[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's interesting, because with t he 51, the front center stays the same, 
at 606. But with the next two sizes, the tt changes, but so does the front 
center. So in the 55cm,  Old tt, 59.7, new, 61.5. Old fc, 627.4., new 645. 
Similar changes with the geo of the 58 size, where the tt length changes 
the front center. The smallest and largest frame sizes have the same 
numbers in both new and old charts.

My first guess would be that there was a tweak with the two middle sizes, 
and that the 51 number was a misprint or mismeasure in one or the other of 
the charts. Or it could be that the numbers got confused on the old chart, 
or some other possibility. (I assume the tt measurements in both charts are 
"virtual" as there would be little immediately useful information imparted 
by publishing the actual measurements on a sloping design.)

Opinionated Opinion on Bicycle Geometry
I know lots of people who are infected enough with the bike bug to spend 
time on bicycle groups care a lot about these numbers. I find them 
interesting for the general picture--I prefer slacker seat tube angles 
(partially so I can run my leather saddles comfortably) and longer stays 
(originally for heel clearance). But when I bought my Clementine, I just 
plugged my SH number into the chart and went with that. 98% of human bodies 
fall within a range that a good bicycle designer can accommodate. 
Especially with a low volume producer and a designer with a public 
presence, after that I assume that, given the model bicycle and what it is 
for, the designer will have worked out the more esoteric numbers so that it 
all works. I know there are RBW members who have gotten bikes they did not 
feel comfortable on, and a number who never pull the trigger because, 
despite the PBH/SH chart they are certain they are between sizes, and that 
may be. I'm certainly not saying the numbers should not be available, and 
if there are mistakes they need to be fixed. But I have seen folks worried 
about millimeters in tt length. The human body is even more amazing than 
the bicycle, and can adapt to a decent range of set measurements, which of 
course can be tweaked with stems, seatposts, handlebars, etc. without any 
big compromise in comfort or performance. Just my two cents, I realize 
probably not exactly a consensus view on RBW! Enjoy your ride today!

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:34:21 PM UTC-5, Dave Johnston wrote:
>
> Did the top tube length change on the 2017 Appaloosa? In the old chart 
> (attached) the 51cm model says Top Tube of "56.5cm", the new chart shows 
> the Top tube as "57.5".  Or is this just a matter of effective vs actual?
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
> vs
>
>
> 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bob Lovejoy]

Not that I know for sure but I am guessing it is actual vs effective.  That
said, having two different numbers out there can be confusing unless you
are paying pretty close attention.  I was looking at the 58cm Appaloosa
figures the other night and noticed the 59.7 vs. 61.5 top tube lengths
given.  The 61.5 is noted as effective TT and I think that is right (though
an assumption).  I take it the 59.7 must be actual, but again...

I will throw in that Grant came in to another thread to talk about TT
lengths as applied to bikes designed for higher bar positioning and I do
get that.  I also really appreciate his input on these things!  That said,
the two numbers do bug me and might confuse someone making the big
decision(s).

In my wanderings that night, I re-read the Adventure Cycling review of the
Appaloosa, a 58cm, that they state as having a 59.7 "effective" TT.  Wrong
I am guessing?!  But they saw that number in a chart and assumed
effective.  Or, heck, maybe it is?
https://www.adventurecycling.org/adventure-cyclist/online-features/road-test-rivendell-joe-appaloosa/

Anyway, hopefully someone knows about any changes.  I will say, if I had
extra money and the fleet of bikes was not so crazy here, I would be
ordering an Appaloosa, and that's the truth.


On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Dave Johnston  wrote:

> Did the top tube length change on the 2017 Appaloosa? In the old chart
> (attached) the 51cm model says Top Tube of "56.5cm", the new chart shows
> the Top tube as "57.5".  Or is this just a matter of effective vs actual?
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
> vs
>
>
> 
>
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Dave Johnston]

Did the top tube length change on the 2017 Appaloosa? In the old chart 
(attached) the 51cm model says Top Tube of "56.5cm", the new chart shows 
the Top tube as "57.5".  Or is this just a matter of effective vs actual?


https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
vs



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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Les Lammers]

It's just nice to have choices. :-)

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bill Lindsay]

" So a new bike would be redundant."

you say that like it's a bad thing.  *N-PLUS-ONE!!!*

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 11:29:42 AM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> I'll second that.  Whenever I yearn for a new bike, I can never think of 
> anything that I do that my Atlantis can't handle (granted, my demands are 
> not great).  So a new bike would be redundant.
>
> BTW, Clayton, there's a list member in Canada who often posts photos from 
> his snow camping S240s on his Atlantis.  So snow shouldn't be an 
> impediment.  Easy for me to say; I've never lived with the stuff.
>
> dougP
>
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 4:55:48 AM UTC-8, RichS wrote:
>>
>> Clayton, bravo to you! And a passionate case for the venerable Atlantis.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 8:51 PM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> Reid, 
>>
>> BecauseIt's an Atlantis. If Grant quit selling the *perfect* bike, I 
>> would have such an anxiety attack, that it would be fatal. (He can't kill 
>> meHe has a conscience.)  He can't quit selling them either, it would be 
>> like an ice cream store that didn't serve Rocky Road, or a pretty girl who 
>> refuses to smile, or a springtime without flowers.  Rivendell just wouldn't 
>> be Rivendell without the Atlantis. I bought mine in '98-ish (Toyo) and have 
>> ridden it almost daily ever since (except downtime from surgeries and ALL 
>> THIS FRICKING SNOW) . It is just one of those things that happens I 
>> have had three back surgeries, (12 total) and my Atlantis is more 
>> comfortable than my old Easy Racer recumbent... True story... 
>>
>> Clayton (Bendite)
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>>>
>>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to 
>>> make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than 
>>> the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>>> Atlantis?
>>>
>>> Reid
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[dougP]

I'll second that.  Whenever I yearn for a new bike, I can never think of 
anything that I do that my Atlantis can't handle (granted, my demands are 
not great).  So a new bike would be redundant.

BTW, Clayton, there's a list member in Canada who often posts photos from 
his snow camping S240s on his Atlantis.  So snow shouldn't be an 
impediment.  Easy for me to say; I've never lived with the stuff.

dougP

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 4:55:48 AM UTC-8, RichS wrote:
>
> Clayton, bravo to you! And a passionate case for the venerable Atlantis.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 8:51 PM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> Reid, 
>
> BecauseIt's an Atlantis. If Grant quit selling the *perfect* bike, I 
> would have such an anxiety attack, that it would be fatal. (He can't kill 
> meHe has a conscience.)  He can't quit selling them either, it would be 
> like an ice cream store that didn't serve Rocky Road, or a pretty girl who 
> refuses to smile, or a springtime without flowers.  Rivendell just wouldn't 
> be Rivendell without the Atlantis. I bought mine in '98-ish (Toyo) and have 
> ridden it almost daily ever since (except downtime from surgeries and ALL 
> THIS FRICKING SNOW) . It is just one of those things that happens I 
> have had three back surgeries, (12 total) and my Atlantis is more 
> comfortable than my old Easy Racer recumbent... True story... 
>
> Clayton (Bendite)
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>>
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>> Atlantis?
>>
>> Reid
>>
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[R Shannon]

Clayton, bravo to you! And a passionate case for the venerable Atlantis.

Regards,
Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 8:51 PM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> Reid, 
> 
> BecauseIt's an Atlantis. If Grant quit selling the perfect bike, I would 
> have such an anxiety attack, that it would be fatal. (He can't kill meHe 
> has a conscience.)  He can't quit selling them either, it would be like an 
> ice cream store that didn't serve Rocky Road, or a pretty girl who refuses to 
> smile, or a springtime without flowers.  Rivendell just wouldn't be Rivendell 
> without the Atlantis. I bought mine in '98-ish (Toyo) and have ridden it 
> almost daily ever since (except downtime from surgeries and ALL THIS FRICKING 
> SNOW) . It is just one of those things that happens I have had three back 
> surgeries, (12 total) and my Atlantis is more comfortable than my old Easy 
> Racer recumbent... True story... 
> 
> Clayton (Bendite)
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>> Atlantis?
>> 
>> Reid
>> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Reid, 

BecauseIt's an Atlantis. If Grant quit selling the *perfect* bike, I 
would have such an anxiety attack, that it would be fatal. (He can't kill 
meHe has a conscience.)  He can't quit selling them either, it would be 
like an ice cream store that didn't serve Rocky Road, or a pretty girl who 
refuses to smile, or a springtime without flowers.  Rivendell just wouldn't 
be Rivendell without the Atlantis. I bought mine in '98-ish (Toyo) and have 
ridden it almost daily ever since (except downtime from surgeries and ALL 
THIS FRICKING SNOW) . It is just one of those things that happens I 
have had three back surgeries, (12 total) and my Atlantis is more 
comfortable than my old Easy Racer recumbent... True story... 

Clayton (Bendite)


On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Will]

You retain the Atlantis because it is the seminal design that put Rivendell 
on the map. If you ride one you will get this. It's a great bike. 
 
On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 10:07:18 PM UTC-6, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I agree. The fact that it is a tig-welded bicycle is about the 87th thing I 
think of when looking at my Clementine. Which means I've never really 
thought of it as such.

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 2:30:50 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> ...all the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better 
> than many of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 
> road frame from Riv will look better than most on the road.
>
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Ray Varella]

Patrick,
 I just sent the PDF that Grant posted. 
Check your email and see if you are able to open it. 

Ray
Vallejo CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Tim Gavin]

I'm still curious how the ball-and-socket seat lug will be finished.  Will
the ball be brazed into the socket?  Seems legit.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Bill: where is all this info and display about the Roadini? I did too
> look, and I still can't find it.
>
> How does the Roadini compare with the Roadeo:
>
> Tubing?
> Geometry?
>
> At just more than 1/3 of the Roadeo, it won't look as nice, but then all
> the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better than many
> of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 road frame
> from Riv will look better than most on the road.
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
>> The Roadini frame and fork for $800.  That's an incredibly good price.
>> And that new ball and socket seat lug!  Gotta have it.
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On S
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick Moore inquired about the brochure.  He doesn't (can't?) view this 
google group on a web browser, so he doesn't have this entire thread 
conveniently laid out before him.  

Grant attached a pdf brochure to his post about 12 hours ago (Lob knows why 
he was up so late).  It had no geometry chart, but it did have a list of 
nominal sizes and the PBH ranges for each.  It says nothing specific about 
tubing, except that it's heavier than Roadeo tubing.  The brochure invites 
us to email grant to register interest.  I'm sure he'll send you a copy of 
the pdf brochure if you are unable to see it as a determined email-only 
viewer.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 11:30:50 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Bill: where is all this info and display about the Roadini? I did too 
> look, and I still can't find it.
>
> How does the Roadini compare with the Roadeo:
>
> Tubing?
> Geometry?
>
> At just more than 1/3 of the Roadeo, it won't look as nice, but then all 
> the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better than many 
> of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 road frame 
> from Riv will look better than most on the road.
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> The Roadini frame and fork for $800.  That's an incredibly good price.  
>> And that new ball and socket seat lug!  Gotta have it.
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On S
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Patrick Moore]

Bill: where is all this info and display about the Roadini? I did too look,
and I still can't find it.

How does the Roadini compare with the Roadeo:

Tubing?
Geometry?

At just more than 1/3 of the Roadeo, it won't look as nice, but then all
the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better than many
of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 road frame
from Riv will look better than most on the road.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> The Roadini frame and fork for $800.  That's an incredibly good price.
> And that new ball and socket seat lug!  Gotta have it.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On S
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bill Lindsay]

The Roadini frame and fork for $800.  That's an incredibly good price.  And 
that new ball and socket seat lug!  Gotta have it.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 10:45:10 PM UTC-8, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> So far the plan is something like (by memory, I'm not at work) 
> 62-16
> 58-22
> 55-22
> 51-20
> 48-10   90 total
>
> From my point of view it should be easy to sell those, because if you WANT 
> a road bike the Roadini should stop you in your tracks...but I am not good 
> at those kinds of predictions. 
>
> I expect some will go to dealers, and we'll end up with about 60 bikes to 
> sell. I'm working on a flyer--attached. We'll start including this in 
> orders and put it online soon. It may have typos, but it's not final. 
>
> I expect this will be our only run of them. We have to be careful, we 
> can't afford to store bikes...and if it so happens that OUR customers don't 
> want this kind of bike, we aren't going to get any more of them, and lesson 
> learned. I'll get one myself--it's been years since I've had a road bike, 
> and I do come from there and don't hate them, and it IS my company and 
> all...and when, in the flyer, I talk about a prospective buyer who kinda 
> wants a road bike but can't or won't spend a lot of money on it and likes 
> variety--- it's entirely about me there--but there must be some others.
>
> To get to Ryan's question: If these sell well, we'll do one more run, and 
> if we can get commitments for six big-boy Roadini frames, we'll make ten of 
> them.
>
> The graphics are good. There are some neat things on it--it's far from a 
> generic cheap tig bike. Too early for geometry stuff. I have that, of 
> course, but basically it's a predictable Rivendell, and I hope that gives 
> some comfort to anybody who might worry. I didn't look up "contemporary 
> road bike frame geometry" and go from there. 
>
> That's all I can say about the Roadini until we get our samples. 
>
> On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Abcyclehank  > wrote:
>
>> Grant,
>> Will the Roadini come in a 68cm?  JK.  Thanks for all the great bike you 
>> have put out for us vertically challenged riders in the 100cm pbh range.  
>> You have provided a freedom, and returned that childlike existence to my 
>> riding career.  Forever indebted to you, your vision, and RBW as a whole.  
>> The staff and team you put together is amazing every one I have ever had 
>> the pleasure of dealing with.
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Ryan Hankinson
>> 68cm Atlantis
>> 68cm Custom
>> Future owner of
>> "Jumbo" large HHH
>> Will's Rosco Mountain Mixte
>>
>> p.s. I know those on the other side of the spectrum are just as happy as 
>> I.
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have done all-dayers (~80 miles on mixed terrain) on albatross bars. 
Enjoyment all the way - no issues whatsoever. Hoping to do a 100 mile day 
this year.

I haven't used it for multi-day long rides (i.e. touring use).

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 5:11:06 AM UTC, Matt B. wrote:
>
> +1 on drops being more comfortable on all day rides, especially multiple 
> consecutive all day rides.   And especially Noodles :)
>
>
> On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 9:21:15 PM UTC-5, RichS wrote:
>>
>> John, just my 2 cents but my Atlantis has drop bars and I've done all day 
>> rides with no problem as I'm sure other Atlantis owners in the group have 
>> too.
>>
>> My limited experience with upright bars (Albatross) leads me to believe 
>> doing an all dayer would not be as comfortable but YMMV.
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have Noodles on all my rides. The drops 
>> don't get much use but all the other locations do.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Hawrylak  wrote:
>>
>> Grant
>>
>> I agree with your points on JA vs Atlantis.  I remember the Top Tube Ruse 
>> article and Mutton Chop Marv.  Just 1 question:
>>
>> If you were riding 6 to 8 hours, would you take the JA with swept back 
>> bars and more upright position, or the Atlantis with drop bars even or 
>> slightly above saddle height?  Ignore any weight or tubing differences.  
>>
>> Thanks 
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>>>
>>> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Wayne Naha]

It's all about having the choice!  Joe Appaloosa may cover the same 
functional range of the Atlantis, but that's not the end of the story.  The 
Atlantis has a style and grace all it's own.  The Appaloosa has it's own, 
too, but different.  And that's the choice.  An embarrassment of riches, 
perhaps.  A good problem to have.

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:11:39 AM UTC-5, Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow 
Haus Bicycles wrote:
>
> Besides all the technical differencesthere's a *deep* and *abiding* 
> appreciation that I have a choice between a MUSA frame and import frame 
> with similar design considerations across the Riv spectrum.  RBW is beyond 
> unique in that respect.   
>
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>>
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>> Atlantis?
>>
>> Reid
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[John G.]

COSIGNED! I just recently purchased an Atlantis, and having a choice was a 
wonderful thing.

Also, everyone should just get an Atlantis. 

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:11:39 AM UTC-5, Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow 
Haus Bicycles wrote:
>
> Besides all the technical differencesthere's a *deep* and *abiding* 
> appreciation that I have a choice between a MUSA frame and import frame 
> with similar design considerations across the Riv spectrum.  RBW is beyond 
> unique in that respect.   
>
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>>
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>> Atlantis?
>>
>> Reid
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I had to check out the red to see. Red seems to be new--like, the 650B 
Hunqa sizes and the 65 Atlantis. That's another Venn diagram overlap 
functional problem. If we had room and money we could have bikes in stock 
all the time, all sizes and models -- kind of like what Surly's like, I 
imagine--or any other big bike company. Our way is to break ourselves and 
risk a lot on one run of bikes/frames after another, and hope for the best. 
It's probably good for the models, because we don't commit to things we're 
not fully behind, but it's bad in other ways---

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 2:27:17 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> Grant:
>
> While you're fielding questions, what is the significance of frame sizes 
> listed in red on the new geo charts?  I realize they are new, but does this 
> indicate they will be the only ones offered in the future, with the black 
> ones as historical references?
>
> Doug Peterson
>
> On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 1:24:58 PM UTC-8, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> On the tube top question---
>>
>> There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap 
>> is longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the 
>> higher bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and 
>> at the same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian 
>> man"). Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway 
>> — the original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, 
>> and when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, 
>> and now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for 
>> longer front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly 
>> thoughten about before they show up in steel!" 
>> But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from 
>> locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes 
>> aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good 
>> non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to 
>> ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other 
>> good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in 
>> front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room 
>> to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 
>> 3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.If we had to make only one bike, 
>> it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have 
>> about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest 
>> Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as 
>> any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper 
>> version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or 
>> Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Besides all the technical differencesthere's a *deep* and *abiding* 
appreciation that I have a choice between a MUSA frame and import frame 
with similar design considerations across the Riv spectrum.  RBW is beyond 
unique in that respect.   

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Matt B.]

+1 on drops being more comfortable on all day rides, especially multiple 
consecutive all day rides.   And especially Noodles :)


On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 9:21:15 PM UTC-5, RichS wrote:
>
> John, just my 2 cents but my Atlantis has drop bars and I've done all day 
> rides with no problem as I'm sure other Atlantis owners in the group have 
> too.
>
> My limited experience with upright bars (Albatross) leads me to believe 
> doing an all dayer would not be as comfortable but YMMV.
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have Noodles on all my rides. The drops don't 
> get much use but all the other locations do.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 5, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Hawrylak  > wrote:
>
> Grant
>
> I agree with your points on JA vs Atlantis.  I remember the Top Tube Ruse 
> article and Mutton Chop Marv.  Just 1 question:
>
> If you were riding 6 to 8 hours, would you take the JA with swept back 
> bars and more upright position, or the Atlantis with drop bars even or 
> slightly above saddle height?  Ignore any weight or tubing differences.  
>
> Thanks 
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>>
>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[R Shannon]

John, just my 2 cents but my Atlantis has drop bars and I've done all day rides 
with no problem as I'm sure other Atlantis owners in the group have too.

My limited experience with upright bars (Albatross) leads me to believe doing 
an all dayer would not be as comfortable but YMMV.

Full disclosure: I currently have Noodles on all my rides. The drops don't get 
much use but all the other locations do.

Regards,
Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 5, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Hawrylak  wrote:
> 
> Grant
> 
> I agree with your points on JA vs Atlantis.  I remember the Top Tube Ruse 
> article and Mutton Chop Marv.  Just 1 question:
> 
> If you were riding 6 to 8 hours, would you take the JA with swept back bars 
> and more upright position, or the Atlantis with drop bars even or slightly 
> above saddle height?  Ignore any weight or tubing differences. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>> 
> 
> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[John Hawrylak]

Grant

I agree with your points on JA vs Atlantis.  I remember the Top Tube Ruse 
article and Mutton Chop Marv.  Just 1 question:

If you were riding 6 to 8 hours, would you take the JA with swept back bars 
and more upright position, or the Atlantis with drop bars even or slightly 
above saddle height?  Ignore any weight or tubing differences.  

Thanks 

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Garth]

Yes, in regard to tt length I gotta say the addition of the stack and reach 
give a much clearer picture for comparing frames. I was surprised to see how 2 
seeminngly very different tt length frames could be so close in actual reach, 
so 3 cheers for the reach and stack listings☺ Really helpful to visualize. 

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[dougP]

Grant:

While you're fielding questions, what is the significance of frame sizes 
listed in red on the new geo charts?  I realize they are new, but does this 
indicate they will be the only ones offered in the future, with the black 
ones as historical references?

Doug Peterson

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 1:24:58 PM UTC-8, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> On the tube top question---
>
> There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap is 
> longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the higher 
> bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and at the 
> same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian man"). 
> Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway — the 
> original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, and 
> when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, and 
> now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for longer 
> front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly thoughten 
> about before they show up in steel!" 
> But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from 
> locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes 
> aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good 
> non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to 
> ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other 
> good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in 
> front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room 
> to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 
> 3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.If we had to make only one bike, 
> it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have 
> about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest 
> Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as 
> any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper 
> version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or 
> Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Abcyclehank]

Grant,
Will the Roadini come in a 68cm?  JK.  Thanks for all the great bike you have 
put out for us vertically challenged riders in the 100cm pbh range.  You have 
provided a freedom, and returned that childlike existence to my riding career.  
Forever indebted to you, your vision, and RBW as a whole.  The staff and team 
you put together is amazing every one I have ever had the pleasure of dealing 
with.

sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
68cm Atlantis
68cm Custom
Future owner of
"Jumbo" large HHH
Will's Rosco Mountain Mixte

p.s. I know those on the other side of the spectrum are just as happy as I.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On the tube top question---

There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap is 
longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the higher 
bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and at the 
same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian man"). 
Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway — the 
original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, and 
when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, and 
now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for longer 
front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly thoughten 
about before they show up in steel!" 
But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from 
locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes 
aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good 
non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to 
ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other 
good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in 
front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room 
to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 
3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.If we had to make only one bike, 
it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have 
about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest 
Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as 
any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper 
version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or 
Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bob Lovejoy]

I know the overall capability of the Atlantis and the Appaloosa is nearly 
the same, at least their design was aimed in the same direction.  That 
said, and referring to another thread here, the effective top tube on the 
JA is significantly longer than the effective TT on the Atlantis.  There is 
absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if you are going to use 
upswept/upright bars, the Appaloosa may be even be a better choice.  But... 
that long top tube on the Appa, advantageous as it might be for the 
backswept bars of choice, makes it problematic to go with drop bars, given 
average human dimensions anyway.

So, I guess my point is I definitely see them as two distinct bikes, though 
they may have the same goals, they approach those goals in some important 
and different ways.

And, if I could(!), I would have one of each yes I would.

Bob Lovejoy
Galesburg, IL

Just because I think it is one of the most righteous looking bikes I have 
ever seen... I refer you to "Jonathan's Appaloosa".  It is certainly bikes 
like this that will let you see the essence of Atlantis, newly 
interpreted...

http://theradavist.com/2016/03/jonathans-rivendell-joe-appaloosa-touring-bike/#16


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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant Petersen]

The 2017 Joe Ap forks are Atlantis-weight. The 2016s were between Sam and
Atl. Both are strong..

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Wayne Naha  wrote:

> From the Blug, on the premier of the Joe Appaloosa:
>
>
> If it’s “half Sam, half Hunqa,” howzit different than an Atlantis?
>
> Boy, that’s a good, tough question and the only way to answer it is with
> facts, so here they are:
>
> • Atlantis has a thicker/heavier duty fork. Even though we call the
> Atlantis a road-touring bike, too, the heavier fork make it a heavier duty
> bike. Good for an extra 60lbs or so.
>
>
> So, it's clear that the overlap between the Appaloosa and the Atlantis has
> been known all along, and the main functional distinction is that the
> Atlantis is a heavier duty bike.
> I have always thought that the Sam was a sort of lower cost analog of the
> Homer.  So it made sense to me to think of the Appaloosa as a lower cost
> analog of the Atlantis.  Not exactly the same in either case, but pretty
> close, and for almost half the price.
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>>
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the
>> Atlantis?
>>
>> Reid
>>
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Wayne Naha]

>From the Blug, on the premier of the Joe Appaloosa:


If it’s “half Sam, half Hunqa,” howzit different than an Atlantis?

Boy, that’s a good, tough question and the only way to answer it is with 
facts, so here they are:

• Atlantis has a thicker/heavier duty fork. Even though we call the 
Atlantis a road-touring bike, too, the heavier fork make it a heavier duty 
bike. Good for an extra 60lbs or so. 


So, it's clear that the overlap between the Appaloosa and the Atlantis has 
been known all along, and the main functional distinction is that the 
Atlantis is a heavier duty bike.
I have always thought that the Sam was a sort of lower cost analog of the 
Homer.  So it made sense to me to think of the Appaloosa as a lower cost 
analog of the Atlantis.  Not exactly the same in either case, but pretty 
close, and for almost half the price.


On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Atlantis won't go away forever and never for long and maybe not at all, 
and redundancy has been our calling card and anchor all along...because 
Rivendell bikes are all good for more than one thing. How is a good commute 
bike different than a good touring bike? You might have historical highbrow 
imagery of "classical touring bikes," but the bikes have the same 
requirements--strong wheels, a place to put a tent or milk, good handling 
with a load, and a comfortable position. You're more likely to pedal four 
hours (works both ways) on a tour than shopping, but isn't it then funny 
that most shopping bikes are more comfortable than most "classic" touring 
bikes, which tend to look better than they feel? 

There couldn't be more two overlapped bikes than the Atlantis and 
Appaloosa--as, like, platforms and performance and feel and all. Our 
direction has shifted only slightly, world-record slightly, in our history. 
The bars have come up a hair and the chainstays are inching longer and 
there's less reverence for the past and certain associations with 
properness and style than there used to be. I (personally, as opposed to 
all of RBW) have grown more haywire and feel less apart of the main bike 
industry than ever before, because (I think) I am I'm slightly suffering 
from being on a private high horse when it comes to questioning the motives 
of why this or that is happening, and not liking the answers. The bike 
MARKET is super crowded, and it leads to dozens of categoris and abberants 
and variety...and on one hand it's cool that bikes really can travel 
motorlessly over more terrain--that's one of the good things, although I'm 
not talking about eFat bikes penetrating the wilderness when i say 
"good"--but it also leads to overspecialization with too many categories, 
and then new riders go shopping and ask for bikes by category and not by 
this is how I'm gonna use it.

Am I off track here? What am I even addressing? Oh--Atlantis and Appaloosa. 
If the Appaloosa had Atlantis decals it wouldn't seem like a different 
bike. Longer stays is the big difference. There's not a quality difference, 
and they both ride well. The comparisons are inevitable and so I tried to 
address them, but the existence of the Appa doesn't make the Atlantis less 
or obsolete. Redundant for sure, but we have a lot of redundancy in our 
line. It's better than having less of it and a bunch of good-for-one-thing 
bikes, right?


On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[masmojo]

I originally built mine up with Albatross bars & it was great. I never 
considered drop bars, but I  am sure it's great with drops. I  like drop bars, 
but like a lot of people I rarely (if ever) ride in the drops! So to me it's 
sort of a waste, because I can still brake adequately most of the time while on 
the hoods, in a panic situation it's less than ideal. For this reason & because 
I ran my XO-1 with  moustache bars for 23 years I switched to Albastache bars. 
I don't imagine I'll be switching bars anymore, the Albastache on the Atlantis 
is a sweet combo.
I really love the squirtyness of the 26" wheels & the Albastache bars just 
accentuate how guickly you can jump up on the pedals to hit a gap in traffic or 
catch a traffic light before it turns, etc. Both things I loved about  my XO, 
but now with the Atlantis in a more refined, evolved package.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[RichS]

You've just about covered the field! What is the current bar? 

Thanks,
Richard

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 4:06:56 PM UTC-5, James Warren wrote:
>
>
> On my 15+ year old Atlantis I've had the following:
>
> Drops
> Mustache
> Bullmoose
> Straight mountain
> Bosco
> Albastache
> Albatross
> Bosco Bullmoose
>
> None were ditched due to lack of comfort. Most of the changing above was 
> for fun and curiosity. 
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 3, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Glen  wrote:
>
> This versatility is one big joy of the Atlantis, I have Noodle and 
> Albatross setups for mine and switch from time to time and it just works, 
> The Noodle with interrupter brake levers may be the best of both worlds. 
>
> On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:33:33 AM UTC-7, dougP wrote:
>>
>> Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a 
>> decade.  When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, 
>> using the same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues 
>> are long gone.  
>>
>> dougP
>>
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-8, Gossamer wrote:
>>>
>>> I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
>>> mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
>>> give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
>>> set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:

 Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
 appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
 I would use drop bars on this type of bike

 On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to 
> make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than 
> the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain 
> the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Bill Lindsay]

That is an EPIC habitual-bar-swapper!  APPROVE!

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 1:06:56 PM UTC-8, James Warren wrote:
>
>
> On my 15+ year old Atlantis I've had the following:
>
> Drops
> Mustache
> Bullmoose
> Straight mountain
> Bosco
> Albastache
> Albatross
> Bosco Bullmoose
>
> None were ditched due to lack of comfort. Most of the changing above was 
> for fun and curiosity. 
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 3, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Glen  wrote:
>
> This versatility is one big joy of the Atlantis, I have Noodle and 
> Albatross setups for mine and switch from time to time and it just works, 
> The Noodle with interrupter brake levers may be the best of both worlds. 
>
> On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:33:33 AM UTC-7, dougP wrote:
>>
>> Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a 
>> decade.  When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, 
>> using the same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues 
>> are long gone.  
>>
>> dougP
>>
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-8, Gossamer wrote:
>>>
>>> I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
>>> mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
>>> give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
>>> set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:

 Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
 appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
 I would use drop bars on this type of bike

 On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to 
> make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than 
> the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain 
> the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
> -- 
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[James Warren]

On my 15+ year old Atlantis I've had the following:

Drops
Mustache
Bullmoose
Straight mountain
Bosco
Albastache
Albatross
Bosco Bullmoose

None were ditched due to lack of comfort. Most of the changing above was for 
fun and curiosity. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 3, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Glen  wrote:
> 
> This versatility is one big joy of the Atlantis, I have Noodle and Albatross 
> setups for mine and switch from time to time and it just works, The Noodle 
> with interrupter brake levers may be the best of both worlds. 
> 
>> On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:33:33 AM UTC-7, dougP wrote:
>> Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a decade.  
>> When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, using the 
>> same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues are long 
>> gone.  
>> 
>> dougP
>> 
>>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-8, Gossamer wrote:
>>> I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
>>> mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
>>> give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
>>> set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)
>>> 
 On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:
 Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
 appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
 I would use drop bars on this type of bike
 
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
> 
> Reid
> 
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Joe Bernard]

I've used both (with different stems) on my Appaloosa, too. The Noodle was a 
bit of a stretch to the drops, but I rarely ride there; the hoods and flats 
positions were great. 

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Glen]

This versatility is one big joy of the Atlantis, I have Noodle and 
Albatross setups for mine and switch from time to time and it just works, 
The Noodle with interrupter brake levers may be the best of both worlds. 

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:33:33 AM UTC-7, dougP wrote:
>
> Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a 
> decade.  When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, 
> using the same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues 
> are long gone.  
>
> dougP
>
> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-8, Gossamer wrote:
>>
>> I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
>> mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
>> give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
>> set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)
>>
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:
>>>
>>> Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
>>> appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
>>> I would use drop bars on this type of bike
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:

 Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to 
 make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than 
 the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
 Atlantis?

 Reid



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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[dougP]

Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a decade.  
When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, using the 
same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues are long 
gone.  

dougP

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-8, Gossamer wrote:
>
> I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
> mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
> give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
> set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)
>
> On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:
>>
>> Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
>> appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
>> I would use drop bars on this type of bike
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>>>
>>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to 
>>> make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than 
>>> the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>>> Atlantis?
>>>
>>> Reid
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Will]

Indeed. 

I was juggling between a Hilson and a Hillborne. Then an Atlantis popped 
up. I'd been wanting big rubber for years. One test ride. Game over. 

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 11:48:21 AM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>
> I've ridden both & they are both great bikes and depending on size & use 
> an Appaloosa may be perfect for you. I very nearly bought one, but was 
> vasillating back and forth between that & a Hunqapillar. I was getting 
> tripped up on the sizing when the Atlantis I bought came available & I 
> realized it was exactly what I needed. I am so glad, because I was not even 
> considering Atlanti! Now I wonder what I was thinking! Yes, the fact that 
> The Atlantis comes in a wide variety of sizes means it will probably never 
> go away.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Gossamer]

I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling 
mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd 
give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be 
set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
> appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
> I would use drop bars on this type of bike
>
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>>
>> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
>> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
>> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
>> Atlantis?
>>
>> Reid
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Christopher Murray]

Of course they are redundant but they aren't the same. Look at the number of 
road racing bikes the big bike companies sell. Are they redundant? Yes but each 
is different enough to justify a separate model. The differences between them 
may appeal to one buyer or another. 

What's wrong with a little redundancy?

Cheers!
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Jim Bronson]

This is a Rivendell geek-out group having esoteric discussions about model
overlap.

The Atlantis marquee is a known quantity in touring bike circles, IMO.

For that reason it's important to keep it.

$0.02

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 11:48 AM, masmojo  wrote:

> I've ridden both & they are both great bikes and depending on size & use
> an Appaloosa may be perfect for you. I very nearly bought one, but was
> vasillating back and forth between that & a Hunqapillar. I was getting
> tripped up on the sizing when the Atlantis I bought came available & I
> realized it was exactly what I needed. I am so glad, because I was not even
> considering Atlanti! Now I wonder what I was thinking! Yes, the fact that
> The Atlantis comes in a wide variety of sizes means it will probably never
> go away.
>
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[masmojo]

I've ridden both & they are both great bikes and depending on size & use an 
Appaloosa may be perfect for you. I very nearly bought one, but was vasillating 
back and forth between that & a Hunqapillar. I was getting tripped up on the 
sizing when the Atlantis I bought came available & I realized it was exactly 
what I needed. I am so glad, because I was not even considering Atlanti! Now I 
wonder what I was thinking! Yes, the fact that The Atlantis comes in a wide 
variety of sizes means it will probably never go away.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Philip Kim]

Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an 
appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think 
I would use drop bars on this type of bike

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Check out this current thread which includes a discussion of Appaloosa vs 
Atlantis:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/SGTUAHh_npg

The take home messages for me are (1) your choice of handlebar is an 
important consideration in choosing between the two and (2) if you want an 
Atlantis then accept no substitute! The latter is a message I think many 
will echo.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I enjoyed that long description of the Joe on the Blug. A couple of 
favorite passages:


*If you go about riding thinking there’s nothing you shouldn’t be able to 
conquer, you’ll eventually wreck something; so don’t think it’s you vs 
terrain. ... The woods aren’t your gym and hiking isn’t failure, it’s just 
a way to rest your pedaling muscles, activate other ones, and slow down 
enough to look up and down and around.*

*Don’t save the Appaloosa for special rides just because it’s beautiful. If 
your heirs inherit a pristine bike they’ll figure you were a collector, and 
they’ll be afraid to ride perfect-condition pedal-bike, so they’ll sell it 
to a stranger.*
As someone who has done many estate sales and cleanouts, and otherwise gone 
through dead people's stuff, that last one resonates with me. Just 
yesterday, an auctioneer was dropping off loads of smalls, and I said man, 
I hope I get rid of all my crap so nobody has to go through it all. They'll 
just find me laying among a big pile of bicycles and bicycle parts. All 
well-used, of course.

As for redundancies and overlap, all Rivendells are going to have 
attributes that make them functional, versatile, and comfortable. The 
Rodeo, never mind the Joe or the Atlantis, is no doubt six times better and 
more capable than 92% of the bikes that traveled the countryside coast to 
coast in the 70s. I would say, given their take on bicycles, they've done a 
good job of keeping things fresh and exciting, even if the differences 
between models are sometimes a bit subtle. But a significantly lower price 
point is not subtle!

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

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