Nawrocki wrote:
 
  As I was looking at this bike it occurred to me that i recognized it.
  It is way up high in the Lees cycle shop on Harmony road here in Ft.
  Collins.
  I have stood and stared at it.
 
  Dave Nawrocki
  Ft. Collins, CO
 
  --
  *From: *Chris Chen 
  *To: *rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
  *Sent: *Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:49:32 AM
  *Subject: *[RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow
 
  Not Rivvy, but lugged and totally up most people's alleys but more 
 like
  those $100 water bottles:
 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Specialized-Stumpjumper-
  original-No-3XX-of-500-Vintage-History-Classic-/
  301473293725?pt=US_Bicycles_Frameshash=item463135659d
 
  I don't know whether to laugh or cry
 
  --
  I want the kind of six pack you can't drink. -- Micah
 
 
  --
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  Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
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[RBW] Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with choosing 
a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  

-- 
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RE: [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Wow, Bill.  That is an inspiring (and, for those like me who lack the 
imagination/skills to conceptualize such a thing, humbling)  winter project.  
Pics along the way, please, please, please.  And good luck!

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 11:31 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

OK, this might be the weirdest winter project I've ever taken on, but I did put 
in some serious design work today, and the concept is actually taking shape.  
This Winter project is that I am going to build my own desmodromic rear 
derailer.  What the heck is that?  A desmodromic mechanism is something that is 
actively driven in all directions.  The most well known desmodromic mechanism, 
and what you'll see if you Google the word desmodromic , is Ducati valves.  A 
rotating cam throws the valve open and another rotating cam throws it closed.  
There is no return spring.  It's driven open and closed.  Some classic old 
French derailers had a loop of cable that, like a push-me-pull-you, would drag 
the derailer to the left and to the right.  The parallelogram had no return 
spring.  Much more recently, White Industries made a desmodromic shifting 
system, called the LMDS (Linear Motion Derailer System).  Look it up, it's 
pretty swank.

So, what I've got scoped out, is that I'm going to take my favorite stock rear 
derailer (RD-M760-GS low normal), remove the spring, and set it up for a 
secondary cable. The actuating mechanism of our modern derailers is a 
parallelogram with a pretty complex geometry.  Those of us used to friction 
shifting with lots of gears can attest to the fact that the derailer responds 
differently at different places in the sweep of the shifter.  For me the 
incredibly sensitive spot is dropping from the biggest cog on the cassette to 
the next one.  You just touch the shifter and it moves.  It's super sensitive.  
I did all the measurements and calculations and now the data tells me why.  The 
geometry of the parallelogram demands it.  So, I need a shifter with a profile 
that isn't round.  It needs to be a profile that complements the geometry of 
the parallelogram of my derailer.  Let's say you want to move the shifter 120 
degrees to sweep all the way from cog 1 to cog 9.  Then, ideally, you want 
every one of those 8 steps to be exactly 15 degrees of movement.  With the 
right shifter profile, that's no problem, if you can do the math, then do the 
design, and then have a manufacturing method that can produce one of them.  
This is where 3D printing comes in.

The really complex math exercise that gets you to the shifter profile that 
pulls the RD-M760-GS in this direction gets repeated once you figure out where 
to put a secondary cable to pull the derailer in that direction.  Those 
profiles need to also have the property that they counterbalance each other so 
you never get even a bit of slack in the cable, allowing you to actuate both 
cables with one shiftlever.  Push me pull you.  That's why White Industries 
made the LMDS on sliders.  They at least made the derailer motion linear, and 
the cable motion linear, so the math wouldn't be so GNARLY.

Me, I don't plan on building a derailer, and I don't mind the math.  Today I 
worked out the GNARLY math and have both cam profiles.  I now need to strong 
arm my brother in law to translate my numbers into a solidworks model.  Once 
that's done, it's trivial to 3D print this weird cammish shifter, and try to 
hook up a DIY desmodromic rear shifting system.  The real key compnent is to 
modify an existing shifter design that has adjustable and equal friction in 
both directions and fits into a really small space.  I'm going to base my 
design on this Cheapo Simplex model.

French AND Cheapohttp://www.ebay.com/itm/like/380734533172?lpid=82chn=ps

If I can emulate that plastic inner shifter piece, but implement my optimal cam 
profile, and figure out a cable fixing mechanism to prevent slipping at the 
shifter, then getting it 3D printed is practically free.

Why do it?  Well, Jan goes on and on how much the rest of the world wastes 
energy pushing against a spring to shift in this direction and having nothing 
to do with the shift in that direction because only the spring is doing it.  I 
just wanted to see what it is he's fussing about.  I don't want to buy a 1930s 
Singer or Herse for $15000, and I don't want to build a totally custom $2 
bike like Jan did, but I do want to explore.  I don't even want to spend the 
$400 it takes to buy a WI LMDS on Ebay.  But, if I can spend $50 and a number 
of hours exploring something in detail that I had previously just taken for 
granted, that amounts to a Winter project for me.

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 at 2:37:11 AM UTC-8, ascpgh wrote:
Riding, besides my commutes, get a bit scant from here on out through winter. 
The season, the 

[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Kieran J]

To my knowledge, a vintage MTB from the late '80s would differ from the LHT 
in terms of having a higher bottom bracket and most likely fairly slack 
seat and head tubes. Depending on the frame's geometry, it may ride well on 
the road and it may not. There have been differing reports in both 
directions.

Many of those older MTBs had fender/rack mount points and clearance for 
wide tires, so similar to the LHT in that sense. Moving into the 90's, MTB 
geo started to change towards the compact mountain angles (including front 
suspension-corrected geo) as opposed to the more touring type of thing that 
characterized the early Stumps and the like.

KJ


On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The plan right now is to go with the LHT but I want to cover all my bases 
and make sure I don't miss anything in an older bike.  

I would set mine up similar to this one:


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Cpmw_rNN3SQ/VLAp0qj-EUI/ADw/hjOHCCu209c/s1600/A%2B52cm%2BLHT%2B%283%29%2B52cm.JPG






On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 12:38:24 PM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 While I love the Stumpies, I also love the LHT 26 disc version, and built 
 one up for my brother.  This is such a cool bike that you can do so much 
 with... This one is a 2x8 all internal-geared commuter.  Solid as a 
 rock,wide gear range and hydraulic discs; this is one seriously capable 
 bike. 


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jkONK0z2KfI/VLAfdhNT_XI/E3U/GRLVHRZJg4c/s1600/8503972004_dafb6ad887_h.jpg


 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement 
 with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I 
 have no interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently 
 exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  



-- 
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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Bill Lindsay]

## agonizingly forced metaphor sequence INITIATE ##

It's like picking a restaurant in an unknown city.  

If you find a Chipotle, you know exactly what you'll get and it'll be 
pretty good.  
If you pick a restaurant at random, you might get total crap, and you might 
get the meal of your life

A 26 LHT is Chipotle.  A vintage mountain bike is a roll of the dice.  

## agonizingly force metaphor sequence TERMINATE ##

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 7:44:05 AM UTC-8, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


-- 
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Owners Bunch group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks Tom. 

Related WTB.  Does anybody want to sell me a BB cable guide that will 
accommodate 3 cables?  

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 7:44:07 AM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:

  Wow, Bill.  That is an inspiring (and, for those like me who lack the 
 imagination/skills to conceptualize such a thing, humbling)  winter 
 project.  Pics along the way, please, please, please.  And good luck! 

  

 *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Bill Lindsay
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2015 11:31 PM
 *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:
 *Subject:* [RBW] Re: What's your winter project?

  
  
 OK, this might be the weirdest winter project I've ever taken on, but I 
 did put in some serious design work today, and the concept is actually 
 taking shape.  This Winter project is that I am going to build my own 
 desmodromic rear derailer.  What the heck is that?  A desmodromic mechanism 
 is something that is actively driven in all directions.  The most well 
 known desmodromic mechanism, and what you'll see if you Google the word 
 desmodromic , is Ducati valves.  A rotating cam throws the valve open and 
 another rotating cam throws it closed.  There is no return spring.  It's 
 driven open and closed.  Some classic old French derailers had a loop of 
 cable that, like a push-me-pull-you, would drag the derailer to the left 
 and to the right.  The parallelogram had no return spring.  Much more 
 recently, White Industries made a desmodromic shifting system, called the 
 LMDS (Linear Motion Derailer System).  Look it up, it's pretty swank.  

 So, what I've got scoped out, is that I'm going to take my favorite stock 
 rear derailer (RD-M760-GS low normal), remove the spring, and set it up for 
 a secondary cable. The actuating mechanism of our modern derailers is a 
 parallelogram with a pretty complex geometry.  Those of us used to friction 
 shifting with lots of gears can attest to the fact that the derailer 
 responds differently at different places in the sweep of the shifter.  For 
 me the incredibly sensitive spot is dropping from the biggest cog on the 
 cassette to the next one.  You just touch the shifter and it moves.  It's 
 super sensitive.  I did all the measurements and calculations and now the 
 data tells me why.  The geometry of the parallelogram demands it.  So, I 
 need a shifter with a profile that isn't round.  It needs to be a profile 
 that complements the geometry of the parallelogram of my derailer.  Let's 
 say you want to move the shifter 120 degrees to sweep all the way from cog 
 1 to cog 9.  Then, ideally, you want every one of those 8 steps to be 
 exactly 15 degrees of movement.  With the right shifter profile, that's no 
 problem, if you can do the math, then do the design, and then have a 
 manufacturing method that can produce one of them.  This is where 3D 
 printing comes in.  

 The really complex math exercise that gets you to the shifter profile that 
 pulls the RD-M760-GS in *this *direction gets repeated once you figure 
 out where to put a secondary cable to pull the derailer in *that *direction.  
 Those profiles need to also have the property that they counterbalance each 
 other so you never get even a bit of slack in the cable, allowing you to 
 actuate both cables with one shiftlever.  Push me pull you.  That's why 
 White Industries made the LMDS on sliders.  They at least made the derailer 
 motion linear, and the cable motion linear, so the math wouldn't be so 
 GNARLY.  

 Me, I don't plan on building a derailer, and I don't mind the math.  Today 
 I worked out the GNARLY math and have both cam profiles.  I now need to 
 strong arm my brother in law to translate my numbers into a solidworks 
 model.  Once that's done, it's trivial to 3D print this weird cammish 
 shifter, and try to hook up a DIY desmodromic rear shifting system.  The 
 real key compnent is to modify an existing shifter design that has 
 adjustable and equal friction in both directions and fits into a really 
 small space.  I'm going to base my design on this Cheapo Simplex model.  

 French AND Cheapo 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/380734533172?lpid=82chn=ps

 If I can emulate that plastic inner shifter piece, but implement my 
 optimal cam profile, and figure out a cable fixing mechanism to prevent 
 slipping at the shifter, then getting it 3D printed is practically free.  

 Why do it?  Well, Jan goes on and on how much the rest of the world wastes 
 energy pushing against a spring to shift in this direction and having 
 nothing to do with the shift in that direction because only the spring is 
 doing it.  I just wanted to see what it is he's fussing about.  I don't 
 want to buy a 1930s Singer or Herse for $15000, and I don't want to build a 
 totally custom $2 bike like Jan did, but I do want to explore.  I don't 
 even want to spend the $400 it takes to buy a WI LMDS on Ebay.  But, if I 
 can spend $50 and a 

[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Montclair BobbyB]

While I love the Stumpies, I also love the LHT 26 disc version, and built 
one up for my brother.  This is such a cool bike that you can do so much 
with... This one is a 2x8 all internal-geared commuter.  Solid as a 
rock,wide gear range and hydraulic discs; this is one seriously capable 
bike. 

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jkONK0z2KfI/VLAfdhNT_XI/E3U/GRLVHRZJg4c/s1600/8503972004_dafb6ad887_h.jpg


On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Charlie]

I have used a SURLY CrossCheck with the 700c *Bruce Gordon*Rock n' Road 
Tires  

for a vacation bike that was carried in a truck to use wherever I happened 
to be, paved road - gravel bike trail or whatever was available where I was 
to ride on.

 SOMA has a similar frame. 

Charlie Petry

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[Mike Schiller]

hey maybe the Pizza place could cater the post ride food!   

~mike

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 7:43:47 PM UTC-8, James Warren wrote:

 And my favorite pizza on the planet! In downtown Redlands.

 -Original Message- 
 From: dougP 
 Sent: Jan 8, 2015 5:35 PM 
 To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: 
 Subject: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa 

 While I couldn't ride the event last year, my wife  I rode our Atlantii 
 around town, enjoying the small town community feel of Redlands. Of 
 course, we stayed for the festivities and chatter with the hardy souls who 
 did the ride. Great people, a good cause  some serious bike oggling to do 
 while tipping a pint of the Inland Empire's finest brew. 

 Those in the know bring extra tubes, patches, a real pump and maybe use 
 slimy stuff. It's a perfect chance to try any new  exiting multi-surface 
 tires you may have been lusting after. 

 dougP

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
  The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's 
  RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog: 
  http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/ 
 
  This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group 
  rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those, 
 and 
  try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2 
  which just looks like an amazing 
  event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to come 
  over and enjoy the festivities!
 
  It's a 100km mixed-terrain ride in Inland SoCal. This year we are going 
 to 
  add a 50km half-metric route as well. Both routes are very doable if 
 you're 
  used to riding that particular distance. There will be some singletrack 
 and 
  a little bit of busy road, but the VAST majority of each will be on dirt 
  fire roads and paved back country roads. 
 
  There were 135 riders last year, and we're hoping to grow it to 200 this 
  year. It's NOT a race, but definitely more than a parade, and from my 
  position there is a fantastic fun vibe permeating the event. Many of the 
  SoCal usual suspects came over last year, and it definitely has a 
  Rivendell-friendly feel to it. Super-fast roadies, dual-sus MTBers, 
  Albatross-riding Rivenistas, professional cyclocross racers and local 
 high 
  school kids. Just everybody having a good time on a bike! Pics from last 
  year do get you inspired: 
  https://www.flickr.com/groups/redlands-strada-rossa/
 
  In order to make it more of an event, this year we are adding on a 
 Friday 
  night party, and a second ride up in the hills on Sunday. So if you're 
  tempted to come out for the day, consider coming out early and/or 
 staying 
  late! There are motels and business hotels in town, but we can probably 
  scare up a sofa or a back room somewhere as well. And it's definitely 
  family friendly. Non-riding family members and significant others should 
  have a full day exploring the down/area, as well as enjoying the 
 post-ride 
  party with vegi/vegan food, kegs and live music. 
 
  The Inland Empire Bicycling Alliance who 
  oversees the event is going to be charging $25 for it. Technically it's 
 not 
  for the event itself, but for membership in the their non-profit. This 
  keeps it as a club-member event which helps with insurance as well as 
  advocacy. Nobody is trying to get rich from this, and your money is 
 going 
  to support a group that does a LOT of good in the IE. Here's their FB 
 page 
  if you want to see more of what they're about: 
  
 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Inland-Empire-Biking-Alliance/156207984434074 
  
 
  Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions!!! I hope to 
  see a bunch of you in March!
 
  -- 
  Cheers,
  David
 
  Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
 
  it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal
 
 
 
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Jim Bronson]

I have a 22 1992 Cannondale M500 that I have thought about converting
to an all-rounder (and 650b) but it's definitely not steel.  I bought
this bike new when I was in college.  I think it's 130 frame spaced
which helps.  It already has a nice silver crankset.  Needs a
periscope stem and drop bars, oh and a new wheelset, what the hey it's
only money right?  Can re-use 7 speed indexed drivetrain probably,
although thumbies have to go.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Charlie charliepe...@verizon.net wrote:
 I have used a SURLY CrossCheck with the 700c Bruce Gordon

 Rock n' Road Tires


 for a vacation bike that was carried in a truck to use wherever I happened
 to be, paved road - gravel bike trail or whatever was available where I was
 to ride on.

  SOMA has a similar frame.

 Charlie Petry

 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.

 --
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-- 
Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

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Re: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

[cyclotourist]

I could get behind that!

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com
wrote:

 hey maybe the Pizza place could cater the post ride food!

 ~mike

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 7:43:47 PM UTC-8, James Warren wrote:

 And my favorite pizza on the planet! In downtown Redlands.

 -Original Message-
 From: dougP
 Sent: Jan 8, 2015 5:35 PM
 To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
 Subject: [RBW] Re: 2015 Redlands Strada Rossa

 While I couldn't ride the event last year, my wife  I rode our Atlantii
 around town, enjoying the small town community feel of Redlands. Of
 course, we stayed for the festivities and chatter with the hardy souls
 who
 did the ride. Great people, a good cause  some serious bike oggling to
 do
 while tipping a pint of the Inland Empire's finest brew.

 Those in the know bring extra tubes, patches, a real pump and maybe use
 slimy stuff. It's a perfect chance to try any new  exiting multi-surface
 tires you may have been lusting after.

 dougP

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 2:49:01 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  The powers that be just finalized the dates and times for this spring's
  RSR: March 21st! Up to date info on the official RSR blog:
  http://redlands-strada-rossa.blogspot.com/
 
  This event is directly inspired from the great social RBW-Google Group
  rides we have been doing here in SoCal. I wanted to expand upon those,
 and
  try to morph those with something similar to the D2R2
  which just looks like an amazing
  event. The RSR is the result, and you are all cordially invited to come
  over and enjoy the festivities!
 
  It's a 100km mixed-terrain ride in Inland SoCal. This year we are going
 to
  add a 50km half-metric route as well. Both routes are very doable if
 you're
  used to riding that particular distance. There will be some singletrack
 and
  a little bit of busy road, but the VAST majority of each will be on
 dirt
  fire roads and paved back country roads.
 
  There were 135 riders last year, and we're hoping to grow it to 200
 this
  year. It's NOT a race, but definitely more than a parade, and from my
  position there is a fantastic fun vibe permeating the event. Many of
 the
  SoCal usual suspects came over last year, and it definitely has a
  Rivendell-friendly feel to it. Super-fast roadies, dual-sus MTBers,
  Albatross-riding Rivenistas, professional cyclocross racers and local
 high
  school kids. Just everybody having a good time on a bike! Pics from
 last
  year do get you inspired:
  https://www.flickr.com/groups/redlands-strada-rossa/
 
  In order to make it more of an event, this year we are adding on a
 Friday
  night party, and a second ride up in the hills on Sunday. So if you're
  tempted to come out for the day, consider coming out early and/or
 staying
  late! There are motels and business hotels in town, but we can probably
  scare up a sofa or a back room somewhere as well. And it's definitely
  family friendly. Non-riding family members and significant others
 should
  have a full day exploring the down/area, as well as enjoying the
 post-ride
  party with vegi/vegan food, kegs and live music.
 
  The Inland Empire Bicycling Alliance who
  oversees the event is going to be charging $25 for it. Technically it's
 not
  for the event itself, but for membership in the their non-profit. This
  keeps it as a club-member event which helps with insurance as well as
  advocacy. Nobody is trying to get rich from this, and your money is
 going
  to support a group that does a LOT of good in the IE. Here's their FB
 page
  if you want to see more of what they're about:
  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Inland-Empire-Biking-
 Alliance/156207984434074
 
 
  Please feel free to contact me directly with any questions!!! I hope to
  see a bunch of you in March!
 
  --
  Cheers,
  David
 
  Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
 
  it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal
 
 
 
 

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-- 
Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: Coldest Ride on a Rivendell Ever?

[Marc Irwin]

Helmets off to you!  You are the personification of Rule #9. 
http://rundan2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/the-rules.pdf The lowest 
I've gotten is last year.  I rode my Hunq in -35F windchill, but just a few 
miles to have lunch and back.  The scary part was realizing I could not 
feel the difference between that and more temperate +10-15F.  It only takes 
a few minutes of exposure. 

Marc

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Over the holidays I got a hair-brained idea to try a really long, cold 
 ride. 165km door-to-door from my apartment to my parents cabin for 
 Christmas. I'd bring my 4-season tent and a new (to me) -30 sleeping bag 
 along and try sleeping out on the frozen lake. I'd done it before in a 
 quinzee, but was eager to try a tent.

 The temperature was hovering around -12C for most of the week, so I felt 
 really good about it. Then the day before, everything changed. 

 Temperature: -30C, and -40C with the windchill. That's the point where 
 celcius and farenheit meet! The ride would be nearly entirely across the 
 open prairies, so it would be windy. And cold. Very cold. It was too late 
 to back out though, I had told too many people I was going to do it no 
 matter what!

 Here's the Atlantis kitted up for the rid


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sqXhgL0B7_o/VK6j79NsbLI/JPs/laj-YUT9DoY/s1600/DSC_0143.jpg

 I had a North Face 4-season winter tent in one pannier. A North Face -30C 
 sleeping bag in the other. Carradice bag had spare/dry mitts, hat, down 
 jacket, etc. Front bag had camera, food and a pile of chemical hand/toe 
 warmers. 

 Here's a photo a family member took of me while I was about 45km into the 
 ride. She had just asked me if I was having fun. 


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w7B0Z1THRG4/VK6kIGvURUI/JP0/2ItIledp7Ho/s1600/DSC_0187.jpg


 And a few more from the ride. 


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tmkaUJn9Tlk/VK6itmfCdTI/JPE/tjawN72KYZQ/s1600/DSC_0159.jpg


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ddyyOU7Qq5Y/VK6izR2jl7I/JPM/d3HDei6RxAw/s1600/DSC_0180.jpg


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YAuZ70UNjak/VK6i3w7Ul9I/JPU/Fe6VCgePwJ4/s1600/DSC_0194.jpg


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bUJ4WKBd9ek/VK6i9WoSLCI/JPc/XTabLEyehKo/s1600/DSC_0259.jpg


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_JsCOMXyQqU/VK6jBf77VoI/JPk/G1sZtCo5OkY/s1600/DSC_0273.jpg

 In the end I only made it halfway there. 85km later my toes had finally 
 frozen solid, and the sun was starting to get pretty low. I was riding with 
 my dad, who's face had begun to blister and turn white from frostbite. We 
 were out for 5 hours. Later in the week, I was in the emergency room for a 
 minor cut and met two people who had turned their hands completely black 
 from exposure on that day, after being outside less than 10 minutes each. I 
 felt pretty good about my 5 hours.

 When I arrived at the cabin, the warmth of the fire and blankets was too 
 much to overcome. I spent the night warm and toasty, which I do not regret 
 at all.

 I'm going to attempt a much shorter overnight in a few weeks though, so I 
 can test out the winter camping gear. 

 Get out there!



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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[Chris Chen]

I love the KOM! I'm going to be putting a dirt drop stem on the StumpJumper
Comp (I think I'll name him Chompy) with some 46 noodles I also have a set
of Moustache bars which may also give me that in the drops feel. I think
it'll be crazy little shredder. The frame was for sale at a local store for
$75.

I'm remembering one of the older Riv Readers where the writer bought a $100
Team America schwinn MTB and rode it across the country. Just love those
stories; kind of brings it back home.

cc

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Tim Gavin tim.ga...@littlevillagemag.com
wrote:

 I have a similar-era MTB, an '88 Schwinn KOM
 http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/Bikes/1988_Schwinn_KOM.html.  It's lugged
 Tange Prestige racer, and has the improved (from the Klunkers) NORBA
 geometry(71° head / 74° seat).  So it's a better all-rounder then the
 earlier klunker-inspired frames, but still not great for technical trails.

 With the original flat bars, I felt like I rode on top of the bike, with a
 upright, cruiser-esque ride.  Since I swapped the cockpit to drop bars
 (Nitto B135/Dirt Drop 8/TRP levers/bar-ends), my weight is lower and more
 forward, and now the bike is a total dream to ride.  The semi-slick 26x2.1
 tires are great for potholed streets, gravel, packed dirt, and yet are
 still fast.  Riding a stout MTB frame gives me more confidence jumping
 curbs and hopping over potholes that I may steer around on my Riv or
 gofast.  Now my KOM is a monstercross 26er, and it regularly steals
 riding time from my Riv.

 Even with a great bike, it may take some experimentation before it's great
 for you.

 Some of these vintage designs can make great townie bikes, upright
 cruisers, or even drop bar all-rounders.  The second generation (late 80s)
 and third generation (early 90s) rigid MTBs seem to make the best
 candidates, where the 1st gen bikes (like the 82 Stumpy that started this
 discussion) seem best relegated to cruiser duty (or a museum).

 I'm refinishing the frame now (and brazing on some rack and fender
 eyelets), so the vintage captain america paint job is finally gone.  A bald
 eagle shed a tear
 http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7bc/797421732_1200263.gif
 when that paint was removed, but I think the bike will look awesome with a
 clear coat over a bead blast finish, showing off the lugs and brazing.

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I want the kind of six pack you can't drink. -- Micah

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Re: [RBW] Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Tim Gavin]

A vintage MTB is a gamble, it may be a dud or it may be a jackpot.

Pros:
*Good steel* -- Back when steel was king, the top-end bikes had fantastic
tubing, as good as anything today.  (FYI, surface rust and scratches can be
blasted out.  Blast and powder coat costs ~$200).
For a lively ride, get a race-intended model (top-end Stumpjumpers, MB-1 or
MB-0, Paramount PDG 70/90, Trek 9xx series, etc).  HT Tange Prestige is
primo.
For a stouter ride (like the LHT), get a mid-range model (lower-end
Stumpys, Rockhopper, lower MBs, Trek 8xx series, and similar).
*Easy to mount racks* -- most steel MTBs have tons of eyelets (except some
of the raciest models), and the Nitto M12 is perfect for canti forks.

Cons:
*High BB* -- you'll sit taller on the bike.  The handling will suffer
compared to a lower BB like an LHT or Riv.  In my experience, converting
the vintage MTB to drop bars helps a lot to move your weight lower, but
you'll still notice the high BB.
*Weird geo* -- Vintage MTBs often have long top tubes and sometimes weird
angles.
The earlier you go (early to mid 80s), the bikes are klunker-inspired and
may suck for anything but casual use.  Unfortunately, most lugged MTBs are
klunkers.  The lugged era ended around the late 80s, just when they were
improving the geometry.
Late 80s to early 90s are a better bet, from NORBA geometry up to (but not
including) front suspension bikes.  Bridgestones seem to have the best geo
(thanks, Grant), but the good MBs are overpriced unicorns now.  Did I
mention that vintage MTBs are a gamble?

Do you want a heavily loaded tourer, and are OK with a stout, less lively
frame?  If so, the LHT is hard to beat, since it's ready to go for loaded
touring.  Setting up a vintage MTB may involve some headaches and
workarounds.

If you get lucky (like I did), you may find a vintage MTB with very high
end tubing for little coin.  My KOM is heat treated Tange prestige, my
size, and I got it for $75.  With my weight (220#), the frame feels lighter
and more lively than most mid-range vintage MTBs.

Keep an eye out for top-end vintage frames.  But it may take a while to
score a great one in your size for a nice price.

There are some primo alternatives between the price of the LHT and a Riv,
especially if you have the components and are just looking for a frame.
For example, you can get a wonderful Gunnar frame and fork for the price of
the LHT (Gunnars are handbuilt in Waterford, WI, and are almost the same as
a Waterford but TIG welded).  Search the list for other reasonably priced
builders.



On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.

 --
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[RBW] Re: Coldest Ride on a Rivendell Ever?

[Bill Lindsay]

I would have given him a Rule #5 to go with that Rule #9.  

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:00:45 AM UTC-8, Marc Irwin wrote:

 Helmets off to you!  You are the personification of Rule #9. 
 http://rundan2011.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/the-rules.pdf The lowest 
 I've gotten is last year.  I rode my Hunq in -35F windchill, but just a few 
 miles to have lunch and back.  The scary part was realizing I could not 
 feel the difference between that and more temperate +10-15F.  It only takes 
 a few minutes of exposure. 

 Marc

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 10:37:46 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Over the holidays I got a hair-brained idea to try a really long, cold 
 ride. 165km door-to-door from my apartment to my parents cabin for 
 Christmas. I'd bring my 4-season tent and a new (to me) -30 sleeping bag 
 along and try sleeping out on the frozen lake. I'd done it before in a 
 quinzee, but was eager to try a tent.

 The temperature was hovering around -12C for most of the week, so I felt 
 really good about it. Then the day before, everything changed. 

 Temperature: -30C, and -40C with the windchill. That's the point where 
 celcius and farenheit meet! The ride would be nearly entirely across the 
 open prairies, so it would be windy. And cold. Very cold. It was too late 
 to back out though, I had told too many people I was going to do it no 
 matter what!

 Here's the Atlantis kitted up for the rid


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sqXhgL0B7_o/VK6j79NsbLI/JPs/laj-YUT9DoY/s1600/DSC_0143.jpg

 I had a North Face 4-season winter tent in one pannier. A North Face -30C 
 sleeping bag in the other. Carradice bag had spare/dry mitts, hat, down 
 jacket, etc. Front bag had camera, food and a pile of chemical hand/toe 
 warmers. 

 Here's a photo a family member took of me while I was about 45km into the 
 ride. She had just asked me if I was having fun. 


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w7B0Z1THRG4/VK6kIGvURUI/JP0/2ItIledp7Ho/s1600/DSC_0187.jpg


 And a few more from the ride. 


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tmkaUJn9Tlk/VK6itmfCdTI/JPE/tjawN72KYZQ/s1600/DSC_0159.jpg


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ddyyOU7Qq5Y/VK6izR2jl7I/JPM/d3HDei6RxAw/s1600/DSC_0180.jpg


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YAuZ70UNjak/VK6i3w7Ul9I/JPU/Fe6VCgePwJ4/s1600/DSC_0194.jpg


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bUJ4WKBd9ek/VK6i9WoSLCI/JPc/XTabLEyehKo/s1600/DSC_0259.jpg


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_JsCOMXyQqU/VK6jBf77VoI/JPk/G1sZtCo5OkY/s1600/DSC_0273.jpg

 In the end I only made it halfway there. 85km later my toes had finally 
 frozen solid, and the sun was starting to get pretty low. I was riding with 
 my dad, who's face had begun to blister and turn white from frostbite. We 
 were out for 5 hours. Later in the week, I was in the emergency room for a 
 minor cut and met two people who had turned their hands completely black 
 from exposure on that day, after being outside less than 10 minutes each. I 
 felt pretty good about my 5 hours.

 When I arrived at the cabin, the warmth of the fire and blankets was too 
 much to overcome. I spent the night warm and toasty, which I do not regret 
 at all.

 I'm going to attempt a much shorter overnight in a few weeks though, so I 
 can test out the winter camping gear. 

 Get out there!



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[RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Mark Reimer]

I have WTB Nano 2.1's on my Atlantis, in 29er though... They RULE. They 
roll very well and have a pretty mellow tread. Enough bite that I can ride 
trails no problem, but mellow enough that I can ride pavement without 
adverse consequence. 

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HC7CcksD-_Q/VLBKtJVc6kI/JQo/H7G-v227u7k/s1600/MarkReimer_OpMuerto-31.jpg


On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 at 10:59:28 AM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 For me tire preference is a funny thing. I generally like to buy cheaper 
 tires (perhaps like most), unless I know exactly what I need for a 
 particular bike in which case I say spare no expense. But when I'm just not 
 sure I much prefer to experiment with cheaper tires (and I have found some 
 that are a great value).  One low-risk, low-cost option I opted for on my 
 Cimarron was the Nashbar Fuel (26' small block knobby) - I have been riding 
 these for the past 6 months or so and have been so far pleased.  For 
 fast-rolling and cushiness I prefer the Schwalbes ( Kojak, Fat Frank or Big 
 Apple...none of which work well in sloppy conditions). But for about $18 
 apiece and with a good balance of all around roll, cushiness AND off-road 
 traction, the Fuels are definitely working well for me.



 On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 4:51:17 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 If you were putting knobbies on an Atlantis, for mixed terrain fun, 
 what tire would you pick? 

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson 

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Anne Paulson]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The WTB Nano looks like just the ticket. It
does come in 26. I think it would fit on my Atlantis, especially if I took
off the fenders.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mark Reimer marknrei...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have WTB Nano 2.1's on my Atlantis, in 29er though... They RULE. They
 roll very well and have a pretty mellow tread. Enough bite that I can ride
 trails no problem, but mellow enough that I can ride pavement without
 adverse consequence.


 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HC7CcksD-_Q/VLBKtJVc6kI/JQo/H7G-v227u7k/s1600/MarkReimer_OpMuerto-31.jpg


 On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 at 10:59:28 AM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 For me tire preference is a funny thing. I generally like to buy cheaper
 tires (perhaps like most), unless I know exactly what I need for a
 particular bike in which case I say spare no expense. But when I'm just not
 sure I much prefer to experiment with cheaper tires (and I have found some
 that are a great value).  One low-risk, low-cost option I opted for on my
 Cimarron was the Nashbar Fuel (26' small block knobby) - I have been riding
 these for the past 6 months or so and have been so far pleased.  For
 fast-rolling and cushiness I prefer the Schwalbes ( Kojak, Fat Frank or Big
 Apple...none of which work well in sloppy conditions). But for about $18
 apiece and with a good balance of all around roll, cushiness AND off-road
 traction, the Fuels are definitely working well for me.



 On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 4:51:17 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 If you were putting knobbies on an Atlantis, for mixed terrain fun,
 what tire would you pick?

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Knobbies for 26 Atlantis

[Mark Reimer]

Sweet. You'll love 'em! I never use the Nano's with fenders. If I could
even find a fender that was big enough, I'd definitely run into some
significant toe-overlap problems.

I have Bruce Gordon Rock N' Roads on now with Velo Orange fenders and the
overlap is already awful. No fault of the tire or fender though, it's just
the nature of the setup.

The good news is that without the fenders, Nano's are great. It turns the
Atlantis into a real go-anywhere ripper!

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for all the suggestions. The WTB Nano looks like just the ticket.
 It does come in 26. I think it would fit on my Atlantis, especially if I
 took off the fenders.

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mark Reimer marknrei...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have WTB Nano 2.1's on my Atlantis, in 29er though... They RULE. They
 roll very well and have a pretty mellow tread. Enough bite that I can ride
 trails no problem, but mellow enough that I can ride pavement without
 adverse consequence.


 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HC7CcksD-_Q/VLBKtJVc6kI/JQo/H7G-v227u7k/s1600/MarkReimer_OpMuerto-31.jpg


 On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 at 10:59:28 AM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB
 wrote:

 For me tire preference is a funny thing. I generally like to buy cheaper
 tires (perhaps like most), unless I know exactly what I need for a
 particular bike in which case I say spare no expense. But when I'm just not
 sure I much prefer to experiment with cheaper tires (and I have found some
 that are a great value).  One low-risk, low-cost option I opted for on my
 Cimarron was the Nashbar Fuel (26' small block knobby) - I have been riding
 these for the past 6 months or so and have been so far pleased.  For
 fast-rolling and cushiness I prefer the Schwalbes ( Kojak, Fat Frank or Big
 Apple...none of which work well in sloppy conditions). But for about $18
 apiece and with a good balance of all around roll, cushiness AND off-road
 traction, the Fuels are definitely working well for me.



 On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 4:51:17 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 If you were putting knobbies on an Atlantis, for mixed terrain fun,
 what tire would you pick?

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Bob, 

Good information.  I've ridden one 26 LHT but it was one size too small 
and stock (ie, skinny tires and drop bars) so that ride really didn't tell 
me a whole lot about the bike as I would set it up.  Your comment about 
choosing the Pugs over the LHT is interesting.  I would love to test ride a 
Pugs with the Black Floyd street tires on it.  I'm torn between a lively 
bike and a comfortable bike.  Right now I'm riding a 90's Trek Multitrack 
converted to 26 wheels and I find myself wondering how it compares to an 
LHT.  The front-end geometry is the same and the chainstays are 3cm 
shorter.  However, the top tube is smaller than the other main tubes so the 
ride may be totally different than the LHT.  I'm worried that I'll buy an 
LHT and then not like it.  I will say my 92 Rockhopper has an oversized top 
tube and I liked the ride of it but who knows how that compares to an LHT.  



On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-6, Bob Cook wrote:

 I have an LHT with 26 wheels. It is indeed a capable bike. You can load 
 it like a mule and it will ride fine. I've ridden mine on packed dirt, 
 gravel, packed sand, and grassy, pot-holed double-track. No problems, 
 though it's not my first choice—or my second, or my third—for those 
 surfaces if load-bearing isn't required.

 Why? It rides like that mule. It's a pain for climbing and riding into a 
 stiff wind. I'd rather ride my Pugsley into a 25-MPH headwind than my LHT. 
 (I'd rather ride my Homer than either, but Homer does not see winter road 
 salt.)

 If the numbers I've gathered from various sources are correct, the tubing 
 dimensions of the Atlantis are more like the Cross-Check (9-6-9 28.6 mm TT) 
 than the LHT (8-5-8 *31.8 mm* TT). If you want something that rides more 
 like an Atlantis, I imagine an old MTB with skinnier tubes, or at least 
 with a skinner TT than DT, would be your best bet.

 --
 Bob Cook

 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:44:05 AM UTC-6, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement 
 with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I 
 have no interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently 
 exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Tim Gavin]

FYI, the Surly Black Floyd semi-slicks apparently aren't much faster than
Knards.  The 3.5 Vee Speedsters are faster.  I have a friend that rides a
SS fat bike on those tires all summer, and I ride a related tire (Mk2) in
2.1 on my Schwinn KOM.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:00 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Bob,

 Good information.  I've ridden one 26 LHT but it was one size too small
 and stock (ie, skinny tires and drop bars) so that ride really didn't tell
 me a whole lot about the bike as I would set it up.  Your comment about
 choosing the Pugs over the LHT is interesting.  I would love to test ride a
 Pugs with the Black Floyd street tires on it.  I'm torn between a lively
 bike and a comfortable bike.  Right now I'm riding a 90's Trek Multitrack
 converted to 26 wheels and I find myself wondering how it compares to an
 LHT.  The front-end geometry is the same and the chainstays are 3cm
 shorter.  However, the top tube is smaller than the other main tubes so the
 ride may be totally different than the LHT.  I'm worried that I'll buy an
 LHT and then not like it.  I will say my 92 Rockhopper has an oversized top
 tube and I liked the ride of it but who knows how that compares to an LHT.



 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-6, Bob Cook wrote:

 I have an LHT with 26 wheels. It is indeed a capable bike. You can load
 it like a mule and it will ride fine. I've ridden mine on packed dirt,
 gravel, packed sand, and grassy, pot-holed double-track. No problems,
 though it's not my first choice—or my second, or my third—for those
 surfaces if load-bearing isn't required.

 Why? It rides like that mule. It's a pain for climbing and riding into a
 stiff wind. I'd rather ride my Pugsley into a 25-MPH headwind than my LHT.
 (I'd rather ride my Homer than either, but Homer does not see winter road
 salt.)

 If the numbers I've gathered from various sources are correct, the tubing
 dimensions of the Atlantis are more like the Cross-Check (9-6-9 28.6 mm TT)
 than the LHT (8-5-8 *31.8 mm* TT). If you want something that rides more
 like an Atlantis, I imagine an old MTB with skinnier tubes, or at least
 with a skinner TT than DT, would be your best bet.

 --
 Bob Cook

 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:44:05 AM UTC-6, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement
 with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I
 have no interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently
 exists.

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.

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[RBW] Re: Parts Purge Continues

[Deacon Patrick]

Peter, Could you please send (off group) tracking info for the brakes? 
Thanks!  (Sorry, folks, off group wasn't functioning). 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[Chris in Redding, Ca.]

Hey All,
I bought an 84 Stumpy Sport new back then. I rode it for over twenty years 
before I killed it. I then bought a rough 84 Stumpy Sport off the local CL 
for $50 and ride it daily. I won't argue about the ride except to say that 
I have always really liked it. I can say for certain that they are 
extraordinarily durable, ride easy, and have an odd ability to ride nicely 
both laden and unladen. No other bike has done that last one for me. This 
is why I am so interested in some of the more recent RBW framesets. I also 
have an early 90's steel Rockhopper hard tail that I like for different 
reasons. They are very different bikes.

Chris
Redding, Ca.

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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Montclair BobbyB]

That's HOT!!!  

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 2:20:06 PM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 The plan right now is to go with the LHT but I want to cover all my bases 
 and make sure I don't miss anything in an older bike.  

 I would set mine up similar to this one:



 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Cpmw_rNN3SQ/VLAp0qj-EUI/ADw/hjOHCCu209c/s1600/A%2B52cm%2BLHT%2B%283%29%2B52cm.JPG






 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 12:38:24 PM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 While I love the Stumpies, I also love the LHT 26 disc version, and 
 built one up for my brother.  This is such a cool bike that you can do so 
 much with... This one is a 2x8 all internal-geared commuter.  Solid as a 
 rock,wide gear range and hydraulic discs; this is one seriously capable 
 bike. 


 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jkONK0z2KfI/VLAfdhNT_XI/E3U/GRLVHRZJg4c/s1600/8503972004_dafb6ad887_h.jpg


 On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement 
 with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I 
 have no interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently 
 exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  



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[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Bob Cook]

I was thinking about tubing differences between the LHT and the Pugs last 
night and this morning as I rode the Pugs into some blistering wind. I 
haven't measured diameters of tubes on the Pugs, but it looks to me like 
the usual configuration, i.e., DT has a larger diameter than TT. The LHT 
has 31.8 mm DT *and* TT. BQ's study of frame stiffness a few years back 
suggested, among other things, that the usual difference in diameter 
between DT and TT contributes to a more responsive ride. The LHT's 
same-diameter DT and TT make it less responsive.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't say the Pugs is lively, but it is just a 
little more responsive to my pedal stroke than the LHT.

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Re: [RBW] Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[James Warren]

Great info from Tim! One minordetail I'lladd regarding the Bridgestone MB's:

From '91 to '94 and I believe1990 as well, all Bridgestones had the sameframe geometry. The MB-6 had the same geometry as the MB-1 or zip. The differences from high end to low end MB'swere in the brands and weights of the tubing and in the components. Any BridgestoneMB from '90 through '93 is an excellent frameset. (In '94, some came with asuspension fork, so you got an excellent frame but maybe not so great a fork.) The MB-4's were especially good in '90 through '93, because they weremostly lugged and/or made with Ritchey tubes, but they were very affordable.

Funny sidenote: In the '92 or '93 catalog, the MB-3 is described as a "no-nonsense" bike. Check out the corresponding language in the '94 catalog, 4th word of the bike's description:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1994/pages/33.htm
-Original Message- From: Tim Gavin Sent: Jan 9, 2015 8:44 AM To: "rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com" Subject: Re: [RBW] Surly LHT vs vintage MTB A vintage MTB is a gamble, it may be a dud or it may be a jackpot.Pros:*Good steel* -- Back when steel was king, the top-end bikes had fantastictubing, as good as anything today. (FYI, surface rust and scratches can beblasted out. Blast and powder coat costs ~$200).For a lively ride, get a race-intended model (top-end Stumpjumpers, MB-1 orMB-0, Paramount PDG 70/90, Trek 9xx series, etc). HT Tange Prestige isprimo.For a stouter ride (like the LHT), get a mid-range model (lower-endStumpys, Rockhopper, lower MBs, Trek 8xx series, and similar).*Easy to mount racks* -- most steel MTBs have tons of eyelets (except someof the raciest models), and the Nitto M12 is perfect for canti forks.Cons:*High BB* -- you'll sit taller on the bike. The handling will suffercompared to a lower BB like an LHT or Riv. In my experience, convertingthe vintage MTB to drop bars helps a lot to move your weight lower, butyou'll still notice the high BB.*Weird geo* -- Vintage MTBs often have long top tubes and sometimes weirdangles.The earlier you go (early to mid 80s), the bikes are klunker-inspired andmay suck for anything but casual use. Unfortunately, most lugged MTBs areklunkers. The lugged era ended around the late 80s, just when they wereimproving the geometry.Late 80s to early 90s are a better bet, from NORBA geometry up to (but notincluding) front suspension bikes. Bridgestones seem to have the best geo(thanks, Grant), but the good MBs are overpriced unicorns now. Did Imention that vintage MTBs are a gamble?Do you want a heavily loaded tourer, and are OK with a stout, less livelyframe? If so, the LHT is hard to beat, since it's ready to go for loadedtouring. Setting up a vintage MTB may involve some headaches andworkarounds.If you get lucky (like I did), you may find a vintage MTB with very highend tubing for little coin. My KOM is heat treated Tange prestige, mysize, and I got it for $75. With my weight (220#), the frame feels lighterand more lively than most mid-range vintage MTBs.Keep an eye out for top-end vintage frames. But it may take a while toscore a great one in your size for a nice price.There are some primo alternatives between the price of the LHT and a Riv,especially if you have the components and are just looking for a frame.For example, you can get a wonderful Gunnar frame and fork for the price ofthe LHT (Gunnars are handbuilt in Waterford, WI, and are almost the same asa Waterford but TIG welded). Search the list for other reasonably pricedbuilders.On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with choosing a 26" LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper? I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track. I have no interest in single-track or "mountain biking" as it currently exists. Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route. I also know there is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 

[RBW] Re: Surly LHT vs vintage MTB

[Bob Cook]

I have an LHT with 26 wheels. It is indeed a capable bike. You can load it 
like a mule and it will ride fine. I've ridden mine on packed dirt, gravel, 
packed sand, and grassy, pot-holed double-track. No problems, though it's 
not my first choice—or my second, or my third—for those surfaces if 
load-bearing isn't required.

Why? It rides like that mule. It's a pain for climbing and riding into a 
stiff wind. I'd rather ride my Pugsley into a 25-MPH headwind than my LHT. 
(I'd rather ride my Homer than either, but Homer does not see winter road 
salt.)

If the numbers I've gathered from various sources are correct, the tubing 
dimensions of the Atlantis are more like the Cross-Check (9-6-9 28.6 mm TT) 
than the LHT (8-5-8 *31.8 mm* TT). If you want something that rides more 
like an Atlantis, I imagine an old MTB with skinnier tubes, or at least 
with a skinner TT than DT, would be your best bet.

--
Bob Cook

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:44:05 AM UTC-6, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 Anyone have any thoughts on positives or negatives associated with 
 choosing a 26 LHT versus a 90's MTB, like a Stumpjumper or Rockhopper?  

 I'm familiar with the geometry differences between the two and I will be 
 using modern components (except for stem if I go vintage) so I'm interested 
 in things like ride quality, the impact of the tubing used in each, etc

 This will be an all-rounder bike that is primarily ridden on pavement with 
 the option to ride on packed dirt, gravel and even double track.  I have no 
 interest in single-track or mountain biking as it currently exists.  

 Riv content is that my bike project is directly inspired by the 56cm 
 Atlantis but I don't have the finances to go that route.  I also know there 
 is a vast amount of experience with this type of bike here.  


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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[David Hays]

Hi Chris,
Can you tell if my friend’s Stumpjumper is a Sport?
Just wondered is I picked it up I could set up like some on road/off road 
Atlantics I see?
Thanks
David
Kenmore, New York

 
 On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Chris in Redding, Ca. campredd...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 Hey All,
 I bought an 84 Stumpy Sport new back then. I rode it for over twenty years 
 before I killed it. I then bought a rough 84 Stumpy Sport off the local CL 
 for $50 and ride it daily. I won't argue about the ride except to say that I 
 have always really liked it. I can say for certain that they are 
 extraordinarily durable, ride easy, and have an odd ability to ride nicely 
 both laden and unladen. No other bike has done that last one for me. This is 
 why I am so interested in some of the more recent RBW framesets. I also have 
 an early 90's steel Rockhopper hard tail that I like for different reasons. 
 They are very different bikes.
 
 Chris
 Redding, Ca.
 
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[RBW] Re: 59cm Roadeo for sale

[Don Compton]

My Roadeo is sold. Thanks for all the interest.

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 at 1:36:40 PM UTC-8, Don Compton wrote:

 I have a 59cm Roadeo, light metallic blue, Campy shifters and deraillers, 
 Tekro brakes, Nitto Noodles, Tallux stem, Crystal seatpost. The wheels are 
 Record hubs with Velocity Aerohead rims in silver and Rolly Polly tires. I 
 am the first owner and live in Lodi, California. The bike has rarely seen 
 rain and has a few scratches, but no dents. $1600 plus shipping, paypal.
 If interested please respond and I will e-mail pictures.
 Don


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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

My reply was meant to be directly to Christopher's post of that pink-ish 
1990's Stumpjumper frameset.  I guess I hit the wrong button.  I have an 
early 90's too-small Rockhopper that is the best riding bike I've ridden so 
far.  That pink-ish Stumpjumper probably has the same geometry but with 
better tubing and it's the right size for me.   Would love to find one of 
those for a reasonable price.  

Having said that, I do like the handling of the earlier 80's MTB's, within 
a specific context.  As an all-rounder bike for mostly pavement riding, 
they are fantastic.  I have very limited experience riding off-road but 
everything mentioned here about those old things being horrible trail 
bikes, I agree with.   



On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-6, Dave Johnston wrote:

 I've ridden a couple MTN bikes from that era both Specialized, one was a 
 Stumpjumper sport and I thought the handling was just terrible. Not a joy 
 to ride. Way high BB and super slack angles just wasn't for me. 

 Does anybody actually like the way these bikes ride? If so I might be able 
 to arrange for you to get that lugged stumpy sport or send you a lead on a 
 great deal on the 25th Anniversary Stumpjumper.

 Dave J

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 7:19:18 PM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:

 That is going to build up to be a damn fine bicycle.   



 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 4:21:45 PM UTC-6, Christopher Chen wrote:

 A totally different animal, but I just picked up its 10 year younger 
 sibling:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/lumachrome/16045975348/

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Montclair BobbyB montcla...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 I recently chased a similar '82 Stumpy on eBay (first production run of 
 the lugged version) that was in nice shape, all original, and manufactured 
 literally 6 months after this TIG model.  But IT sold for *(only)* 
 $430, which I thought was market price, and yet an excellent investment.

 As if this isn't OT enough, I'm going to stray just a bit further... 
 there's another early mountain bike on eBay (Univega Alpina Uno) with a 
 bi-plane fork crown, (and a solid buy IMO) where the ad (*serious but 
 funny*) reads with Rivendell Style Fork).  I thought *WOW,... Now if 
 I could only find an original '83 Rivendell in decent shape...*

 Univega Alpina Uno (w/Riv Style Fork) 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-1983-Univega-Alpina-Uno-19-Steel-Mountain-Bike-Rivendell-Style-Fork-/231442108761?pt=US_Bicycles_Frameshash=item35e3065159

 On Thursday, January 8, 2015 7:44:30 AM UTC-5, Dave Nawrocki wrote:

 As I was looking at this bike it occurred to me that i recognized it.
 It is way up high in the Lees cycle shop on Harmony road here in Ft. 
 Collins.
 I have stood and stared at it.

 Dave Nawrocki
 Ft. Collins, CO

 --
 *From: *Chris Chen cc...@nougat.org
 *To: *rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
 *Sent: *Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:49:32 AM
 *Subject: *[RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

 Not Rivvy, but lugged and totally up most people's alleys but more 
 like those $100 water bottles:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Specialized-Stumpjumper-
 original-No-3XX-of-500-Vintage-History-Classic-/
 301473293725?pt=US_Bicycles_Frameshash=item463135659d

 I don't know whether to laugh or cry

 -- 
 I want the kind of six pack you can't drink. -- Micah


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Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow

[ascpgh]

I had a '89 Stumpjumper and broke the right chain stay, spirally from the 
bridge weld before a year was up, and received a '90 frame on warranty from 
Morgan Hill. That one was sweet, Tange tubing, their Direct Drive 
architecture, shorter stays, more departure from CA Klunker geometry. Still 
a bit unwieldily on the trails of my region (Ozark Mounttains), my '91 
Bridgestone was so much better handling in that environment.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 10:56:57 PM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:

 I remember those days. In '91, I test-rode Stumpjumpers and Rockhoppers. 
 Geometry not as good as the Bridgestones for me. I loved that long 
 Bridgestone TT. (I ended up buying the '91 MB-4, my first big bike 
 purchase. That bike's still going strong today.) The Diamond Backs of those 
 days felt great too, similar to the Bridgestones for me.

  

 Slowly steering this back on-topic, there sure was a lot of fun 
 development of mountain bike geometry between the original Stumpjumpers and 
 the early 90's. It makes those original Stumpjumpers curious specimens. So 
 desirable in some ways, but maybe too archaic to be fun for a lot of people 
 to ride now?



  

 -Original Message- 
 From: Patrick Moore 
 Sent: Jan 8, 2015 6:42 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch 
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow 

 In my experience, the later ones -- early '90s, when they were still steel
 -- are among the best mountain bikes ever; far better IMO than the very
 early ones, which for all their looks handled (to my taste) like pigs. My
 '90 Stumpjumper Comp and '91 SJ Team were truly neutral in handling -- off
 road, they went where you pointed and were neither twitchy nor sluggish. My
 DB Axis Team from the same period handled if possible even nicer. That era
 certainly hit a sweet spot.

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Chris Chen wrote:

  A totally different animal, but I just picked up its 10 year younger
  sibling:
 
  https://www.flickr.com/photos/lumachrome/16045975348/
 
  On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
  montcla...@gmail.com javascript: wrote:
 
  I recently chased a similar '82 Stumpy on eBay (first production run of
  the lugged version) that was in nice shape, all original, and 
 manufactured
  literally 6 months after this TIG model. But IT sold for *(only)* $430,
  which I thought was market price, and yet an excellent investment.
 
  As if this isn't OT enough, I'm going to stray just a bit further...
  there's another early mountain bike on eBay (Univega Alpina Uno) with a
  bi-plane fork crown, (and a solid buy IMO) where the ad (*serious but
  funny*) reads with Rivendell Style Fork). I thought *WOW,... Now if I
  could only find an original '83 Rivendell in decent shape...*
 
  Univega Alpina Uno (w/Riv Style Fork)
  
 
  On Thursday, January 8, 2015 7:44:30 AM UTC-5, Dave Nawrocki wrote:
 
  As I was looking at this bike it occurred to me that i recognized it.
  It is way up high in the Lees cycle shop on Harmony road here in Ft.
  Collins.
  I have stood and stared at it.
 
  Dave Nawrocki
  Ft. Collins, CO
 
  --
  *From: *Chris Chen 
  *To: *rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
  *Sent: *Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:49:32 AM
  *Subject: *[RBW] Wow, I mean, just wow
 
  Not Rivvy, but lugged and totally up most people's alleys but more like
  those $100 water bottles:
 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Specialized-Stumpjumper-
  original-No-3XX-of-500-Vintage-History-Classic-/
  301473293725?pt=US_Bicycles_Frameshash=item463135659d
 
  I don't know whether to laugh or cry
 
  --
  I want the kind of six pack you can't drink. -- Micah
 
 
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[RBW] Re: 59cm Roadeo for sale

[iamkeith]

Oh, thank goodness.  Congrats to you and the buyerand me, for hesitating 
long enough.

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