[RBW] Re: Bombadil and Hunqapillar origins: The definitive thread

[Marc Irwin]

This thread has been informative and interesting.  I don't know how 
definitive my experience is but here is what I thought when I made the 
decision 12  years ago: 
http://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com/2010/12/elves-of-rivendell-are-delivering-for.html
On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Great write-up, pics and story Willet! 
>
> This thread is really paying off :) 
>
> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:37:12 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>
>> Yes, the saga continues! I think it’s plausible that the prototype was 
>> indeed a prototype for both bikes — let’s call it a super heavy duty frame 
>> prototype — even if that was not the intention from the get go. And then 
>> there would have been a split, so to speak, with one going in this 
>> direction and one going in that, each with its own characteristics and 
>> nuances that we could list. In a rough and very imperfect analogy, it could 
>> be akin to a split for identical twins that start out from one, but whose 
>> real-world “gene expression” results in each twin developing their own 
>> personality, having a different appearance in some respects, and different 
>> strengths, weaknesses, and interests. 
>>
>> I know this is a stretch! But without a definitive story straight from 
>> the horse’s mouth, all this sleuthing and piecing together stories and 
>> evidence is the best we’ve got. It’s a fantastic thread. 
>> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 3:53:56 PM UTC-5 WilletM wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well, that's an interesting little twist!  It was my assumption after 
>>> posting the "origin story" of my Protovelo that I probably had many of the 
>>> details wrong and that there would be a long list of 
>>> clarifications/modifications to the information that I had pieced together 
>>> about it.  In particular, I assumed that there had been additional owners 
>>> of the frame that were unknown to me, and that perhaps Daniel M. had never 
>>> really "owned" the frame but had just borrowed it from Grant for the one 
>>> journey, etc.  But I had never seen anything regarding the 
>>> "proto-Hunqapillar" making the Great Divide trip.  I'm sure there are 
>>> others on the forum with more information about this than me, but my 
>>> initial thought is that perhaps my frame was very "interim" and included 
>>> both Bombadil and Hunqapillar elements/geometry???  On the other hand, the 
>>> fact that Daniel referred to it pretty precisely as a "new unpainted 
>>> Bombadil" in the Reddit thread seems to slot it in timeline-wise as an 
>>> early Bombadil rather than a later Hunqapillar.  As always, I will defer to 
>>> the experts and look forward to possibly fleshing out more details as we go 
>>> along.
>>>
>>> Thanks, though, for pointing out the discrepancy.
>>>
>>> Willet M.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>>
 Willet, this is a fascinating backstory indeed. Thanks for sharing. 

 One piece of it is curious, and it both clarifies and clouds things: 
 the Hunqapillar copy also states that the the “proto-Hunqapillar” was 
 ridden by Daniel on the Great Divide.

 From Riv:

 And it's a trail bike.
 The tubes are stout, but reasonable in weight, and the strong lugged 
 joints should last or decades. There’s clearance for 58mm tires. If you 
 need fatter than that, get a Pugsley. 
 *Trivia: Former employee Daniel rode a proto-Hunqapillar the entire 
 2700-miles of the Great Divide trail. No problem. The current ones are 
 vast 
 improvements over that*.

 So this strongly suggests that the proto Bombadil and the proto 
 Hunqapillar were the same proto frames. Right?



 On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 1:51:19 PM UTC-5 WilletM wrote:

>
> Just by lucky coincidence, I had recently been considering starting a 
> definitive "Bombadil origins" thread, which would hopefully document all 
> the current (and maybe former) Bombadil's owned by forum members, with 
> pics 
> and stories about ownership history and builds and any other details that 
> would help to flesh out our collective interest/obsession with this 
> particular Rivendell model.  But Eric saved me the trouble by starting a 
> thoughtful and interesting thread that covers most/all of the same 
> information that I had hoped to aggregate in my proposed thread.
>
> My own personal Bombadil obsession started, as so many others 
> apparently have, with provocative pics that I saw online depicting 
> Protovelo/Bombadil's naked as a jaybird, with brass flowing in copious 
> amounts out of the fancy lugs.  Back in the mid-90's, I had ordered a 
> custom Bilenky coupled touring bike with Nervex lugs and had it finished 
> naked, which, in combination with the lugs and couplers and other 
> braze-on's, made for an abundantly visually interesting frameset to 
> admire.  And then along co

Re: [RBW] Re: How you choose 2 Rivendells?

[Patrick Moore]

Brian: I understand and largely sympathize with your proposed 2-bike
stable, at least as to categories if not as to exact models: nice-handling
bike that can carry errand loads and is also multi-surface capable, and a
nice ss road bike, tho' for the last I'd have 2 or 3 wheels including
fixed/free and hub gear wheels which would I think extend a ss's uses and
also compensate for age and diminished ability and interest in grunting a
70" or 76" fixed gear up a 7-mile-long hill.

Aside: If one were limited to just 1 Rivendell, and that Rivendell had to
be a gofast road bike, then in addition to extra multigear wheels one might
also rig up a QR attachment system for a capacious Saddlesack or whatever
they call them now. Again, if forced (much to my dismay) to choose "just
one or your like," I'd choose my gofast with occasional saddlebag and a
couple of 2-speed wheels.

To all: regarding the contrast between Ram and Legolas. I owned a 2nd gen
Ram so I know how it feels. I had thought that the Legolas might feel
*more* nimble
and flexible and spritely, but others report otherwise; is it just the
stiff clamp-on stem? I'm very interested in hearing more about how the
Legolas compares with the Ram, the old Road Standard, the LongLow, Roadeo,
Quickbeam, RoadUno, and others of the more road-type Rivendell product mix.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:20 PM Coal Bee Rye Anne <
lionsrugbyalu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... As for my response/approach to the OP's initial question I guess I'd
> echo the work and play sentiments mentioned above.  I already own a Clem H
> as one of my theoretical two Rivs and it truthfully covers all of my
> immediate and realistic cycling needs, whether for work/utility or play.
> If adding a 2nd to complement the Clem it would likely be a fully lugged
> country-bike with the Clem serving as the more utilitarian hillibike. ...
>

... I'm really awaiting/anticipating the Roaduno release since I still
> can't shake the single speed bug and it's really suited my local terrain
> and riding habits:  mostly flat, multi-use paths, pavement, gravel with
> some occasional off-road/underbiking ...
>
> Brian Cole
> Lawrence NJ
>

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[RBW] FS: Nitto Albastache bars

['Bryan Dalik' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hi all,

Got a pair of Albastache bars I pulled off of a Riv I am rebuilding. I 
cleaned them up pretty good. They're in really nice shape with a few minor 
scuffs and marks. These are 25.4 clamp diameter. and are heat treated. 

Thinking 85$ shipped. 

Here's a link to some 
photos: 
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZRkrbFw3MOXVUuDJ0MlQZ6hG2G71O_pJ?usp=share_link

Thanks!
Bryan


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Re: [RBW] Re: Gus for sale

[Jesse Tate]

Joe,I don’t but the saddle is as low as it will go.  My inseam is 30 inch.  My PBH is 82.5.  The bike rode well for me in that position but overall the frame is a size too big (that’s why I’m selling it).  With the saddle raised to its tallest point it’s 40 inches from the top of the pedal fully down to the top of the saddle.  Long answer to a short question but I hope it helps.Jesse Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 15, 2022, at 7:07 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Golly jeepers that's a nice bike. Do you know the saddle height as pictured? Joe "yes I know I'm too short, I've been short all my life" Bernard On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 11:21:15 AM UTC-8 jht...@gmail.com wrote:https://greenville.craigslist.org/bik/d/greenville-rivendell-gus-boots-wilson/7557071734.html



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[RBW] Orange Ram touchup paint

[Chris Dresden]

Checked some older postings and cyclofriend who recommended Boyds Roadser 
Florida Orange Pearl but appears to be out of stock. Anyone tried Boyd's 
Orange Pearl Enamel?

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[RBW] ISO: 62cm Quickbeam/Simpleone Frameset

[Corey Aguilar]

  Hello everyone, I hope this isn't painful for you all to see. I know it 
must happen allot, but I have been hunting and haven't been to lucky. I now 
turn to y'all in hope of finding a 62cm Qucikbeam or Simpleone. Thanks for 
the read and any leads!

Keep the rubber side, and don't chase parked cars!
 Corey A.

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Joe D.]

Just wanted to say thanks for the insights everyone. I posted a longer 
reply a few days ago that still awaiting the moderator (I guess?) but I 
just wanted to say thanks in the meantime...

Joe

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 6:12:33 PM UTC-7 rcook...@gmail.com wrote:

> Joe,
>
> The final iteration of Surly's Pugsley had 460 mm chainstays and accepted 
> 4.8 in. tires "with drivetrain restrictions." It also had a 72° seat tube 
> angle, which would feel a little more relaxed and Rivish than the steeper 
> angles on MTBs these days.
>
> The Tumbleweed Prospector and the Crust Scapegoat max out at 4.0 in. 
> tires, I think, but have 73 mm bottom brackets for a more comfortable Q 
> factor. (I ride a Pugsley, and have a limited tolerance for the 200 mm Q 
> factor.)
>
> If you go custom, Myth Cycles in Durango CO has the Chimera (
> https://mythcycles.com/bikes/chimera/). The listed geometry is shorter in 
> chainstay and wheelbase than you want, evidently the design allows a 
> narrower Q than usual for a fatbike while also accommodating 4.8 in. tires.
>
> That Tanglefoot Bull Thistle, though… wow. They present it as a 
> drop-bar-specific design, but the top tube and reach are long enough to 
> work with an upright bar, I think. Limited to 4.0 in. tires, but the bottom 
> bracket is 83 mm so the Q factor will be narrower than most fatbikes. The 
> angles (ST 71°, HT 69.5°) rather Riv-like, and the lugs—the LUGS!
>
> I'm curious to see how your quest plays out.
>
> --
> Bob
>
> P.S. Maybe the most Rivesque fatbike would be an early Pugsley, when they 
> still had cantilever studs and Large Marge rim-brake-compatible rims. (See 
> Rivendell Reader 39 from 2007.)
>
> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 12:21:16 PM UTC-7 Joe D. wrote:
>
>> Hello Rivendell aficionados! The short version: I’d like some advice on 
>> picking a fat bike (4-5” wide tires) that shares similar ride 
>> characteristics with the current crop of Rivendell long chainstay-long 
>> wheelbase bikes (e.g. Clem, Atlantis, Platy, Gus/Susie).
>>
>> The long version: I’m in the market for a full-on fat bike, with true 4-5 
>> inch wide tires. I live in Montana and my previous winter riding with 
>> studded 3 inch tires just wasn’t enough. We’re a one car family, so in 
>> addition to riding on winter trails or snowy forest service roads for fun, 
>> I’ll use the bike for groceries and errands as well. And as much as I’d 
>> love an Atlantis or Platy for dirt roads, bike camping, and light trail 
>> use, the more economical choice would be to get a set of 29 inch wheels for 
>> a fat bike and run 2.8 or 3 inch tires in non-snow season for an all year 
>> off-road bike. Hence the importance of making a good choice now. 
>>
>> How I came to desire a Rivendell-esq fat bike: A friend in another state 
>> got a 2019 Clem and raves about the comfy, stable ride with the long  chain 
>> stays/wheelbase. But the real kicker was when I got a Yuba Mundo Lux cargo 
>> bike (https://yubabikes.com/cargobikestore/yuba-mundo-lux/) for hauling 
>> my two kids around. The swept back bars get me sitting upright, and the 
>> crazy long chainstay (753mm) and wheelbase (1410) make 150lb loads totally 
>> manageable. It’s like a Cadillac. Since the Yuba, I’ve vowed that all my 
>> bikes will be long and upright. Fortunately upright stems and swept back 
>> bars can take care of the upright part for near any bike, so that leaves 
>> chainstay/wheelbase length as the big question for a fat bike.
>>
>> For reference, scroll down here (
>> https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5d1ae74763bde8001707cf36,5e1faf637f17da00170c6e28,)
>>  
>> and you can see the chainstay/wheelbase lengths on the Clem and Atlantis, 
>> both ~550mm for chainstays and ~1235mm for wheelbase. For fat bikes, 
>> consider these two models (
>> https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5ff009522655ff0017c6e96a,61c0a2add559210021256cf2,).
>>  
>> The Wyatt can actually have a longer wheelbase than the Rivendells with its 
>> sliding dropouts (1250 max wheelbase). But its chainstay is only 465, still 
>> long-ish for mountain bikes but not near what a Riv or cargo bike is. It 
>> achieves that with a slack head tube angle that pushes the front tire way 
>> out front.
>>
>> Alternatively, the Giant fat bike in the link has a similar max chainstay 
>> length as the Wyatt (460mm) but a shorter wheelbase (1170mm), leading to a 
>> more centered position on the bike. I’m unable to find any fat bikes with 
>> the combination of long chainstay/wheelbase that the Rivendell’s have.
>>
>> Any tips on which bike, and which geometry approach in general, would get 
>> me closest to the Rivendell/cargo bike-like comfort and ride quality? Other 
>> fat bikes? For simplicities sake, I guess don’t evaluate factors other than 
>> geometry, like frame material. For what it’s worth, there are very few 
>> chromoly fat bikes.
>>
>> (Sorry for the length! I appreciate anyone getting into such a bike-nerdy 
>> discuss

[RBW] Help parsing differences in stem reach and height

[Patrick Moore]

I just rode the RG paved bike path 7 miles in a straight line south
downtown (13.5 miles total) to pick up my car, left at her mother's house
by my daughter. I decided to ride my only derailleur bike, the 2016
Chauncey Matthews "road bike for dirt."

This "Matthews 1" feels perfect fine for the riding it was designed for,
shortish rides combining fastish (relative) pavement with sandy RG
Conservancy District roads and narrow, bumpy, sometimes winding ditchbank
trails. I generally ride on the hoods or ramps; rarely in the hooks. Riding
on the hoods and ramps the bike feels fine.

But today riding for several miles at a stretch in the hooks at cruising
speed on the paved flats against a modest headwind, which I don't usually
do, I noticed again at length what I've noticed before more briefly, that
in in the hooks the 42 cm bar feels too far forward and too wide, and the
160 mm Q feel too wide -- I feel as if I have to splay my knees -- all
compared to the perfectly "natural" feel on my road bikes (1999 Riv custom
and copy 2020 Matthews IGH custom).

Both road bikes feel benchmark-natural in hooks, on ramps, on hoods.

Comparisons below.

This Matthews #1 has a 42 cm (hoods) Maes Parallel set about 5 mm below
saddle on a 10 cm -17* stem. Tires are true 60s under fenders and it has
71.5* head, very high stack (slammed -17* 100 mm stem puts flat of bar
about 5 mm below saddle), and 55 mm of rake. 175 mm Logic crank on 130 mm
spindle (bashguard, 42, 28) has a 160 mm Q. 29 1/2" tall wheels, 20 psi 61
mm tires.

Road bikes: 38 cm Maes Parallels 3 cm below saddle on 8 cm stems.
72.5* heads, don't know rake. 170 mm cranks with Q of 130 for the fixie and
~ 135 for the AM hub bike. Elk Passes at 55-60, Naches Passes at 30-35.

Saddles on all bikes are Flites in exactly the same -- height, setback --
wrt the bb. Same brake levers on same model bars placed at same height
along curves. Same measurement from saddle nose to brake hoods of 27". SPD
pedals on all of them, same shoes.

This is a great deal of unorganized information. But help me think it
through.

First, might the awkward feel in hooks be due simply to 3 more cm of Q, 2
more cm of bar reach, and 4 more cm of bar width?

Second, thinking out loud: what about a 8 or 9 cm custom stem versus 10
with say 30* versus 17* drop to bring the bar in closer and drop it lower
but keep it higher and further than with the road bikes for more control on
sandy dirt. Might this mimic the feel of the road bikes a bit more?

Comments (polite only) welcome.

Thanks.

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Is there a 31.8 clamp drop bar comparable to a Nitto Noodle 54cm?

[David Hallerman]

Scott, the Nitto M151 is a new favorite. Somewhat shallower with less reach
than Noodles, but still same basic effects for me.

I have the 31.8 version on my Gunnar Sport, and the 26.0 clamp size
(everything else the same) on my Rambouillet.

https://www.retro-gression.com/products/nitto-m151f-ssb-handlebar

That’s where I bought the bars. Interesting online presence.

Dave

Hudson Valley NY

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 10:07 PM 'Scott' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Hey, all:
>
> I'm wanting to try a 54cm Nitto Noodle drop, but I want to keep my 31.8
> Faceplater to facilitate cockpit changes.
>
> Anyone know of a comparable bar or solution? Maybe I should just get a
> Noodle and stem for change outs...
>
> Also, am I on the right track going with a Noodle (54cm cuz I'm tall)? I
> plan on using it as a cockpit option for my Atlantis build.
>
> Happy Holidays,
>
> Scott
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Gus for sale

[Jesse Tate]

Joe,From top of pedal to top of seat 34.5 inches.Jesse Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 15, 2022, at 9:07 PM, Jesse Tate  wrote:Joe,I’ll get the measurement tomorrow and get back to you.Jesse Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 15, 2022, at 8:54 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Hehe, the seller Jesse is the one who posted this thread. The saddle height question is better answered here for all to see, there's very little chance I'm tall enough to ride this bike. On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 5:26:21 PM UTC-8 Kim Hetzel wrote:Hi Joe,According to Mike Ghort he spoke to the seller Jesse, who was very nice and helpful, sent him a full build list, was willing to have the bike shipped.

(864) 884-4957Call Jesse and ask him about the saddle height. Great price !  I have no interest just encouragement. Kim HetzelYelm, WA. 



On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 4:07:06 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:Golly jeepers that's a nice bike. Do you know the saddle height as pictured? Joe "yes I know I'm too short, I've been short all my life" Bernard On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 11:21:15 AM UTC-8 jht...@gmail.com wrote:https://greenville.craigslist.org/bik/d/greenville-rivendell-gus-boots-wilson/7557071734.html



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[RBW] Re: Will's Roadini SS

[Andrew Turner]

Fixed gear riding keeps you on your toes especially around traffic. It's a 
fantastic feeling having the bike instantly react with your fast twitch 
muscles that keeps you really focused on the 'now.' I also think it makes 
you a way better driver because it teaches you to scan your surroundings 
efficiently. Single speed is much more relaxing and cathartic, and IMO 
better suited for longer, hillier rides. My favorite things in life are the 
ones you don't notice you're using and riding single speed puts a sorta 
invisible shroud over your bike, leaving you to enjoy the scenery more and 
think about your bike, less. 

I'll definitely be going back and forth between 8 speed downtube shifting 
and SS on my new Roadini thanks to Will's post...at least until my knees 
start to complain. 

Andrew 
TN


On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 2:02:46 PM UTC-6 bmfo...@gmail.com wrote:

> I rode fixed when I first got into cycling. Now 75% or so of my bikes are 
> single speeds and I have no fixed gears. The main thing I like about SS vs 
> fixed is being able to have my feet/cranks in the ideal position whenever I 
> want. Also yeah, coasting rules.
>
> On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 1:30:55 PM UTC-6 Wesley wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>> You're missing out on coasting! I tried fixed-gear once and can't imagine 
>> why it became a popular way to ride around 2010. Especially if your single 
>> speed is geared low for climbing, it is a relief to be able to relax on the 
>> descent.
>> -Wes
>>
>> On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 9:11:03 AM UTC-8 JohnS wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ryan,
>>>
>>> I'm very inspired my Will's Roadini build as well. I haven't done much 
>>> SS riding, I'm more of a fixed or multi-gear rider. How do people feel 
>>> about SS vs. fixed? Am I missing something by not riding SS some of the 
>>> time?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> JohnS
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 10:57:35 AM UTC-5 Ryan wrote:
>>>
 Have to say...I like that bike a lot. Very clean and elegant

 And Will's post : 
 https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news/singlespeed-roadini?mc_cid=1ea8aef045&mc_eid=0074b52ae1
  
 nails what I like about single-speeds; for some years now my SS PX-10 has 
 been a fave. Apologies to Rivendell but riding that old Peugeot IS 
 addictive.  I am curious to see the landing of the Roaduno in 2023

>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: How you choose 2 Rivendells?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. That might mean that the Legolas as just that extra little bit of
eagerness that I missed in my Ram (29 mm Paris Roubaix open tubulars, so
top quality tires); I daresay that's because my Riv Road customs have been
built for 559 bsd wheels which are quicker to turn because about 2 1/2"
shorter and noticeably lighter than equivalent 700C wheels. OTOH, a 650b'd
Ram might be nice indeed.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 7:50 AM MoVelo  wrote:

> Patrick-yes that 'sedate' feeling is a good way of explaining the Ram vs
> Legolas. 'Twitchy' maybe is a bit too negative for the Legolas. I steer
> mainly with my hips to innate a turn and both bikes then 'fall' into and
> complete the turn. The Ram is just a tiny bit slower at this than the
> Legolas. The fact that the Ram can fit 650x42s with fenders, has an
> additional water bottle mount and easily accommodates racks makes me love
> it and want to keep it for a long time. I certainly did not make a long
> range plan to have these two somewhat similar bikes in my life but here
> they are. Lovely to look at and lovely to ride.
>
> Brian- yes, the threading of the steerer tube and switching to a quill
> stem is the only component change I made to the bike. I believe you are
> correct in suggesting that raising the bars contributed to the difference.
> It continues to amaze me the subtle and sometimes minute changes made and
> their subsequent effect. Trying to quantify differences is complicated and
> I suspect a fair bit of subjectiveness creeps into the equation.  Your
> 'experiments' sound similar to mine.
>
> Now that I have these two dialed, I too have the single speed bug.
> Thankfully $$ I already have a couple of frame options hanging in my garage.
>

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Re: [RBW] FS: Suntour XC PRO pedals, toe clips and straps

[Patrick Moore]

Kim: If these are still available and if they have the GreaseGuard feature,
I'll take them. Will you accept $75 shipped to 87120>

Thanks, Patrick

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:50 PM Kim Hetzel  wrote:

> I have for sale one pair of Suntour XC PRO black pedals with toe clips and
> straps. The threads are 9/16". Very little wear.
>
> Asking $75.00 or best offer, plus shipping in the CONUS via Paypal.
> ... more pictures upon request.
>
> Kim Hetzel
> Yelm, WA
>
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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Platypus ride report

[Patrick Moore]

I used a couple of front baskets (including Walt Newsboy) on grocery
beaters and I agree, they are the most convenient way of carrying bicycle
loads. Unfortunately, the bikes I attached them to weren't designed for
them, and I used the stock struts and attachment gear which was not really
stout enough and put the weight too far forward, so I couldn't carry my
usual loads (often over 30 lb, up to 40+ lb) in them safely. I'd bet that
properly attached they'd work well on a low trail bike like the one someone
lent me for a week long ago. In fact, if I built a bike to be used
exclusively for errand loads, I'd probably choose low trail and a big front
basket. But my grocery rides are also entertainment rides, so my grocery
bike is a light road bike.

(Aside: After finally getting Keaton Haire of Doom Bars to braze
bottom-attachment tabs to Chauncey Matthews's front lowriders, I now can
distribute my heavy and bulky grocery loads between rear and front Ortliebs
(Backroller in back for 30 lb, up to 20 lb if balanced in Sports Rollers in
front. Bike handles much better without it all in back! This is the 2020
Matthews copy in lighter tubing of that 2003 26" wheel road custom built
for a fixed and IGH drivetrain.)

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 6:26 AM Tom Palmer  wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>
> I really like a front basket. It is more convenient than a handlebar bag
> or a saddlebag. There is not fixed amount to put in, like a bag. With a
> small cargo net- like motorcylists have to lash a helmet on their bike,
> allow me to make an unplanned stop at the store and get what I need withijn
> reason. I even have a large front basket on my hunting bike and load it
> crazy large.  As far as on Rivendells, I understand they were heavily into
> saddle bags and work very well for that, but the front basket just works. I
> am experimenting with a wider bar to get the handling where I want it. That
> is the fun of dialing in a bike. I put the Soma Port Mann bars on but have
> not ridden yet- winter has arrived and it may be a bit before the roads
> clear.
>
> Tom Palmer
>
> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:19:30 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Tom: congratulations on the Platypus. I'd love to test ride one, set up
>> per all the Rivendellian specifications, too
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Will's Roadini SS

[Patrick Moore]

Ryan: it's perfectly safe to ride with a fixed cog screwed to a freewheel
hub; just don't use backpressure, or don't use it very hard. I rode
thousands of miles like this with no lockring.

But you can put Loctite on the threads too. Before I learned that red
Loctite requires heat to break the bond, I resorted to my bench vise to
remove a high-quality -- Dura Ace -- track cog that I'd Loctited onto an
ENO hub with Red, using the rim as the lever. I applied all my strength but
couldn't budge it; in fact, I shattered the cog int 3 pieces and put tiny
little waves into the ENO threads (it was still usable, thank God). So a
bit of red Loctite would be a practically as secure as a reverse-threaded
lockring.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:30 AM Ryan  wrote:

> And I'd probably need a new wheel; my  Peugeot has a 126 OLN Campy 36-hole
> Record hub.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Will's Roadini SS

[Patrick Moore]

I prefer fixed over ss for road riding, even though I am now down to a
single fixed gear bike. While I do love my AM (close-sh ratio: 72" 65" 56")
IGH -- I ride it like a ss with 3 ranges -- I do miss doing my mostly
flatland recreational grocery rides -- 11 to 20 loaded miles -- on a fixed
gear, and in fact have a sub-120 mm fixed/free hub waiting to be built into
an alternative wheel for this bike (2020 Matthews #2). With wingnuts and a
17/19 Dingle cog I should be able to handle headwinds with panniers.

OTOH, I do prefer ss for dirt riding; tried fixed off road with 175 mm
cranks and really hated downhills and tail winds without being able to
coast. I think I had the bike geared at about 64" per the 63xc.com site.
Switched to 64" ss and 170s with great relief. My current Monocog 29er is
geared at 65" and with 71mm tires (back to 175s tho') it's great for
flatland sandy trails.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:11 AM JohnS  wrote:

> ... . How do people feel about SS vs. fixed? Am I missing something by not
> riding SS some of the time?
>
> Thanks,
> JohnS
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Patrick Moore]

Not to crowed Joe's questions, but this answers many of my questions about
fatbikes too; and I didn't know that there are 3.25 and 3.5 650B tires. So
thanks Keith for this detail. I've already found that no Riv can take full
3"/76 mm 700C tires, alas.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:06 PM iamkeith  wrote:

> Joe,
>
> before throwing in my 2 cents, I want to acknowledge that this is not
> really answering your questions but, instead, telling you to do something
> different.   I usually get annoyed when people answer a direct question
> with "you don't need that" but, in this case, my friend, I know enough
> about you and your bike-purchase-and-subsequent-regret habits to want to
> save you some hassle.  Others have already mentioned a couple of the ideas
> I was going to offer, but here it is with more explanation:
>
> I haven't read through  your other ibob thread completely, but do
> understand that much of your interest comes from wanting to relieve wrist
> discomfort - especially on rough trails..  So this response is partly in
> consideration of that question.
>
>
> *"Novelty" concerns:* I was a pretty early adopter of fat bikes. They're
> the only kind of bike I can even ride for fully 6 months of the year or
> more, due to the amount of snow where I live. (Along with northern
> Minnesota and Anchorage, my area - the sister communities of Teton County
> Idaho and Teton County Wyoming - were where much of the early fatbike
> development occurred.) For a number of years around 2010 or so, I rode a
> fat bike almost exclusively, all year. I liked it for it's back-to-basics,
> monster-truck, roll-over-anything simplicity. But, even for an retro-grouch
> like me who lives in a place where they make complete sense, that appeal
> eventually wore off and I now only ride it when no other bike will work.
> Most people who get fat bikes enjoy the novelty for an even shorter period
> of time. They eventually tire of the extra rolling resistance and steering
> compromises and increased q- factor and mechanical complications and
> weight. Then they quit riding them.
>
> *Tire Size considerations*: Keep in mind that there have been HUGE
> advances in tire manufacturing and technology since (and because) 26" fat
> bike tires were invented - even though that wasn't all that long ago. 2008,
> maybe? Much of what made 26x4 tires work so well was their diameter, which
> was similar to the not-much-older 29er development. But, unless you really
> plan on riding in loose sand or deep snow most of the time, there is no
> longer any advantage to 4" tires. There are now some 650b semi-fat tires
> that give you almost all of the advantages of 26x4 with none of the
> problems. If you think about it, there's nothing more "rivendell-esqe" than
> 650b, right? They wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Rivendell!
>
> *Regarding suspension and bounciness*: The best thing about fat bikes is
> that they eliminate the need for suspension for most "normal" riding. But
> it takes a lot of effort to tune the tire pressure to really take advantage
> of this. Almost as much hassle as dealing with shock rebound rates and
> pressure settings, etc. on a true full-suspension bike. When you get tire
> pressure >just< right, you don't bounce at all, and you don't have funny
> steering or excessive rolling inefficiency. But the optimum pressure
> requirement changes depending on terrain and load, so you end up fussing
> with it a lot. (or giving up and getting frustrated with the ride qualities
> - a la the "novelty wearing off topic." ) The REALLY important thing to
> keep in mind here is that the bigger the tire volume / cross section, the
> more sensitive it is  to pressure adjustments, and the more you need to
> mess with it. So you're absolutely better off only getting as much tire as
> you really need! 4" is really overkill most of the time, now that there are
> intermediate options.
>
> *Geometry considerations (and Pugsley concern)*: You specifically asked
> about the Puglsey. I'll venture that is probably NOT the bike for you. I
> had a first generation pugsly at one point (with canti brakes!) . The thing
> about wrist pain - as you know from Grant teaching us - is that it's more
> of an issue of frame geometry than it is of tire plushness or vibrations
> and impacts being transferred through the bars. In particular, it comes
> from bikes with too-low handlebars and too-steep seat tubes angles and
> twitchy steering geometries, all conspiring to require you to put lots of
> your body weight on the handlebars. They may have gotten better since mine,
> but the thing about pretty much ALL surly bikes is that they have extremely
> short head tubes and stack heights. You can add 4" of stem spacers and a
> high-rise stem but, at some point, you're probably fighting the design
> intent of the bike.
>
> Similarly and, as CJ noted, many accomplished snow bike racers prefer
> short chainstays, and it's probably valid.. to a point. I've had that same
> c

Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Michael Moore, Jr.]

The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County.
We have way less traffic and better air. 😉

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson 
wrote:

> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>
> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:
>
>> At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of
>> cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the
>> "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted
>> by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up
>> and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads
>> equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to
>> wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.
>
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Joe D.]

Thanks all. What great insight! I can’t believe that Bearclaw… a titanium 
drop-bar fat bike! I did recently learn about the Salsa Blackborow, but 
that really seems fully into cargo bike territory, with chainstays and 
wheelbase over 100mm longer than the Rivs. I know they designed it to be 
more sporty that something like the Big Fat Dummy though.

I really like that link to Mike C’s thoughts about fatbike design. It 
helped me realize what I’m trying to accomplish, which is not necessarily 
what he’s after. If I can’t ride any trails in winter it’s not a huge 
bummer, but I want to be able to cruise all over town for errands and go 
for longer rides on the dirt roads out of town. But these are all either 
intermittently plowed or at least trafficked roads. So mostly packed snow 
but occasionally 1-3” of fresh or churned stuff from cars. 

I currently have studded 2” tires to get around town and I’m not enjoying 
it. On totally packed snow and ice it’s fine, but any kind of fluff makes 
it squirrly. Last winter I spent time riding a friends bike with 27.5 x 3 
studded tires from 45NRTH. That was a much better setup than my current 2” 
studs. I think I could enjoy the riding I described above for the vast 
majority of the winter we get with that 27.5 x 3 setup. I just figured I’d 
go full fat, which nowadays seems to be 4.5 to 5”. But as Keith points out, 
there are definite down sides. (I see his post in my email but not in the 
thread…) I’ve only been on a fatbike briefly and am planning on renting one 
for some more real world experimenting.

I’m thinking about a few different scenarios. Of course budget plays a 
role, and I only see one new bike coming in the foreseeable future.

1) Buy a Rivendell! Makes sense if I’m excited a bout the geometry and ride 
feel. I guess the Gus/Susie for max tire clearance (2.8”) and then I’d stud 
the tires myself. Or a Clem and then buy the available 29 x 2.6” studded 
tires.
Pros: it’s a Riv! Which is really what I’m most excited for.
Cons: not the biggest tires, certainly not compared to a fat bike but not 
even compared to option 2. But perhaps it’s fine for my winter riding?

2) Get a Rivendell-inspired off-road bike   that has even more tire 
clearance than Gus/Susie, but isn’t full fat. Many good choices given 
already like the tumbleweed prospector and crust scapegoat. I’d throw the 
Jones LWB in there too. 
Pros: Theoretically better snow performance than #1 since there are bigger 
tires, like a 29 x 3.25 Duro Crux for the Jones that I could stud, but 
still regular bike feel compared to a full fat.
Cons: Although they’re making design choices with a nod towards Riv, 
they’re not a Rivendell! Also, still some compromise in snow performance 
compared to option 3, but doable 95% of winter, and more enjoyable the rest 
of the year?

3) Full fat. Realize that I’ll probably want either option 1 or 2 
eventually anyway, so just get whatever cheap used fat bike is available. 
Those are often either old pugsleys or salsa mukluks for 700-800. And then 
eventually, like 7-10 years from now at some celebratory moment, by a 
classic Riv like an Atlantis or Appaloosa that can handle most of my 
April-October dirt riding.
Pros: Maximum snow performance. Cheap initial cost, although new fat bike 
tires are expensive.
Cons: I’m waiting a while for a bike I really want from option 1 or 2.

Options 1 and 2 seem nice because other than the cargo bike, my personal 
bikes are two $100 specials from Craigslist: a late 80s schwinn with 40mm 
tires and an early 90s steel MTB with 2.3” knobbies. I enjoy the heck out 
of both but would expect options 1 and 2 would be more enjoyable for the 
dirt roads/easy single track/bikepacking I enjoy doing.

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 6:12:33 PM UTC-7 rcook...@gmail.com wrote:

> Joe,
>
> The final iteration of Surly's Pugsley had 460 mm chainstays and accepted 
> 4.8 in. tires "with drivetrain restrictions." It also had a 72° seat tube 
> angle, which would feel a little more relaxed and Rivish than the steeper 
> angles on MTBs these days.
>
> The Tumbleweed Prospector and the Crust Scapegoat max out at 4.0 in. 
> tires, I think, but have 73 mm bottom brackets for a more comfortable Q 
> factor. (I ride a Pugsley, and have a limited tolerance for the 200 mm Q 
> factor.)
>
> If you go custom, Myth Cycles in Durango CO has the Chimera (
> https://mythcycles.com/bikes/chimera/). The listed geometry is shorter in 
> chainstay and wheelbase than you want, evidently the design allows a 
> narrower Q than usual for a fatbike while also accommodating 4.8 in. tires.
>
> That Tanglefoot Bull Thistle, though… wow. They present it as a 
> drop-bar-specific design, but the top tube and reach are long enough to 
> work with an upright bar, I think. Limited to 4.0 in. tires, but the bottom 
> bracket is 83 mm so the Q factor will be narrower than most fatbikes. The 
> angles (ST 71°, HT 69.5°) rather Riv-like, and the lugs—the LUGS!
>
> I'm curious to

Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Patrick Moore]

Really wonderful photos. I'm very pleased that Athens is so rideable. I
haven't been there for almost 50 years since we visited an aunt on home
leave; we stayed mostly in Decatur which always struck me as a horrible
place to ride.

Curious: Is that your photography? It seems professional grade to me, tho'
my knowledge of photography is minimal and my skills even minimaler.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 9:17 AM John Dewey  wrote:

> Well, LONELY PLANET disagrees, with this to say:
>
> https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/best-places-for-a-cycling-holiday
>
> I've lived both places as cyclist, and confirm LP. Athens, with its
> year-round warm sunny days, an endless matrix of beautiful quiet country
> lanes (i.e. no traffic), delightful hills (mountains neaby), pine forests,
> no traffic is a cycling wonderland like no other. Not comparable. Add the
> music, UGA for culture, enviable culinary arts, ticks all the boxes.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/146626768@N06/albums/72157709138882807
>
> Jock Dewey
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Bike Day - 2002 Size 60 Rambouillet

[Patrick Moore]

Those 2 Orange Rams make me nostalgic for my blue one from some 10 years
ago; yes a very nice bike for aimless afternoon rides and with just enough
room for 32s and fenders. I rode mine with 1.35" Kojaks; it would have been
transformed with extralight RH tires. Actually, it *was* transformed with
Paris Roubaix open tubulars. Please (both of you) show more photos and
describe the feel of the bike after you ride it more.

Also, I'll be interested to hear more of others' opinions on the Ram (and
Roadeo, Roadini, RoadUno, Quickbeam, Simpleone, Road Standard, and Longlow)
versus Legolas.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 8:47 AM 'Joel S' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Beautiful, enjoy it, these older Rivendell bikes are my preferred models.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Patrick Moore]

Bob: Do you know how low a Q you can get on the Prospector, Scapegoat,
Chimera and Bull Thistle, particularly with a single speed drivetrain (if
any accept a ss drivetrain)? I've stayed away from Pugsleys etc because of
the Q but if one can be built as a ss with a Q of no more than 160 I'd be
very interested for our local sandy trails. As it is, I've been thinking of
a 29er+ replacement for my Monocog 29er on which the rear 71 mm WTB ranger
rubs the stays in corners but fat would be even better if the Q could be
sorted.

Thanks.



On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 6:12 PM Bob  wrote:

> Joe,
>
> The final iteration of Surly's Pugsley had 460 mm chainstays and accepted
> 4.8 in. tires "with drivetrain restrictions." It also had a 72° seat tube
> angle, which would feel a little more relaxed and Rivish than the steeper
> angles on MTBs these days.
>
> The Tumbleweed Prospector and the Crust Scapegoat max out at 4.0 in.
> tires, I think, but have 73 mm bottom brackets for a more comfortable Q
> factor. (I ride a Pugsley, and have a limited tolerance for the 200 mm Q
> factor.)
>
> If you go custom, Myth Cycles in Durango CO has the Chimera (
> https://mythcycles.com/bikes/chimera/). The listed geometry is shorter in
> chainstay and wheelbase than you want, evidently the design allows a
> narrower Q than usual for a fatbike while also accommodating 4.8 in. tires.
>
> That Tanglefoot Bull Thistle, though… wow. They present it as a
> drop-bar-specific design, but the top tube and reach are long enough to
> work with an upright bar, I think. Limited to 4.0 in. tires, but the bottom
> bracket is 83 mm so the Q factor will be narrower than most fatbikes. The
> angles (ST 71°, HT 69.5°) rather Riv-like, and the lugs—the LUGS!
>
> I'm curious to see how your quest plays out.
>
> --
> Bob
>

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Re: [RBW] Sharing Your Fall Foliage Fotos 2022

[Ted Durant]

Beautiful!

"Wicked Pissah” … I grew up in Cohasset … I know what that means.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

> On Dec 17, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Russell Duncan  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Fall colors of a different sort: native grassland, Flint Hills, Kansas. 
> Sorry, no actual Riv bike to show. I don’t own one, yet. Close, a Mercian, 
> but no cigar. I do buy bicycle parts and other stuff from Rivendell though, 
> including Possum and Wooly Warm clothing. I use it on and off the bike. 
> Wicked Pissah clothing for the back country in the winter.
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Bob]

Patrick,

I do not, sorry to say. Would like to have those data myself. Anyone here 
have a Prospector, a caliper, and a few minutes to take measurements?

--
Bob

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 1:17:49 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Bob: Do you know how low a Q you can get on the Prospector, Scapegoat, 
> Chimera and Bull Thistle, particularly with a single speed drivetrain (if 
> any accept a ss drivetrain)? I've stayed away from Pugsleys etc because of 
> the Q but if one can be built as a ss with a Q of no more than 160 I'd be 
> very interested for our local sandy trails. As it is, I've been thinking of 
> a 29er+ replacement for my Monocog 29er on which the rear 71 mm WTB ranger 
> rubs the stays in corners but fat would be even better if the Q could be 
> sorted. 
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 6:12 PM Bob  wrote:
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> The final iteration of Surly's Pugsley had 460 mm chainstays and accepted 
>> 4.8 in. tires "with drivetrain restrictions." It also had a 72° seat tube 
>> angle, which would feel a little more relaxed and Rivish than the steeper 
>> angles on MTBs these days.
>>
>> The Tumbleweed Prospector and the Crust Scapegoat max out at 4.0 in. 
>> tires, I think, but have 73 mm bottom brackets for a more comfortable Q 
>> factor. (I ride a Pugsley, and have a limited tolerance for the 200 mm Q 
>> factor.)
>>
>> If you go custom, Myth Cycles in Durango CO has the Chimera (
>> https://mythcycles.com/bikes/chimera/). The listed geometry is shorter 
>> in chainstay and wheelbase than you want, evidently the design allows a 
>> narrower Q than usual for a fatbike while also accommodating 4.8 in. tires.
>>
>> That Tanglefoot Bull Thistle, though… wow. They present it as a 
>> drop-bar-specific design, but the top tube and reach are long enough to 
>> work with an upright bar, I think. Limited to 4.0 in. tires, but the bottom 
>> bracket is 83 mm so the Q factor will be narrower than most fatbikes. The 
>> angles (ST 71°, HT 69.5°) rather Riv-like, and the lugs—the LUGS!
>>
>> I'm curious to see how your quest plays out.
>>
>> --
>> Bob
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Philip Williamson]

If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California. 
If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.

Philip 
Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF) 

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County. 
> We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson  
> wrote:
>
>> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>>
>> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of 
>>> cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the 
>>> "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted 
>>> by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up 
>>> and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads 
>>> equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to 
>>> wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.
>>
>> -- 
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Joe Bernard]

For the record I'm not the OP, which is why Keith deleted the post you're 
replying to. Fortunately his info was helpful anyway, but Joe B. who 
started a fatbike thread on internet-bob is not Joe D. who started this 
one! 

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:16:48 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Not to crowed Joe's questions, but this answers many of my questions about 
> fatbikes too; and I didn't know that there are 3.25 and 3.5 650B tires. So 
> thanks Keith for this detail. I've already found that no Riv can take full 
> 3"/76 mm 700C tires, alas.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:06 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> before throwing in my 2 cents, I want to acknowledge that this is not 
>> really answering your questions but, instead, telling you to do something 
>> different.   I usually get annoyed when people answer a direct question 
>> with "you don't need that" but, in this case, my friend, I know enough 
>> about you and your bike-purchase-and-subsequent-regret habits to want to 
>> save you some hassle.  Others have already mentioned a couple of the ideas 
>> I was going to offer, but here it is with more explanation:
>>
>> I haven't read through  your other ibob thread completely, but do 
>> understand that much of your interest comes from wanting to relieve wrist 
>> discomfort - especially on rough trails..  So this response is partly in 
>> consideration of that question.
>>
>>
>> *"Novelty" concerns:* I was a pretty early adopter of fat bikes. They're 
>> the only kind of bike I can even ride for fully 6 months of the year or 
>> more, due to the amount of snow where I live. (Along with northern 
>> Minnesota and Anchorage, my area - the sister communities of Teton County 
>> Idaho and Teton County Wyoming - were where much of the early fatbike 
>> development occurred.) For a number of years around 2010 or so, I rode a 
>> fat bike almost exclusively, all year. I liked it for it's back-to-basics, 
>> monster-truck, roll-over-anything simplicity. But, even for an retro-grouch 
>> like me who lives in a place where they make complete sense, that appeal 
>> eventually wore off and I now only ride it when no other bike will work. 
>> Most people who get fat bikes enjoy the novelty for an even shorter period 
>> of time. They eventually tire of the extra rolling resistance and steering 
>> compromises and increased q- factor and mechanical complications and 
>> weight. Then they quit riding them. 
>>
>> *Tire Size considerations*: Keep in mind that there have been HUGE 
>> advances in tire manufacturing and technology since (and because) 26" fat 
>> bike tires were invented - even though that wasn't all that long ago. 2008, 
>> maybe? Much of what made 26x4 tires work so well was their diameter, which 
>> was similar to the not-much-older 29er development. But, unless you really 
>> plan on riding in loose sand or deep snow most of the time, there is no 
>> longer any advantage to 4" tires. There are now some 650b semi-fat tires 
>> that give you almost all of the advantages of 26x4 with none of the 
>> problems. If you think about it, there's nothing more "rivendell-esqe" than 
>> 650b, right? They wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Rivendell! 
>>
>> *Regarding suspension and bounciness*: The best thing about fat bikes is 
>> that they eliminate the need for suspension for most "normal" riding. But 
>> it takes a lot of effort to tune the tire pressure to really take advantage 
>> of this. Almost as much hassle as dealing with shock rebound rates and 
>> pressure settings, etc. on a true full-suspension bike. When you get tire 
>> pressure >just< right, you don't bounce at all, and you don't have funny 
>> steering or excessive rolling inefficiency. But the optimum pressure 
>> requirement changes depending on terrain and load, so you end up fussing 
>> with it a lot. (or giving up and getting frustrated with the ride qualities 
>> - a la the "novelty wearing off topic." ) The REALLY important thing to 
>> keep in mind here is that the bigger the tire volume / cross section, the 
>> more sensitive it is  to pressure adjustments, and the more you need to 
>> mess with it. So you're absolutely better off only getting as much tire as 
>> you really need! 4" is really overkill most of the time, now that there are 
>> intermediate options.
>>
>> *Geometry considerations (and Pugsley concern)*: You specifically asked 
>> about the Puglsey. I'll venture that is probably NOT the bike for you. I 
>> had a first generation pugsly at one point (with canti brakes!) . The thing 
>> about wrist pain - as you know from Grant teaching us - is that it's more 
>> of an issue of frame geometry than it is of tire plushness or vibrations 
>> and impacts being transferred through the bars. In particular, it comes 
>> from bikes with too-low handlebars and too-steep seat tubes angles and 
>> twitchy steering geometries, all conspiring to require you to put lots of 
>> your body weight on the handlebars. They m

Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Matthew Williams]

I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if people
named freeways with “The”:

“This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California

“This is 101” = you’re in Northern California

“That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock station



On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson <
philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California.
> If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.
>
> Philip
> Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF)
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County.
>> We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of
 cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the
 "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted
 by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up
 and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads
 equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to
 wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Joe Bernard]

The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces 
between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties 
you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete 
landscape. 

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:

> I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if people 
> named freeways with “The”:
>
> “This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California
>  
> “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California
>  
> “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock station
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson  
> wrote:
>
>> If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California. 
>> If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.
>>
>> Philip 
>> Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF) 
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt 
>>> County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻

 On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:

> At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of 
> cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the 
> "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos 
> posted 
> by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up 
> and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads 
> equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have 
> to 
> wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.

 -- 

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 .

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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Southern California: Distance expressed in time (Anaheim is 45 minutes from here)Northern California: Distance expressed in miles (Folsom is 12 miles away)And yes, up here the cities have actual edges, where you’re out in the country on the way to the next city.--Eric N, Who Moved From SoCal to NorCal 25 years Ago and Has Never Looked BackOn Dec 20, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete landscape. On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if people named freeways with “The”:“This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock stationOn Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson  wrote:If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California. If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.Philip Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF) On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com wrote:The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson  wrote:Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.



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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Curtis McKenzie]

Philip just may have something there.

https://local.safeway.com/safeway/ca.html

Curtis
"Who occasionally shops at Safeway"

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 2:01 PM Philip Williamson 
wrote:

> If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California.
> If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.
>
> Philip
> Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF)
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County.
>> We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of
 cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the
 "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted
 by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up
 and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads
 equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to
 wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[藍俊彪]

This is hilarious. I'll pile on with my brother's story. He got rejected by
UC Berkeley and accepted by UCLA. Not to be deterred, he wrote an appeal
letter that stated: "Don't let me go to UCLA. After 4 years there I won't
know what a tree looks like." UC Berkeley reversed its denial and enrolled
him.

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:50 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Southern California: Distance expressed in time (Anaheim is 45 minutes
> from here)
>
> Northern California: Distance expressed in miles (Folsom is 12 miles away)
>
> And yes, up here the cities have actual edges, where you’re out in the
> country on the way to the next city.
>
> --Eric N, Who Moved From SoCal to NorCal 25 years Ago and Has Never Looked
> Back
>
> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces
> between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties
> you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete
> landscape.
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:
>
>> I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if
>> people named freeways with “The”:
>>
>> “This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California
>>
>> “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California
>>
>> “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock station
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California.
>>> If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.
>>>
>>> Philip
>>> Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF)
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt
 County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson 
 wrote:

> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>
> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:
>
>> At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of
>> cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the
>> "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos 
>> posted
>> by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up
>> and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads
>> equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have 
>> to
>> wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not 
>> really.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The San Francisco Randonneurs are notorious for using Safeways as controls on their brevets. If you know the layout for a typical Safeway, you can save a lot of time hunting for your favorite rest stop snacks when you’re riding with SFR.--Eric NOn Dec 20, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Piaw Na  wrote:This is hilarious. I'll pile on with my brother's story. He got rejected by UC Berkeley and accepted by UCLA. Not to be deterred, he wrote an appeal letter that stated: "Don't let me go to UCLA. After 4 years there I won't know what a tree looks like." UC Berkeley reversed its denial and enrolled him.On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:50 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch  wrote:Southern California: Distance expressed in time (Anaheim is 45 minutes from here)Northern California: Distance expressed in miles (Folsom is 12 miles away)And yes, up here the cities have actual edges, where you’re out in the country on the way to the next city.--Eric N, Who Moved From SoCal to NorCal 25 years Ago and Has Never Looked BackOn Dec 20, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete landscape. On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if people named freeways with “The”:“This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock stationOn Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson  wrote:If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California. If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.Philip Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF) On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com wrote:The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson  wrote:Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick wrote:At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of the "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos posted by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling up and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and roads equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have to wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not really.



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Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Joe Bernard]

On an entirely unrelated note, I mentioned on Twitter last week that I 
finally noticed the name, Safeway..why is it called that?? I'm informed 
that back in the olden times before FDA it was a promise of safe food. So 
there ya go. 

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 3:03:35 PM UTC-8 campyo...@me.com wrote:

> The San Francisco Randonneurs are notorious for using Safeways as controls 
> on their brevets. If you know the layout for a typical Safeway, you can 
> save a lot of time hunting for your favorite rest stop snacks when you’re 
> riding with SFR.
>
> --Eric N
>
> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Piaw Na  wrote:
>
> 
>
> This is hilarious. I'll pile on with my brother's story. He got rejected 
> by UC Berkeley and accepted by UCLA. Not to be deterred, he wrote an appeal 
> letter that stated: "Don't let me go to UCLA. After 4 years there I won't 
> know what a tree looks like." UC Berkeley reversed its denial and enrolled 
> him.
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:50 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Southern California: Distance expressed in time (Anaheim is 45 minutes 
>> from here)
>>
>> Northern California: Distance expressed in miles (Folsom is 12 miles away)
>>
>> And yes, up here the cities have actual edges, where you’re out in the 
>> country on the way to the next city.
>>
>> --Eric N, Who Moved From SoCal to NorCal 25 years Ago and Has Never 
>> Looked Back
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces 
>> between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties 
>> you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete 
>> landscape. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if 
>>> people named freeways with “The”:
>>>
>>> “This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California
>>>  
>>> “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California
>>>  
>>> “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock station
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California. 
 If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.

 Philip 
 Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF) 

 On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt 
> County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson  
> wrote:
>
>> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>>
>> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of 
>>> cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of 
>>> the 
>>> "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos 
>>> posted 
>>> by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling 
>>> up 
>>> and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and 
>>> roads 
>>> equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we have 
>>> to 
>>> wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not 
>>> really.
>>
>> -- 
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>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/81df271f-fedb-40d4-8b20-3a9261a23848n%40googlegroups.com
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>> 
>> .
>>
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 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5d63a806-d18b-4c80-a320-be317742a591n%40googlegroups.com
  
 
 .

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Hoch in ut]

I’ve owned a number of fat bikes. One I thought was the most Riv-esque was 
the Ritchey Commando. I don’t think they make them anymore. But you may be 
able to find a used one. They rode fantastic. Chainstays were relatively 
long. 
Regarding chainstays, it was just fine in snow. Mike C’s point of short 
stays has some merit, but remember it’s just one guy’s opinion. He’s also 
said in the past that rigid and hard tail bikes were useless and 
full-suspension was the only way to go. I wholeheartedly disagreed with 
that. 
If you ever meet him, ask what he thinks of lugged steel rigid frames with 
rim brakes! 
Don’t put much weight of what he or others say. Go test it out for 
yourself. 
On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 3:04:21 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> For the record I'm not the OP, which is why Keith deleted the post you're 
> replying to. Fortunately his info was helpful anyway, but Joe B. who 
> started a fatbike thread on internet-bob is not Joe D. who started this 
> one! 
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:16:48 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Not to crowed Joe's questions, but this answers many of my questions 
>> about fatbikes too; and I didn't know that there are 3.25 and 3.5 650B 
>> tires. So thanks Keith for this detail. I've already found that no Riv can 
>> take full 3"/76 mm 700C tires, alas.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:06 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> before throwing in my 2 cents, I want to acknowledge that this is not 
>>> really answering your questions but, instead, telling you to do something 
>>> different.   I usually get annoyed when people answer a direct question 
>>> with "you don't need that" but, in this case, my friend, I know enough 
>>> about you and your bike-purchase-and-subsequent-regret habits to want to 
>>> save you some hassle.  Others have already mentioned a couple of the ideas 
>>> I was going to offer, but here it is with more explanation:
>>>
>>> I haven't read through  your other ibob thread completely, but do 
>>> understand that much of your interest comes from wanting to relieve wrist 
>>> discomfort - especially on rough trails..  So this response is partly in 
>>> consideration of that question.
>>>
>>>
>>> *"Novelty" concerns:* I was a pretty early adopter of fat bikes. 
>>> They're the only kind of bike I can even ride for fully 6 months of the 
>>> year or more, due to the amount of snow where I live. (Along with northern 
>>> Minnesota and Anchorage, my area - the sister communities of Teton County 
>>> Idaho and Teton County Wyoming - were where much of the early fatbike 
>>> development occurred.) For a number of years around 2010 or so, I rode a 
>>> fat bike almost exclusively, all year. I liked it for it's back-to-basics, 
>>> monster-truck, roll-over-anything simplicity. But, even for an retro-grouch 
>>> like me who lives in a place where they make complete sense, that appeal 
>>> eventually wore off and I now only ride it when no other bike will work. 
>>> Most people who get fat bikes enjoy the novelty for an even shorter period 
>>> of time. They eventually tire of the extra rolling resistance and steering 
>>> compromises and increased q- factor and mechanical complications and 
>>> weight. Then they quit riding them. 
>>>
>>> *Tire Size considerations*: Keep in mind that there have been HUGE 
>>> advances in tire manufacturing and technology since (and because) 26" fat 
>>> bike tires were invented - even though that wasn't all that long ago. 2008, 
>>> maybe? Much of what made 26x4 tires work so well was their diameter, which 
>>> was similar to the not-much-older 29er development. But, unless you really 
>>> plan on riding in loose sand or deep snow most of the time, there is no 
>>> longer any advantage to 4" tires. There are now some 650b semi-fat tires 
>>> that give you almost all of the advantages of 26x4 with none of the 
>>> problems. If you think about it, there's nothing more "rivendell-esqe" than 
>>> 650b, right? They wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Rivendell! 
>>>
>>> *Regarding suspension and bounciness*: The best thing about fat bikes 
>>> is that they eliminate the need for suspension for most "normal" riding. 
>>> But it takes a lot of effort to tune the tire pressure to really take 
>>> advantage of this. Almost as much hassle as dealing with shock rebound 
>>> rates and pressure settings, etc. on a true full-suspension bike. When you 
>>> get tire pressure >just< right, you don't bounce at all, and you don't have 
>>> funny steering or excessive rolling inefficiency. But the optimum pressure 
>>> requirement changes depending on terrain and load, so you end up fussing 
>>> with it a lot. (or giving up and getting frustrated with the ride qualities 
>>> - a la the "novelty wearing off topic." ) The REALLY important thing to 
>>> keep in mind here is that the bigger the tire volume / cross section, the 
>>> more sensitive it is  to pressure adjustments, and the more you need to 
>>> mess 

Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[James Warren]

When a Mason-Dixon line needs to be established in CA, it'll be called the
Safeway-Vons line.

Quiz: for any major north-south freeway or highway, what are the two cities
that straddle the Safeway-Vons line?

Related question: King City: which store do they have?

Related Cliff Claven Trivia: when I was a kid growing up in Los Angeles and
San Diego suburbs, Vons and Safeway were two different stores. In 1989 they
merged, and all of our Southern California Safeways got renamed Vons. So
many of our suburban shopping centers ended up with two Vons's as anchors
on either end when it used to be Safeway at one end and Vons at the other.

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> On an entirely unrelated note, I mentioned on Twitter last week that I
> finally noticed the name, Safeway..why is it called that?? I'm informed
> that back in the olden times before FDA it was a promise of safe food. So
> there ya go.
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 3:03:35 PM UTC-8 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>
>> The San Francisco Randonneurs are notorious for using Safeways as
>> controls on their brevets. If you know the layout for a typical Safeway,
>> you can save a lot of time hunting for your favorite rest stop snacks when
>> you’re riding with SFR.
>>
>> --Eric N
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Piaw Na  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> This is hilarious. I'll pile on with my brother's story. He got rejected
>> by UC Berkeley and accepted by UCLA. Not to be deterred, he wrote an appeal
>> letter that stated: "Don't let me go to UCLA. After 4 years there I won't
>> know what a tree looks like." UC Berkeley reversed its denial and enrolled
>> him.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:50 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Southern California: Distance expressed in time (Anaheim is 45 minutes
>>> from here)
>>>
>>> Northern California: Distance expressed in miles (Folsom is 12 miles
>>> away)
>>>
>>> And yes, up here the cities have actual edges, where you’re out in the
>>> country on the way to the next city.
>>>
>>> --Eric N, Who Moved From SoCal to NorCal 25 years Ago and Has Never
>>> Looked Back
>>>
>>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> The differentiation for me when I moved north in 1988 is there's spaces
>>> between towns in Northern California. If you grew up in LA/Orange Counties
>>> you understood towns as different signs on the same vast concrete
>>> landscape.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 2:13:42 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:
>>>
 I thought the way you knew Northern from Southern California was if
 people named freeways with “The”:

 “This is the 101” = you’re in Southern California

 “This is 101” = you’re in Northern California

 “That was Highway 101” = you’re listening to a classic rock station



 On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 2:01 PM Philip Williamson <
 philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you have a Safeway, you're in Northern California.
> If you've got a Vons, you're in SoCal.
>
> Philip
> Sonoma County, Calif (born in SF)
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:17:22 PM UTC-8 freefo...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> The Bay Area isn't Northern California says the guy from Humboldt
>> County. We have way less traffic and better air. 😉
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 9:54 PM Luke Hendrickson <
>> phendr...@paulpath.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dude living in San Francisco here: it’s pretty great 💅🏻
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 2:26:54 PM UTC-8 George Schick
>>> wrote:
>>>
 At this time of the year I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of
 cyclists who live in California, especially in the the NoCal area of 
 the
 "Frisco" bay.  Lately I've been leering enviously at YouTube videos 
 posted
 by "Henry Wildberry" where he and his riding companion(s) are cycling 
 up
 and down some excellent North Bay area hilly/mountainous paths and 
 roads
 equipped with little more than "fair weather" garments vs. what we 
 have to
 wear in the Midwest Winters. Makes me want to move there...but not 
 really.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/81df271f-fedb-40d4-8b20-3a9261a23848n%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "RBW Ow

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[Ryan Frahm]

Mike has a lot of opinions. He builds excellent wheels. What he is looking 
for is not necessarily what a Rivendell rider might be looking for in a 
bike. He is an aggressive rider. If you are serious about a long chainstay 
fat bike, it might be worth checking out Mahall Bikeworks. It is custom so 
it won’t be cheap, but I’ve read some about him experimenting with 
Rivendell long stays on some adventure bikes that made me interested. It 
has been a while so the details are fuzzy to me, but I was very interested. 
He can even make it lugged!

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 3:24:50 PM UTC-8 Hoch in ut wrote:

>
> I’ve owned a number of fat bikes. One I thought was the most Riv-esque was 
> the Ritchey Commando. I don’t think they make them anymore. But you may be 
> able to find a used one. They rode fantastic. Chainstays were relatively 
> long. 
> Regarding chainstays, it was just fine in snow. Mike C’s point of short 
> stays has some merit, but remember it’s just one guy’s opinion. He’s also 
> said in the past that rigid and hard tail bikes were useless and 
> full-suspension was the only way to go. I wholeheartedly disagreed with 
> that. 
> If you ever meet him, ask what he thinks of lugged steel rigid frames with 
> rim brakes! 
> Don’t put much weight of what he or others say. Go test it out for 
> yourself. 
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 3:04:21 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> For the record I'm not the OP, which is why Keith deleted the post you're 
>> replying to. Fortunately his info was helpful anyway, but Joe B. who 
>> started a fatbike thread on internet-bob is not Joe D. who started this 
>> one! 
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:16:48 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> Not to crowed Joe's questions, but this answers many of my questions 
>>> about fatbikes too; and I didn't know that there are 3.25 and 3.5 650B 
>>> tires. So thanks Keith for this detail. I've already found that no Riv can 
>>> take full 3"/76 mm 700C tires, alas.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:06 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>>>
 Joe,

 before throwing in my 2 cents, I want to acknowledge that this is not 
 really answering your questions but, instead, telling you to do something 
 different.   I usually get annoyed when people answer a direct question 
 with "you don't need that" but, in this case, my friend, I know enough 
 about you and your bike-purchase-and-subsequent-regret habits to want to 
 save you some hassle.  Others have already mentioned a couple of the ideas 
 I was going to offer, but here it is with more explanation:

 I haven't read through  your other ibob thread completely, but do 
 understand that much of your interest comes from wanting to relieve wrist 
 discomfort - especially on rough trails..  So this response is partly in 
 consideration of that question.


 *"Novelty" concerns:* I was a pretty early adopter of fat bikes. 
 They're the only kind of bike I can even ride for fully 6 months of the 
 year or more, due to the amount of snow where I live. (Along with northern 
 Minnesota and Anchorage, my area - the sister communities of Teton County 
 Idaho and Teton County Wyoming - were where much of the early fatbike 
 development occurred.) For a number of years around 2010 or so, I rode a 
 fat bike almost exclusively, all year. I liked it for it's back-to-basics, 
 monster-truck, roll-over-anything simplicity. But, even for an 
 retro-grouch 
 like me who lives in a place where they make complete sense, that appeal 
 eventually wore off and I now only ride it when no other bike will work. 
 Most people who get fat bikes enjoy the novelty for an even shorter period 
 of time. They eventually tire of the extra rolling resistance and steering 
 compromises and increased q- factor and mechanical complications and 
 weight. Then they quit riding them. 

 *Tire Size considerations*: Keep in mind that there have been HUGE 
 advances in tire manufacturing and technology since (and because) 26" fat 
 bike tires were invented - even though that wasn't all that long ago. 
 2008, 
 maybe? Much of what made 26x4 tires work so well was their diameter, which 
 was similar to the not-much-older 29er development. But, unless you really 
 plan on riding in loose sand or deep snow most of the time, there is no 
 longer any advantage to 4" tires. There are now some 650b semi-fat tires 
 that give you almost all of the advantages of 26x4 with none of the 
 problems. If you think about it, there's nothing more "rivendell-esqe" 
 than 
 650b, right? They wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Rivendell! 

 *Regarding suspension and bounciness*: The best thing about fat bikes 
 is that they eliminate the need for suspension for most "normal" riding. 
 But it takes a lot of effort to tune the tire pressure to reall

Re: [RBW] Re: NorCal Cycling

[Peter Adler]

1-2) King City (on 101) and Fresno (on Hwy 99) appear to be the 
southernmost outposts of Safeway on major highways. It looks like Vons 
picks up in Bakersfield (99) and Goleta, outside Santa Barbara (101). 
Interstate 5 is on the dry west side of the San Joaquin Valley, so it 
doesn't really have much in the way of large towns or accompanying 
supermarkets; there's a Save Mart in Coalinga just off the highway, and 
another in Visalia on 99.

Bakersfield has two Vons and three Wal-Marts.

3) Something similar happened up here in the Bay Area about 12 years ago, 
when a small local chain named Andronico's* went under. Safeway bought up 
all the Andronico's real estate and outstanding leases, converting the 
store on Shattuck Avenue in Berkeley's Gourmet Ghetto (across the street 
from Chez Panisse, in the same block as the Cheese Board, two blocks from 
the Mother Peet's) into a Safeway in spite of the fact that Safeway owned a 
newly redeveloped store one block away. Continuing further along Shattuck 
through the Solano Tunnel to Solano Avenue, there's an 
Andronico's-turned-Safeway about one mile away (north, roughly) from the 
original Shattuck Safeway. Then, continuing west along Solano into 
neighboring Albany, there's a Safeway that was always a Safeway one mile 
west of the Upper Solano ex-Andronico's Safeway.

I find the logic of this multiplicity confusing. And to top it off, one 
mile north of the Lower Solano Safeway is El Cerrito Plaza, which contains 
a Lucky's Supermarket - a chain which, like Safeway, is owned by the 
Albertson's Group. The former Andronico'ses in Berkeley have been rebranded 
as "Andronico's Community Markets", but the merch is much the same as the 
alternating Safeways, and the same newspaper sales prices apply.

If Kroger and Albertson's merge, then it'll be Buy n Large from coast to 
coast outside the southeast.

*originally based in SF's Inner Sunset district; they'd bought up a few 
other local chains, including the two stores that the Berkeley Co-op owned 
outright when they shut down in 1988 - the original store on University 
Avenue (my home store, where my dad was a board member and the newspaper 
publisher in the 60s) and the fancy store on Shattuck in the Gourmet 
Ghetto. The land was worth more than the organization; the 99-year lease 
for the Telegraph/Ashby store was sold to Whole Foods

Peter "the old story was that the frontier was the Tehachapi" Adler
*plus ça change, plus c'est la même supermarché *en
Berkeley, CA/USA

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC-8 Jimmy Warren wrote:

> When a Mason-Dixon line needs to be established in CA, it'll be called the 
> Safeway-Vons line.
>
> Quiz: for any major north-south freeway or highway, what are the two 
> cities that straddle the Safeway-Vons line?
>
> Related question: King City: which store do they have?
>
> Related Cliff Claven Trivia: when I was a kid growing up in Los Angeles 
> and San Diego suburbs, Vons and Safeway were two different stores. In 1989 
> they merged, and all of our Southern California Safeways got renamed Vons. 
> So many of our suburban shopping centers ended up with two Vons's as 
> anchors on either end when it used to be Safeway at one end and Vons at the 
> other.
>

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Re: [RBW] ISO: Missing Link wheel building book

[Slin]

Btw, I ordered the newest edition of the Roger Musson's book and there are 
a lot of additions since the one found on github.com. Just fyi!

On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 4:57:42 PM UTC-8 Slin wrote:

> I'm still on the lookout for the Missing Link book though!
>
> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 4:41:16 PM UTC-8 Slin wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I just laced up my first wheel yesterday using the Jim Langley 
>> video and Sheldon Brown's website. The video helped me with some small 
>> things like how to hold spokes and nipples to make it smoother and using a 
>> spare spoke to hold the nipples when attaching them.
>>
>> I'll see how things go when I start truing the wheel. Wish me luck!
>>
>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-8 RichS wrote:
>>
>>> +1 on the Jim Langley video. I have referred to that along with Jobst's 
>>> book and Sheldon's web site.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Rich in ATL
>>>
>>> On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 8:41:58 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:
>>>
 Also this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUqul03hbZ8



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Re: [RBW] FS: Suntour XC PRO pedals, toe clips and straps

[Kim Hetzel]

Suntour XC PRO pedals, toe clips and straps -SOLD !

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:16:48 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Kim: If these are still available and if they have the GreaseGuard 
> feature, I'll take them. Will you accept $75 shipped to 87120>
>
> Thanks, Patrick
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:50 PM Kim Hetzel  wrote:
>
>> I have for sale one pair of Suntour XC PRO black pedals with toe clips 
>> and straps. The threads are 9/16". Very little wear.
>>
>> Asking $75.00 or best offer, plus shipping in the CONUS via Paypal.
>> ... more pictures upon request.
>>
>> Kim Hetzel
>> Yelm, WA 
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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[RBW] Re: For sale: Last few Suntour caps

[Eric Marth]

All sold, thanks! 

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 6:55:43 PM UTC-5 Eric Marth wrote:

> Hi all — I have a few Suntour caps left and ready to ship. The price is 
> $30 shipped CON-US. Please contact me directly to purchase. 
>
> They're on charcoal gray caps with white embroidery, cloth strap in back 
> with a brass-ish closure buckle. No branding on strap or buckle, very 
> plain. 
>
> I'll probably make another batch before too long. 
>
> Thanks! 
>
> [image: IMG_4268.jpg]
>

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[RBW] Re: For sale: Last few Suntour caps

[Joe Bernard]

I got one! Now I just need to put something Suntour on one of my bikes, 
they both have SRAM drivetrains, what have I become?? 😲

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 7:35:13 PM UTC-8 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> All sold, thanks! 
>
> On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 6:55:43 PM UTC-5 Eric Marth wrote:
>
>> Hi all — I have a few Suntour caps left and ready to ship. The price is 
>> $30 shipped CON-US. Please contact me directly to purchase. 
>>
>> They're on charcoal gray caps with white embroidery, cloth strap in back 
>> with a brass-ish closure buckle. No branding on strap or buckle, very 
>> plain. 
>>
>> I'll probably make another batch before too long. 
>>
>> Thanks! 
>>
>> [image: IMG_4268.jpg]
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell-esq fat bike

[rltilley]

I just measured my Prospector with Rohloff and measured a Q of 185 mm. I could likely shave a few mm off with with a different crank.Robert TilleySan Diego, CASent from my iPhoneOn Dec 20, 2022, at 1:33 PM, Bob  wrote:Patrick,I do not, sorry to say. Would like to have those data myself. Anyone here have a Prospector, a caliper, and a few minutes to take measurements?--BobOn Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 1:17:49 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:Bob: Do you know how low a Q you can get on the Prospector, Scapegoat, Chimera and Bull Thistle, particularly with a single speed drivetrain (if any accept a ss drivetrain)? I've stayed away from Pugsleys etc because of the Q but if one can be built as a ss with a Q of no more than 160 I'd be very interested for our local sandy trails. As it is, I've been thinking of a 29er+ replacement for my Monocog 29er on which the rear 71 mm WTB ranger rubs the stays in corners but fat would be even better if the Q could be sorted. Thanks.On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 6:12 PM Bob  wrote:Joe,The final iteration of Surly's Pugsley had 460 mm chainstays and accepted 4.8 in. tires "with drivetrain restrictions." It also had a 72° seat tube angle, which would feel a little more relaxed and Rivish than the steeper angles on MTBs these days.The Tumbleweed Prospector and the Crust Scapegoat max out at 4.0 in. tires, I think, but have 73 mm bottom brackets for a more comfortable Q factor. (I ride a Pugsley, and have a limited tolerance for the 200 mm Q factor.)If you go custom, Myth Cycles in Durango CO has the Chimera (https://mythcycles.com/bikes/chimera/). The listed geometry is shorter in chainstay and wheelbase than you want, evidently the design allows a narrower Q than usual for a fatbike while also accommodating 4.8 in. tires.That Tanglefoot Bull Thistle, though… wow. They present it as a drop-bar-specific design, but the top tube and reach are long enough to work with an upright bar, I think. Limited to 4.0 in. tires, but the bottom bracket is 83 mm so the Q factor will be narrower than most fatbikes. The angles (ST 71°, HT 69.5°) rather Riv-like, and the lugs—the LUGS!I'm curious to see how your quest plays out.--Bob



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