[RBW] Re: New Bike Day—Retirement Bike

[Roberta]

I just realized I had mistyped the name of the gentleman who painted the 
hearts, circles and dots--his name is Leks.

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 8:40:01 PM UTC-5 Roberta wrote:

> What’s old is new:  circa 2010 Betty Foy!
>
> Let me explain why this and not a custom I was hoping for.
>
> For the past nearly three years, I’ve been “next up” on Rivendell’s list 
> for a custom retirement bike, something I’ve wanted since I found Rivendell 
> in 2017.  I wanted something 1) like my 55cm Platypus, but shorter (I 
> didn’t say short, just short-*er*) specifically so I could take it on the 
> city bus bike rack and Amtrak, that 2) fits and rides like my 2019 54.5 
> Homer.
>
> During one of our many conversations, the ever so patient Vince suggested 
> a Betty Foy.  When I saw one posted on RBW’s Craigslist thread, I drove 
> to Brooklyn, test rode and brought it home, and thanked the RBW poster.  I 
> think this bike is from the first batch of Betty’s because only one heart 
> lug was (notice the past tense) filled in and the seat tube is 58cm.  The 
> color is not robin’s egg blue, but more of a sage/teal, which I like more.
>
> It’s about as close to a custom as I think Grant would have built for 
> me—650b wheels, just under the Amtrak length limit by ½”, fits on our city 
> bus bike racks, rides great and no toe overlap.  Perhaps not a cushy as 
> my Platypus with its extra-long wheelbase, but if I’m on my Betty, I have 
> more options for mass transportation.  The only thing I wish it had was 
> an additional water bottle mount, but I remedied that with a water bottle 
> bag on the handlebar, big enough to hold a 40 oz Kleen Kanteen.
>
> 1X9 Drive train (38T Wolf Tooth in front with Microshift Aventex in back), 
> Albatross handlebar, brakes (Tektro R553)  and Gravel King Slick tires 
> are as I purchased the bike.
>
> I added “extras”—SKS fenders with custom mud flaps (made by a little girl 
> whose Dad is on the iBob board 
> https://groups.google.com/g/internet-bob/c/M_iDE82EhkI/m/FZG8bZzMAQAJ ), 
> red Ergon grips and Newbaum’s tape for pop of color, German mirrors, 
> Greenfield kickstand, 32 spoke Velocity A23 rims with tubeless setup, and 
> Dyno lighting SP hub with Edulux light on front and B&M Topline Plus light 
> in the back.  Bitex hub in the rear. Axiom rack.  Brooks B68 saddle in 
> honey, but I might try the newly re-issued B72 albeit in brown.
>
> Keystone Bike https://keystone.bike/ did amazing work with the extras, 
> and featured the bike on their IG page a few weeks ago. 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/C0WqS6_OzqA/?img_index=1 .   If you’re ever 
> in Philadelphia, I highly recommend a stop at their shop.  They 
> understand Rivendells (and even own a few).
>
> I did do one way-over-the-top (for me, at least) item—I had all the hearts 
> paint matched and filled by a meticulous and true professional—Lek, 
> https://www.instagram.com/lekerleks/ , who also builds Albacore 
> handlebars available at https://hopecyclery.com/ .  My favorite heart is 
> the one on the back side of the seat tube—an “Easter egg” that I see every 
> time I use my basket, which is every ride.  I asked him to fill in the 
> hearts and he returned the bike saying “I just did every open lug window I 
> saw—hearts, circles and dots.”  WOW!
>

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Ted Durant]

> On Dec 25, 2023, at 4:41 PM, Bernard Duhon  wrote:
> 
> 
> Less leg extension, so lower your saddle, there is more toe overlap and 
> finally slightly different muscles are used.  

I found the same. I lowered my saddle height both for slightly less shoe+pedal 
stack height and for foot positioning. 


Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Riv's new handlebar bag

[Roberta]

It's a nice looking bag.  I've been looking for one this size for awhile 
and the best I came up with is Swift's or Brooks.  This one is bigger in 
dimensions and longer (you can fit a bike pump, lunch, additional layer, 
basic flat fixing items and have room left over).  I also like the fact 
that there is an additional internal flap to help protect the contents.

Thanks for the review.  I might put this on my short list.

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all!
> Finally got a ride in on my Clem with the EZPZ mounted & with a light 
> load. Admittedly I have nothing to compare it too but it’s really nice. It 
> does not budge. Solid as a rock & easy to use. It’s really suited to the 
> Clem with the 135 FacePlater & Bosco. Lots of room for it to move (it does 
> not) without coming into contact with the head tube or anything else. No 
> issues with cables either.
> Fit to the Gus with 35mm stem the bag can come into contact with the head 
> tube so I am installing a Swood Twisted T to hold the bag steady in front 
> of the head tube. In short, I highly recommend the bag. First batch sold 
> out so perhaps others will chime in? Will tells me the next batch will be 
> “Olive”.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 22, 2023, at 10:46 PM, Nick Payne  wrote:
>
> 
>
> On Friday 22 December 2023 at 7:02:26 am UTC+11 Chris Halasz wrote:
>
> Does the Routeworks bag rattle?
>
>
> Not since I cut a couple of small rectangles of adhesive-backed foam tape 
> about 2mm thick  and positioned them each side of the catch of the lid, to 
> prevent any play between the lid and catch:
>
> 
>  
> You also need to make sure that the bolt and nylock nut that adjust the 
> tightness of the cam that locks the bag to the mount is set correctly.
>
> Nick Payne
>
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>
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2079dd9c-2934-4d77-9cc4-17a33ad50770n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
> 
>
>

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RE: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Bernard Duhon]

I have a couple of Thompson 0 setback seatpost if your interested.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Garth
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2023 2:23 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Subject: Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

No retention at all for me for that last 20 some years. Since my feet are 
positioned more midfoot and the pedals have good pins to grip Altra Lone 
Peaks(w/150mm cranks), I have no need for anything else. I have no pins on the 
other side and the even then my feet stay in place from feel. .Since moving my 
saddle all the way forward I find my pedaling has become even more 
effective/efficient. Torque + pedal speed = vroom sensation = FUN !  I think 
I'm going to get a zero setback post to try as I'm close to the limit on the 
Cobb saddle with a Ritchey 25mm setback post. As the foot is placed more 
midfoot, I feel much more "planted" to the cranks from my trunk/core. Now that 
I'm going more forward of the BB, I find an aero position more comfortable, and 
now feet are more angled forward/down than before. Picture the classic 
Roadrunner cartoon where at full speed and side angle, the RR's head is forward 
of the feet, the entire body is leaning forward, and the RR is just chillin' 
doing it. The more forward I am of the BB, I'm pushing more back with my entire 
body to the wheel/chainstays, rather than pushing down or forward with my body 
further back of the BB. It's also less strenuous on everything, go figure. So 
now I'm in complete rethink of frame design, I could use a much steeper seat 
tube angle, 73.5-74 ish. This isn't stuff anyone can teach, other than 
encouraging the exploration/creativity to find your way as to what works and 
what doesn't.
On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 1:34:13 PM UTC-5 Robert Tilley wrote:
I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination of foot 
retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was that they 
needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different in size from the 
shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking boots for example. I 
set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for most of the shoes I used 
with the Power Grips.

Robert Tilley
San Diego, CA


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:

The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I rode 
that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki Prestige) 
to that I started reading cycling magazines and learned that the flat pedals I 
had been using since I started riding weren’t the way to go. So I bought some 
Time pedals and cleats for the road bike.  The Schwinn got some clips and 
straps for retention.

At some point I ditched the Time for SPD’s and used those on all bikes for 
years. When I got my Riv custom in 2000 I went in on the retro thing and put 
clips and straps on it but that didn’t last long and the Riv soon got SPD’s as 
well.

Quite a few years back I picked up a Brompton and found the flat, no retention 
pedals on it didn’t feel weird and I did not miss having retention. Since then 
I have most of my bikes set up with flat pedals with pins. I still have my “go 
fast” bike set up with SPD’s and I do put those on my off-road bike when I plan 
to do more technical trails. But most off-road rides I just used flats.

I really like not having to change into different shoes when I ride. Most of my 
riding is commuting/errands so I am not getting “kitted up” for those rides. 
Since I’m not changing into a riding outfit it makes sense to not have to 
change shoes as well.

Robert Tilley
San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 24, 2023, at 5:44 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
out-of-context judgment.

But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how many 
don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use clipless 
systems -- and what kind.

I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with thick, 
soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on un-clipped rat-trap 
pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 1990 I got my first 
relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C with Sante group) and 
decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd better get with the 
retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips and straps, graduated 
to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty quickly switched to the 
burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" 
road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and 
finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I mean the ones that came out for about 1 
season long long ago with the mtb mechanism).

A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes but 
after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the right 
position I gave up and

RE: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Bernard Duhon]

Cages & straps in the 70’s.  Turned into an occasional cyclists till early 
90’s.  When I returned, all the “serious” cyclist had Look’s.  I couldn’t go 
that far cause of the duckwalk. SPD it was.  The real bikers looked down on my 
inefficient touring shoes.  My commuter & errand bike had flat pedals, on & off 
with cages/straps.  Finally ditched cages 5 or 6 years ago.
I decided to go flat (Lambda, took em off unused wife’s bike) for a weeklong 
tour on my Waterford “Atlantis” build.  With spd’s the ball of your foot is on 
top of pedal spindle.  Flat, the arch of your foot is on top of the spindle.  
Less leg extension, so lower your saddle, there is more toe overlap and finally 
slightly different muscles are used.   I trained with the same set up on my 
road bike, when riding with the ‘‘fast” group.  Lo & behold just as efficient.  
   I won’t ditch my spd shoes & pedals. I got em I’ll use em.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of SallyG
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2023 4:12 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Subject: Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

As always, I'm learning lots from the conversation! Thank you, always a 
pleasure.

To add my non-technical two cents:

I used to ride with toe clips/leather straps. They have (probably) saved my 
life...and also caused me harm. Riding my second-hand Raleigh Gran Sport fast 
down a steep grade in the southern Alps (NZ), I hit a big pothole with my front 
tire. I was thrown off my seat and over the handlebars...held back by the one 
foot that remained in a toe clip. So thankful for that! On the other hand, one 
day back in Calif., starting off uphill, I ungracefully keeled over and 
fractured my elbow. Then had to drive a stick-shift car to the hospital for 
x-rays...

My (still new-ish) Clem is my first bike without pedal retention and I feel 
kind of like a kid again, just having fun. But I can't say I don't sometimes 
think of 531 Reynolds and the things that go with it!



On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 12:51:51 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote:
Nice Patrick !   Perfect body position, for me and he, apparently !
On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 3:29:08 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
You must be the forgotten heir of Alexi Grewal who notoriously rode a Clark 
Kent frame with hugely steep seat tube to get comfortable and powerful.

[https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/attach/a1778759b322e/image.png?part=0.1&view=1]

[https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/attach/a1778759b322e/image.png?part=0.2&view=1]

Patrick Moore, who feels the power and likes the bend to the hooks with saddle 
slammed all the way back on a 73* seat tube with highish offset DA post.

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:23 PM Garth 
mailto:gart...@gmail.com>> wrote:
No retention at all for me for that last 20 some years. Since my feet are 
positioned more midfoot and the pedals have good pins to grip Altra Lone 
Peaks(w/150mm cranks), I have no need for anything else. I have no pins on the 
other side and the even then my feet stay in place from feel. .Since moving my 
saddle all the way forward I find my pedaling has become even more 
effective/efficient. Torque + pedal speed = vroom sensation = FUN !  I think 
I'm going to get a zero setback post to try as I'm close to the limit on the 
Cobb saddle with a Ritchey 25mm setback post. As the foot is placed more 
midfoot, I feel much more "planted" to the cranks from my trunk/core. Now that 
I'm going more forward of the BB, I find an aero position more comfortable, and 
now feet are more angled forward/down than before. Picture the classic 
Roadrunner cartoon where at full speed and side angle, the RR's head is forward 
of the feet, the entire body is leaning forward, and the RR is just chillin' 
doing it. The more forward I am of the BB, I'm pushing more back with my entire 
body to the wheel/chainstays, rather than pushing down or forward with my body 
further back of the BB. It's also less strenuous on everything, go figure. So 
now I'm in complete rethink of frame design, I could use a much steeper seat 
tube angle, 73.5-74 ish. This isn't stuff anyone can teach, other than 
encouraging the exploration/creativity to find your way as to what works and 
what doesn't.
On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 1:34:13 PM UTC-5 Robert Tilley wrote:
I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination of foot 
retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was that they 
needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different in size from the 
shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking boots for example. I 
set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for most of the shoes I used 
with the Power Grips.

Robert Tilley
San Diego, CA


Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:

The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I rode 
that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki 

Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[SallyG]

As always, I'm learning lots from the conversation! Thank you, always a 
pleasure.

To add my non-technical two cents:

I used to ride with toe clips/leather straps. They have (probably) saved my 
life...and also caused me harm. Riding my second-hand Raleigh Gran Sport 
fast down a steep grade in the southern Alps (NZ), I hit a big pothole with 
my front tire. I was thrown off my seat and over the handlebars...held back 
by the one foot that remained in a toe clip. So thankful for that! On the 
other hand, one day back in Calif., starting off uphill, I ungracefully 
keeled over and fractured my elbow. Then had to drive a stick-shift car to 
the hospital for x-rays...

My (still new-ish) Clem is my first bike without pedal retention and I feel 
kind of like a kid again, just having fun. But I can't say I don't 
sometimes think of 531 Reynolds and the things that go with it!



On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 12:51:51 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote:

> Nice Patrick !   Perfect body position, for me and he, apparently ! 
>
> On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 3:29:08 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> You must be the forgotten heir of Alexi Grewal who notoriously rode a 
>> Clark Kent frame with hugely steep seat tube to get comfortable and 
>> powerful.
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who feels the power and likes the bend to the hooks with 
>> saddle slammed all the way back on a 73* seat tube with highish offset DA 
>> post.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:23 PM Garth  wrote:
>>
>>> No retention at all for me for that last 20 some years. Since my feet 
>>> are positioned more midfoot and the pedals have good pins to grip Altra 
>>> Lone Peaks(w/150mm cranks), I have no need for anything else. I have no 
>>> pins on the other side and the even then my feet stay in place from feel. 
>>> .Since moving my saddle all the way forward I find my pedaling has become 
>>> even more effective/efficient. Torque + pedal speed = vroom sensation = FUN 
>>> !  I think I'm going to get a zero setback post to try as I'm close to the 
>>> limit on the Cobb saddle with a Ritchey 25mm setback post. As the foot is 
>>> placed more midfoot, I feel much more "planted" to the cranks from my 
>>> trunk/core. Now that I'm going more forward of the BB, I find an aero 
>>> position more comfortable, and now feet are more angled forward/down than 
>>> before. Picture the classic Roadrunner cartoon where at full speed and side 
>>> angle, the RR's head is forward of the feet, the entire body is leaning 
>>> forward, and the RR is just chillin' doing it. The more forward I am of the 
>>> BB, I'm pushing more back with my entire body to the wheel/chainstays, 
>>> rather than pushing down or forward with my body further back of the BB. 
>>> It's also less strenuous on everything, go figure. So now I'm in complete 
>>> rethink of frame design, I could use a much steeper seat tube angle, 
>>> 73.5-74 ish. This isn't stuff anyone can teach, other than encouraging the 
>>> exploration/creativity to find your way as to what works and what doesn't. 
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 1:34:13 PM UTC-5 Robert Tilley wrote:
>>>
 I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination 
 of foot retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was 
 that they needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different 
 in 
 size from the shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking 
 boots for example. I set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for 
 most of the shoes I used with the Power Grips.

 Robert Tilley
 San Diego, CA


 Sent from my iPhone

 On Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:

 

 The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I 
 rode that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki 
 Prestige) to that I started reading cycling magazines and learned that the 
 flat pedals I had been using since I started riding weren’t the way to go. 
 So I bought some Time pedals and cleats for the road bike.  The Schwinn 
 got 
 some clips and straps for retention.

 At some point I ditched the Time for SPD’s and used those on all bikes 
 for years. When I got my Riv custom in 2000 I went in on the retro thing 
 and put clips and straps on it but that didn’t last long and the Riv soon 
 got SPD’s as well.

 Quite a few years back I picked up a Brompton and found the flat, no 
 retention pedals on it didn’t feel weird and I did not miss having 
 retention. Since then I have most of my bikes set up with flat pedals with 
 pins. I still have my “go fast” bike set up with SPD’s and I do put those 
 on my off-road bike when I plan to do more technical trails. But most 
 off-road rides I just used flats.  

 I really like not having to change into different shoes w

Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Garth]

Nice Patrick !   Perfect body position, for me and he, apparently ! 

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 3:29:08 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> You must be the forgotten heir of Alexi Grewal who notoriously rode a 
> Clark Kent frame with hugely steep seat tube to get comfortable and 
> powerful.
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Patrick Moore, who feels the power and likes the bend to the hooks with 
> saddle slammed all the way back on a 73* seat tube with highish offset DA 
> post.
>
> On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:23 PM Garth  wrote:
>
>> No retention at all for me for that last 20 some years. Since my feet are 
>> positioned more midfoot and the pedals have good pins to grip Altra Lone 
>> Peaks(w/150mm cranks), I have no need for anything else. I have no pins on 
>> the other side and the even then my feet stay in place from feel. .Since 
>> moving my saddle all the way forward I find my pedaling has become even 
>> more effective/efficient. Torque + pedal speed = vroom sensation = FUN !  I 
>> think I'm going to get a zero setback post to try as I'm close to the limit 
>> on the Cobb saddle with a Ritchey 25mm setback post. As the foot is placed 
>> more midfoot, I feel much more "planted" to the cranks from my trunk/core. 
>> Now that I'm going more forward of the BB, I find an aero position more 
>> comfortable, and now feet are more angled forward/down than before. Picture 
>> the classic Roadrunner cartoon where at full speed and side angle, the RR's 
>> head is forward of the feet, the entire body is leaning forward, and the RR 
>> is just chillin' doing it. The more forward I am of the BB, I'm pushing 
>> more back with my entire body to the wheel/chainstays, rather than pushing 
>> down or forward with my body further back of the BB. It's also less 
>> strenuous on everything, go figure. So now I'm in complete rethink of frame 
>> design, I could use a much steeper seat tube angle, 73.5-74 ish. This isn't 
>> stuff anyone can teach, other than encouraging the exploration/creativity 
>> to find your way as to what works and what doesn't. 
>>
>> On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 1:34:13 PM UTC-5 Robert Tilley wrote:
>>
>>> I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination 
>>> of foot retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was 
>>> that they needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different in 
>>> size from the shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking 
>>> boots for example. I set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for 
>>> most of the shoes I used with the Power Grips.
>>>
>>> Robert Tilley
>>> San Diego, CA
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I 
>>> rode that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki 
>>> Prestige) to that I started reading cycling magazines and learned that the 
>>> flat pedals I had been using since I started riding weren’t the way to go. 
>>> So I bought some Time pedals and cleats for the road bike.  The Schwinn got 
>>> some clips and straps for retention.
>>>
>>> At some point I ditched the Time for SPD’s and used those on all bikes 
>>> for years. When I got my Riv custom in 2000 I went in on the retro thing 
>>> and put clips and straps on it but that didn’t last long and the Riv soon 
>>> got SPD’s as well.
>>>
>>> Quite a few years back I picked up a Brompton and found the flat, no 
>>> retention pedals on it didn’t feel weird and I did not miss having 
>>> retention. Since then I have most of my bikes set up with flat pedals with 
>>> pins. I still have my “go fast” bike set up with SPD’s and I do put those 
>>> on my off-road bike when I plan to do more technical trails. But most 
>>> off-road rides I just used flats.  
>>>
>>> I really like not having to change into different shoes when I ride. 
>>> Most of my riding is commuting/errands so I am not getting “kitted up” for 
>>> those rides. Since I’m not changing into a riding outfit it makes sense to 
>>> not have to change shoes as well.
>>>
>>> Robert Tilley
>>> San Diego, CA
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 24, 2023, at 5:44 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
>>> out-of-context judgment.
>>>
>>> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
>>> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
>>> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>>>
>>> I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with 
>>> thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on 
>>> un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 
>>> 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C 
>>> with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd 
>>> better

Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Patrick Moore]

Now that's worth learning; good information.

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM Ted Durant  wrote:

> ...
> Binding-less pedals also have to be matched with compatible shoes. I've
> experienced a similar issue as Patrick, where the pins on a pedal don't
> line up nicely with the bottom of a shoe, and spent the whole ride trying
> to find a comfortable foot placement.
>

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 2:02:38 PM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:

If I ever build a dedicated shopping bike I think I'll try no-retention 
again, but this time without pinned pedals; it was the pins that annoyed me 
when I tried platforms a couple of years ago because they were always 
holding the shoe (and I bought a nice pair of platform cycling shoes) in 
the wrong places and made it hard to shift the soles to the right places. 


That's one of the reasons I love the Clem pedals ... plastic bodies, no 
pins, but the grip with the sneakers I wear is quite good.

One of the things I took away from the Pino setup was the importance of 
matching shoes and pedals together. Even with cleat and binding systems, 
some shoes work better than others with a given system. Crank Brothers got 
pretty smart about that, creating a system of shims and spacers to optimize 
the fit. Binding-less pedals also have to be matched with compatible shoes. 
I've experienced a similar issue as Patrick, where the pins on a pedal 
don't line up nicely with the bottom of a shoe, and spent the whole ride 
trying to find a comfortable foot placement.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA 

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Garth]

No retention at all for me for that last 20 some years. Since my feet are 
positioned more midfoot and the pedals have good pins to grip Altra Lone 
Peaks(w/150mm cranks), I have no need for anything else. I have no pins on 
the other side and the even then my feet stay in place from feel. .Since 
moving my saddle all the way forward I find my pedaling has become even 
more effective/efficient. Torque + pedal speed = vroom sensation = FUN !  I 
think I'm going to get a zero setback post to try as I'm close to the limit 
on the Cobb saddle with a Ritchey 25mm setback post. As the foot is placed 
more midfoot, I feel much more "planted" to the cranks from my trunk/core. 
Now that I'm going more forward of the BB, I find an aero position more 
comfortable, and now feet are more angled forward/down than before. Picture 
the classic Roadrunner cartoon where at full speed and side angle, the RR's 
head is forward of the feet, the entire body is leaning forward, and the RR 
is just chillin' doing it. The more forward I am of the BB, I'm pushing 
more back with my entire body to the wheel/chainstays, rather than pushing 
down or forward with my body further back of the BB. It's also less 
strenuous on everything, go figure. So now I'm in complete rethink of frame 
design, I could use a much steeper seat tube angle, 73.5-74 ish. This isn't 
stuff anyone can teach, other than encouraging the exploration/creativity 
to find your way as to what works and what doesn't. 

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 1:34:13 PM UTC-5 Robert Tilley wrote:

> I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination of 
> foot retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was that 
> they needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different in size 
> from the shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking boots 
> for example. I set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for most of 
> the shoes I used with the Power Grips.
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 
>
> The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I 
> rode that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki 
> Prestige) to that I started reading cycling magazines and learned that the 
> flat pedals I had been using since I started riding weren’t the way to go. 
> So I bought some Time pedals and cleats for the road bike.  The Schwinn got 
> some clips and straps for retention.
>
> At some point I ditched the Time for SPD’s and used those on all bikes for 
> years. When I got my Riv custom in 2000 I went in on the retro thing and 
> put clips and straps on it but that didn’t last long and the Riv soon got 
> SPD’s as well.
>
> Quite a few years back I picked up a Brompton and found the flat, no 
> retention pedals on it didn’t feel weird and I did not miss having 
> retention. Since then I have most of my bikes set up with flat pedals with 
> pins. I still have my “go fast” bike set up with SPD’s and I do put those 
> on my off-road bike when I plan to do more technical trails. But most 
> off-road rides I just used flats.  
>
> I really like not having to change into different shoes when I ride. Most 
> of my riding is commuting/errands so I am not getting “kitted up” for those 
> rides. Since I’m not changing into a riding outfit it makes sense to not 
> have to change shoes as well.
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 24, 2023, at 5:44 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> 
> First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
> out-of-context judgment.
>
> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>
> I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with 
> thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on 
> un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 
> 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C 
> with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd 
> better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips 
> and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty 
> quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson 
> Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and 
> Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I 
> mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb 
> mechanism). 
>
> A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes 
> but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the 
> right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my 
> bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + c

Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Jason Fuller]

I used SPD's when I raced XC, but never enjoyed them.  I ride reasonably 
long distances (50 to 130 miles) and while I'm sure I'm losing a little bit 
of oomph on the climbs, my knees are much happier when I can move my foot 
around at will.  I prefer flats for riding on slippery or sketchy stuff, 
which I tend to do just about every ride, and really appreciate being able 
to wear any shoe - most of my riding pals are struggling to keep their toes 
warm over winter, limited by their cycling shoes, though there are some 
good winter shoes out there these days. 

I've thought about giving them a try again, but I've realized there's just 
no reason to for me - I don't care about the marginal gains and I would 
feel limited with how I like to ride 

On Monday 25 December 2023 at 12:08:57 UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Thinking out loud: if I ever get a replacement frame for the Monocog, 
> which I use for most of time when I run the dog, I may well try Urbans or 
> the wonderful value-for-money GR-1s, plus MKS X-deep clips and loose straps 
> (with toe clip buttons and strap pads, of course, just for style). I like 
> the GR-1s so much that some years ago I tried Urbans and then went back to 
> the GR-1s because I liked their flip-tab better.
>
> To make the inevitably rough GR-1s buttery (or at least relatively) 
> smooth: upend in vise, dribble in plenty of Phil Tenacious oil, leave for 
> 24 hours, wipe down, install, and ride them a lot. I *think* I've 
> actually overhauled the wee bearings but at $35 on Amazon there's almost no 
> point, and they'll outlast my use.
>
> On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:02 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
>> If I ever build a dedicated shopping bike I think I'll try no-retention 
>> again, but this time without pinned pedals; it was the pins that annoyed me 
>> when I tried platforms a couple of years ago because they were always 
>> holding the shoe (and I bought a nice pair of platform cycling shoes) in 
>> the wrong places and made it hard to shift the soles to the right places. 
>> But something like MKS Urbans, perhaps with half clips, sounds very likely.
>>
>> I tend to mash gears, which means I often will pull back or up -- briefly 
>> -- on inclines or when turning into winds; retention has obvious advantages 
>> here and, in fact, the reason I went back to SPDs after a couple of years 
>> commuting with clips and straps but no cleats on my rubber soled 
>> Timberlands and Basses and so on was that I was always pulling the shoes 
>> out of the straps or, if the straps were tight, pulling my feet out of the 
>> shoes. 
>>
>> But I agree, for convenience there's nothing like a comfortable, sturdy 
>> street shoe with sufficiently stiff or thick sole and sufficiently wide and 
>> flat pedal for all-round convenience. I do find that SPDs, even on my road 
>> bike, allow me the next best thing, since I can walk pretty easily in my 
>> several pairs of mtb SPD shoes. Since I follow the Chinese custom 
>> (inherited from Chin/Am ex-wife) of not wearing shoes indoors (ick!!) it's 
>> almost as easy to slip into SPDs as into street shoes when I go out for a 
>> ride.
>>
>>  -- Speaking of which, recall the time 3-4 years ago when I had to hike 
>> home ~5 miles in my SPD shoes after a sharp stick poked a big hole in y 
>> rear tubless tire (and all my plugs just disappeared into the cavity; later 
>> got some *big* plugs). I made it, but man, decent civvie shoes would 
>> have been more comfortable.
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Patrick Moore]

Thinking out loud: if I ever get a replacement frame for the Monocog, which
I use for most of time when I run the dog, I may well try Urbans or the
wonderful value-for-money GR-1s, plus MKS X-deep clips and loose straps
(with toe clip buttons and strap pads, of course, just for style). I like
the GR-1s so much that some years ago I tried Urbans and then went back to
the GR-1s because I liked their flip-tab better.

To make the inevitably rough GR-1s buttery (or at least relatively) smooth:
upend in vise, dribble in plenty of Phil Tenacious oil, leave for 24 hours,
wipe down, install, and ride them a lot. I *think* I've actually overhauled
the wee bearings but at $35 on Amazon there's almost no point, and they'll
outlast my use.

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 1:02 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> If I ever build a dedicated shopping bike I think I'll try no-retention
> again, but this time without pinned pedals; it was the pins that annoyed me
> when I tried platforms a couple of years ago because they were always
> holding the shoe (and I bought a nice pair of platform cycling shoes) in
> the wrong places and made it hard to shift the soles to the right places.
> But something like MKS Urbans, perhaps with half clips, sounds very likely.
>
> I tend to mash gears, which means I often will pull back or up -- briefly
> -- on inclines or when turning into winds; retention has obvious advantages
> here and, in fact, the reason I went back to SPDs after a couple of years
> commuting with clips and straps but no cleats on my rubber soled
> Timberlands and Basses and so on was that I was always pulling the shoes
> out of the straps or, if the straps were tight, pulling my feet out of the
> shoes.
>
> But I agree, for convenience there's nothing like a comfortable, sturdy
> street shoe with sufficiently stiff or thick sole and sufficiently wide and
> flat pedal for all-round convenience. I do find that SPDs, even on my road
> bike, allow me the next best thing, since I can walk pretty easily in my
> several pairs of mtb SPD shoes. Since I follow the Chinese custom
> (inherited from Chin/Am ex-wife) of not wearing shoes indoors (ick!!) it's
> almost as easy to slip into SPDs as into street shoes when I go out for a
> ride.
>
>  -- Speaking of which, recall the time 3-4 years ago when I had to hike
> home ~5 miles in my SPD shoes after a sharp stick poked a big hole in y
> rear tubless tire (and all my plugs just disappeared into the cavity; later
> got some *big* plugs). I made it, but man, decent civvie shoes would have
> been more comfortable.
>


-- 

Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
---

Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing
services

---

*When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*

*But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*

*I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Patrick Moore]

If I ever build a dedicated shopping bike I think I'll try no-retention
again, but this time without pinned pedals; it was the pins that annoyed me
when I tried platforms a couple of years ago because they were always
holding the shoe (and I bought a nice pair of platform cycling shoes) in
the wrong places and made it hard to shift the soles to the right places.
But something like MKS Urbans, perhaps with half clips, sounds very likely.

I tend to mash gears, which means I often will pull back or up -- briefly
-- on inclines or when turning into winds; retention has obvious advantages
here and, in fact, the reason I went back to SPDs after a couple of years
commuting with clips and straps but no cleats on my rubber soled
Timberlands and Basses and so on was that I was always pulling the shoes
out of the straps or, if the straps were tight, pulling my feet out of the
shoes.

But I agree, for convenience there's nothing like a comfortable, sturdy
street shoe with sufficiently stiff or thick sole and sufficiently wide and
flat pedal for all-round convenience. I do find that SPDs, even on my road
bike, allow me the next best thing, since I can walk pretty easily in my
several pairs of mtb SPD shoes. Since I follow the Chinese custom
(inherited from Chin/Am ex-wife) of not wearing shoes indoors (ick!!) it's
almost as easy to slip into SPDs as into street shoes when I go out for a
ride.

 -- Speaking of which, recall the time 3-4 years ago when I had to hike
home ~5 miles in my SPD shoes after a sharp stick poked a big hole in y
rear tubless tire (and all my plugs just disappeared into the cavity; later
got some *big* plugs). I made it, but man, decent civvie shoes would have
been more comfortable.

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Re: [RBW] Riv's new handlebar bag

[Richard Rose]

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all!Finally got a ride in on my Clem with the EZPZ mounted & with a light load. Admittedly I have nothing to compare it too but it’s really nice. It does not budge. Solid as a rock & easy to use. It’s really suited to the Clem with the 135 FacePlater & Bosco. Lots of room for it to move (it does not) without coming into contact with the head tube or anything else. No issues with cables either.Fit to the Gus with 35mm stem the bag can come into contact with the head tube so I am installing a Swood Twisted T to hold the bag steady in front of the head tube. In short, I highly recommend the bag. First batch sold out so perhaps others will chime in? Will tells me the next batch will be “Olive”.Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 22, 2023, at 10:46 PM, Nick Payne  wrote:On Friday 22 December 2023 at 7:02:26 am UTC+11 Chris Halasz wrote:Does the Routeworks bag rattle?Not since I cut a couple of small rectangles of adhesive-backed foam tape about 2mm thick  and positioned them each side of the catch of the lid, to prevent any play between the lid and catch: You also need to make sure that the bolt and nylock nut that adjust the tightness of the cam that locks the bag to the mount is set correctly.Nick Payne



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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[rltilley]

I just remembered I also used Power Grips which was a nice combination of foot retention and normal shoes. The one downside to power grips was that they needed to be adjusted for shoes that were materially different in size from the shoes used to set up the straps. Chuck Taylor’s vs hiking boots for example. I set mine up a bit loose for Chuck’s which worked for most of the shoes I used with the Power Grips.Robert TilleySan Diego, CASent from my iPhoneOn Dec 24, 2023, at 9:08 PM, rltil...@gmail.com wrote:The first bike I bought for myself was a mid 80’s Schwinn Sierra and I rode that to commute to work and school. Once I added a road bike (Nishiki Prestige) to that I started reading cycling magazines and learned that the flat pedals I had been using since I started riding weren’t the way to go. So I bought some Time pedals and cleats for the road bike.  The Schwinn got some clips and straps for retention.At some point I ditched the Time for SPD’s and used those on all bikes for years. When I got my Riv custom in 2000 I went in on the retro thing and put clips and straps on it but that didn’t last long and the Riv soon got SPD’s as well.Quite a few years back I picked up a Brompton and found the flat, no retention pedals on it didn’t feel weird and I did not miss having retention. Since then I have most of my bikes set up with flat pedals with pins. I still have my “go fast” bike set up with SPD’s and I do put those on my off-road bike when I plan to do more technical trails. But most off-road rides I just used flats.  I really like not having to change into different shoes when I ride. Most of my riding is commuting/errands so I am not getting “kitted up” for those rides. Since I’m not changing into a riding outfit it makes sense to not have to change shoes as well.Robert TilleySan Diego, CASent from my iPhoneOn Dec 24, 2023, at 5:44 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's out-of-context judgment.But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use clipless systems -- and what kind.I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb mechanism). A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + clips and straps + almost-as-new wood-soled Duegis with cleats that I'd like to try -- I found slotted cleats with semi-tight straps easier with a fixed drivetrain than Look Keos -- except that SPDs are so perfect.So, I've round that having gotten used to retention I find it very hard to give it up. I daresay that this habituation is stronger since so much of my riding is on fixed drivetrains, but I'd still want at least clips and loose-ish straps with rubber soles for any freewheel drivetrain.But again, SPDs just feel so perfect that I will probably just stay with them.Best wishes to all for the Christmas season.Patrick Moore, finishing up a late resume on Xmas eve in ABQ, NM.-- Patrick MooreAlburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum---Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services---When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.



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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[Tim Bantham]

I am currently using both clip in and flat pedals. I still do roadie group 
rides with my fellow MAMILs on my Serotta. I use Speedplay pedals for that. 
I also have a modern mountain bike with SPDs . On my Sam Hillborne I ride 
flat pedals. If I had my druthers I'd ride flat pedals most of the time. I 
love riding in sandals because of the chill vibe that it promotes. When I'm 
on my Hillborne I'm mostly riding alone or on bike paths with 
friends/family. 

At the start of last season I developed pain in one of my knees. I later 
determined that it was due to my cleat placement on my cycling shoe.  I had 
purchased new cleats during the winter months and carelessly mounted them 
on my shoes without taking note of the exact placement of the previous 
cleats. After developing the knee pain I ended up going to my LBS and 
having the bike fitter take a look at my pedal stroke. Sure enough my cleat 
needed to be moved inboard on the shoe to solve the problem. All of that to 
say I wonder if clipping in is worth it when you consider how sensitive my 
knees are to precise cleat placement. At this point I'm still using both. 

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 7:44:43 PM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>
>
> I started riding bikes in 1968. In 1978 I got my first pair of Detto 
> Pietro shoes. I've been through cleats, Avocets, SPD, MKS Mapstage, Time 
> ATAC, Egg Beater, and now I almost exclusively ride in sneakers (Lems) on 
> flat pedals (mostly Riv's Clem pedals). The most efficient "directly 
> attached to the rear wheel" system I ever felt was a pair of Delrin cleats 
> that Pino Morroni machined for Grant. They snapped perfectly into Campy NR 
> pedals, and you didn't even need a strap unless you really pulled straight 
> up on them. All the systems that "float" were absolutely terrible for me. 
> My heels would rotate to the float limits, creating a large amount of 
> rotational strain on my knees. I found Egg Beaters with zero float cleats 
> to be the best for my needs, and I still have them on my Riv Road, which is 
> set up for fast group riding.  Also, like Wesley, my wife and I find 
> cleated pedals to be very important on the tandem - no more feet flying off 
> the pedals at inopportune moments. I liked having cleated pedals and shoes 
> for the short downtown part of my commute, where I would often need to 
> accelerate hard to keep up with the traffic flow.  Since I retired I 
> haven't had a single time when I've been clipless (meaning no binding 
> system at all!) that I have wished for something holding my feet to the 
> pedals. On the contrary, I am finding that my feet, ankles, knees, and hips 
> are much, much happier, especially on long rides. I love being able to 
> shift my feet forward and back, sometimes on the ball, sometimes the arch, 
> depending on the terrain and the level of effort.
>
> My father-in-law started doing some more recreational biking in his 
> retirement. The shop that sold him a new bike insisted he needed toe clips 
> and straps. At an intersection with some sand on the pavement (April in 
> Wisconsin!) he used his front brake and went down. In trying to pull his 
> foot from the pedal he very badly tore up the ligaments in his knee. 
> Needless to say, when he got back on the bike the next year, I had tossed 
> the clips and straps.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee WI USA
>

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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[George Schick]

Seems like a lot of replies in this discussion center around where one does 
most of his/her riding.  If it's mostly start/stop urban streets, then yes 
platform pedals would be safer.  On lightly traveled country roads and bike 
paths, though, clipless would be workable and probably desirable, leg 
joints dependent (unless there are lots of street crossings).

My history goes back to the mid-to-late 60's/early 70's during the 
so-called "bike boom" when the go-to book for everyone was Sloane's "The 
Complete Book of Bicycling."  Sloane heavily endorsed pedal retention - toe 
clips, straps, and shoe cleats back then (because clipless pedals hadn't 
been invented yet) - for serious cycling.  I got hooked on it and moved 
forward with that philosophy in mind.  Younger riders, especially 
Riv-influenced ones, have adopted a different pedaling experience.

One minor bump in the road in recent decades was this "fixie" movement 
adopted mostly by Millennials where a large number of those types would 
have been in big trouble using pedal retention systems.  I've noticed that 
that fad came and went rather quickly.

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-6 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 7:44:43 PM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>
>
> I started riding bikes in 1968. In 1978 I got my first pair of Detto 
> Pietro shoes. I've been through cleats, Avocets, SPD, MKS Mapstage, Time 
> ATAC, Egg Beater, and now I almost exclusively ride in sneakers (Lems) on 
> flat pedals (mostly Riv's Clem pedals). The most efficient "directly 
> attached to the rear wheel" system I ever felt was a pair of Delrin cleats 
> that Pino Morroni machined for Grant. They snapped perfectly into Campy NR 
> pedals, and you didn't even need a strap unless you really pulled straight 
> up on them. All the systems that "float" were absolutely terrible for me. 
> My heels would rotate to the float limits, creating a large amount of 
> rotational strain on my knees. I found Egg Beaters with zero float cleats 
> to be the best for my needs, and I still have them on my Riv Road, which is 
> set up for fast group riding.  Also, like Wesley, my wife and I find 
> cleated pedals to be very important on the tandem - no more feet flying off 
> the pedals at inopportune moments. I liked having cleated pedals and shoes 
> for the short downtown part of my commute, where I would often need to 
> accelerate hard to keep up with the traffic flow.  Since I retired I 
> haven't had a single time when I've been clipless (meaning no binding 
> system at all!) that I have wished for something holding my feet to the 
> pedals. On the contrary, I am finding that my feet, ankles, knees, and hips 
> are much, much happier, especially on long rides. I love being able to 
> shift my feet forward and back, sometimes on the ball, sometimes the arch, 
> depending on the terrain and the level of effort.
>
> My father-in-law started doing some more recreational biking in his 
> retirement. The shop that sold him a new bike insisted he needed toe clips 
> and straps. At an intersection with some sand on the pavement (April in 
> Wisconsin!) he used his front brake and went down. In trying to pull his 
> foot from the pedal he very badly tore up the ligaments in his knee. 
> Needless to say, when he got back on the bike the next year, I had tossed 
> the clips and straps.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee WI USA
>

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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 7:44:43 PM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:

But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
clipless systems -- and what kind.


I started riding bikes in 1968. In 1978 I got my first pair of Detto Pietro 
shoes. I've been through cleats, Avocets, SPD, MKS Mapstage, Time ATAC, Egg 
Beater, and now I almost exclusively ride in sneakers (Lems) on flat pedals 
(mostly Riv's Clem pedals). The most efficient "directly attached to the 
rear wheel" system I ever felt was a pair of Delrin cleats that Pino 
Morroni machined for Grant. They snapped perfectly into Campy NR pedals, 
and you didn't even need a strap unless you really pulled straight up on 
them. All the systems that "float" were absolutely terrible for me. My 
heels would rotate to the float limits, creating a large amount of 
rotational strain on my knees. I found Egg Beaters with zero float cleats 
to be the best for my needs, and I still have them on my Riv Road, which is 
set up for fast group riding.  Also, like Wesley, my wife and I find 
cleated pedals to be very important on the tandem - no more feet flying off 
the pedals at inopportune moments. I liked having cleated pedals and shoes 
for the short downtown part of my commute, where I would often need to 
accelerate hard to keep up with the traffic flow.  Since I retired I 
haven't had a single time when I've been clipless (meaning no binding 
system at all!) that I have wished for something holding my feet to the 
pedals. On the contrary, I am finding that my feet, ankles, knees, and hips 
are much, much happier, especially on long rides. I love being able to 
shift my feet forward and back, sometimes on the ball, sometimes the arch, 
depending on the terrain and the level of effort.

My father-in-law started doing some more recreational biking in his 
retirement. The shop that sold him a new bike insisted he needed toe clips 
and straps. At an intersection with some sand on the pavement (April in 
Wisconsin!) he used his front brake and went down. In trying to pull his 
foot from the pedal he very badly tore up the ligaments in his knee. 
Needless to say, when he got back on the bike the next year, I had tossed 
the clips and straps.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[Richard Rose]

My journey is very simple to JS’s but without the mishaps. ‘70’s toe clips & straps (PX10) all the way to clipless. Rode clipless (Speedplay road, mostly eggbeater’s MTB) for years / decades without incident. Decided to give large platforms a try maybe 10 years ago - do not remember why - and have never looked back. I was riding MTB primarily & got bored I think with clipless. I found there to be a learning curve with platforms on rowdy trails & enjoyed the challenge. I cannot imagine ever clipping in again.Sent from my iPhoneOn Dec 25, 2023, at 10:30 AM, J S  wrote:I rode with clips and straps for most of my riding years (started I believe with them in the mid ‘70’s on my first 10 speed. I tried clipless in the ‘90’s (frogs) but took a bad spill when I was unable to disengage hurting my leg, and back to clips and straps. After my second back surgery and riding again I took all the clips and straps off of my bikes adding platform pedals. It was a matter of safety so I could put a leg out if needed. I never missed the clips and straps. On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 8:44:43 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's out-of-context judgment.But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use clipless systems -- and what kind.I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb mechanism). A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + clips and straps + almost-as-new wood-soled Duegis with cleats that I'd like to try -- I found slotted cleats with semi-tight straps easier with a fixed drivetrain than Look Keos -- except that SPDs are so perfect.So, I've round that having gotten used to retention I find it very hard to give it up. I daresay that this habituation is stronger since so much of my riding is on fixed drivetrains, but I'd still want at least clips and loose-ish straps with rubber soles for any freewheel drivetrain.But again, SPDs just feel so perfect that I will probably just stay with them.Best wishes to all for the Christmas season.Patrick Moore, finishing up a late resume on Xmas eve in ABQ, NM.-- Patrick MooreAlburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum---Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services---When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.




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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

['Tom M' via RBW Owners Bunch]

White Industries urban pedals (or MKS equivalents) and half-clips on my 
bikes, including the tandem. Tried Look pedals for a year and, while I like 
the way they felt, I never got comfortable clipping in and clipping out for 
traffic lights etc. Went to half-clips and never regretted it. I like the 
retention half-clips give, as well as the ability to quickly put a foot 
down when needed. And I'm slow enough that whatever efficiency I lose 
compared with clipless probably doesn't matter.
Tom in Alexandria, VA

On Monday, December 25, 2023 at 10:30:08 AM UTC-5 jrst...@gmail.com wrote:

> I rode with clips and straps for most of my riding years (started I 
> believe with them in the mid ‘70’s on my first 10 speed. I tried clipless 
> in the ‘90’s (frogs) but took a bad spill when I was unable to disengage 
> hurting my leg, and back to clips and straps. After my second back surgery 
> and riding again I took all the clips and straps off of my bikes adding 
> platform pedals. It was a matter of safety so I could put a leg out if 
> needed. I never missed the clips and straps. 
>
> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 8:44:43 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
>> out-of-context judgment.
>>
>> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
>> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
>> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>>
>> I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with 
>> thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on 
>> un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 
>> 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C 
>> with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd 
>> better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips 
>> and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty 
>> quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson 
>> Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and 
>> Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I 
>> mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb 
>> mechanism). 
>>
>> A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention 
>> shoes but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find 
>> the right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my 
>> bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + clips and straps + 
>> almost-as-new wood-soled Duegis with cleats that I'd like to try -- I found 
>> slotted cleats with semi-tight straps easier with a fixed drivetrain than 
>> Look Keos -- except that SPDs are so perfect.
>>
>> So, I've round that having gotten used to retention I find it very hard 
>> to give it up. I daresay that this habituation is stronger since so much of 
>> my riding is on fixed drivetrains, but I'd still want at least clips and 
>> loose-ish straps with rubber soles for any freewheel drivetrain.
>>
>> But again, SPDs just feel so perfect that I will probably just stay with 
>> them.
>>
>> Best wishes to all for the Christmas season.
>>
>> Patrick Moore, finishing up a late resume on Xmas eve in ABQ, NM.
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
>> services
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>>
>> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>>
>> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[J S]

I rode with clips and straps for most of my riding years (started I believe 
with them in the mid ‘70’s on my first 10 speed. I tried clipless in the 
‘90’s (frogs) but took a bad spill when I was unable to disengage hurting 
my leg, and back to clips and straps. After my second back surgery and 
riding again I took all the clips and straps off of my bikes adding 
platform pedals. It was a matter of safety so I could put a leg out if 
needed. I never missed the clips and straps. 

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 8:44:43 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
> out-of-context judgment.
>
> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>
> I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with 
> thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on 
> un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 
> 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C 
> with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd 
> better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips 
> and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty 
> quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson 
> Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and 
> Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I 
> mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb 
> mechanism). 
>
> A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes 
> but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the 
> right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my 
> bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + clips and straps + 
> almost-as-new wood-soled Duegis with cleats that I'd like to try -- I found 
> slotted cleats with semi-tight straps easier with a fixed drivetrain than 
> Look Keos -- except that SPDs are so perfect.
>
> So, I've round that having gotten used to retention I find it very hard to 
> give it up. I daresay that this habituation is stronger since so much of my 
> riding is on fixed drivetrains, but I'd still want at least clips and 
> loose-ish straps with rubber soles for any freewheel drivetrain.
>
> But again, SPDs just feel so perfect that I will probably just stay with 
> them.
>
> Best wishes to all for the Christmas season.
>
> Patrick Moore, finishing up a late resume on Xmas eve in ABQ, NM.
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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[RBW] Re: "Grant hates toe clips."

[Patch T]

I like it all - except toe clips :) 

After refusing to "clip in" for many years, I finally tried SPDs 5 or 6 
years ago and really enjoy the power transfer I perceive (actual or 
imagined, who cares? I like it) and a sense of connection or connectedness 
to the pedals, cranks, bike. 

I've learned that I prefer mountain bike style over road style SPDs for 
both my road and not-road bikes (using apparently discontinued? wide Lake 
MX1 lace-ups), as I enjoy walking with ease and a normal posture. 

I still use platform pedals, specifically MKS Lambdas on commuter and 
camping bikes, and use a variety of shoes and boots. I've not tried the 
more recent iterations on this now iconic Lambda pedal, mostly because they 
just last forever and I cannot yet justify a new purchase.

I have enough overlap on too many of my bikes to like toe clips/cages. I 
recall disliking how much my foot would bend behind the pedal with big 
efforts,  but I admit I never tried a rigid soled shoe with them.

Patch in NYC

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 8:44:43 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> First entry in new Blahg. And no, he doesn't; he reports someone's 
> out-of-context judgment.
>
> But I'm curious how many on this RBW list like and use retention and how 
> many don't; and of the former, how many use toe clips and how many use 
> clipless systems -- and what kind.
>
> I'll start: I rode fast for years and thousands of miles in Keds with 
> thick, soft soles and then rubber-soled lace ups of other sorts on 
> un-clipped rat-trap pedals (and even rubber block pedals) until in about 
> 1990 I got my first relatively expensive road bike (1989 Falcon, tout 531C 
> with Sante group) and decided largely because of bike mag content that I'd 
> better get with the retention program. I started with Bata Bikers and clips 
> and straps, graduated to clips and straps and slotted cleats, then pretty 
> quickly switched to the burgeoning varieties of clipless -- Sampson 
> Stratics, Grafton "Erector Set" road and mtb pedals, Speedplay X1s and 
> Frogs, Looks of various sorts, and finally SPDs, road and mtb (by "road" I 
> mean the ones that came out for about 1 season long long ago with the mtb 
> mechanism). 
>
> A couple of years ago I tried platforms with spikes and no-retention shoes 
> but after about a month of annoyance always shifting my foot to find the 
> right position I gave up and went back to SPDs. I've got SPDs on all my 
> bikes though I've got a very nice set of XC Pros + clips and straps + 
> almost-as-new wood-soled Duegis with cleats that I'd like to try -- I found 
> slotted cleats with semi-tight straps easier with a fixed drivetrain than 
> Look Keos -- except that SPDs are so perfect.
>
> So, I've round that having gotten used to retention I find it very hard to 
> give it up. I daresay that this habituation is stronger since so much of my 
> riding is on fixed drivetrains, but I'd still want at least clips and 
> loose-ish straps with rubber soles for any freewheel drivetrain.
>
> But again, SPDs just feel so perfect that I will probably just stay with 
> them.
>
> Best wishes to all for the Christmas season.
>
> Patrick Moore, finishing up a late resume on Xmas eve in ABQ, NM.
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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Re: [RBW] "Grant hates toe clips."

[Andy Beichler]

I haven't tried any foot retention in years.  It could be that clipless 
have improved over the years but I haven't tried them in at 15 years or 
longer.  I have, uh, interesting, knees and ankles.  I am missing half of 
the cartilage on my right knee and I am somewhat bow legged. I could never 
get comfortable on clipless and inevitably some part of my right leg would 
hurt no matter how I adjusted them.  When I first started riding, I used 
clips and straps and had no trouble with my legs but I have wide feet and I 
found that getting the strap tight enough to be useful resulted on my 
pinkie toe going numb after a while.   When I finally tried just using a 
flat pedal, I knew I would never go back.  It was way too comfortable.  

The only thing I miss about using SPD's is the feeling of being more 
connected to the bike.  Throwing it around on trails was easier. 


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