Re: [RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Joe Bernard]

Btw, Ash (and anyone else), if you want to yak more about my electric build, 
gimme a holler at joeremi 62 at g mail dot com. I could yammer all night about 
this stuff here, but they'd run me outta Rivtown ;-) 

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Orc]

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 3:46:01 PM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Have you considered a “hiking” GPS unit? I rode with a fellow randonneur 
> recently who used a unit something like this:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-eTrex-Waterproof-Hiking-GPS/dp/B3WGP5 
>
> Benefits include no speed display,
>


I don't know if that's necessarily so.  The eTrex 10 looks like it uses the 
standard Garmin OS with geocatching additions, and at least the Garmin 
website shows an eTrex with a very much bike-computer-style 
speed/distance/elevation/time display   (and the eTrex is about a cheap as 
a (used) iPhone, so if you're starting from a blank slate you'd get a 
better GPS receiver in exchange for not having a Unix system in your rando 
bag.)

-david parsons 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa Beach Build

['Ann L' via RBW Owners Bunch]

RichS:  thank you.  The brand for the saddle bag is ArchEnCiel.

On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 at 8:47:10 AM UTC-5, RichS wrote:
>
> Sweet looking San Marcos too! What brand is the small saddlebag?
>
> Yep, Grant is a delight! In my experience, everyone at Riv has been a 
> pleasure to work with.
>
> Best,
> Richard
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 22, 2017, at 8:02 PM, 'Ann L' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> Thank you for the nice comments :) 
>
> I do have another part to the finding a bike story.  My first post was a 
> bit long so pared it down.
>
> When the Appaloosa build came out, I saw the pictures of the butternut 
> frame and was blown away.  But I was extremely happy with my Soma and had 
> no justification for buying another bike, particularly for the kind of 
> riding it was designed for.  When I understood that my Soma was not viable 
> here, I looked back to RBW to see what they had in stock because I knew I 
> wouldn't last long without a bike.  They had a 2016 butternut frame in my 
> size.  I called because I had questions regarding max tire clearance and 
> the projected weight of the bike (I am a small person and have to carry it 
> up three flights of stairs).  It was the afternoon of July 3rd, I called, 
> and it was picked up and I heard "Hello, this is Grant."  I almost dropped 
> the phone.  I did not expect him to answer.  I had called RBW from time to 
> time regarding questions and checking on orders and had dealt with Will or 
> Mark.  I told him how much I had enjoyed my Soma and all the compliments I 
> had gotten over the years, even from the carbon fiber crowd and explained 
> my current situation.  He was super nice (a lot of the staff had left early 
> for the holiday and that was why he answered the phone).  He had all sorts 
> of questions, not only about bikes, but about my job, my move, random 
> stuff.  He wanted to know if considered the Clem.  He said they also had 
> really wide tire capacity and they were expecting a new shipment.  We went 
> back and forth regarding specifications and I kept on going back to the 
> Appaloosa.  There was a point that he saw where my heart was and that is 
> how I ended up with my bike.
>
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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Aaron Russell]

I use the Wahoo Elemnt Bolt and am very satisfied with it. You can
currently get them for $250 (I got mine at REI).

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:

> Have you considered a “hiking” GPS unit? I rode with a fellow randonneur
> recently who used a unit something like this:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-eTrex-Waterproof-Hiking-GPS/dp/B3WGP5
>
> Benefits include no speed display, replaceable AA batteries.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
>
> Wahoo just released a very small computer called the “Elemnt Mini,” that
> uses wireless sensors for speed , cadence, etc. http://www.wahoofitness.
> com/devices/bike-computers The Bolt doesn’t have GPS, but it can pair
> with your phone to offer that functionality.
>
> I use the Wahoo Elemnt ($499 direct from Wahoo) and highly recommend it,
> but I think it’s more than you’re looking for. A smaller version, the
> “Elemnt Bolt,” is available, but it costs $429 and is likely also more of a
> computer than you need.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 2:44 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:
>
> Next in the series (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-
> bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>
> --
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[RBW] S24O C&O Canal

[Pondero]

Brilliant!  That sounds so pleasant.  That might be just the thing for an out 
of town visitor (say, from Texas) who needs to bag an S24O while in town.  One 
of these days...

Chris Johnson 
Sanger, Texas

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[RBW] Re: Medium Mountain Mixtes -- coming any day now

[lconley]

My MMM is supposed to arrive next Wednesday. I will actually be in Florida 
for a week, but will be trying to finish the HHH first. I have only been at 
home about 5 days since the HHH arrived, I tend to take too much time 
agonizing over the proper housing lengths...

Laing


>

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[RBW] Re: What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Sean Cleary]

I always liked traditional wired or wireless computers because they rarely 
died and provided all I really need to know; distance, time of day, average 
speed and the all important odometer.

HOWEVER, I regularly ride 4 bikes and one tandem, some with alternating 
sets of tires that all require unique calibration settings. 

After 20 years of endless calibration each time I changed tires or the 
batteries died, I had it and bought a Garmin Edge 200. It's no longer made 
but similar models are a relatively affordable way to tally mileage from 
multiple bikes without fuss. When I mountain bike, I occasionally scrap a 
day's log because the tree canopy interrupts the GPS signal but other than 
that, for 4 years, it's been an otherwise champion of reliability for the 
price paid.

I personally can't stomach anything much above a hundred dollars for 
computing a bike ride. But I understand the desire for cutting edge 
technology including Wahoo models that display texts. Once a year that 
would be helpful... : )

Sean in Eden Prairie, MN 







On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 4:44:03 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Next in the series (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
> ):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on 
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>

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[RBW] Re: S24O C&O Canal

[Tony DeFilippo]

Looks like a great adventure Erl! So glad you got to do it with your son's.  A 
lockhouse trip seems like a great trip that I'd like to emulate at some point.

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[RBW] Medium Mountain Mixtes -- coming any day now

[WETH]

Congrats Bill. I look forward to photos!

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Joe Bernard]

Ash, I feel ya about ebikes. My first mid-drive was a dedicated ebike from 
Haibike, which was fun, but once the thrill of assisted pedaling wore off I 
became acutely aware that I was riding a basic Chinese aluminum hybrid with a 
boat-anchor suspension fork. Bogus! So I sold that on to the next fellow who 
wasn't quite ready to cobble together his own build and did this. Rivs are 
great; eRivs..also great!

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[RBW] Medium Mountain Mixtes -- coming any day now

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm eagerly anticipating the arrival of a Medium Mountain Mixte.  I need it 
for my 10x200mile challenge.  The BLUG revealed that it will have an 
all-time Rivendell first:  for the first time ever, there will be a stock 
Rivendell with an ARCHED seatstay bridge.  That'll clearly make us much 
faster.  Haha.  OK, it's not a performance thing, but it should make fender 
setup look really nice.  We'll see how that turns out.  I've got a 3x8 
drivetrain ready to go for mine, but in my morning ride meditations, I 
started musing about using a 2x10 drivetrain instead.  I'm still leaning 
towards the 3x8, but it will be a build-day decision.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Joe Bernard]

Thanks, Ryan, the stealthiness is accomplished by putting two Mini Cube 
batteries from lunacycle.com in the TrunkSack. Most of these conversions have 
an huge battery attached to downtube water bottle bosses, which gives more 
range but adds weight and HEY I'M AN EBIKE! 

Ash, check that site for Bafang BBS02 to learn about mid-drive kits. Settle in 
and pop something cold, there's a TON of reading to do there :-)

Here's a few 'final build' shots from today's ride (which I'm still in the 
middle of). I added the basket, a ShopSack, and PDW grips which will eventually 
darken like the Select saddle. The jury is still out on the Bosco Bars: I feel 
WAY far away from the front wheel, and I'm getting some sail effect in 
crosswinds. I'll probably swap my Albas in to see how I like it. Whelp, back to 
the ride!

https://goo.gl/photos/HqvPx24LBJhmVpjv9

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Reed Kennedy]

Sent too soon! I meant to add: One of the great things about the Elemnt is
that you set it up and configure it with your phone, and the app is
actually quite good. You can make it show a whole bunch of data, or only
one or two things.

So, Lum, you could set it up to show only the stuff you're looking for and
not show speed. Nice!


Reed

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Reed Kennedy  wrote:

> We talked about this a bit ago: https://groups.google.
> com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/FaA2YGcIwMo/qy_Ijc8mCgAJ
>
> I sang the praises of the Wahoo Elemnt back then. I still adore my Elemnt,
> so I'll just paste here what I wrote back then:
>
> **
> The only thing I really like using a bike computer for is finding and
> following new routes without stopping to check the way.
>
> The Wahoo Elemnt is really, really great for that. It syncs with
> RideWithGPS and other sites via either your phone or wifi and displays a
> map on a nice black and white screen that is easy to read even in direct
> sunlight.
>
> I could use my iPhone for this, but the Elemnt is easier to read and I
> don't have to worry about running out of battery on my phone, which always
> causes me some anxiety.
>
> The Elemnt also does a great job with speed, Strava, and sensor stuff
> (power, heart rate, cadence, etc) but it turns out I don't care a whole lot
> about most of that stuff most of the time. I bring it with me when I want
> directions and leave it home the rest of the time. I find it far, far nicer
> to interact with than the Garmin I had before, which always felt like work.
>
> Oh, and the Element does track the temperature, which is kind of nice. I
> felt like I wasn't riding so well the other week, and it turned out it was
> over 100 degrees!
> **
>
> Reed
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 2:44 PM, lum gim fong 
> wrote:
>
>> Next in the series (https://groups.google.com/for
>> um/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20rider
>> s%7Csort:relevance):
>>
>> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>>
>> I am looking for minimal features:
>>
>> total distance
>> trip distance
>> climbing feet
>>
>>
>> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
>> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>>
>>
>> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on
>> my bike.*
>>
>> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of
>> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Reed Kennedy]

We talked about this a bit ago:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/FaA2YGcIwMo/qy_Ijc8mCgAJ

I sang the praises of the Wahoo Elemnt back then. I still adore my Elemnt,
so I'll just paste here what I wrote back then:

**
The only thing I really like using a bike computer for is finding and
following new routes without stopping to check the way.

The Wahoo Elemnt is really, really great for that. It syncs with
RideWithGPS and other sites via either your phone or wifi and displays a
map on a nice black and white screen that is easy to read even in direct
sunlight.

I could use my iPhone for this, but the Elemnt is easier to read and I
don't have to worry about running out of battery on my phone, which always
causes me some anxiety.

The Elemnt also does a great job with speed, Strava, and sensor stuff
(power, heart rate, cadence, etc) but it turns out I don't care a whole lot
about most of that stuff most of the time. I bring it with me when I want
directions and leave it home the rest of the time. I find it far, far nicer
to interact with than the Garmin I had before, which always felt like work.

Oh, and the Element does track the temperature, which is kind of nice. I
felt like I wasn't riding so well the other week, and it turned out it was
over 100 degrees!
**

Reed

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 2:44 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> Next in the series (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-
> bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>
> --
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[RBW] Re: What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[islaysteve]

Before I got a smartphone, I was looking into this question myself.  As of 
New Year of this year, I have a smartphone, so problem solved.  I also use 
Map My Ride, but there are other apps of course.  If you don't have a 
smartphone, you might want to look into it and do the dollars and cents 
analysis vs. purchasing a single-purpose GPS unit.  Phones now do so much; 
IMO it's totally worth it to take the plunge.  Just having a decent camera 
in your pocket (or Saddlesack XS) is practically worth it.  YMMV, Steve


On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 5:44:03 PM UTC-4, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Next in the series (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
> ):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on 
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>

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[RBW] Re: S24O C&O Canal

[islaysteve]

Erl, Thanks for the photos and write-up.  It's so great that you can do 
this with your sons!  I have seen the Lockhouse and have wondered what it 
would be like to spend the night there.  "Primitive camping without a tent" 
sounds good to me.  Maybe I will try it someday.  Cheers, Steve


On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 2:22:38 PM UTC-4, WETH wrote:
>
> Yesterday, my sons, a family friend, and I rode 29 miles to a Lockhouse on 
> the C&O canal.  Write-up with photos here: 
> https://lightofferings.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/s24o-to-lockhouse-22/
> Riv content: a Cheviot, a Rosco Bubbe, as well as a Bridgestone RB-1 
> spotted in the wild.
>
> Write-up without photos below:
> For my younger son, each summer should include a camping trip.  For me, 
> each summer should include a bike overnight with my family and a camping 
> trip.  By bending the concept of camping, I attempted to combine both 
> around busy schedules before school started.  We recruited a family friend 
> who has accompanied us on many bike adventures and departed our house 
> riding our bikes.  
>
> After 6 miles, we stopped for an early "lunch" at an ice cream store 
> before continuing down the Capital Crescent trail to Fletcher's Boathouse. 
>  At the boathouse, we picked up the C&O Canal towpath and biked north.  
> http://bikewashington.org/canal/canal_b.php 
>
> The D.C. area has experienced a great deal of much needed rain this 
> summer, so I was apprehensive about the condition of the canal towpath. 
>  The National Park Service has the towpath in great shape, at least miles 
> 3-19 that we rode.  The boys took periodic breaks at a few of the locks and 
> looked for turtles and other wildlife. 
>
> At Great Falls we enjoyed a longer break and a late lunch at the snack 
> bar. 
>
> In addition, I saw a lovely Bridgestone RB1 locked to a rack.  When its 
> owner returned, he told me with great pride that the bike was older than he 
> was. 
>
> Home for the night was Lockhouse 22.  The C&O Canal Trust preserves a few 
> of the remaining LockHouses and rents them out on a nightly basis: 
> http://www.canaltrust.org/programs/canal-quarters/ Most have neither 
> electricity nor indoor plumbing.  There was a picnic table and fire ring 
> behind the house to eat and cook on respectively.  A stream flowed next to 
> the cabin and into the Potomac River about 100 yards away. The day had 
> dawned overcast and humid.  As we rode, a cold front passed by bringing 
> cooler and drier conditions.  The evening was lovely with a hint of Fall in 
> the air.  After hotdogs, baked beans, and s'mores we fell asleep to the 
> sounds of the stream. 
>
> Overall it was a great s24o adventure.  My youngest son said the 
> primitively cabin with a campfire was pretty close to tent camping.  It 
> also spares us from carrying tents.  To save us from retracing our route, 
> my wife picked us and our bikes up in the morning.  One realization for me 
> was that the "boys" are now 17, 16, and 14.  They ride faster and harder 
> than they used to.  And, I ride more leisurely than I used to.  While my 
> stamina in the saddle is still better, I was pushing it to keep up with 
> them over the 27 miles!  Here is an image of our route with mileage. 
>
>

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[RBW] New England Lobstah Riv Roll?

[Daniel Jackson]

Hey Wally,

Grand idea. Particularly like the D2R2 S240 idea if there is a good place to 
spend the night on or near one of the routes in Franklin County. 

I'd be in for 9/9. Glad to help route plan. 

Best,
Daniel in Northern VT

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Ryan Fleming]

barely notice the e-drive; it's quite unobtrusive 

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 10:00:44 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Clem L goes electric.
> "Judas!"
> (Grant will get that one)
>
> I did the deed today and it's fabulous. Honestly it's kind of ridiculous 
> how well this Riv model accepts and works with a mid-drive kit; it's smooth 
> and stable enough to handle the extra weight and speed, and it still turns 
> and stops really well (changing my mind about thinking I need discs). The 
> black kit even "hides" well with this color and the battery in the 
> TrunkSack. I know it's not everyone's cup o' joe, but boy did I appreciate 
> the assist in that killer headwind on the way back from Benicia to Vallejo 
> this evening. (Hi to the guy on the root beer Roadeo at Benicia State Park!)
>
> The last pic isn't lit well, but I wanted to show something I'd never 
> thought of until I owned a step-through..check out the water bottle access. 
> I've never been good at grabbing a bottle while pedaling a diamond frame 
> with upright bars (too far away), but this design puts it way up there in 
> front of you. Nice!
>
> I tend to buy and sell bikes without getting too attached to them, but I 
> think I'm going to keep this one. It's beautiful, does the things I need it 
> to do, and it just fits me. Which brings me to a thought about my (now sold 
> to a happy rider) Appaloosa that hadn't really sunk in until today: It was 
> also beautiful and I loved the ride, but there was always a nagging sense 
> that it was meant to be ridden more and harder than I was up to, like 
> buying a Honda Goldwing touring motorcycle and riding it to 7-Eleven. It 
> wasn't really ME, and Clem L is. Which is probably weird, but that's ok! 
> Thanks for humoring me and looking at my new bike. 
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/J5Y4fDycfG896hNP9
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Jeremy Till]

On downshifts, yes.  Upshifts are still accomplished with one stroke of the 
lever.  

I would say that for being indexed (hiss, boo), these Shimano front 
shifters/derailleurs do work great once properly adjusted (and assuming 
you're using appropriate chainrings), way better than some other major 
manufacturers of shifting systems (cough cough SRAM cough), so I'm willing 
to forgive them the extra step on downshifting.  

Personally, all my bikes with a front derailleur have a friction front 
shifter.  

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 5:35:22 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Wait, you're supposed to shift twice for one chainring??

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Eric Norris]

Have you considered a “hiking” GPS unit? I rode with a fellow randonneur 
recently who used a unit something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-eTrex-Waterproof-Hiking-GPS/dp/B3WGP5 
 

Benefits include no speed display, replaceable AA batteries.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:
> 
> Wahoo just released a very small computer called the “Elemnt Mini,” that uses 
> wireless sensors for speed , cadence, etc. 
> http://www.wahoofitness.com/devices/bike-computers 
>  The Bolt doesn’t have 
> GPS, but it can pair with your phone to offer that functionality.
> 
> I use the Wahoo Elemnt ($499 direct from Wahoo) and highly recommend it, but 
> I think it’s more than you’re looking for. A smaller version, the “Elemnt 
> Bolt,” is available, but it costs $429 and is likely also more of a computer 
> than you need.
> 
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com 
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
> 
>> On Aug 24, 2017, at 2:44 PM, lum gim fong > > wrote:
>> 
>> Next in the series 
>> (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
>>  
>> ):
>> 
>> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>> 
>> I am looking for minimal features:
>> 
>> total distance
>> trip distance
>> climbing feet
>> 
>> 
>> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
>> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>> 
>> 
>> In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on my 
>> bike.
>> 
>> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
>> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Eric Norris]

Wahoo just released a very small computer called the “Elemnt Mini,” that uses 
wireless sensors for speed , cadence, etc. 
http://www.wahoofitness.com/devices/bike-computers 
 The Bolt doesn’t have GPS, 
but it can pair with your phone to offer that functionality.

I use the Wahoo Elemnt ($499 direct from Wahoo) and highly recommend it, but I 
think it’s more than you’re looking for. A smaller version, the “Elemnt Bolt,” 
is available, but it costs $429 and is likely also more of a computer than you 
need.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Aug 24, 2017, at 2:44 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:
> 
> Next in the series 
> (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance):
> 
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
> 
> I am looking for minimal features:
> 
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
> 
> 
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
> 
> 
> In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on my 
> bike.
> 
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of other 
> makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
> 
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[RBW] Re: What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Orc]

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 2:44:03 PM UTC-7, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Next in the series (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
> ):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>

If trip distance, total distance,and climb are all you're interested in & 
you've got a smartphone + an external battery, strava, ridewithgps, 
mapmyride, or the like are basically what you're looking for; you can start 
the program, plug the phone into the battery, then hurl the both of them 
into your rando bag and leave them there until you're done with the ride.   
   (I use ridewithgps for this;  I occasionally have dropouts when the gps 
can't get a good satellite connection, but I also had that happen with the 
garmin I used before the usb port broke loose and converted the thing into 
a very tiny boatanchor.)

-david parsons
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Ash [who works to bike]]

Joe,  this's probably one of the best e-bikes out there!  I'm saying this 
because I've tried a bunch of them and they are all terrible as a bicycle. 
 I'm spoilt by the ride quality of my Joe, which the main reason I don't 
have an e-bike.  

Your add-on kit does not look all that clunky.  I'd have to explore this 
option.  Could you share some details about this unit?

 
On Sunday, 20 August 2017 20:00:44 UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Clem L goes electric.
> "Judas!"
> (Grant will get that one)
>
> I did the deed today and it's fabulous. Honestly it's kind of ridiculous 
> how well this Riv model accepts and works with a mid-drive kit; it's smooth 
> and stable enough to handle the extra weight and speed, and it still turns 
> and stops really well (changing my mind about thinking I need discs). The 
> black kit even "hides" well with this color and the battery in the 
> TrunkSack. I know it's not everyone's cup o' joe, but boy did I appreciate 
> the assist in that killer headwind on the way back from Benicia to Vallejo 
> this evening. (Hi to the guy on the root beer Roadeo at Benicia State Park!)
>
> The last pic isn't lit well, but I wanted to show something I'd never 
> thought of until I owned a step-through..check out the water bottle access. 
> I've never been good at grabbing a bottle while pedaling a diamond frame 
> with upright bars (too far away), but this design puts it way up there in 
> front of you. Nice!
>
> I tend to buy and sell bikes without getting too attached to them, but I 
> think I'm going to keep this one. It's beautiful, does the things I need it 
> to do, and it just fits me. Which brings me to a thought about my (now sold 
> to a happy rider) Appaloosa that hadn't really sunk in until today: It was 
> also beautiful and I loved the ride, but there was always a nagging sense 
> that it was meant to be ridden more and harder than I was up to, like 
> buying a Honda Goldwing touring motorcycle and riding it to 7-Eleven. It 
> wasn't really ME, and Clem L is. Which is probably weird, but that's ok! 
> Thanks for humoring me and looking at my new bike. 
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/J5Y4fDycfG896hNP9
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[dougP]

I've been using a Garmin Edge 25 so I can monitor my heart rate.  The Edge 
20 is similar without the HRM feature.  One downside is non-replaceable 
battery that only lasts about 8 hours.  They are easy to read in bright sun 
and don't take up a lot of room.  I like the clever quarter turn attachment 
to the mount, and that the mount uses a simple rubber band system for 
connection to handlebar.  Price is a bit stiff @ $170 for Edge 35 plus 
about $30 for HRM belt.  The Edge 20 is $130, still a bit pricey.  

dougP

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 2:44:03 PM UTC-7, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Next in the series (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
> ):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on 
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[WETH]

I use my cellphone  and Cyclemeter app mostly to track annual mileage for each 
of my bikes.

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[RBW] Re: What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Deacon Patrick]

Map and compass normally. Computer at home if I ever care to know or share 
the elevation and distance profiles.

"That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy."

Is any of that a need? Try riding without any of it. No computer, no 
tracking, of anything. See what happens. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 3:44:03 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Next in the series (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance
> ):
>
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
>
> I am looking for minimal features:
>
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
>
>
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
>
>
> *In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on 
> my bike.*
>
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
> other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
>

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Marc Nolte]

Use your smartphone and map my ride. 
Marc

> On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:44 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:
> 
> Next in the series 
> (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance):
> 
> What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?
> 
> I am looking for minimal features:
> 
> total distance
> trip distance
> climbing feet
> 
> 
> That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
> I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.
> 
> 
> In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on my 
> bike.
> 
> I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of other 
> makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.
> -- 
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[RBW] Re: S24O C&O Canal

['Beaverton Bob' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Weth,

Thanks for sharing!  I really like reading these ride reports, and the 
photos made it even more enjoyable.  Makes me wish I could start doing 
these with my own kids.  We've gone hiking and car camping, but not (yet) 
backpacking or bikepacking.  I hope my Hillborne has a stable-mate by then.

Ride Safely,
Beaverton Bob 

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Re: [RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[Steve Palincsar]

How about a nice wired computer?  You could always look up the elevation 
gain on RWGPS on your computer...



On 08/24/2017 05:44 PM, lum gim fong wrote:
Next in the series 
(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance): 



What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?

I am looking for minimal features:

total distance
trip distance
climbing feet


That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.

*
*
*In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors 
on my bike.*


I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows 
of other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.






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Re: [RBW] S24O C&O Canal

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/24/2017 05:39 PM, WETH wrote:

Steve,
I wonder if we passed each other? We got on the towpath at Fletcher's about 
1:15p.


I was almost home by then.


Before the blue sky, it looked like it would rain.  As we left Bethesda, I 
thought it would rain. I was pleasantly surprised as the clouds slowly departed.


The weather forecast on the radio said there was a 30% chance of rain.  
I figured that was a 70% chance of no rain, and so pretty good odds.  We 
both won our bets.




The large group was still at Great Falls when we left about 3:15pm.  I didn't 
stop to inquire and wish I had.



I was pleased to see at least 3 different volunteer bike "ambassadors" 
(forgotten their official title) riding on the trail.


I didn't see them, but earlier in the week saw several Mt Vernon Trail 
patrol volunteers at Jones Point Park.



Thanks for the alternate route.


My pleasure.  It's amazing how they've hidden the CCT access points.  
Personally, I hate the gravel path at Dalecarlia -- never know if it's 
going to be rideable or deadly, so I never take the chance and half the 
time it's OK and I feel like I lost somehow -- and I find the wooden 
stairs just plain contemptible.  I mean, they did that /on purpose 
/specifically to make it hard on cyclists.   Walhonding is easier than 
RWGPS says it is (and by quite a bit, too) and taking Sangamore for a 
block or two eliminates a surprisingly sharp little dip-and-roller.


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[RBW] FS: Cheviot 60cm orange

[A. Nostuh]

I built up my cheviot 60cm (new orange with cream head tube) this spring

For sale frame fork headset and BB only 

Has very minor paint scuffs from locking, usage

No dents or dings

AND treated with jp weigle rust saver

Only thing missing is water bottle screws 

Asking 950 shipped

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[RBW] What do Rivendell riders use for GPS computers?

[lum gim fong]

Next in the series 
(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/what$20do$20rivendell$20riders%7Csort:relevance):

What do you all use for gps units on your bikes?

I am looking for minimal features:

total distance
trip distance
climbing feet


That is all I need. Nuttin' fancy.
I don't care about speed, in fact i don't even want or need to see it.


*In fact, the only reason I want a GPS is to not have wireless sensors on 
my bike.*

I know that Sigma makes a minimal one. Was wondering if anyone knows of 
other makers besides Garmin, Sigma, Cateye.

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Re: [RBW] S24O C&O Canal

[WETH]

Steve,
I wonder if we passed each other? We got on the towpath at Fletcher's about 
1:15p. 
Before the blue sky, it looked like it would rain.  As we left Bethesda, I 
thought it would rain. I was pleasantly surprised as the clouds slowly departed.
The large group was still at Great Falls when we left about 3:15pm.  I didn't 
stop to inquire and wish I had.  
I was pleased to see at least 3 different volunteer bike "ambassadors" 
(forgotten their official title) riding on the trail.
Thanks for the alternate route.
All the best,
Erl

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[RBW] FS: 57 cm Romulus $1400

[DB]

Sold!  

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Re: [RBW] S24O C&O Canal

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/24/2017 02:22 PM, WETH wrote:

Yesterday, my sons, a family friend, and I rode 29 miles to a Lockhouse on the 
C&O canal.  Write-up with photos here: 
https://lightofferings.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/s24o-to-lockhouse-22/
Riv content: a Cheviot, a Rosco Bubbe, as well as a Bridgestone RB-1 spotted in 
the wild.

Write-up without photos below:
For my younger son, each summer should include a camping trip.  For me, each 
summer should include a bike overnight with my family and a camping trip.  By 
bending the concept of camping, I attempted to combine both around busy 
schedules before school started.  We recruited a family friend who has 
accompanied us on many bike adventures and departed our house riding our bikes.

After 6 miles, we stopped for an early "lunch" at an ice cream store before 
continuing down the Capital Crescent trail to Fletcher's Boathouse.


I was on a similar route yesterday.  Leaving home at quarter to 9, I 
took the Mount Vernon trail across the 14th St. bridge, on the Rock 
Creek Trail along the waterfront and up the CCT to Fletchers, where I 
switched to the Towpath.  I followed the Towpath up to Great Falls, 
arriving there at maybe 11 or so.  I saw this:




but none of the blue skies in your photographs.



At the boathouse, we picked up the C&O Canal towpath and biked north.  
http://bikewashington.org/canal/canal_b.php

The D.C. area has experienced a great deal of much needed rain this summer, so 
I was apprehensive about the condition of the canal towpath.  The National Park 
Service has the towpath in great shape, at least miles 3-19 that we rode.  The 
boys took periodic breaks at a few of the locks and looked for turtles and 
other wildlife.


I agree, one or two mud holes but otherwise the towpath was in great shape.



At Great Falls we enjoyed a longer break and a late lunch at the snack bar.


When I arrived there was a large group at the Inn - childrens' bikes and 
young riders - at least 30 strong, with what I assume was a support van 
filled with large plastic bags (blocking my route to the rest room, 
which by then had risen to the very top of my Hierarchy of Needs, so I 
didn't stop to ask questions.




In addition, I saw a lovely Bridgestone RB1 locked to a rack.  When its owner 
returned, he told me with great pride that the bike was older than he was.

Home for the night was Lockhouse 22.  The C&O Canal Trust preserves a few of 
the remaining LockHouses and rents them out on a nightly basis: 
http://www.canaltrust.org/programs/canal-quarters/ Most have neither electricity 
nor indoor plumbing.  There was a picnic table and fire ring behind the house to 
eat and cook on respectively.  A stream flowed next to the cabin and into the 
Potomac River about 100 yards away. The day had dawned overcast and humid.  As we 
rode, a cold front passed by bringing cooler and drier conditions.  The evening was 
lovely with a hint of Fall in the air.  After hotdogs, baked beans, and s'mores we 
fell asleep to the sounds of the stream.

Overall it was a great s24o adventure.  My youngest son said the primitively cabin with a 
campfire was pretty close to tent camping.  It also spares us from carrying tents.  To 
save us from retracing our route, my wife picked us and our bikes up in the morning.  One 
realization for me was that the "boys" are now 17, 16, and 14.  They ride 
faster and harder than they used to.  And, I ride more leisurely than I used to.  While 
my stamina in the saddle is still better, I was pushing it to keep up with them over the 
27 miles!  Here is an image of our route with mileage.





There's a decent road alternative back to downtown DC: climb out of 
Great Falls up to MacArthur Blvd, then take that downriver to Glen Echo 
for a rest stop.  Leaving Glen Echo, turn left off MacArthur at 
Walhonding (the Old Sycamore Store marks the corner).  Take Walhonding 
up to Sangamore, left on Namakagan, right on Brokeway and at the end of 
the road there's a paved path that will take you back to the CCT.



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[RBW] New England Lobstah Riv Roll?

[Wally Estrella]

Any New Englanders interested in a Riv roll?

I'd be coming from southern ME so, willing to meet in the middle 
somewhere...maybe southern NH or eastern MA area?

I was hoping to plan an S24O off some variant of a D2R2 route then camp out 
on southern VT.  My Sept/Oct schedule is filling up quick, so only have 
time for a day meet-up and ride. Oh, let's add a lunch stop in there 
somewhere.

Here's the first toss of suggested dates: 9/9, 9/16, 9/23*
*I have 9/23 booked up for a ride w/ some other bike buddys, but could use 
that as a date.  I'm riding down in Boston that day (maybe the Minuteman 
Trail) then heading over to the New England Builders Ball.



[insert Ben Stein voice} Anyone? Anyone?

CHEERS!
Wally in Maine

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[RBW] S24O C&O Canal

[WETH]

Yesterday, my sons, a family friend, and I rode 29 miles to a Lockhouse on the 
C&O canal.  Write-up with photos here: 
https://lightofferings.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/s24o-to-lockhouse-22/
Riv content: a Cheviot, a Rosco Bubbe, as well as a Bridgestone RB-1 spotted in 
the wild.

Write-up without photos below:
For my younger son, each summer should include a camping trip.  For me, each 
summer should include a bike overnight with my family and a camping trip.  By 
bending the concept of camping, I attempted to combine both around busy 
schedules before school started.  We recruited a family friend who has 
accompanied us on many bike adventures and departed our house riding our bikes. 
 

After 6 miles, we stopped for an early "lunch" at an ice cream store before 
continuing down the Capital Crescent trail to Fletcher's Boathouse.  At the 
boathouse, we picked up the C&O Canal towpath and biked north.  
http://bikewashington.org/canal/canal_b.php 

The D.C. area has experienced a great deal of much needed rain this summer, so 
I was apprehensive about the condition of the canal towpath.  The National Park 
Service has the towpath in great shape, at least miles 3-19 that we rode.  The 
boys took periodic breaks at a few of the locks and looked for turtles and 
other wildlife. 

At Great Falls we enjoyed a longer break and a late lunch at the snack bar. 

In addition, I saw a lovely Bridgestone RB1 locked to a rack.  When its owner 
returned, he told me with great pride that the bike was older than he was. 

Home for the night was Lockhouse 22.  The C&O Canal Trust preserves a few of 
the remaining LockHouses and rents them out on a nightly basis: 
http://www.canaltrust.org/programs/canal-quarters/ Most have neither 
electricity nor indoor plumbing.  There was a picnic table and fire ring behind 
the house to eat and cook on respectively.  A stream flowed next to the cabin 
and into the Potomac River about 100 yards away. The day had dawned overcast 
and humid.  As we rode, a cold front passed by bringing cooler and drier 
conditions.  The evening was lovely with a hint of Fall in the air.  After 
hotdogs, baked beans, and s'mores we fell asleep to the sounds of the stream. 

Overall it was a great s24o adventure.  My youngest son said the primitively 
cabin with a campfire was pretty close to tent camping.  It also spares us from 
carrying tents.  To save us from retracing our route, my wife picked us and our 
bikes up in the morning.  One realization for me was that the "boys" are now 
17, 16, and 14.  They ride faster and harder than they used to.  And, I ride 
more leisurely than I used to.  While my stamina in the saddle is still better, 
I was pushing it to keep up with them over the 27 miles!  Here is an image of 
our route with mileage. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: 200 miles on 10 bikes, an essentially pointless self-challenge

[Bill Lindsay]

The artist formerly known as Michael and then Lungimsam and now Lum Gim 
Fong, asked of which tubing my 1985 Schwinn Tempo is comprised.  

The short answer is "I don't know for sure".  

The longer answer is longer.  There are Columbus Tenax stickers on the 
frame, and when I worked at a Schwinn shop in 1985, the Schwinn Tempos also 
had those Columbus Tenax stickers.  The fork blades on my bike also have a 
Columbus sticker.  

What's Columbus Tenax?  It's mid-range, seamed, heavier tubing than SL or 
even SP.  Depending on who you ask, though, things get weird beyond that 
point.  Some people will tell you that Tenax tubing was not available in 
the Fall of 1984.  It didn't exist yet, but the frames that became the 
Tempo, and the Voyager, and a couple other models were manufactured in the 
Fall of 1984, in Japan.  There is a rumor going around, and I'm 
perpetuating this rumor by sharing it.  The rumor is that Columbus had a 
pile of cosmetic blem SP and SL tubing that Schwinn bought up on the cheap. 
 Schwinn wanted to claim Columbus, but Columbus did not want them to claim 
Columbus SL or SP, so they gave them these Tenax stickers, which was a 
planned tubeset that did not yet exist.  So, these 1985 Schwinns have the 
reputation for being sneaky-nice bikes.  

I don't know if that rumor is true.  What I do know it that my Schwinn 
Tempo has a 28.6mm seat tube and takes a 26.4mm seatpost, meaning my seat 
tube has a massive 1.1mm wall thickness and therefore is almost certainly 
plain-gauge (not butted at all).  The 28,6mm downtube does NOT have that 
sonorous "ring" of thin-walled tubing.  The 25.4mm top tube also does not 
sound to my untrained ear as thinwall tubing.  I also know that the fork 
steer tube has TANGE stamped in it.   

Michael/Lungimsam/Lum Gim Fong also asked what my light Hillborne wheels 
are.  They are HED Belgium C2 Plus rims, 32 hole, Dura Ace 7700 hubs (with 
the rear spaced to 135 with an XT axle).  DT Competition spokes 2x in 
front, 2x on the left rear and 3x on the right rear.  Brass nipples.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 9:51:22 AM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> Bill's Schwinn looks like it has Columbus tubing if I'm not mistaken
>
> On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 1:18:46 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Fantastic thread, Bill!!
>> Really fun. Enjoying it immensely.
>> Makes me hungry to ride more.
>> A couple questions about the bikes:
>>
>> Schwinn:
>> 1. What kinda tubing is the frame?
>>
>> Orange Sam:
>> 2. You said you have lightweight wheels on it. What are they? Interested 
>> to know.
>>
>> As for your concerns about your use of descriptive terms:
>> I am really glad you haven't used terms like "vertically compliant", 
>> "laterally stiff", or "stoic", in your descriptions as they make me roll my 
>> eyes when used. Haha! 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 200 miles on 10 bikes, an essentially pointless self-challenge

[Patrick Moore]

First: Bill: thanks for the profile shot of the Tempo; forgot to
acknowledge.

Ryan: I can't speak for Bill's, but mine was made from Columbus Tenax
tubing and was pretty heavy, though the bike rode quite well for one that
couldn't take a 26mm *labeled* tire in the back. (And didn't I fix
*that* problem!
Ho!) I seem to recall that Tenax, at least mid-'80s Tenax, was straight
gauge, seamed tubing.

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Ryan Fleming  wrote:

> Bill's Schwinn looks like it has Columbus tubing if I'm not mistaken
>
>
> On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 1:18:46 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Fantastic thread, Bill!!
>> Really fun. Enjoying it immensely.
>> Makes me hungry to ride more.
>> A couple questions about the bikes:
>>
>> Schwinn:
>> 1. What kinda tubing is the frame?
>>
>> Orange Sam:
>> 2. You said you have lightweight wheels on it. What are they? Interested
>> to know.
>>
>> As for your concerns about your use of descriptive terms:
>> I am really glad you haven't used terms like "vertically compliant",
>> "laterally stiff", or "stoic", in your descriptions as they make me roll my
>> eyes when used. Haha!
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 200 miles on 10 bikes, an essentially pointless self-challenge

[Ryan Fleming]

Bill's Schwinn looks like it has Columbus tubing if I'm not mistaken

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 1:18:46 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Fantastic thread, Bill!!
> Really fun. Enjoying it immensely.
> Makes me hungry to ride more.
> A couple questions about the bikes:
>
> Schwinn:
> 1. What kinda tubing is the frame?
>
> Orange Sam:
> 2. You said you have lightweight wheels on it. What are they? Interested 
> to know.
>
> As for your concerns about your use of descriptive terms:
> I am really glad you haven't used terms like "vertically compliant", 
> "laterally stiff", or "stoic", in your descriptions as they make me roll my 
> eyes when used. Haha! 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Clem L

[masmojo]

Great looking Clem(entine); I enjoy my Original Orangie, but looking at yours 
makes me wish I'd waited. I'd gladly sacrifice the curved stays for that 
wonderful seat cluster lug , normalish sized post & other refinements. It will 
be interesting to see how this model continues to evolve slowly over time.

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[RBW] FS: 26" XO wheelsets

[Conway Bennett]

How's $150 per wheelset + shipping?  They come with 7 speed cassettes too!

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[RBW] Re: New Clem L

[Fullylugged]

I think the curved stays add so much to the look of the bike too. That's what 
drew me to this frame (with it's very subtle curve) for a relative with a 
less-than-Riv budget and who I am helping put together a bike for. This picture 
is close to what ours will look like (no fenders and racks for starters). As 
regards Clem L, a local rider ordered one complete from RBW and she loves it 
afaik. We also have a Glorius that is NEVER taken out for a ride locally, that 
I can't talk the owner into selling. But I digress.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MsjpHQbR1bQ/WYZjPfJcZNI/DDA/ks9npDGBJmMDBoB_aqg-iYhE86BRuHzgwCLcBGAs/s1600/NewAlbionStarling2.JPG

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